LPPan vs. P3

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LPPan vs. P3

Buck - k4ia
I am using the LPPan and am very happy with the  large screen, the
interface, etc.  I can also see the P3 being very  intriguing.  Perhaps they are two
versions of the same thing, maybe they  are meeting two different needs.  

I'd be interested in hearing some  comments from folks who have tried both.
 How do they compare?  I  don't think this is a question of which one is
"better" as "better" is going to  be defined by your operating style and
needs.  Just tell us how they're  different and what features of each you like or
not and why.

To start  off

LPPan                                             P3                        
                 
Dual core  computer                           No Computer  needed          
                 
High end sound  card                          No Sound card  needed        
                                   
Big  Screen                                        Little screen


k4ia
Craig "Buck"
Fredericksburg, Virginia
K3  #101  

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Re: LPPan vs. P3

John_N1JM
Or vs the SV/SDR-IQ combo that I use. Except for the PC difference, I'm not
sure there would be any advantage for my operating style. I like the big
screen.

John N1JM

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 12:54 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] LPPan vs. P3

I am using the LPPan and am very happy with the  large screen, the
interface, etc.  I can also see the P3 being very  intriguing.  Perhaps they
are two versions of the same thing, maybe they  are meeting two different
needs.  

I'd be interested in hearing some  comments from folks who have tried both.
 How do they compare?  I  don't think this is a question of which one is
"better" as "better" is going to  be defined by your operating style and
needs.  Just tell us how they're  different and what features of each you
like or not and why.

To start  off

LPPan                                             P3                        
                 
Dual core  computer                           No Computer  needed          
                 
High end sound  card                          No Sound card  needed        
                                   
Big  Screen                                        Little screen


k4ia
Craig "Buck"
Fredericksburg, Virginia
K3  #101  

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LPPan vs. P3 .. my experience

Don Ehrlich
In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia
I have been using LP_Pan and PowerSDR/IF software for over a year and am
very happy with the system
I love the big screen and the rig control features (It provides much of the
Flex radio functionability), the 'point and shoot' frequency control, etc.

I am a 'techie' retired engineer and have occassionally found it necessary
to solve various hookup and adjustment problems that were frustrating.
Putting together your own system with an LP-Pan, high quality sound card,
cables, and software (with attendent setup and adjustment requirements) is
not for the novice.  The result is very nice indeed but a P3 would be so
much easier and hassle-free.

The probability of additional features coming along for the P3 could very
well result in some very attractive advantages for the P3 that I am not yet
aware of.  I think this is a very important consideration.

Although other features of either system get a lot of attention I believe
the basic panadapter display is 99% of what is useful.  I have become so
spoiled by the ability to see a large band segment with a clear display of
all signals that I feel lost when without it.  Both the P3 and LP-Pan
provide this basic need and do it very well.

My 2 cents worth.

Don K7FJ

>I am using the LPPan and am very happy with the  large screen, the
> interface, etc.  I can also see the P3 being very  intriguing.  Perhaps
> they are two
> versions of the same thing, maybe they  are meeting two different needs.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing some  comments from folks who have tried
> both.
> How do they compare?  I  don't think this is a question of which one is
> "better" as "better" is going to  be defined by your operating style and
> needs.  Just tell us how they're  different and what features of each you
> like or
> not and why.
>
> To start  off
>
> LPPan                                             P3
>
> Dual core  computer                           No Computer  needed
>
> High end sound  card                          No Sound card  needed
>
> Big  Screen                                        Little screen
>
>
> k4ia
> Craig "Buck"
> Fredericksburg, Virginia
> K3  #101
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Re: LPPan vs. P3

Tony McClenny
In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia
Buck,

I too would like to hear from those with the experience to discuss both
units - good suggestion.  Thank you.

- Tony, N3ME -

118 Ashwood Street
Bethany Beach, DE 19930-9699
(302) 539-5638
Grid:  FM28lm
http://www.n3me.net
Elecraft K3 # 2462

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 19:54 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] LPPan vs. P3

I am using the LPPan and am very happy with the  large screen, the
interface, etc.  I can also see the P3 being very  intriguing.  Perhaps they
are two
versions of the same thing, maybe they  are meeting two different needs.  

I'd be interested in hearing some  comments from folks who have tried both.
 How do they compare?  I  don't think this is a question of which one is
"better" as "better" is going to  be defined by your operating style and
needs.  Just tell us how they're  different and what features of each you
like or
not and why.

To start  off

LPPan                                             P3                        
                 
Dual core  computer                           No Computer  needed          
                 
High end sound  card                          No Sound card  needed        
                                   
Big  Screen                                        Little screen


k4ia
Craig "Buck"
Fredericksburg, Virginia
K3  #101  

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Re: LPPan vs. P3

Bill W4ZV
In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia
The first two reviews below are by folks who also have used LP-PANs.  Any comparison to "LP-PAN" is meaningless unless you specify which software you're using with it (i.e. PowerSDR, Rocky, Skimmer, etc.)

http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/9146

BTW don't make your decision based solely on the display size...that's what the "External Display" cutout in the rear panel is probably for.  ;-)

I'm personally still undecided because I love Skimmer's waterfall for contesting (its Blind Mode is OK for unassisted).  However its does have some limitations that the P3 solves nicely.  I'll probably use both (which is possible since you can feed the P3's IF OUT to Skimmer with a 3 dB splitter loss) until I see how the P3 evolves.  One big limitation of Skimmer is that it only has a 24 kHz Span (in "IF on Softrock" mode which is what I use for the K3) versus the 200 kHz Span in the P3 (and which may eventually be increased).

73,  Bill
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Re: Panadapter experience...

John Ragle
In reply to this post by Don Ehrlich
     My experience with panadapters extends into the distant, dusty,
past, with Heathkit and earlier analog versions. They are indeed useful,
but  the coverage needed clearly depends upon the type of operation one
does...

     HF SSB ops probably want a much wider frequency coverage than CW
ops. I can't imagine wanting/needing anything like 200 kHz coverage when
operating 20 meter CW, especially when trying to unravel a pile-up.

     Digital modes (other than CW) probably want even less...PSK and
RTTY ops confine their  operations to relatively narrow band segments.
Lately my own operation has often been with PSK31/63 or one of the other
FLDIGI-supported digital modes. Typically I use either the panoramic
views provided by FLDIGI, or SpectraVue with my SignaLink-USB, and these
are quite adequate with the 2 to 5 kHz coverage they provide. I have
also used a PM-SDR with its antenna switching add-on and my high end
sound card (192k), which gives a much wider view of the band.

     When 6 meters is open, as it has been much of this summer, wider
coverage is needed. Typically USB operation is above 50.125 and CW
operation is below 50.100, and it would be nice to be able to keep an
eye spread across this whole part of the spectrum, since many operators
taking advantage of these openings use both voice and CW modes. For
similar reasons, wider coverage is desirable on VHF and UHF.

     To summarize, I believe that wide-band coverage is particularly
useful on 10 meters and higher (for obvious reasons). It seems to me it
adds little for HF use below 28 MHz, and probably is even a bit
distracting or disadvantageous. Thus the key factor one is looking for
is the ability to control the sampling rate/bandwidth, missing from
programs such as FLDIGI. PM-SDR and WinRad does provide this control,
but not in any very convenient way, and SpectraVue also has this
capability, but the P3 seems to provide it as well. The secondary
advantage (?) of the P3 is that it removes the computer from the set-up.
If one is running an old computer (inadequate shielding, slow sampling
rate in the sound card, etc) this may well be an important advantage.

John Ragle -- W1ZI


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Re: LPPan vs. P3

David Cutter
In reply to this post by Buck - k4ia
I cannot reference this, but I understand there is a difference in
sensitivity of the two systems, ie minimum discernable signal, so that
should be on your list; also dynamic range or do I mean third order
intercept?

Don't forget there are several panadaptors out there like Perseus and they
all have a price/performance ratio.

David
G3UNA


----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:53 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] LPPan vs. P3


>I am using the LPPan and am very happy with the  large screen, the
> interface, etc.  I can also see the P3 being very  intriguing.  Perhaps
> they are two
> versions of the same thing, maybe they  are meeting two different needs.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing some  comments from folks who have tried
> both.
> How do they compare?  I  don't think this is a question of which one is
> "better" as "better" is going to  be defined by your operating style and
> needs.  Just tell us how they're  different and what features of each you
> like or
> not and why.
>
> To start  off
>
> LPPan                                             P3
>
> Dual core  computer                           No Computer  needed
>
> High end sound  card                          No Sound card  needed
>
> Big  Screen                                        Little screen
>
>
> k4ia
> Craig "Buck"
> Fredericksburg, Virginia
> K3  #101
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 

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Re: LPPan vs. P3

Gary Gregory
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:21 AM, David Cutter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I cannot reference this, but I understand there is a difference in
> sensitivity of the two systems, ie minimum discernable signal, so that
> should be on your list; also dynamic range or do I mean third order
> intercept?
>
> Don't forget there are several panadaptors out there like Perseus and they
> all have a price/performance ratio.
>
> David
> G3UNA
>

Hi Folks,


> We have seen all these posts before when the P3 was first announced. Of
> great interest to a lot of us monitoring the reflector is real world
> comments from the new recipients of the P3 and any comparisons they may
> offer on the P3 vs after-market Pan Adapters.
>

I personally have not ventured into the pan-adapter field as I don't want to
use a PC for this purpose. I use my notebook for computer logging only when
operating casual and in contests. I think I can see the advantages of using
a pan-adapter but I would also want to monitor my TX/Tx audio in a waveform
such as the SM-220, again, without the need to use a PC based system.

The suggestion has been made to use the P3 with a plug-in keyboard to run
PSK31 and RTTY, again, this interests me greatly and I see the benefits of
such a system if and when it should become available.

I read also where the P3 will have an extended bandwidth at a later date and
in VK many 6M operators monitor 49.750 (Chinese TV) and 50.110 the
international Dx calling frequency and so an increase in bandwidth would be
a major carrot for those operators to aquire a P3.

Add all the above to the advantages of running field operations (a common
type of operation in VK) without a PC (some of us do paper logs for just Dx
operations) and the P3 will suit a lot of potential customers.

I base my assumption on the comments I have received from several K3 owners
in VK4 that have expressed their interest in the P3 but have decided to wait
awhile to see just what announcements Elecraft will make on any P3
improvements or added features.

I also understand that Elecraft's focus at the moment will be on getting the
current version of the P3 out in the field where they expect to hear back
from the owners on any shortcomings they feel the P3 has. It is these
individual customers that give feedback direct to Elecraft so that any
improvements or added features can be placed on a "list" to be worked
through as time permits.

Originally I felt a P3 was not for me, however I must admit that in the last
few days I have decided that I will most likely buy one when the picture is
a little bit clearer on the P3's future expansion.

Just my 2 cents worth....keep the change

Gary
VK4FD

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 8:53 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] LPPan vs. P3
>
>
> >I am using the LPPan and am very happy with the  large screen, the
> > interface, etc.  I can also see the P3 being very  intriguing.  Perhaps
> > they are two
> > versions of the same thing, maybe they  are meeting two different needs.
> >
> > I'd be interested in hearing some  comments from folks who have tried
> > both.
> > How do they compare?  I  don't think this is a question of which one is
> > "better" as "better" is going to  be defined by your operating style and
> > needs.  Just tell us how they're  different and what features of each you
> > like or
> > not and why.
> >
> > To start  off
> >
> > LPPan                                             P3
> >
> > Dual core  computer                           No Computer  needed
> >
> > High end sound  card                          No Sound card  needed
> >
> > Big  Screen                                        Little screen
> >
> >
> > k4ia
> > Craig "Buck"
> > Fredericksburg, Virginia
> > K3  #101
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>



--
Gary
VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
http://www.qsl.net/vk4fd/
K3 #679
For everything else there's Mastercard!!!
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Re: LPPan vs. P3

Scott Prather-2
In reply to this post by Tony McClenny
One aspect of the LP Pan/PowerSDR-IF combination that hasn't been mentioned
is that in addition to serving as a panadapter, PowerSDR-IF is a complete
receiver, totally independent of any settings on the K3 itself other than
the operating frequency. The LP Pan I/Q demodulator obtains its sample from
the K3's 1st IF, which is about 200 kHz wide. PowerSDR-IF includes filters,
AGC and demodulators (implemented in software) to support LSB, USB, AM,
Synchronous AM, etc. The AM audio quality is superior to that of the K3,
because there's no roofing filter in front of the demodulator. So if you are
looking for a second receiver to use with your K3 or are looking for the
ability to utilize a bandwidth far wider than what's possible with the K3
itself, the LP Pan/PowerSDR-IF combination will do that for you.

However, keep in mind that there's a cost associated with this flexibility,
namely that your PC must have a dual-core CPU to run PowerSDR-IF
successfully, and you'll need a high quality, wideband soundcard. Also, with
200 kHz bandwidth in front of the LP Pan I/Q demodulator, this greatly
increases the chances that the demodulator and/or the sound card will be
overloaded by very strong signals, creating serious intermodulation
distortion. Like any technical solutions, it has its pluses and minuses.

Scott
N7NB



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tony McClenny
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 1:40 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LPPan vs. P3

Buck,

I too would like to hear from those with the experience to discuss both
units - good suggestion.  Thank you.

- Tony, N3ME -

118 Ashwood Street
Bethany Beach, DE 19930-9699
(302) 539-5638
Grid:  FM28lm
http://www.n3me.net
Elecraft K3 # 2462

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 19:54 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] LPPan vs. P3

I am using the LPPan and am very happy with the  large screen, the
interface, etc.  I can also see the P3 being very  intriguing.  Perhaps they
are two
versions of the same thing, maybe they  are meeting two different needs.  

I'd be interested in hearing some  comments from folks who have tried both.
 How do they compare?  I  don't think this is a question of which one is
"better" as "better" is going to  be defined by your operating style and
needs.  Just tell us how they're  different and what features of each you
like or
not and why.

To start  off

LPPan                                             P3                        
                 
Dual core  computer                           No Computer  needed          
                 
High end sound  card                          No Sound card  needed        
                                   
Big  Screen                                        Little screen


k4ia
Craig "Buck"
Fredericksburg, Virginia
K3  #101  

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Re: LPPan vs. P3

Steve Ellington
I assume that an internal module will eventually available for the P3 which
will supply audio output and allow the P3 to be used as another receiver?
Steve
N4LQ

----- Original Message -----

"One aspect of the LP Pan/PowerSDR-IF combination that hasn't been mentioned
is that in addition to serving as a panadapter, PowerSDR-IF is a complete
receiver, /donate.html

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Re: LPPan vs. P3

Jack Brabham KZ5A
In reply to this post by Scott Prather-2
  I purchased LP-PAN with PowerSDR/IF at the same time as my K3 and have
enjoyed using them together a great deal.  The pan-adapter is really
useful and its biggest shortcoming seems to be lack of a high resolution
zoom.  The 2nd RX is much much better than I expected and is well
integrated with the K3, tunes with the "B" knob, does "A/B" swaps,
listen to both sides of a split pileup, etc.   The 2nd RX's biggest
limitation is being constrained to use within the pan-adapter's
frequency view.

My original thought was to use PowerSDR/IF as a relatively inexpensive
way to evaluate the utility of the pan-adapter with a second receiver
for SSB contesting.   There's not much doubt about the utility of a
second RX but I've never had a serious pan-adapter and didn't really
know how well they would play together.    For me, it works well enough
that I expect to add the P3 and the  second RX to the K3 somewhere down
the road, but that's about a 2 grand upgrade and my station has more
pressing needs currently (like more/better antennas).

Also given the high degree of utility I'm getting from the $300 LP-PAN
PowerSDR/IF setup I'm content to wait until the P3 has gone through some
software teething, the inevitable hardware upgrades, and has had some of
those intriguing holes on the back panel filled..... or Xmas, which ever
comes first.

I can't make any informed comparisons with the P3, not having never seen
one in the flesh, but relative to the PowerSDR/IF pan-adapter my
reservations are mainly with the relatively small screen/low resolution
and the absence of "point and click QSY" via the PC mouse (PC integration).

In terms of one pan-adapter vs the other, as I understand the current
levels of functionality, I think I would prefer the PowerSDR/IF
pan-adapter, mainly for the larger screen size, although the high
resolution zoom of the P3 would be very useful in many situations.

Seems like  the best answer to one vs the other would be BOTH.   One
could use PowerSDR/IF in full screen, full width mode for point and
click QSY and band searching and use the P3 in reduced bandwidth mode to
get a higher resolution view of the immediate band area.   That would
take good advantage of the strengths of each and I don't see any reason
why they wouldn't play together well.

It will be interesting to see how the future "P3 external monitor" is
implemented.   If it is merely a hardware Video output the display size
will be larger (to suit) and presumably the screen resolution will be
increased proportionately which will be a major enhancement.   However
if it turns out to be a "P3 Utility" type PC program the possibilities
are much greater, potentially including things like, monitor sharing,  
resizing,  "point and click QSY", and integration with logging program
band maps.

I have to concur with the comments about PowerSDR/IF being a PC resource
hog.   My station PC is a AMD 5400+ dual 64 bit machine running Win7-64
with three monitors.  I usually run PowerSDR/IF full screen on its own
1680x1050 22 inch display.    This single program utilizes around 50% of
the available CPU cycles on my machine in this mode and that is with
having done some tweaks to PowerSDR/IF to reduce the CPU load.   You can
reduce the CPU load further by shrinking the display (less pixels) but
my old eyes like it better full screen.   I'm going the other way with a
planned upgrade to a 6400+ CPU.

I suspect that when I have the 2nd RX in the K3 and a P3 with some
flavor of external display and PC integration, the LP-PAN PowerSDR/IF
setup will become redundant and be retired.   .....Or  I might find that
I "need" two pan-adapters and 3 RXs.....Hi Hi




73 Jack KZ5A


On 8/6/2010 1:07 AM, Scott Prather wrote:

> One aspect of the LP Pan/PowerSDR-IF combination that hasn't been mentioned
> is that in addition to serving as a panadapter, PowerSDR-IF is a complete
> receiver, totally independent of any settings on the K3 itself other than
> the operating frequency. The LP Pan I/Q demodulator obtains its sample from
> the K3's 1st IF, which is about 200 kHz wide. PowerSDR-IF includes filters,
> AGC and demodulators (implemented in software) to support LSB, USB, AM,
> Synchronous AM, etc. The AM audio quality is superior to that of the K3,
> because there's no roofing filter in front of the demodulator. So if you are
> looking for a second receiver to use with your K3 or are looking for the
> ability to utilize a bandwidth far wider than what's possible with the K3
> itself, the LP Pan/PowerSDR-IF combination will do that for you.
>
> However, keep in mind that there's a cost associated with this flexibility,
> namely that your PC must have a dual-core CPU to run PowerSDR-IF
> successfully, and you'll need a high quality, wideband soundcard. Also, with
> 200 kHz bandwidth in front of the LP Pan I/Q demodulator, this greatly
> increases the chances that the demodulator and/or the sound card will be
> overloaded by very strong signals, creating serious intermodulation
> distortion. Like any technical solutions, it has its pluses and minuses.
>
> Scott
> N7NB
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tony McClenny
> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 1:40 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] LPPan vs. P3
>
> Buck,
>
> I too would like to hear from those with the experience to discuss both
> units - good suggestion.  Thank you.
>
> - Tony, N3ME -
>
> 118 Ashwood Street
> Bethany Beach, DE 19930-9699
> (302) 539-5638
> Grid:  FM28lm
> http://www.n3me.net
> Elecraft K3 # 2462
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2010 19:54 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] LPPan vs. P3
>
> I am using the LPPan and am very happy with the  large screen, the
> interface, etc.  I can also see the P3 being very  intriguing.  Perhaps they
> are two
> versions of the same thing, maybe they  are meeting two different needs.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing some  comments from folks who have tried both.
>   How do they compare?  I  don't think this is a question of which one is
> "better" as "better" is going to  be defined by your operating style and
> needs.  Just tell us how they're  different and what features of each you
> like or
> not and why.
>
> To start  off
>
> LPPan                                             P3
>
> Dual core  computer                           No Computer  needed
>
> High end sound  card                          No Sound card  needed
>
> Big  Screen                                        Little screen
>
>
> k4ia
> Craig "Buck"
> Fredericksburg, Virginia
> K3  #101
>
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Re: LPPan vs. P3

N8LP
Hi Jack. I do agree that having resolution change with width like the P3 would be nice, although I normally spend my time looking at wider spans, and not narrow spans like 3kHz. I run MixW at the same time as PowerSDR/IF when I need the higher resolution bandwidth for 3kHz display width. This allows me to see two spans at the same time, like 192kHz and 3kHz. With a 22" monitor (1920x1200), there is plenty of room for multiple pans ;-)

As far as the external monitor goes, your points are well taken. I don't think a program that displays the pan data would be practical without a higher speed interface, like USB. I think I read that the video output jack is for a VGA monitor. I don't know if that literally means 640x480, or something higher. Even at that modest resolution, though, it would take more than twice the processing horsepower of the built-in display.

73,
Larry N8LP