Made a DB15 cable to connect K3 + KAT500, but now Amp is disabled

[zl2ke]

I had to make a DB15 cable since my K3 is side-by-side to the KAT500,
so the Elecraft cable that I ordered is too short (the DB15-Y cable is the
only one available and it is for a K3 on top of a KAT500).

However now my SB-220 Amplifier is no longer activated and does not 'fire up' when the K3 transmits. All was OK before I connected the cable that I made today, that is, the K3 and KAT500 did trip the linear amp's relay.

The cable that I made today does connect the K3 and KAT500 properly,
so that when I change bands on the K3 the KAT500 changes bands
(and remembers the correct setting for each band so that no tuning is needed).

Page 9 of the KAT500 manual shows the 10 Connector Pins to be used (leaving 5 pins unused),
however I did not connect Pin #15 because the notation states "ALC (Not normally used...).
This means that I have made a cable of 9 wires.

It is my understanding that pin #10 is the Key LIne from the K3,
which should trigger the relay in my SB220 amp (via the KAT500).

There is an RCA-RCA cable from the K3's Key Out to the KAT500,
and another RCA-RCA cable from the SB220 to the KAT500.
This is the same configuration that I had prior to the new cable that I made today,
and as I have said, the SB220 did fire up OK when the K3 transmitted.

I took care in making and testing the cable, so I am sure of the continuity of each wire.

There must be something that I have not done.
How can I get my K3 to once again trigger the SB220 amp?

Thanks,  Steve  ZL2KE

[Dick Dievendorff]

The amplifier key interrupt relay in the KAT500 has two separate poles. One
pole switches the RCA connector path, the other pole switches the path
between pin 10 of each of the two 15-pin accessory connectors.  

There is no connectivity between the two poles.  Thus, you cannot use one
RCA cable and one 15-pin cable.  

If you want to avoid the RCA cables, you'll need to use pin 10 of the 15-pin
accessory cable for both K3 to KAT500 and KAT500 to your SB-220.

73 de Dick, K6KR


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of zl2ke
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 2:26 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Made a DB15 cable to connect K3 + KAT500, but now Amp is
disabled

I had to make a DB15 cable since my K3 is side-by-side to the KAT500, so the
Elecraft cable that I ordered is too short (the DB15-Y cable is the only one
available and it is for a K3 on top of a KAT500).

However now my SB-220 Amplifier is no longer activated and does not 'fire
up' when the K3 transmits. All was OK before I connected the cable that I
made today, that is, the K3 and KAT500 did trip the linear amp's relay.

The cable that I made today does connect the K3 and KAT500 properly, so that
when I change bands on the K3 the KAT500 changes bands (and remembers the
correct setting for each band so that no tuning is needed).

Page 9 of the KAT500 manual shows the 10 Connector Pins to be used (leaving
5 pins unused),
however I did not connect Pin #15 because the notation states "ALC (Not
normally used...).
This means that I have made a cable of 9 wires.

It is my understanding that pin #10 is the Key LIne from the K3, which
should trigger the relay in my SB220 amp (via the KAT500).

There is an RCA-RCA cable from the K3's Key Out to the KAT500, and another
RCA-RCA cable from the SB220 to the KAT500.
This is the same configuration that I had prior to the new cable that I made
today, and as I have said, the SB220 did fire up OK when the K3 transmitted.

I took care in making and testing the cable, so I am sure of the continuity
of each wire.

There must be something that I have not done.
How can I get my K3 to once again trigger the SB220 amp?

Thanks,  Steve  ZL2KE



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but-now-Amp-is-disabled-tp7578367.html
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[Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2]

Hi Steve,

If you still have *both* RCA cables in place, I can't see how your new
ACC cable could be prevent keying of your SB-220. If you remove your
new cable, does keying work? Check that those RCA cables really are
still intact. Also check that the KAT500 is not interrupting keying
due to excessive VSWR.

73,

    ~iain / N6ML


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 2:25 AM, zl2ke <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I had to make a DB15 cable since my K3 is side-by-side to the KAT500,
> so the Elecraft cable that I ordered is too short (the DB15-Y cable is the
> only one available and it is for a K3 on top of a KAT500).
>
> However now my SB-220 Amplifier is no longer activated and does not 'fire
> up' when the K3 transmits. All was OK before I connected the cable that I
> made today, that is, the K3 and KAT500 did trip the linear amp's relay.
>
> The cable that I made today does connect the K3 and KAT500 properly,
> so that when I change bands on the K3 the KAT500 changes bands
> (and remembers the correct setting for each band so that no tuning is
> needed).
>
> Page 9 of the KAT500 manual shows the 10 Connector Pins to be used (leaving
> 5 pins unused),
> however I did not connect Pin #15 because the notation states "ALC (Not
> normally used...).
> This means that I have made a cable of 9 wires.
>
> It is my understanding that pin #10 is the Key LIne from the K3,
> which should trigger the relay in my SB220 amp (via the KAT500).
>
> There is an RCA-RCA cable from the K3's Key Out to the KAT500,
> and another RCA-RCA cable from the SB220 to the KAT500.
> This is the same configuration that I had prior to the new cable that I made
> today,
> and as I have said, the SB220 did fire up OK when the K3 transmitted.
>
> I took care in making and testing the cable, so I am sure of the continuity
> of each wire.
>
> There must be something that I have not done.
> How can I get my K3 to once again trigger the SB220 amp?
>
> Thanks,  Steve  ZL2KE
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Made-a-DB15-cable-to-connect-K3-KAT500-but-now-Amp-is-disabled-tp7578367.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[zl2ke]

<< If you remove your new cable, does keying work? >>

Thanks for the reply Iain.
I just removed my cable from the K3's ACC socket and the amp works.
(The cable/DB15 plug is still attached to the KAT500.)

So what does this mean, and what to do now?

Cheers,  Steve  ZL2KE

[zl2ke]

Hello Dick and Iain,

With reference to my reply to Iain's post, I forgot to say that I did
unplug the RCA cable from the K3's Key Out, but the amp still did not work.
I did leave the RCA cable plugged into the KAT500 - not sure if this would make a difference.

Dick, I am not sure if I understand what you wrote, in particular:
"Thus, you cannot use one RCA cable and one 15-pin cable."
Does this mean that if I use the DB15 cable between the K3 and KAT500, I should
then completely remove the RCA cable between the two units?

BTW, my desk space is limited, with a PC LCD screen directly above the K3 and a shelf
above the screen, and the result is that I have to contort to fiddle with wires and plugs.
Furthermore, the DB15/VGA plugs do not have finger-thumb screws but instead I have
to use a screwdriver, so this adds to the task of fiddling with plugs and wires.
My wish is that Elecraft would have a longer DB15 cable available so that others with a
side-by-side K arrangement do not have to  make their own cable.

Thanks for your help.  73  Steve   ZL2KE

[Don Wilhelm-4]

Steve,

Either use the keying interrupter or remove pin 10 from your cable.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/29/2013 4:38 PM, zl2ke wrote:

> << If you remove your new cable, does keying work? >>
>
> Thanks for the reply Iain.
> I just removed my cable from the K3's ACC socket and the amp works.
> (The cable/DB15 plug is still attached to the KAT500.)
>
> So what does this mean, and what to do now?
>
> Cheers,  Steve  ZL2KE
>
>
>

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[Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 1:38 PM, zl2ke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> << If you remove your new cable, does keying work? >>
>
> Thanks for the reply Iain.
> I just removed my cable from the K3's ACC socket and the amp works.
> (The cable/DB15 plug is still attached to the KAT500.)
>
> So what does this mean, and what to do now?

That seems to suggest that your custom cable is defective - maybe it's
shorting the keying line (pin 10) to something else and interfering
with the K3's key output.

Just to be sure .... you have *both* RCA cables in place through all
of these scenarios, right?

73,

    ~iain / N6ML
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[zl2ke]

<<Either use the keying interrupter or remove pin 10 from your cable. >>

Don, I asked David at Elecraft Customer Support about using a key line interrupter.
Here is his answer:
"you do not need to use a separate Key Line Interrupter for your application.  When you use the 15 pin cable between the K3 and the KAT500, it will provide band data tracking the KAT500 with the K3's band changes.  However, pin 10 is a Key Line signal from the K3.  The good news is that this Key Line is implemented in parallel with the KEY OUT signal from the K3, passing through the KAT500 RCA connectors and on to the Heath amp. So, you're good to go with the configuration you have."

This is why I made my cable and used it without a key line interrupter.
Of course maybe I have misinterpreted David's answer, or he did similar with my question/setup.

Dick, K6KR seems to present a solution that will work so I will answer his post now.

Cheers,  Steve  ZL2KE

[zl2ke]

On 30/08/2013 9:21 a.m., Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2 [via Elecraft] wrote:
>
> That seems to suggest that your custom cable is defective - maybe it's
> shorting the keying line (pin 10) to something else and interfering
> with the K3's key output.

The cable is not defective - I checked continuity carefully.
>
> Just to be sure .... you have *both* RCA cables in place through all
> of these scenarios, right?
Yes, both RCA cables are in place, as before I made the new cable.

Thanks for your suggestions Iain.

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[Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2]

On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 2:37 PM, zl2ke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 30/08/2013 9:21 a.m., Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2 [via Elecraft] wrote:
>>
>> That seems to suggest that your custom cable is defective - maybe it's
>> shorting the keying line (pin 10) to something else and interfering
>> with the K3's key output.
>
> The cable is not defective - I checked continuity carefully.

If two pins are shorted together (solder bridge), a pin-for-pin
continuity test would not reveal it.


>> Just to be sure .... you have *both* RCA cables in place through all
>> of these scenarios, right?
> Yes, both RCA cables are in place, as before I made the new cable.

If that's the case, and it stops working when you connect your custom
cable (and don't change anything else), there has to be something
wrong with the custom cable. I suppose it's remotely possible that
there's a defect in the KAT500 that's shorting the keying line to
something, but that seems much less likely than a problem in the
cable.

You could actually just remove pin 10 from your custom cable entirely.
You don't need it, since you're leaving the RCA cables in place.

73,

    ~iain / N6ML
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Steve,

I recall that there is a problem if both pin 10 of the cable and the RCA
cable is used between the K3 and the KAT500.  I can't remember the
details, but try removing pin 10 from your cable as a test.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/29/2013 5:34 PM, zl2ke wrote:

> <<Either use the keying interrupter or remove pin 10 from your cable. >>
>
> Don, I asked David at Elecraft Customer Support about using a key line
> interrupter.
> Here is his answer:
> "you do not need to use a separate Key Line Interrupter for your
> application.  When you use the 15 pin cable between the K3 and the KAT500,
> it will provide band data tracking the KAT500 with the K3's band changes.
> However, pin 10 is a Key Line signal from the K3.  The good news is that
> this Key Line is implemented in parallel with the KEY OUT signal from the
> K3, passing through the KAT500 RCA connectors and on to the Heath amp. So,
> you're good to go with the configuration you have."
>
> This is why I made my cable and used it without a key line interrupter.
> Of course maybe I have misinterpreted David's answer, or he did similar with
> my question/setup.
>
> Dick, K6KR seems to present a solution that will work so I will answer his
> post now.
>
> Cheers,  Steve  ZL2KE
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Made-a-DB15-cable-to-connect-K3-KAT500-but-now-Amp-is-disabled-tp7578367p7578388.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[zl2ke]

There seems to be two possible solutions for my amp-disabled problem:

1.  Remove the wire to pin #10 from my homebrew cable, and still use the
     RCA cable from the KAT500 to the SB220 amp.

2.  Make a new cable from the SB220 to the 15 socket on the back of
     the KAT500 marked "AMP", using pin #10 for the centre conductor of the
     RCA cable and pin #5 to the shield/ground of the RCA cable.
     (Suggested by Dick K6KR.)

Iain, your suggestion of removing the wire to pin #10 is the easiest option for me,
but I will wait a bit to see what others say

73,  Steve   ZL2KE

[Doug VE3VS]

I caught a hint that may be the cause of your situation. Are you converting a VGA cable to make your new cable? If so, there may be internal hidden connections in the shell of a plug that could cause a problem.

[zl2ke]

<<Are you converting a VGA cable to make your new cable?>>

Hi Doug,

The cable that I made is with a new 9 wire shielded cable and two new DB15/VGA connectors.

I am not recycling or converting an old VGA cable.

73,  Steve   ZL2KE

[Don Wilhelm-4]

Steve,

Dick's solution will work, but removing the conductor on pin 10 if your
cable is an easier solution.

What Dick is saying is that you are using both the pin 10 connection and
the RCA cable PTT connection between the K3 and the KAT500.  I believe
your problem results from attempting to use both.  Since the cable pin
10 will not activate the RCA cable between the KAT500 and your
amplifier, removing the pin 10 signal from your cable seems to be the
only reasonable alternative.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/29/2013 6:01 PM, zl2ke wrote:

> There seems to be two possible solutions for my amp-disabled problem:
>
> 1.  Remove the wire to pin #10 from my homebrew cable, and still use the
>       RCA cable from the KAT500 to the SB220 amp.
>
> 2.  Make a new cable from the SB220 to the 15 socket on the back of
>       the KAT500 marked "AMP", using pin #10 for the centre conductor of the
>       RCA cable and pin #5 to the shield/ground of the RCA cable.
>       (Suggested by Dick K6KR.)
>
> Iain, your suggestion of removing the wire to pin #10 is the easiest option
> for me,
> but I will wait a bit to see what others say
>
> 73,  Steve   ZL2KE
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Made-a-DB15-cable-to-connect-K3-KAT500-but-now-Amp-is-disabled-tp7578367p7578393.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2]

It really shouldn't be necessary to remove pin 10 - it should get as
far as the relay in the KAT500, and be left dangling there (not
connected to anything else). It really shouldn't do any harm. I still
think it may be shorted to something else, or there's some other
factor at play here that we haven't thought of yet. It would be
interesting to see if removing pin 10 does solve the problem, but I'd
still wonder why....

73,

    ~iain / N6ML


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Dick's solution will work, but removing the conductor on pin 10 if your
> cable is an easier solution.
>
> What Dick is saying is that you are using both the pin 10 connection and the
> RCA cable PTT connection between the K3 and the KAT500.  I believe your
> problem results from attempting to use both.  Since the cable pin 10 will
> not activate the RCA cable between the KAT500 and your amplifier, removing
> the pin 10 signal from your cable seems to be the only reasonable
> alternative.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 8/29/2013 6:01 PM, zl2ke wrote:
>>
>> There seems to be two possible solutions for my amp-disabled problem:
>>
>> 1.  Remove the wire to pin #10 from my homebrew cable, and still use the
>>       RCA cable from the KAT500 to the SB220 amp.
>>
>> 2.  Make a new cable from the SB220 to the 15 socket on the back of
>>       the KAT500 marked "AMP", using pin #10 for the centre conductor of
>> the
>>       RCA cable and pin #5 to the shield/ground of the RCA cable.
>>       (Suggested by Dick K6KR.)
>>
>> Iain, your suggestion of removing the wire to pin #10 is the easiest
>> option
>> for me,
>> but I will wait a bit to see what others say
>>
>> 73,  Steve   ZL2KE
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Made-a-DB15-cable-to-connect-K3-KAT500-but-now-Amp-is-disabled-tp7578367p7578393.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
>
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[Dick Dievendorff]

I think the key might be to remove pin 10 from the K3 end of the cable.  I
suspect something in the cable might affect the K3's RCA PTT connection,
either pulling it down full time or holding it up.  I'm just guessing.  I
don't question that the cable has continuity pin to pin.  I wonder what pins
might have continuity to each other.

Dick, K6KR


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of iain macdonnell -
N6ML
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2013 18:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft Reflector; zl2ke
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Made a DB15 cable to connect K3 + KAT500, but now
Amp is disabled

It really shouldn't be necessary to remove pin 10 - it should get as far as
the relay in the KAT500, and be left dangling there (not connected to
anything else). It really shouldn't do any harm. I still think it may be
shorted to something else, or there's some other factor at play here that we
haven't thought of yet. It would be interesting to see if removing pin 10
does solve the problem, but I'd still wonder why....

73,

    ~iain / N6ML


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Dick's solution will work, but removing the conductor on pin 10 if
> your cable is an easier solution.
>
> What Dick is saying is that you are using both the pin 10 connection
> and the RCA cable PTT connection between the K3 and the KAT500.  I
> believe your problem results from attempting to use both.  Since the
> cable pin 10 will not activate the RCA cable between the KAT500 and
> your amplifier, removing the pin 10 signal from your cable seems to be
> the only reasonable alternative.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 8/29/2013 6:01 PM, zl2ke wrote:
>>
>> There seems to be two possible solutions for my amp-disabled problem:
>>
>> 1.  Remove the wire to pin #10 from my homebrew cable, and still use the
>>       RCA cable from the KAT500 to the SB220 amp.
>>
>> 2.  Make a new cable from the SB220 to the 15 socket on the back of
>>       the KAT500 marked "AMP", using pin #10 for the centre conductor
>> of the
>>       RCA cable and pin #5 to the shield/ground of the RCA cable.
>>       (Suggested by Dick K6KR.)
>>
>> Iain, your suggestion of removing the wire to pin #10 is the easiest
>> option for me, but I will wait a bit to see what others say
>>
>> 73,  Steve   ZL2KE
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Made-a-DB15-cable-to-connect-K3-
>> KAT500-but-now-Amp-is-disabled-tp7578367p7578393.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
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[zl2ke]

On 30/08/2013 2:01 p.m., Dick Dievendorff [via Elecraft] wrote:

I think the key might be to remove pin 10 from the K3 end of the cable.  I
suspect something in the cable might affect the K3's RCA PTT connection,
either pulling it down full time or holding it up.  I'm just guessing.  I
don't question that the cable has continuity pin to pin.  I wonder what pins
might have continuity to each other.

Dick, K6KR

Problem solved ! Amp works with K3 and KAT500 !

I removed the pin #10 wire from the K3 end of the cable.

BTW, before I removed the wire from #10  I checked to see if
it had a connection to any other pin - and no, all was OK.

Cheers,  Steve  ZL2KE

[Don Wilhelm-4]

Iain,

Your logic is impeccable, but somehow the KAT500 senses the connection
of the K3 KeyoutLP signal through the cable pin 10 and attempts to use
that signal (and ignors the RCA cable PTT).  I do not have the details,
but this has been reported before - one cannot use both the cable with
pin 10 connected and the RCA cable together.  That is what the Key
interrupter accomplishes.
The instructions in the KPA100 manual are correct, (but lack the warning
that the use of both is to be avoided).

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/29/2013 9:43 PM, iain macdonnell - N6ML wrote:

> It really shouldn't be necessary to remove pin 10 - it should get as
> far as the relay in the KAT500, and be left dangling there (not
> connected to anything else). It really shouldn't do any harm. I still
> think it may be shorted to something else, or there's some other
> factor at play here that we haven't thought of yet. It would be
> interesting to see if removing pin 10 does solve the problem, but I'd
> still wonder why....
>
> 73,
>
>      ~iain / N6ML
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:46 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Steve,
>>
>> Dick's solution will work, but removing the conductor on pin 10 if your
>> cable is an easier solution.
>>
>> What Dick is saying is that you are using both the pin 10 connection and the
>> RCA cable PTT connection between the K3 and the KAT500.  I believe your
>> problem results from attempting to use both.  Since the cable pin 10 will
>> not activate the RCA cable between the KAT500 and your amplifier, removing
>> the pin 10 signal from your cable seems to be the only reasonable
>> alternative.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>>
>> On 8/29/2013 6:01 PM, zl2ke wrote:
>>> There seems to be two possible solutions for my amp-disabled problem:
>>>
>>> 1.  Remove the wire to pin #10 from my homebrew cable, and still use the
>>>        RCA cable from the KAT500 to the SB220 amp.
>>>
>>> 2.  Make a new cable from the SB220 to the 15 socket on the back of
>>>        the KAT500 marked "AMP", using pin #10 for the centre conductor of
>>> the
>>>        RCA cable and pin #5 to the shield/ground of the RCA cable.
>>>        (Suggested by Dick K6KR.)
>>>
>>> Iain, your suggestion of removing the wire to pin #10 is the easiest
>>> option
>>> for me,
>>> but I will wait a bit to see what others say
>>>
>>> 73,  Steve   ZL2KE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Made-a-DB15-cable-to-connect-K3-KAT500-but-now-Amp-is-disabled-tp7578367p7578393.html
>>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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[zl2ke]

Problem solved!  Amp works with K3 and KAT500!
And the KAT500 tracks along with the K3 when band switching, with no need for retuning.

I removed the pin #10 wire from the K3 end of the cable.

BTW, before I removed the wire from #10  I checked to see if
it had a connection to any other pin - and no, all was OK.

Thanks to everyone who posted here and sent me emails.
It has been an interesting experience. However what I cannot understand
is why Elecraft did not put this solution in the KAT500 or K3 manuals, or at least
online - with a clear diagram showing: [K3 + KAT500, + a non Elecraft amp], and the
necessity of using a pin #10 interrupter or how to achieve this when making a homebrew
(longer) cable. If it is in the manual(s) it is not clear.

Elecraft customer support (and sales, and parts) have been superb. When I
submit my eham review it will be a 5/5 based on the prompt and friendly service
Elecraft offers and of course the top technical aspects. However, customer
support led me wrong by telling me I did not need a DB15 interrupter. The Elecraft
guys are far far more knowledgeable than I am or will be, so I guess there was
a misunderstanding somewhere. Using a non Elecraft amp with a K3 and KAT500
is surely not an uncommon occurrence, so the proper method of connection between
these three units should be made clear and simple.

BTW, it is 2.30 PM here in ZL land and I notice that 20m is in good shape.
<Sigh>, if I turn my amp on, there will be an even bigger Russian / Eu pile up to
contend with. Life is hard...  Guess I will try QRP, hi hi.

Cheers,  Steve  ZL2KE