Long wire antennas
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The most important thing for a radio is a counter poise long enough for 1/4
of the frequency in use. For many of you before you were born I was in Africa and had a 700 foot longwire between to poles, huge sag between, L network and a 100 foot counterpoise. Never required much tuning on the longwire between 20/15/10 just a touch with a cheap swr bridge to measure then back to the op position. So I write this to say to all use as much wire as you can for the antenna connected to your little radio and a counterpoise as long. If your KX3 or 2 has the built in ATU so much the better. COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always. N2WL ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Hope you were saying that tongue in cheek because it's patently false. Dave AB7E On 1/10/2018 6:28 PM, William Levy wrote: > > COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always. > > N2WL ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill Levy
And in a previous posting Sir William of Levy stated:
"COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always." Hear....Hear!!!!! Dilly, Dilly!!!! Right arm, dude!!!! Vy 73 es gud DX! Rich Arland K7SZ Cogito ergo CQ (I think therefore, I HAM) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill Levy
Ron,
What you've come to understand is absolutely false except for the special case of a long wire close to the ground. That special case is called a Beverage antenna that radiates vertically polarized radiation off the ends. When you raise a long wire antenna more than about 0.05 wavelengths above the ground, horizontal polarized radiation becomes dominant and the radiation pattern always has a deep null off the ends. 73 Frank W3LPL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 4:08:40 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas Understand that a true "long wire" (greater than 1 wavelength) starts to be directional off of its end (if fed at one end, that's the opposite end). 73, Ron AC7AC -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rich Arland Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 6:02 PM To: William Levy; Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas And in a previous posting Sir William of Levy stated: "COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always." Hear....Hear!!!!! Dilly, Dilly!!!! Right arm, dude!!!! Vy 73 es gud DX! Rich Arland K7SZ Cogito ergo CQ (I think therefore, I HAM) ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Frank and all,
While it is true that radiation off the end of a long wire is a deep null, The maximum radiation will be at an angle to the wire greater than 1/2 wavelength (less than 90 degrees). That angle will depend on the length relative to wavelength. A look at the radiation pattern of long wires and other Traveling Wave antennas will reveal that fact. The rhombic antenna and V-beams use that characteristic for their gain and directionality. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/10/2018 11:40 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Ron, > > > What you've come to understand is absolutely false except for the > special case of a long wire close to the ground. That special case > is called a Beverage antenna that radiates vertically polarized > radiation off the ends. > > > When you raise a long wire antenna more than about 0.05 wavelengths > above the ground, horizontal polarized radiation becomes dominant > and the radiation pattern always has a deep null off the ends. > > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]> > To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 4:08:40 AM > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas > > Understand that a true "long wire" (greater than 1 wavelength) starts to be > directional off of its end (if fed at one end, that's the opposite end). > > 73, Ron AC7AC Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill Levy
Not sure I believe this, lets say a 40 meter dipole, and an 80 meter
dipole-- the 40 dipole works far better on 40, than the 80 meter works on 40, so not always is more wire better. Now if you are talking long wire, and forgot to state that, I am not sure, I'd have to get the modeling software out... 73s and thanks, Dave NK7Z http://www.nk7z.net On 01/10/2018 05:28 PM, William Levy wrote: > COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm
Hi Don,
Of course you're exactly correct. The peak horizontally polarized radiation with respect to the axis of a long wire steadily decreases from 90 degrees for a 1/2 wavelength or shorter wire to about 50 degrees for a 1 wavelength wire, then very slowly decreases to 35 degrees for 2 wavelengths, 30 degrees for 3 wavelengths, 25 degrees for 4 wavelengths, etc. As the length of the wire increases, the direction of the main lobe for horizontal polarization more closely approaches the direction of the wire but in never gets closer than 15-18 degrees from the end of the wire for any practical wire length. There's always a deep null off the end of the wire for horizontal polarization no matter how long the wire is. If a long wire antenna is carefully designed and constructed to carry a pure travelling wave, the angle of the main lobe does NOT change relative to a classic long wire antenna; however, the amplitudes of the successive lobes can be greatly suppressed in a very carefully engineered antenna. Its extremely difficult to achieve travelling wave performance in a long wire antenna except for a few special cases: - a long wire with a resistive termination connected to a 1/4 wavelength termination wire, - a terminated rhombic antenna, - a Beverage antenna close to the ground, and - a resistively terminated vertically polarized half-rhombic antenna (sometimes referred to as an inverted-V antenna in professional antenna engineering circles). 73 Frank W3LPL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]> To: [hidden email] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 5:09:04 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas Frank and all, While it is true that radiation off the end of a long wire is a deep null, The maximum radiation will be at an angle to the wire greater than 1/2 wavelength (less than 90 degrees). That angle will depend on the length relative to wavelength. A look at the radiation pattern of long wires and other Traveling Wave antennas will reveal that fact. The rhombic antenna and V-beams use that characteristic for their gain and directionality. 73, Don W3FPR On 1/10/2018 11:40 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Ron, > > > What you've come to understand is absolutely false except for the > special case of a long wire close to the ground. That special case > is called a Beverage antenna that radiates vertically polarized > radiation off the ends. > > > When you raise a long wire antenna more than about 0.05 wavelengths > above the ground, horizontal polarized radiation becomes dominant > and the radiation pattern always has a deep null off the ends. > > > 73 > Frank > W3LPL > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]> > To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 4:08:40 AM > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas > > Understand that a true "long wire" (greater than 1 wavelength) starts to be > directional off of its end (if fed at one end, that's the opposite end). > > 73, Ron AC7AC Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by donovanf
I'm not sure this is correct.
I stumbled over a 6M opening on New Years Eve. I managed a FT8 QSO with VE2XK - FN07 (LotW verified) from California = CM97, using my K3 with the internal tuner at 100W into a 160M center fed dipole at about 36 feet. I became curious about the pattern with this antenna on 6M so I ran a quick cocoaNEC model. It shows lots of spikes with a major lobe along the length of the wire with about 20 degrees elevation. That lobe was well aimed for the contact, as my 160M dipole runs close to east/west. 73 Bill AE6JV On 1/10/18 at 8:40 PM, [hidden email] wrote: >When you raise a long wire antenna more than about 0.05 >wavelengths above the ground, horizontal polarized radiation >becomes dominant and the radiation pattern always has a deep >null off the ends. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | Since the IBM Selectric, keyboards have gotten 408-356-8506 | steadily worse. Now we have touchscreen keyboards. www.pwpconsult.com | Can we make something even worse? ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by NK7Z
In my small lot, I can’t even put up a short wire! If I had the space to put up a long wire, I would put up a tower instead.
Ralph AA5YC > On Jan 11, 2018, at 12:22 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote: > > A longer wire produces sharper lobes and, taken to an extreme, the pattern > breaks into multiple lobes. So it all depends upon whether the other station > is aligned with one of the lobes. > > 73, Ron AC7AC > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>] On Behalf Of Dave Cole (NK7Z) > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:11 PM > To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas > > Not sure I believe this, lets say a 40 meter dipole, and an 80 meter > dipole-- the 40 dipole works far better on 40, than the 80 meter works on > 40, so not always is more wire better. > > Now if you are talking long wire, and forgot to state that, I am not sure, > I'd have to get the modeling software out... > > 73s and thanks, > Dave > NK7Z > http://www.nk7z.net > > On 01/10/2018 05:28 PM, William Levy wrote: > >> COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message > delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> > Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net <http://www.qsl.net/> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> > Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by NK7Z
That axiom was probably true back when the only operation was on low
frequency bands where a full sized ½λ antenna was quite impractical. 73, Charlie k3ICH -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole (NK7Z) Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 12:11 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas Not sure I believe this, lets say a 40 meter dipole, and an 80 meter dipole-- the 40 dipole works far better on 40, than the 80 meter works on 40, so not always is more wire better. Now if you are talking long wire, and forgot to state that, I am not sure, I'd have to get the modeling software out... 73s and thanks, Dave NK7Z http://www.nk7z.net On 01/10/2018 05:28 PM, William Levy wrote: > COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Plus the fact, the longer the wire, the more the radiation pattern
approaches the wire axis. Thus one will gain some along the axis direction and loose in other directions. There is no free lunch. "long" here means >a few wavelengths. 73 de Brian/K3KO On 1/11/2018 13:50 PM, Charlie T wrote: > That axiom was probably true back when the only operation was on low > frequency bands where a full sized ½λ antenna was quite impractical. > > 73, Charlie k3ICH > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole (NK7Z) > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 12:11 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas > > Not sure I believe this, lets say a 40 meter dipole, and an 80 meter > dipole-- the 40 dipole works far better on 40, than the 80 meter works on > 40, so not always is more wire better. > > Now if you are talking long wire, and forgot to state that, I am not sure, > I'd have to get the modeling software out... > > 73s and thanks, > Dave > NK7Z > http://www.nk7z.net > > On 01/10/2018 05:28 PM, William Levy wrote: > >> COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message > delivered to [hidden email] > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > http://www.avg.com > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill Levy
Dang, I missed the fight! ;)
73 de KX2CW . . Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra, said Piglet. Shaka, when the walls fell, said Pooh. > On Jan 10, 2018, at 22:22, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote: > > A longer wire produces sharper lobes and, taken to an extreme, the pattern > breaks into multiple lobes. So it all depends upon whether the other station > is aligned with one of the lobes. > > 73, Ron AC7AC > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Cole (NK7Z) > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2018 9:11 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas > > Not sure I believe this, lets say a 40 meter dipole, and an 80 meter > dipole-- the 40 dipole works far better on 40, than the 80 meter works on > 40, so not always is more wire better. > > Now if you are talking long wire, and forgot to state that, I am not sure, > I'd have to get the modeling software out... > > 73s and thanks, > Dave > NK7Z > http://www.nk7z.net > >> On 01/10/2018 05:28 PM, William Levy wrote: >> >> COSMIC rule of antennas! The more wire the better. Always. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message > delivered to [hidden email] > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Bill Levy
Ah, he quotes Picard and the Tao of Pooh for his purpose.
But that was all in the process of forming bonds . . . and as we all know, saying bonding on this refelctor will open a torrent of additional debate. Ted, KN1CBR ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2018 19:40:53 -0800 From: Joan <[hidden email]> To: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Long wire antennas Message-ID: <[hidden email]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dang, I missed the fight! ;) 73 de KX2CW . . Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra, said Piglet. Shaka, when the walls fell, said Pooh. > On Jan 10, 2018, at 22:22, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote: > > A longer wire produces sharper lobes and, taken to an extreme, the pattern > breaks into multiple lobes. So it all depends upon whether the other station > is aligned with one of the lobes. > > 73, Ron AC7AC > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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