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MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

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ve3dvy

MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

I have dabbled a bit with RTTY mostly with the Centenial and some DX
but this past weekend I thought Ill give the CQWW-RTTY a try. spent a
little time and got things working using N1MM and MMVARI using DATA-A
relying on the P3 for waterfall display. It seems I got bitten by the
RTTY contest bug because I loved it. So here is the question to the
serious RTTY contester. what is the ideal setup. is MMTTY and DATA-A
best or should I interface for fsk. and is MMTTY the best option here?
and more important what is the best way to do this both from software
and hardware setup.

--
David Moes
President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
[hidden email]
VE3DVY, VE3SD

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

David,

Actually, MMTTY and data sub-mode AFSK-A on the K3 will give you the
best transmitter IMD. With MMTTY, you would tune with the K3 VFO rather
than clicking on a waterfall display - this is a computer soundcard
application of MMTTY.

If you prefer to click on a waterfall display, then an application other
than MMTTY should be used.

Yes, you can do FSK-D with MMTTY, and that requires a "one transistor
interface" to drive the K3 ACC connector pin 1. Some prefer that
approach because it avoids setting the soundcard levels correctly for
transmit. The choice is yours to make.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/1/2014 10:06 PM, david Moes wrote:

> I have dabbled a bit with RTTY mostly with the Centenial and some DX
> but this past weekend I thought Ill give the CQWW-RTTY a try. spent a
> little time and got things working using N1MM and MMVARI using DATA-A
> relying on the P3 for waterfall display. It seems I got bitten by
> the RTTY contest bug because I loved it. So here is the question to
> the serious RTTY contester. what is the ideal setup. is MMTTY and
> DATA-A best or should I interface for fsk. and is MMTTY the best
> option here? and more important what is the best way to do this both
> from software and hardware setup.
>

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Jim Brown-10

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by ve3dvy

On Wed,10/1/2014 7:06 PM, david Moes wrote:
> So here is the question to the serious RTTY contester. what is the
> ideal setup.

Most contes.ters use MMTTY. Some swear by FSK, some like AFSK. For FSK,
use FSK-D. For AFSK, use AFSK-A. AFSK has always used LSB, while other
digital modes use USB. The two popular logging programs are N1MM (Free,
excellent) and WriteLog (Not Free). I use N1MM and AFSK, and use VOX for
PTT.

N1MM has the capability to open additional decoding windows, each of
which can be optimized for different forms of distortion caused by
propagation. Most of us use a program called 2Tone for those additional
windows. We use the additional windows because sometimes the decoders
miss one or more characters, but if you're running multiple decoders,
there's a good chance that at least one of them will copy the exchange
and you won't need to ask for a repeat.

Google to find MMTTY. 2Tone is distributed on the email reflector for
N1MM Digital. Both are free.

There's an applications note here

http://k9yc.com/USB_Interfaces.pdf

that talks about some good USB audio interfaces and setting levels to
produce a clean signal.

73, Jim K9YC
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ve3dvy

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Thanks Don so it seems I was doing the right thing I did start with
MMVARI then went to MMTTY both AFSK A I misspoke in the original post
saying DATA-A but meant AFSK-A so it seems I am on the right track I
find tuning with the VFO and watching the markers on the P3 the
easiest I dont like tuning with the mouse.

David Moes
President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
[hidden email]
VE3DVY, VE3SD

On 10/1/2014 22:31, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> David,
>
> Actually, MMTTY and data sub-mode AFSK-A on the K3 will give you the
> best transmitter IMD. With MMTTY, you would tune with the K3 VFO
> rather than clicking on a waterfall display - this is a computer
> soundcard application of MMTTY.
>
> If you prefer to click on a waterfall display, then an application
> other than MMTTY should be used.
>
> Yes, you can do FSK-D with MMTTY, and that requires a "one transistor
> interface" to drive the K3 ACC connector pin 1. Some prefer that
> approach because it avoids setting the soundcard levels correctly for
> transmit. The choice is yours to make.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/1/2014 10:06 PM, david Moes wrote:
>> I have dabbled a bit with RTTY mostly with the Centenial and some DX
>> but this past weekend I thought Ill give the CQWW-RTTY a try. spent
>> a little time and got things working using N1MM and MMVARI using
>> DATA-A relying on the P3 for waterfall display. It seems I got
>> bitten by the RTTY contest bug because I loved it. So here is the
>> question to the serious RTTY contester. what is the ideal setup.
>> is MMTTY and DATA-A best or should I interface for fsk. and is MMTTY
>> the best option here? and more important what is the best way to do
>> this both from software and hardware setup.
>>
>
>

k6dgw

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by ve3dvy

On 10/1/2014 7:06 PM, david Moes wrote:

> I have dabbled a bit with RTTY mostly with the Centenial and some DX but
> this past weekend I thought Ill give the CQWW-RTTY a try. spent a
> little time and got things working using N1MM and MMVARI using DATA-A
> relying on the P3 for waterfall display. It seems I got bitten by the
> RTTY contest bug because I loved it. So here is the question to the
> serious RTTY contester. what is the ideal setup. is MMTTY and DATA-A
> best or should I interface for fsk. and is MMTTY the best option here?
> and more important what is the best way to do this both from software
> and hardware setup.
>

There are as many answers as there are people on this list, David. I
run minimalist for 295 Q's in the RTTY this last weekend in about 7 hrs
of operation. Two Radio Shack stereo cables, computer line out goes to
K3 line in, K3 line out goes to computer line in, I run N1MM and MMTTY.
I did finally put a 10 dB audio pad in the cable to the computer line
in, the K3 was a little hot for it, but it worked fine without the pad
too, just a tad touchy. VOX keys the K3.

With a K3 and its incredibly clean audio, AFSK and direct FSK are
essentially indistinguishable if your sound card is clean, and most are
these days ... you can get really good ones, see K9YC's website --
audiosystemsgroup.com

There are many who use various interfaces -- SignalLink, Microham, and
others, and those who use direct FSK, it seems like a lot of questions
arise with this extra hardware, but I've never used any of it so I'm not
the guy to expound on them, I've just never needed them and they were
more software running on my logging computer.

One thing with N1MM ... be sure to define your RTTY macro file to it for
each contest so it knows which macros to load. And a few tips, take as
you wish.

Start every transmission with {TX}{ENTER}TEXT and follow the text by one
space and {RX}.

The {ENTER} starts you on his next line, clear of any garbage he's
printed before you answered or called. The space at the end of your
transmission clears you of the noise he's going to print as soon as your
MARK goes away.

Following the text with more line feeds causes your text to jump up in
his window [not on Writelog, AFIK], and makes it hard to click on your call.

RTTY being auto-decoded, it's a really good idea if you are running, to
make your exchange: DL6XX 599 03 CA DL6XX. He probably knows who and
where you are, he called you, but he may not know that he's the guy you
responded to. By that time, the pile and QRM may have subsided. I put
my own call at the end of S&P exchanges again, just to make sure he got
it right. Others don't which is OK too.

Keep in mind that the 5-unit Baudot code has 32 possible combinations,
not enough for all the alphabet, numbers and punctuation. Sending "5NN
03 CA" adds two additional characters -- a LTRS in the signal report,
and a FIGS to get to the zone. Same for punctuation. Since we're all
running at the exact same code speed, adding function characters isn't
going to improve rate. :-)

I'd start minimalist if you can, and then decide if you need additional
interface hardware.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
- www.cqp.org

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Jim Brown-10

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

On Wed,10/1/2014 7:47 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>
>
> Start every transmission with {TX}{ENTER}TEXT and follow the text by
> one space and {RX}.

What Fred means is that TEXT is what you want to send with that F-key. :)

> The {ENTER} starts you on his next line, clear of any garbage he's
> printed before you answered or called. The space at the end of your
> transmission clears you of the noise he's going to print as soon as
> your MARK goes away.

I really hate Line Feeds (the ENTER). Especially when you're running
several decode windows, they must be pretty small, and a few Line Feeds
will scroll too much stuff out of the window! What I like much better is
a leading space and a trailing space for every F-Key message. Those
spaces are enough to separate your call and exchange from whatever other
stuff is on the screen, because N1MM and WriteLog will highlight calls.
And if that space is there, you can click on the call (and parts of the
exchange), which will copy them to the data entry window!

I agree with all of Fred's other advice, except that when I'm running, I
send the other guy's call again at the end of the exchange if I think
there is QRM, or if I doubled with him because he sent his call again
after I had begun responding. Also, in S&P, I send nothing but the
exchange UNLESS I think he mis-copied my call, in which case I'll send
it again, twice, then send the exchange.

One of the rules of contesting (and DXing) is NEVER send something the
other guy has already gotten right. That can be tricky to know with
RTTY, because decoders often make mistakes on calls. In contesting, if
he gets your call wrong, HE loses points but you do not. And it's good
sportsmanship to try to correct him.

73, Jim K9YC
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

> I really hate Line Feeds (the ENTER). Especially when you're running
> several decode windows, they must be pretty small, and a few Line
> Feeds will scroll too much stuff out of the window! What I like much
> better is a leading space and a trailing space for every F-Key
> message. Those spaces are enough to separate your call and exchange
> from whatever other stuff is on the screen, because N1MM and WriteLog
> will highlight calls. And if that space is there, you can click on
> the call (and parts of the exchange), which will copy them to the
> data entry window!

While I dislike those who use multiple Line Feeds, I absolutely despise
those who do not start their transmission with *one* Line Feed. Without
the linefeed, the cursor is not returned to be start of the line and
the call gets buried in the garble (decoded noise) somewhere toward the
end of the line. The call decoding/highlighting routines in N1MM and
WriteLog are good but they do have their peculiarities ... and will
either highlight more than the call or will only highlight calls in the
"known calls" file - which means they will miss new contesters, those
just working a few stations/new DX, or those who do not submit logs on
a regular basis.

By starting each transmission with {ENTER} the call is almost always
in the first dozen or so spaces on the bottom line of the decode window
and each to "click" if one is using a mouse or right in the center if
view if one is working from the keyboard.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-10-01 11:36 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Wed,10/1/2014 7:47 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>
>>
>> Start every transmission with {TX}{ENTER}TEXT and follow the text by
>> one space and {RX}.
>
> What Fred means is that TEXT is what you want to send with that F-key. :)
>
>> The {ENTER} starts you on his next line, clear of any garbage he's
>> printed before you answered or called. The space at the end of your
>> transmission clears you of the noise he's going to print as soon as
>> your MARK goes away.
>
> I really hate Line Feeds (the ENTER). Especially when you're running
> several decode windows, they must be pretty small, and a few Line Feeds
> will scroll too much stuff out of the window! What I like much better is
> a leading space and a trailing space for every F-Key message. Those
> spaces are enough to separate your call and exchange from whatever other
> stuff is on the screen, because N1MM and WriteLog will highlight calls.
> And if that space is there, you can click on the call (and parts of the
> exchange), which will copy them to the data entry window!
>
> I agree with all of Fred's other advice, except that when I'm running, I
> send the other guy's call again at the end of the exchange if I think
> there is QRM, or if I doubled with him because he sent his call again
> after I had begun responding. Also, in S&P, I send nothing but the
> exchange UNLESS I think he mis-copied my call, in which case I'll send
> it again, twice, then send the exchange.
>
> One of the rules of contesting (and DXing) is NEVER send something the
> other guy has already gotten right. That can be tricky to know with
> RTTY, because decoders often make mistakes on calls. In contesting, if
> he gets your call wrong, HE loses points but you do not. And it's good
> sportsmanship to try to correct him.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Dave Zeph

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by ve3dvy

To give equal time to other equally good logging software, I run my K3 in
D-FSK via a homebrew LED Isolator Interface with Win-Test (not free) plus
MMTTY, or DXLog (free at www.dxlog.net) with both MMTTY and 2Tone.

73 --> Dave, W9PA

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of david
Moes
Sent: Wednesday, 01 October, 2014 22:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

I have dabbled a bit with RTTY mostly with the Centenial and some DX
but this past weekend I thought Ill give the CQWW-RTTY a try. spent a
little time and got things working using N1MM and MMVARI using DATA-A
relying on the P3 for waterfall display. It seems I got bitten by the
RTTY contest bug because I loved it. So here is the question to the
serious RTTY contester. what is the ideal setup. is MMTTY and DATA-A
best or should I interface for fsk. and is MMTTY the best option here?
and more important what is the best way to do this both from software
and hardware setup.

--
David Moes
President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
[hidden email]
VE3DVY, VE3SD

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ve3dvy

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by ve3dvy

Thanks everyone for the advice. sounds like I was well on the right
track. I just wasn't sure if I should go with FSK seems I don't need
to. I have seen references to using multiple decode screens and was
on the research list glad you mentioned it Jim. I have a good
dedicated sound card for AFSK and have been using it for a long time
for other digital modes and analog sstv etc. so no worries there.
and yep I did have it AFSK-A not DATA-A as I wrote in the OP sorry
about that confusion.

As far as padding the messages with a line feed and space at the end
yep found many ops that didn't do that and was hard to know which was
the first or last letter of a call vs decoded noise sometimes like this
"LKASDFVE3SD 599 04 ON VE3SDYUBDS ASJD AGWSW"
very Confusing. I quickly confirmed I had a leading and trailing
space on all macros when I realised what was happening so I wasn't doing
the same thing to others. I didn't add the line feed Ill revisit that
before next contest.

All good advice
Thanks

David Moes
President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
[hidden email]
VE3DVY, VE3SD

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NK7Z

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Why only tune the radio, and not use the Waterfall?
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Wed, 2014-10-01 at 22:31 -0400, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> David,
>
> Actually, MMTTY and data sub-mode AFSK-A on the K3 will give you the
> best transmitter IMD. With MMTTY, you would tune with the K3 VFO rather
> than clicking on a waterfall display - this is a computer soundcard
> application of MMTTY.
>
> If you prefer to click on a waterfall display, then an application other
> than MMTTY should be used.
>
> Yes, you can do FSK-D with MMTTY, and that requires a "one transistor
> interface" to drive the K3 ACC connector pin 1. Some prefer that
> approach because it avoids setting the soundcard levels correctly for
> transmit. The choice is yours to make.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/1/2014 10:06 PM, david Moes wrote:
> > I have dabbled a bit with RTTY mostly with the Centenial and some DX
> > but this past weekend I thought Ill give the CQWW-RTTY a try. spent a
> > little time and got things working using N1MM and MMVARI using DATA-A
> > relying on the P3 for waterfall display. It seems I got bitten by
> > the RTTY contest bug because I loved it. So here is the question to
> > the serious RTTY contester. what is the ideal setup. is MMTTY and
> > DATA-A best or should I interface for fsk. and is MMTTY the best
> > option here? and more important what is the best way to do this both
> > from software and hardware setup.
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

ve3dvy

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

With AFSK-A the K3 has very a narrow DSP filter to maintain a really
good transmit IMD so you need to keep the modulating frequencies
within the chosen preset filter range 1275 in my setup. You can use
the waterfall to tune but you need to use DATA-A instead of AFSK-A
risk is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc will
also get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is good
quality. I found that with the P3 the markers lined up with the mark
frequency so tuning with the VFO was quite convenient without the P3 I
may have been more tempted to use Data-A and tuning with the mouse

David Moes
President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
[hidden email]
VE3DVY, VE3SD

On 10/2/2014 06:32, David Cole wrote:
> Why only tune the radio, and not use the Waterfall?

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

> risk is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc
> will also get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is
> good quality.

Not quite accurate ... one can have a professional quality sound card
and if the levels are too high, the connections are not correct, the
ground gets opened, one has a significant degree of common mode RF on
the feedline, one has power supply issues, etc. DATA_A can be very
badly distorted/wide. AFSK A is not subject to those issues as long
as the narrow filter (CONFIG: AFSK TX) is enabled.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-10-02 7:30 AM, david Moes wrote:

> With AFSK-A the K3 has very a narrow DSP filter to maintain a really
> good transmit IMD so you need to keep the modulating frequencies
> within the chosen preset filter range 1275 in my setup. You can use
> the waterfall to tune but you need to use DATA-A instead of AFSK-A risk
> is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc will also
> get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is good
> quality. I found that with the P3 the markers lined up with the mark
> frequency so tuning with the VFO was quite convenient without the P3 I
> may have been more tempted to use Data-A and tuning with the mouse
>
> David Moes
> President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
> [hidden email]
> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>
> On 10/2/2014 06:32, David Cole wrote:
>> Why only tune the radio, and not use the Waterfall?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

We used two K3s for a M/2 in last weeks's contest, and did over 2000 Q's; I second the N1MM / FSK recommendation, as there are few variables to manage if I don't have to worry about TX levels.

Also, it's definitely an opinion, but on the receive side, I personally dislike seeing other ops using ENTERLFs in macros during contests, as it can lead to "chasing the information up the screen" on the receive side. It's possible to click on a call in the MMTTY receive window to get it to enter into the logger using N1MM/MMTTY, which is one of the nice features. With ENTERLF printing, if one clicks a fraction of a second too late, the information has scrolled. A couple of spaces (double bag!) can do the job of resetting the decoder to letters instead. Don't even get me started on unusual exchanges. A long exchange that's different from everyone else e.g. "PLEASE COPY 5NN CALIFORNIA CALIFORNIA BTU" instead of "599 03 CA" isn't doing you any favor.

Don't forget the K3 has a built-in data decoder, for an additional vote on what the other station sent, if MMTTY and 2-Tone aren't enough.

Brian N9ADG

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:00 AM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> risk is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc
> will also get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is
> good quality.

Not quite accurate ... one can have a professional quality sound card
and if the levels are too high, the connections are not correct, the
ground gets opened, one has a significant degree of common mode RF on
the feedline, one has power supply issues, etc. DATA_A can be very
badly distorted/wide. AFSK A is not subject to those issues as long
as the narrow filter (CONFIG: AFSK TX) is enabled.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-10-02 7:30 AM, david Moes wrote:

>
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Brian Short-3

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

I am new to the K3, but started RTTY many years ago.

My preference has always been for FSK keying whenever possible.
I have used Writelog for many years and have found MMTTY to be
preferable to RTTYrite which is the included default.

I also like MMTTY and I also like FSK keying :)

I am awaiting arrival of a K3-Digikeyer cable to test my new K3/10
on RTTY with FSK. Answered some questions I had, thanks.

On Oct 2, 2014, at 8:19 AM, Brian Moran via Elecraft wrote:
> We used two K3s for a M/2 in last weeks's contest, and did over 2000 Q's; I second the N1MM / FSK recommendation, as there are few variables to manage if I don't have to worry about TX levels.

--
http://www.qrz.com/db/k7on

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ve3dvy

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by ve3dvy

Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup
with a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the
computer and K3 that it will be fine.

I hope that they add the ability to monitor Transmit signal on the
P3 to see how it looks going out. however you can see your real
signal by watching your signal on the many online SDR's,
http://websdr.org/, that have waterfall displays in real time.

David Moes
VE3DVY

On Thursday 02/10/2014 at 9:01 am, "Joe Subich, W4TV" wrote:

>
>>
>> risk is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc
>> will also get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is
>> good quality.
>
> Not quite accurate ... one can have a professional quality sound card
> and if the levels are too high, the connections are not correct, the
> ground gets opened, one has a significant degree of common mode RF on
> the feedline, one has power supply issues, etc. DATA_A can be very
> badly distorted/wide. AFSK A is not subject to those issues as long
> as the narrow filter (CONFIG: AFSK TX) is enabled.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2014-10-02 7:30 AM, david Moes wrote:
>>
>> With AFSK-A the K3 has very a narrow DSP filter to maintain a really
>> good transmit IMD so you need to keep the modulating frequencies
>> within the chosen preset filter range 1275 in my setup. You can use
>> the waterfall to tune but you need to use DATA-A instead of AFSK-A
>> risk
>> is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc will
>> also
>> get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is good
>> quality. I found that with the P3 the markers lined up with the mark
>> frequency so tuning with the VFO was quite convenient without the P3
>> I
>> may have been more tempted to use Data-A and tuning with the mouse
>>
>> David Moes
>> President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
>> [hidden email]
>> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>>
>> On 10/2/2014 06:32, David Cole wrote:
>>>
>>> Why only tune the radio, and not use the Waterfall?
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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k1-4 user

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Gents,

I will look at the Fred Cady KX3 manual, but are those AFSK TX filters or
similar filter, applied to the RTTY TX when using HRD, fldigi, N1MM, or for
that matter the KX3 Companion or others by selecting the AFSK mode on the
KX3?

Rob
KA5QQA

>
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

In reply to this post by ve3dvy

On 2014-10-02 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:>
>
> Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
> adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup
> with a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the
> computer and K3 that it will be fine.

Unfortunately, that is not a good assumption. Even the best of
stations with *professional* operators and maintenance can have
adjustment problems or equipment failures (I've documented such
even at W1AW in the last couple years). When you add in the
relative inexperience of someone new at sound card based digital
modes, conditions become very bad very quickly and I can provide
example after example of maladjusted rigs, improperly operating
home brew interfaces, etc.

At least, by placing a narrow filter in the transmit audio path,
the K3 prevents the greatest number of those errors. Other rigs
with no monitor, no audio controls, ineffective ALC, and no audio
filtering become QRM generators if one looks at them cross-eyed.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2014-10-02 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

>
>
> Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
> adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup with
> a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the computer and
> K3 that it will be fine.
>
> I hope that they add the ability to monitor Transmit signal on the
> P3 to see how it looks going out. however you can see your real signal
> by watching your signal on the many online SDR's, http://websdr.org/,
> that have waterfall displays in real time.
>
>
> David Moes
> VE3DVY
>
>
> On Thursday 02/10/2014 at 9:01 am, "Joe Subich, W4TV" wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> risk is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc
>>> will also get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is
>>> good quality.
>>
>> Not quite accurate ... one can have a professional quality sound card
>> and if the levels are too high, the connections are not correct, the
>> ground gets opened, one has a significant degree of common mode RF on
>> the feedline, one has power supply issues, etc. DATA_A can be very
>> badly distorted/wide. AFSK A is not subject to those issues as long
>> as the narrow filter (CONFIG: AFSK TX) is enabled.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 2014-10-02 7:30 AM, david Moes wrote:
>>>
>>> With AFSK-A the K3 has very a narrow DSP filter to maintain a really
>>> good transmit IMD so you need to keep the modulating frequencies
>>> within the chosen preset filter range 1275 in my setup. You can use
>>> the waterfall to tune but you need to use DATA-A instead of AFSK-A risk
>>> is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc will also
>>> get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is good
>>> quality. I found that with the P3 the markers lined up with the mark
>>> frequency so tuning with the VFO was quite convenient without the P3 I
>>> may have been more tempted to use Data-A and tuning with the mouse
>>>
>>> David Moes
>>> President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
>>> [hidden email]
>>> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>>>
>>> On 10/2/2014 06:32, David Cole wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why only tune the radio, and not use the Waterfall?
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

k1-4 user

Re: MMTTY DATA-A or FSK

Excuse me while I learn what questions to ask,

Wondering if there is a logging and more program that will allow use of
CW and the PSK D and FSK D modes of my KX3 in a more complete application
than the KX3 utility terminal?

Secondly...how do you tune in stations using PSK D and FSK D? I find it
very difficuly especially with other psk and rtty stations nearby.
I haven't gotten NAP3 or the KX3Companion to tune correctly as yet except
for SSB and CW wher they do a fine job.

Rob
KA5QQA

On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2014-10-02 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:>
> >
>
>> Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
>> adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup
>> with a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the
>> computer and K3 that it will be fine.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, that is not a good assumption. Even the best of
> stations with *professional* operators and maintenance can have
> adjustment problems or equipment failures (I've documented such
> even at W1AW in the last couple years). When you add in the
> relative inexperience of someone new at sound card based digital
> modes, conditions become very bad very quickly and I can provide
> example after example of maladjusted rigs, improperly operating
> home brew interfaces, etc.
>
> At least, by placing a narrow filter in the transmit audio path,
> the K3 prevents the greatest number of those errors. Other rigs
> with no monitor, no audio controls, ineffective ALC, and no audio
> filtering become QRM generators if one looks at them cross-eyed.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 2014-10-02 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
>> adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup with
>> a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the computer and
>> K3 that it will be fine.
>>
>> I hope that they add the ability to monitor Transmit signal on the
>> P3 to see how it looks going out. however you can see your real signal
>> by watching your signal on the many online SDR's, http://websdr.org/,
>> that have waterfall displays in real time.
>>
>>
>> David Moes
>> VE3DVY
>>
>>
>> On Thursday 02/10/2014 at 9:01 am, "Joe Subich, W4TV" wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> risk is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc
>>>> will also get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is
>>>> good quality.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not quite accurate ... one can have a professional quality sound card
>>> and if the levels are too high, the connections are not correct, the
>>> ground gets opened, one has a significant degree of common mode RF on
>>> the feedline, one has power supply issues, etc. DATA_A can be very
>>> badly distorted/wide. AFSK A is not subject to those issues as long
>>> as the narrow filter (CONFIG: AFSK TX) is enabled.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2014-10-02 7:30 AM, david Moes wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> With AFSK-A the K3 has very a narrow DSP filter to maintain a really
>>>> good transmit IMD so you need to keep the modulating frequencies
>>>> within the chosen preset filter range 1275 in my setup. You can use
>>>> the waterfall to tune but you need to use DATA-A instead of AFSK-A risk
>>>> is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc will also
>>>> get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is good
>>>> quality. I found that with the P3 the markers lined up with the mark
>>>> frequency so tuning with the VFO was quite convenient without the P3 I
>>>> may have been more tempted to use Data-A and tuning with the mouse
>>>>
>>>> David Moes
>>>> President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>>>>
>>>> On 10/2/2014 06:32, David Cole wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why only tune the radio, and not use the Waterfall?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Igor Sokolov-2

PSK D and FSK D, request for feature

I want to Echo Rob's question and wonder if it is possible to implement some
basic autotune algorithm similar to pressing SPOT button in the following
situation:
When I call CQ in PSK D and someone comes back to my call slightly off
frequency, I have to enable RIT and try to manually tune to a signal to get
it decoded. That is not easy. I would like to see the situation when
enabling RIT in these two DIGI modes would start autotune algorithm
automatically.

73, Igor UA9CDC

----- Original Message -----

> Excuse me while I learn what questions to ask,
>
> Wondering if there is a logging and more program that will allow use of
> CW and the PSK D and FSK D modes of my KX3 in a more complete application
> than the KX3 utility terminal?
>
> Secondly...how do you tune in stations using PSK D and FSK D? I find it
> very difficuly especially with other psk and rtty stations nearby.
> I haven't gotten NAP3 or the KX3Companion to tune correctly as yet except
> for SSB and CW wher they do a fine job.
>
> Rob
> KA5QQA
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 2014-10-02 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:>
>> >
>>
>>> Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
>>> adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup
>>> with a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the
>>> computer and K3 that it will be fine.
>>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, that is not a good assumption. Even the best of
>> stations with *professional* operators and maintenance can have
>> adjustment problems or equipment failures (I've documented such
>> even at W1AW in the last couple years). When you add in the
>> relative inexperience of someone new at sound card based digital
>> modes, conditions become very bad very quickly and I can provide
>> example after example of maladjusted rigs, improperly operating
>> home brew interfaces, etc.
>>
>> At least, by placing a narrow filter in the transmit audio path,
>> the K3 prevents the greatest number of those errors. Other rigs
>> with no monitor, no audio controls, ineffective ALC, and no audio
>> filtering become QRM generators if one looks at them cross-eyed.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2014-10-02 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
>>> adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup with
>>> a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the computer and
>>> K3 that it will be fine.
>>>
>>> I hope that they add the ability to monitor Transmit signal on the
>>> P3 to see how it looks going out. however you can see your real signal
>>> by watching your signal on the many online SDR's, http://websdr.org/,
>>> that have waterfall displays in real time.
>>>
>>>
>>> David Moes
>>> VE3DVY
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday 02/10/2014 at 9:01 am, "Joe Subich, W4TV" wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> risk is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc
>>>>> will also get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is
>>>>> good quality.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not quite accurate ... one can have a professional quality sound card
>>>> and if the levels are too high, the connections are not correct, the
>>>> ground gets opened, one has a significant degree of common mode RF on
>>>> the feedline, one has power supply issues, etc. DATA_A can be very
>>>> badly distorted/wide. AFSK A is not subject to those issues as long
>>>> as the narrow filter (CONFIG: AFSK TX) is enabled.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2014-10-02 7:30 AM, david Moes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With AFSK-A the K3 has very a narrow DSP filter to maintain a really
>>>>> good transmit IMD so you need to keep the modulating frequencies
>>>>> within the chosen preset filter range 1275 in my setup. You can use
>>>>> the waterfall to tune but you need to use DATA-A instead of AFSK-A
>>>>> risk
>>>>> is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc will
>>>>> also
>>>>> get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is good
>>>>> quality. I found that with the P3 the markers lined up with the mark
>>>>> frequency so tuning with the VFO was quite convenient without the P3
>>>>> I
>>>>> may have been more tempted to use Data-A and tuning with the mouse
>>>>>
>>>>> David Moes
>>>>> President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/2/2014 06:32, David Cole wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why only tune the radio, and not use the Waterfall?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

wayne burdick

Re: PSK D and FSK D, request for feature

Administrator

Hi Igor,

If RIT is turned on, then Autospot (CW and PSK31) is already applied to the RIT offset, not directly to VFO A. I believe this is what you're asking for?

There is no Autospot for RTTY (FSK-D) at this time. However, if CWT is turned on, then it's pretty easy to tune in an RTTY signal by watching the mark and space deflection on the CWT scale.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Oct 2, 2014, at 12:13 PM, "Igor Sokolov" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I want to Echo Rob's question and wonder if it is possible to implement some basic autotune algorithm similar to pressing SPOT button in the following situation:
> When I call CQ in PSK D and someone comes back to my call slightly off frequency, I have to enable RIT and try to manually tune to a signal to get it decoded. That is not easy. I would like to see the situation when enabling RIT in these two DIGI modes would start autotune algorithm automatically.
>
> 73, Igor UA9CDC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> Excuse me while I learn what questions to ask,
>>
>> Wondering if there is a logging and more program that will allow use of
>> CW and the PSK D and FSK D modes of my KX3 in a more complete application
>> than the KX3 utility terminal?
>>
>> Secondly...how do you tune in stations using PSK D and FSK D? I find it
>> very difficuly especially with other psk and rtty stations nearby.
>> I haven't gotten NAP3 or the KX3Companion to tune correctly as yet except
>> for SSB and CW wher they do a fine job.
>>
>> Rob
>> KA5QQA
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 2014-10-02 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:>
>>> >
>>>
>>>> Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
>>>> adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup
>>>> with a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the
>>>> computer and K3 that it will be fine.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, that is not a good assumption. Even the best of
>>> stations with *professional* operators and maintenance can have
>>> adjustment problems or equipment failures (I've documented such
>>> even at W1AW in the last couple years). When you add in the
>>> relative inexperience of someone new at sound card based digital
>>> modes, conditions become very bad very quickly and I can provide
>>> example after example of maladjusted rigs, improperly operating
>>> home brew interfaces, etc.
>>>
>>> At least, by placing a narrow filter in the transmit audio path,
>>> the K3 prevents the greatest number of those errors. Other rigs
>>> with no monitor, no audio controls, ineffective ALC, and no audio
>>> filtering become QRM generators if one looks at them cross-eyed.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2014-10-02 12:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Joe you are correct that if there are physical problems and poor
>>>> adjustments it will be bad but I was assuming a good working setup with
>>>> a quality sound card that is properly adjusted at both the computer and
>>>> K3 that it will be fine.
>>>>
>>>> I hope that they add the ability to monitor Transmit signal on the
>>>> P3 to see how it looks going out. however you can see your real signal
>>>> by watching your signal on the many online SDR's, http://websdr.org/,
>>>> that have waterfall displays in real time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Moes
>>>> VE3DVY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday 02/10/2014 at 9:01 am, "Joe Subich, W4TV" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> risk is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc
>>>>>> will also get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is
>>>>>> good quality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not quite accurate ... one can have a professional quality sound card
>>>>> and if the levels are too high, the connections are not correct, the
>>>>> ground gets opened, one has a significant degree of common mode RF on
>>>>> the feedline, one has power supply issues, etc. DATA_A can be very
>>>>> badly distorted/wide. AFSK A is not subject to those issues as long
>>>>> as the narrow filter (CONFIG: AFSK TX) is enabled.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>>
>>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2014-10-02 7:30 AM, david Moes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With AFSK-A the K3 has very a narrow DSP filter to maintain a really
>>>>>> good transmit IMD so you need to keep the modulating frequencies
>>>>>> within the chosen preset filter range 1275 in my setup. You can use
>>>>>> the waterfall to tune but you need to use DATA-A instead of AFSK-A risk
>>>>>> is any off frequency noise from the sound card, harmonics etc will also
>>>>>> get transmitted not really a big issue if the sound card is good
>>>>>> quality. I found that with the P3 the markers lined up with the mark
>>>>>> frequency so tuning with the VFO was quite convenient without the P3 I
>>>>>> may have been more tempted to use Data-A and tuning with the mouse
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Moes
>>>>>> President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> VE3DVY, VE3SD
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/2/2014 06:32, David Cole wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why only tune the radio, and not use the Waterfall?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>>
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