Microphone compatibility

[Ian Maude]

I cannot keep quiet any longer! :)

What is all the noise about microphone compatibility?  We are radio
amateurs, it should be simple enough to wire a microphone for a rig.  
Just look at the pin outs on the mic and the rig and wire accordingly.  
The circuitry is not exactly complex!
If we buy *any* radio we pretty much know that the mic wiring is going
to be different.  4-way, 8-way, RJ45 connectors, the list goes on.  What
ever the manufacturer decides is the right way for them, this has always
been the case.
It really is quite simple.  Is your microphone a dynamic type?  If so,
wire it for Kenwood and it will work.  Does it need a voltage?  Look at
the diagrams as I mentioned before.  Good grief!  Elecraft are building
the rigs for us now and we are still moaning! ;)

73 Ian

--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #?

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[Stewart Baker]

CB rigs are much easier. They come with a microphone. :-)

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:23:07 +0000, Ian J Maude wrote:
> I cannot keep quiet any longer! :)
>
> What is all the noise about microphone compatibility?  We are
radio
> amateurs, it should be simple enough to wire a microphone for a
rig.
> Just look at the pin outs on the mic and the rig and wire
accordingly.
> The circuitry is not exactly complex!
> If we buy *any* radio we pretty much know that the mic wiring is
going
> to be different.  4-way, 8-way, RJ45 connectors, the list goes
on.  What
> ever the manufacturer decides is the right way for them, this
has always
> been the case.
> It really is quite simple.  Is your microphone a dynamic type?
 If so,
> wire it for Kenwood and it will work.  Does it need a voltage?
 Look at
> the diagrams as I mentioned before.  Good grief!  Elecraft are
building
> the rigs for us now and we are still moaning! ;)
>
> 73 Ian


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[Charly]

No, Ian, the mess of conflicting plug standards has not always been the case.  There was a time when a 4 pin mic plug had pin one as mic and 2 as ptt and 3 as gnd.  Johnson, Heath, and all the other xmitter makers AGREED.
There was a time ... still somewhat with us... when the 6 pin Molex was the power connector of choice and AMAZINGLY K, I, Y, and others HAD THE SAME PIN OUT on these.  The telephone style plug now arriving on so many rigs answers the manufacturers' dream because they are so difficult to self-install that the customer is nearly forced to purchase specific mics ... THEIR LINE.
 
Too,There was a time when a ham would have sneered at a DIN plug, that nightmare--both to solder to and to cope with differences.    So on and on.
 
The use of different pin-outs is cause for consumer anger because the choice is not based on good engineering practice but on the desire to sell their own differentiated product to those who have also purchased their line of products.  Because most of the K, I, and Y crop of mics are so equally bad, the only way to make their product different is not via quality but via a unique pin-out plug.  Shameful business practice that only hurts the consumer.  The reason Bob Heil's mics sell is that THEY ARE BETTER, and he has made an easy line of adapters, too.  
 
Elecraft made a good showing by trying to copy the Kenwood standard even if there is a problem with SOME CASES with pins 5 and 6 reversed.  That I have the time to explain the obvious shows that I am retired, and ____ fill in the blank.
73,Charles [hidden email] > On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:23:07 +0000, Ian J Maude wrote:> > I cannot keep quiet any longer! :)> >> > What is all the noise about microphone compatibility? We are > radio> > amateurs, it should be simple enough to wire a microphone for a > rig.> > Just look at the pin outs on the mic and the rig and wire > accordingly.> > The circuitry is not exactly complex!> > If we buy *any* radio we pretty much know that the mic wiring is > going> > to be different. 4-way, 8-way, RJ45 connectors, the list goes > on. What> > ever the manufacturer decides is the right way for them, this > has always> > been the case.> > It really is quite simple. Is your microphone a dynamic type? > If so,> > wire it for Kenwood and it will work. Does it need a voltage? > Look at> > the diagrams as I mentioned before. Good grief! Elecraft are > building> > the rigs for us now and we are still moaning! ;)> >> > 73 Ian> > > _______________________________________________> Elecraft mailing list> Post to: [hidden email]> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com_______________________________________________
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[Bill N2BC]

Mic 'standard' - never happen - at least I hope it never happens.

They started out with one pin for audio and could end up with one pin for
everything as more and more 'brains' are moved into the microphone and the
connection to the radio turns into a one-wire serial link.  This could give
us a compatible connecter with completely incompatible 'data streams'.

Break out your wire cutters and soldering iron.  Visit
http://www.qsl.net/g4wpw/date.html to view the myriad of pin-outs for and
within each of the manufacturer's microphones and radios.

If we need a standard, I propose that it be based on a 14-pin JONES plug,
that would look pretty nifty on the front of the future K4.

OK, /sarcasm off & I'll go shovel the driveway.

73 Bill N2BC


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[N2EY]

In a message dated 2/13/08 5:45:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> There was a time when a 4 pin mic plug had pin one as mic and 2 as ptt and
> 3 as gnd.  Johnson, Heath, and all the other xmitter makers AGREED.
>

When was that?

I've had Johnson transmitters that used the Ampenol MC1 type mike connector,
and Heaths that used the odd 2 pin connector that is hard to find today.
Others used the 1/4" "stereo" plug, except those that used the version which is
0.206" (PJ-068?)

Of course it was common in those days to modify the rig to use the connector
you liked, and there was lots of room in the rig to do it. But the original
equipment connectors were all over the map.

The four-pin connector was a Japanese standard for a while. But then came
mikes that needed voltage at the mike for the element, mikes that had DTMF pads
on the back, mikes with built in preamps, mikes with up/down frequency
switches, etc.

One more reason to use CW!

73 de Jim, N2EY


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[David Pratt-2]

What we must remember, Stewart, is that the radio amateurs of today are
a different breed from those when we took out our licences. The
qualifications are different and some newly licensed amateurs are little
more than CB or 'appliance' operators.

Indeed, the K3 itself does not require any soldering and long gone are
the days when amateurs needed to build their own equipment.

It's sad really, but just the sign of the times.

73

David G4DMP/G3KEP
(RAE 1954)

In a recent message, Stewart Baker <[hidden email]> wrote
...

>CB rigs are much easier. They come with a microphone. :-)
>
>73
>Stewart G3RXQ
>On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:23:07 +0000, Ian J Maude wrote:
>> What is all the noise about microphone compatibility?  We are
>radio
>> amateurs, it should be simple enough to wire a microphone for a
>rig.
>> Just look at the pin outs on the mic and the rig and wire
>accordingly.
>> The circuitry is not exactly complex!

--
David G4DMP
Leeds, England, UK
------


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[Ian Maude]

Charles Harpole wrote:
>   The telephone style plug now arriving on so many rigs answers the
> manufacturers' dream because they are so difficult to self-install
> that the customer is nearly forced to purchase specific mics ... THEIR
> LINE.
I have to disagree with you here.  Making adapters for these is really
so simple.  a 1 metre network patch cable costs about £1.  Cut it in
half and you have 2 adapters to wire as you wish.  It has never been easier.
>  
>
> The use of different pin-outs is cause for consumer anger because the
> choice is not based on good engineering practice but on the desire to
> sell their own differentiated product to those who have also purchased
> their line of products.  Because most of the K, I, and Y crop of mics
> are so equally bad, the only way to make their product different is
> not via quality but via a unique pin-out plug.  Shameful business
> practice that only hurts the consumer.
Again a rather cynical viewpoint that I disagree with.  They have simply
standardised their own way as there is no 'standard' to comply with.
>   The reason Bob Heil's mics sell is that THEY ARE BETTER, and he has
> made an easy line of adapters, too.
Well I will not disagree with you on the mics, Bob's contribution has
been terrific and he also has a good business head.  However, I would
rather make my own adapters for pence.  As for his headsets, they plug
right into the back of the K3, no adapter required.
>  
> Elecraft made a good showing by trying to copy the Kenwood standard
> even if there is a problem with SOME CASES with pins 5 and 6
> reversed.  That I have the time to explain the obvious shows that I am
> retired, and ____ fill in the blank.
Not sure what obvious you are referring to Charles.  A *lot* of mics
work with the K3 without any adjustment at all.  My Proset plugs in the
back, my Goldline in the front.  I can use any Kenwood mic I own etc.  I
simply don't feel that rewiring a mic is a big deal for anyone (unless
they are blind or have problems with their hands of course).
Actually, looking at this discussion sideways, the rig must be fantastic
if all we can find to complain about is the mic wiring :)

73 Ian

--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #?

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[Buck - k4ia]

I am using a Heil Goldline with the Kenwood  adapter cable.  It works just
fine.  I just set the MIC SEL setting to  TPL with no Bias.

k4ia
"Buck" K3 #101
Fredericksburg, VA  




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[John Unger-2]

What I have done with all my non-rig-specific microphones (2) and Heil
headset/mics (3) is to install a simple stereo 1/4" jack on them. Then I
have short pigtail adapters with the rig-correct mic plug on one end and a
1/4" stereo plug on the other. Makes it easy for going from one rig to
another with dynamic mics. I am connecting only the audio, PTT, and GND, of
course.

As usual, YMMV...

73 - John, W4AU

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[Bill Steffey NY9H]

holy cow,,,

a $1.59 electret mic element from radio shack works GREAT with
all my icoms and my K2s and K3.

And where do the kenwood & Icom and Yaesu Mics  ( & bob's ) come from....
from companies that actually make microphones.... like Primo,
panasonic & Foster in JA land.   In EU Sennheiser...&
AKG    etc.....just look in  mouser & digikey.

Ham radio is too small a market to make mic elements....Ham companies
can assemble them;  "design" them  , and  MARKET THEM TO HAMS  YES...

Even Elecraft acknowledges this reality.....  they get them made, the
way they want...and are entitled to mark them up so they can "design"
& advertise, maintain inventory and MAKE HAMS HAPPY who want a
matching...esthetically pleasing solution. O Yes  THEY HAVE THE
MATCHING CONNECTOR... which is called a "foster" connector ( the mic
company that supplies all those mics).

back to cw


K3 ASSEMBLY PIX @

http://picasaweb.google.com/Bill.SteffeySr/K3

NY9H STATION PIX @
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=1771119&a=13683578&p=75658236&f=0

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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[Charly]

Ron.... about the time when the famous D-104 was in every shack.... with a vy wide and rather flat response... Astatic also sold a    10-C  (ceramic) and the 10-D (dynamic) elements/mics that were shaped for voice with a peak in the mid VOICE range.  I still have my 10-C and the Astatic paper showing its response curve.  Altho much loved, the "lolypop" D-104 is notoriously broad and flat and is not much good as a communications mic.  To enlarge ur info on mics, please consult Bob Heil's info on his mics that are real communications mics.  The MC-50 generation of mics were not so good.  73, Charles [hidden email] > From: [hidden email]> To: [hidden email]> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] electronic product standards> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:12:55 -0800> > Bill, NY9H wrote:> > > a $1.59 electret mic element from radio shack works GREAT with all my icoms> and my K2s and K3.> > -----------------------------------> > Yes, those Radio Shack electret elements are excellent. I have one mounted> in an scavenged hand-held mic housing that works FB. The element has a very> wide frequency response, since it's designed for general purpose audio work,> but that's not a problem with modern rigs with filters such as the K2 or K3.> > > Back in the "old days" of vacuum tube A.M. rigs, the modulators tended to> "broad as a barn", passing all audio put into them with only minimal shaping> provided by the values used for coupling and bypass capacitors in the speech> amplifier stages. > > There were some microphones produced for the "communications" market back> then such as the famous Astatic D-104 which had a microphone element with a> shaped response showing a distinct hump around 3 kHz, rolling off slowly at> lower frequencies and somewhat faster at higher frequencies. That hump> helped with "articulation" by emphasizing the mid-range speech frequencies.> Astatic even published a frequency response chart showing exactly what it> looked like, but back in those days most microphone element manufacturers> provided frequency response charts with their various mics.> > I don't know if anyone is doing that today for mainstream communications> microphones. Even the "high end" Ham mics only offer general and> uninformative comments about "shaping" and "clarity" that say much and> convey little. Interestingly, one of the big exceptions is the inexpensive> little Radio Shack electret element. It comes with a frequency response> chart showing a very flat response across the audio spectrum.> > But all is not lost: the SSB filters in modern rigs prevent excessive audio> band passes and the K3 goes farther yet, offering a transmit equalizer with> which one can shape the audio response to suit one's voice. When doing that,> it's good to start with a wide range "flat" microphone element response like> the Radio Shack electret. > > I rather expect, although they don't say as far as I can see, the "high end"> Ham mic manufacturers are using elements with a flat response and perhaps> doing some sort of shaping in design of the enclosure. If so, then choosing> a Ham mic today is really a matter of cosmetics: choosing what looks "nice".> > > Another list member here asked what, exactly, is the best response to> provide the best intelligibility under all conditions and how can that be> seen unambiguously on a display like spectrogram? > > That's a good question. Sometimes we get too many choices. I'm happy to> record my rig using a wide-band auxiliary receiver and adjust the equalizer> for a sound that I'd like to hear from the other end in a rag chew. But then> I don't spend long hours yelling into the mic in a contest or trying to> shout down the others in a DX pileup ;-)> > Ron AC7AC > > > _______________________________________________> Elecraft mailing list> Post to: [hidden email]> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com_______________________________________________
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[w9oj]

Quoting Charles Harpole <[hidden email]>:

>
> Ron.... about the time when the famous D-104 was in every shack.... with a vy
> wide and rather flat response.


It doesn't look very flat on the graph.

http://www.ronharter.com/astaticD104.htm

73 de Mike W9OJ
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[AC7AC]

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[Chris Kantarjiev K6DBG]

In a recent message, David G4DMP/G3KEP wrote

> What we must remember, Stewart, is that the radio amateurs of today are
> a different breed from those when we took out our licences. The
> qualifications are different and some newly licensed amateurs are little
> more than CB or 'appliance' operators.

David,

Please be careful just where you swing that tar brush. I may be an
"Extra lite" with less than four years on my license, and only had to
pass a 5 WPM test, but I have built 3 Elecraft rigs, use wire antennas
that I erected, and work 20 WPM. I've earned my share of wallpaper and
worked good DX at QRP levels, all at the bottom of the (this) sunspot cycle.

And I'm not alone on this list.

VY 73 de chris K6DBG
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[Bob Nielsen-2]

I have often thought about replacing the crystal element in my >50-
year-old D104 with one of the Radio Shack electret elements, although  
some might call that heresy.

I dropped the mike once (a long time ago) and the element came  
loose.  I sent the head to Astatic asking them to repair it and let  
me know how much it would cost.  They shipped the mike back a week  
later with a new element installed, no charge.

Bob, N7XY


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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[David Pratt-2]

Present company excepted, Chris, I did say "_some_ newly licensed..."

Congrats on the three Elecraft rigs and 20wpm CW; your enthusiasm is to
be commended.  I look forward to working you.

73

David

In a recent message, Chris Kantarjiev <[hidden email]> wrote ...

>
>In a recent message, David G4DMP/G3KEP wrote
>>The  qualifications are different and some newly licensed amateurs are
>>little  more than CB or 'appliance' operators.
>
>David,
>
>Please be careful just where you swing that tar brush. I may be an
>"Extra lite" with less than four years on my license, and only had to
>pass a 5 WPM test, but I have built 3 Elecraft rigs, use wire antennas
>that I erected, and work 20 WPM. I've earned my share of wallpaper and
>worked good DX at QRP levels, all at the bottom of the (this) sunspot
>cycle.

--
David G4DMP
Leeds, England, UK
------


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[Brendan Minish]

On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 12:12 -0800, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> There were some microphones produced for the "communications" market back
> then such as the famous Astatic D-104 which had a microphone element with a
> shaped response showing a distinct hump around 3 kHz, rolling off slowly at
> lower frequencies and somewhat faster at higher frequencies. That hump
> helped with "articulation" by emphasizing the mid-range speech frequencies.

This is a presence peak.

> I don't know if anyone is doing that today for mainstream communications
> microphones.

Today Paging Microphones are still specifically designed to have this
pronounced mid range presence peak and also usually include Quite a bit
of low frequency Roll off

Shure have a range of dynamic elements available for this market, that
have response curves that look remarkably similar to the HC4 and HC5
elements.
take a look at the response curve of the Shure 450
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_450SeriesII_content
a direct link to just the curve
http://www.shure.com/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_rc_450series2_larg.gif

the 522 has a broader presence peak
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_522_content
Direct to curve
http://www.shure.com/stellent/groups/public/@gms_gmi_web_us/documents/web_resource/site_img_us_rc_522_large.gif

elements for these mics (and many others) are available at low cost as
replacement parts.

Heil sound plot their curves on a different log scale but after
accounting for that the similarities are remarkable.
http://www.heilsound.com/amateur/products/hc4/index.htm


The needs of paging systems which include efficient use of limited power
and maximum intelligibility in noisy environments are pretty much
identical to our requirements for effective SSB modulation. Any well
made paging/ Dispatch mic (or element..) is ideal for amateur radio use,
most are far more durable and cost effective than 'the made for ham
radio' stuff that is popular these days.  

>  Even the "high end" Ham mics only offer general and
> uninformative comments about "shaping" and "clarity" that say much and
> convey little.

These words (in ham radio use anyway) have become marketing speak and
now mean nothing. As a former audio professional I cannot understand why
all the hype about Audio in ham radio and to my ears there's a lot of
money wasted on trying to make SSB into something it isn't.
 
>  Interestingly, one of the big exceptions is the inexpensive
> little Radio Shack electret element. It comes with a frequency response
> chart showing a very flat response across the audio spectrum.

If you are looking for flat then these are a great place to start,
however the design of the housing may have quite an impact on how things
sound, this can be used to your advantage to create a presence peak or
LF roll off.

My own headset is based on a salvaged electret condenser mic with some
audio tailoring done by means of a simple R/C filter, being lazy I
copied the circuit of an Icom handmic. It works great and cost me almost
nothing.  

73's Brendan EI6IZ  

--
Don‘t complain. Nobody will understand. Or care. And certainly don‘t try
to fix the situation yourself. It‘s dangerous. Leave it to a highly
untrained, unqualified, expendable professional.

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[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Thanks for posting your interesting comments Brendan.

Within the context of SSB useage in ham radio I believe that the 'hype about
audio' could lead to another related problem, if not already existing, which
is poor use of the HF spectrum available to us. Given the proven fact that a
SSB transmitter filter bandwidth of 2.1 kHz will result in the transmission
of a very 'good quality' speech signal, provided that the carrier is
positioned properly and that the mic - audio - modulator system
characteristics suit human speech, I see no valid reason for using wider SSB
filters. In addition to the increased amount of spectrum used, the use of
wider filters followed by linear amplifiers whose IMD products might be only
30db or so below a test tone obviously results in a wider 'Interference
Bandwidth', and should be discouraged IMHO. Adding Reverse ALC to the mix
can further increase interference.

Just an opinion.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD


Brendan Minish  <[hidden email]> wrote:

<snip>

> These words (in ham radio use anyway) have become marketing speak and
> now mean nothing. As a former audio professional I cannot understand why
> all the hype about Audio in ham radio and to my ears there's a lot of
> money wasted on trying to make SSB into something it isn't.

 <snip>

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