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I just completed assembly of my K3S, KAT500, KPA500 and P3. I didn't order a microphone from Elecraft. I am considering a Heil PR-10 but will welcome any suggestions.
Bill - W3PNM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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My vote is for the EV RE320. It's more than adequate with my K2/100. Take care es...
Vy 73 de Bert WA2SI Sent from my android device. -----Original Message----- From: Bill DeVore <[hidden email]> To: [hidden email] Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2016 14:37 Subject: [Elecraft] Microphone I just completed assembly of my K3S, KAT500, KPA500 and P3. I didn't order a microphone from Elecraft. I am considering a Heil PR-10 but will welcome any suggestions. Bill - W3PNM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by w3pnm
Bill,
You could try a nice looking, computer headset with electret mic. You'll be amazed by the results. The K3 works well with just about any mic. Well done Elecraft. I never bought any handmic. But I own several headsets, a $4,50 plastic one (has a good mic), a Yamaha CM500 ($45, many K3 owners have that one, good mic) and a david clark aviation headset (several hundreds of dollars, good mic). The difference is in the ears of the headsets, all mics perform well, thanks to the EQ/gain/proc-setting possibilities in the K3. I take the plastic headset with me when camping, the CM500 in my quiet shack and the david clark when I'm working in a multi-operator contest with lots op people walking and talking. As far as mic-audio is concerned: how much hi-fi can you put through a 2.5kHz bandwidth SSB signal? Will the expensive Heil PR-10 make a real difference? For peace of mind: buy the Heil. 'My mic is is Heil PR-10' sounds quite different from "my mic is a cheap electret computermic'. :-) 73 Arie PA3A Op 13-10-2016 om 20:37 schreef Bill DeVore: > I just completed assembly of my K3S, KAT500, KPA500 and P3. I didn't order a microphone from Elecraft. I am considering a Heil PR-10 but will welcome any suggestions. > > Bill - W3PNM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by w3pnm
I use the PR-10 and got a lot of very good audio reports. Jim K4JAF
-----Original Message----- From: Bill DeVore Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 1:37 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] Microphone I just completed assembly of my K3S, KAT500, KPA500 and P3. I didn't order a microphone from Elecraft. I am considering a Heil PR-10 but will welcome any suggestions. Bill - W3PNM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2
The CM500 is the clear winner -- great sounding mic, great sounding
headphones are very comfortable. As a retired pro recording engineer, I own several dozen excellent mics. Anything more expensive that the CM500 is a waste of money. The EV RE320 someone suggested is a nice mic for broadcast work, but gross overkill for a ham station. 73, Jim K9YC On Thu,10/13/2016 12:40 PM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: > > I never bought any handmic. But I own several headsets, a $4,50 > plastic one (has a good mic), a Yamaha CM500 ($45, many K3 owners have > that one, good mic) and a david clark aviation headset (several > hundreds of dollars, good mic). > > The difference is in the ears of the headsets, ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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I’m still more of an audio professional than an accomplished ham, so I’ll ask while the thread is hot - why does ham gear use non-standard interconnects? Why don't Elecraft and others move to 3-pin XLR? Honestly, the bottom of my mic cabinet is probably overkill for ham, but the fact I have to get (or make) a custom adapter for even my least expensive mic irks me.
> On Oct 13, 2016, at 1:01 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote: > > The CM500 is the clear winner -- great sounding mic, great sounding headphones are very comfortable. As a retired pro recording engineer, I own several dozen excellent mics. Anything more expensive that the CM500 is a waste of money. The EV RE320 someone suggested is a nice mic for broadcast work, but gross overkill for a ham station. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > On Thu,10/13/2016 12:40 PM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: >> >> I never bought any handmic. But I own several headsets, a $4,50 plastic one (has a good mic), a Yamaha CM500 ($45, many K3 owners have that one, good mic) and a david clark aviation headset (several hundreds of dollars, good mic). >> >> The difference is in the ears of the headsets, > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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I suspect that most of today's radio's require more than three wires for
all the functions we expect. (:-) 73 K0PP On Oct 13, 2016 2:18 PM, "Michael Wong" <[hidden email]> wrote: > I’m still more of an audio professional than an accomplished ham, so I’ll > ask while the thread is hot - why does ham gear use non-standard > interconnects? Why don't Elecraft and others move to 3-pin XLR? Honestly, > the bottom of my mic cabinet is probably overkill for ham, but the fact I > have to get (or make) a custom adapter for even my least expensive mic irks > me. > > > > On Oct 13, 2016, at 1:01 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > > > The CM500 is the clear winner -- great sounding mic, great sounding > headphones are very comfortable. As a retired pro recording engineer, I > own several dozen excellent mics. Anything more expensive that the CM500 is > a waste of money. The EV RE320 someone suggested is a nice mic for > broadcast work, but gross overkill for a ham station. > > > > 73, Jim K9YC > > > > On Thu,10/13/2016 12:40 PM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: > >> > >> I never bought any handmic. But I own several headsets, a $4,50 plastic > one (has a good mic), a Yamaha CM500 ($45, many K3 owners have that one, > good mic) and a david clark aviation headset (several hundreds of dollars, > good mic). > >> > >> The difference is in the ears of the headsets, > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by w3pnm
Bill,
I have the CM500, and am very, very happy with it. I also use a Heil Gold Elite that was originally on my ProIII. I use the CM500 way more than the Heil. The EQ functionality in the K3S is superb, making any inexpensive microphone sound like a million bucks. Don't go overboard on the $$ for a microphone. Put that extra $$ towards antennas!! Gene N9TF K3S 10057 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill DeVore" <[hidden email]> To: "elecraft" <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 1:37:44 PM Subject: [Elecraft] Microphone I just completed assembly of my K3S, KAT500, KPA500 and P3. I didn't order a microphone from Elecraft. I am considering a Heil PR-10 but will welcome any suggestions. Bill - W3PNM ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by K2MAW
> why does ham gear use non-standard interconnects? Ham gear does not use "non-standard interconnects." Nearly every *communications* device ever made uses an unbalanced audio (mic) input - whether is be the old tube gear with their high impedance (think D-104 or Shure-444) mics or modern solid state gear with the low impedance inputs. Only broadcast and recording gear use balanced inputs with or without high voltage phantom power for condenser mics. Even general purpose public address systems tend to use unbalanced mic connections. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 10/13/2016 4:18 PM, Michael Wong wrote: > I’m still more of an audio professional than an accomplished ham, so I’ll ask while the thread is hot - why does ham gear use non-standard interconnects? Why don't Elecraft and others move to 3-pin XLR? Honestly, the bottom of my mic cabinet is probably overkill for ham, but the fact I have to get (or make) a custom adapter for even my least expensive mic irks me. > > >> On Oct 13, 2016, at 1:01 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> The CM500 is the clear winner -- great sounding mic, great sounding headphones are very comfortable. As a retired pro recording engineer, I own several dozen excellent mics. Anything more expensive that the CM500 is a waste of money. The EV RE320 someone suggested is a nice mic for broadcast work, but gross overkill for a ham station. >> >> 73, Jim K9YC >> >> On Thu,10/13/2016 12:40 PM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: >>> >>> I never bought any handmic. But I own several headsets, a $4,50 plastic one (has a good mic), a Yamaha CM500 ($45, many K3 owners have that one, good mic) and a david clark aviation headset (several hundreds of dollars, good mic). >>> >>> The difference is in the ears of the headsets, >> > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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The use of professional broadcasting and recording microphones is totally ridiculous overkill for ham radio application. On the air, these mics are indistinguishable from much cheaper units, if everything's adjusted properly. A ham who spends more than $75 on a mic because he feels he needs to to sound good is misinformed. However, one factor at play here may be the pride of sitting behind a big name mic as you transmit. I'm not going to take that away from any ham who wants that experience. Just don't claim that it makes you *sound* any better. It doesn't. R, Al W6LX ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by K2MAW
On 10/13/2016 1:18 PM, Michael Wong wrote:
> why does ham gear use non-standard interconnects? The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
Did not one of the Yaesu rigs have an balanced XLR connector? I had
this exact conversation with Bob Heil at Dayton a few years back Rich K3RWN On 10/13/2016 18:29 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > > > why does ham gear use non-standard interconnects? > > Ham gear does not use "non-standard interconnects." Nearly every > *communications* device ever made uses an unbalanced audio (mic) > input - whether is be the old tube gear with their high impedance > (think D-104 or Shure-444) mics or modern solid state gear with > the low impedance inputs. > > Only broadcast and recording gear use balanced inputs with or without > high voltage phantom power for condenser mics. Even general purpose > public address systems tend to use unbalanced mic connections. > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > On 10/13/2016 4:18 PM, Michael Wong wrote: >> I’m still more of an audio professional than an accomplished ham, so >> I’ll ask while the thread is hot - why does ham gear use non-standard >> interconnects? Why don't Elecraft and others move to 3-pin XLR? >> Honestly, the bottom of my mic cabinet is probably overkill for ham, >> but the fact I have to get (or make) a custom adapter for even my >> least expensive mic irks me. >> >> >>> On Oct 13, 2016, at 1:01 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> The CM500 is the clear winner -- great sounding mic, great sounding >>> headphones are very comfortable. As a retired pro recording >>> engineer, I own several dozen excellent mics. Anything more >>> expensive that the CM500 is a waste of money. The EV RE320 someone >>> suggested is a nice mic for broadcast work, but gross overkill for a >>> ham station. >>> >>> 73, Jim K9YC >>> >>> On Thu,10/13/2016 12:40 PM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: >>>> >>>> I never bought any handmic. But I own several headsets, a $4,50 >>>> plastic one (has a good mic), a Yamaha CM500 ($45, many K3 owners >>>> have that one, good mic) and a david clark aviation headset >>>> (several hundreds of dollars, good mic). >>>> >>>> The difference is in the ears of the headsets, >>> >> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
anyway do note that perusing Digikey & Mouser you will have a hard time finding ANY electret from the worlds electret makers ,,, that exceeds 5$ ..(.5 for 3$ ) except knowles a chicago based mfg of tiny mic elements. the cabinet /enclosure mic body, cable & windsreen add up ... so make your own.... take an old mic insert electret,,,, ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4
On Thu,10/13/2016 3:29 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> Only broadcast and recording gear use balanced inputs with or without > high voltage phantom power for condenser mics. Even general purpose > public address systems tend to use unbalanced mic connections. WRONG -- virtually all modern PA and sound reinforcement systems have used 3-pin XL connectors for more than 50 years. The exceptions are VERY CHEAP junk sold by places like Radio Shack, and those built into security systems. Most musical instrument amps have only unbalanced inputs. Back in the '70s, I was maintaining lots of paging systems professionally installed paging systems that used balanced mics and balanced wiring exclusively, and many of them had been in service for 20 years. I don't remember ever working on a PA system that used unbalanced mics except as lavalier mics connected to a wireless mic transmitter. Communications mics made by companies like Shure, EV, and Turner were/are made with output transformers that matched them to balanced low-Z inputs for use in professional systems and unbalanced hi-Z for use with ham radio, and PTT switches that can either be wired to key a transmitter or short/open the audio path. The Shure 444 is a great example -- the response is carefully tailored to roll off the low end and add a strong peak around 3 kHz to compensate the rolloff of the TX SSB filter. This response also works well for paging. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Hi Jim,
Gee Jim, I don't quite understand what your point is. You and I have always been agreeing that the use of professional audio microphones and other equipment for communications is not only a huge waste of money but also a big inconvenience; 3-pin XL is not a convenient connector for ham radio use. Who cares what PA and sound enforcement equipment equipment is using for a microphone connector. AB2TC - Knut
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In reply to this post by K2MAW
On Thu,10/13/2016 1:18 PM, Michael Wong wrote:
> I’m still more of an audio professional than an accomplished ham, so I’ll ask while the thread is hot - why does ham gear use non-standard interconnects? Why don't Elecraft and others move to 3-pin XLR? Two very good reasons -- panel real estate and the lack of NEED for pro mics. optimum SSB bandwidth for communications is 500 Hz - 3 kHz. All that low end does is suck TX power with no intelligibility gain. Virtually any ubalanced electret capsule or dynamic mic works very well with ham gear and sounds great. There is no need for pro mics with ham gear, and they cost a lot more than commonly used ham mics that sound quite good. All you need to run the electret is bias, which is applied to the mic output, about 8V through about 6K. Neither value is critical. This is exactly what we do for the lav capsules that are used with wireless mics. > Honestly, the bottom of my mic cabinet is probably overkill for ham, but the fact I have to get (or make) a custom adapter for even my least expensive mic irks me. I was in the same position 12 years ago when I got back on the air, and made a simple adapter to use an RE16 because I didn't own a ham mic. I continued to use it (on an AKG boom stand) until W6XU found and promoted the CM500. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In fact, I find modern transceivers including K3 are very accommodating to microphones. Professional broadcasting microphone is simply over killed for ham purposes. Sometimes, just a bit experiment, even with computer headset, you will get good results.
I sold all my Heil gears such as PR781. I am now using CM500 and a few low cost mics. I am not saying Heil is no good but too overkill for ham radio. 73 Johnny VR2XMC 寄件人︰ Jim Brown <[hidden email]> 收件人︰ 副本(CC)︰ [hidden email] 傳送日期︰ 2016年10月14日 (週五) 11:24 AM 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] Microphone On Thu,10/13/2016 1:18 PM, Michael Wong wrote: > I’m still more of an audio professional than an accomplished ham, so I’ll ask while the thread is hot - why does ham gear use non-standard interconnects? Why don't Elecraft and others move to 3-pin XLR? Two very good reasons -- panel real estate and the lack of NEED for pro mics. optimum SSB bandwidth for communications is 500 Hz - 3 kHz. All that low end does is suck TX power with no intelligibility gain. Virtually any ubalanced electret capsule or dynamic mic works very well with ham gear and sounds great. There is no need for pro mics with ham gear, and they cost a lot more than commonly used ham mics that sound quite good. All you need to run the electret is bias, which is applied to the mic output, about 8V through about 6K. Neither value is critical. This is exactly what we do for the lav capsules that are used with wireless mics. > Honestly, the bottom of my mic cabinet is probably overkill for ham, but the fact I have to get (or make) a custom adapter for even my least expensive mic irks me. I was in the same position 12 years ago when I got back on the air, and made a simple adapter to use an RE16 because I didn't own a ham mic. I continued to use it (on an AKG boom stand) until W6XU found and promoted the CM500. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2
On 13/10/16 20:40, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote:
> As far as mic-audio is concerned: how much hi-fi can you put through a > 2.5kHz bandwidth SSB signal? Not much. But there's more to microphone quality than frequency response. 1. Plosives. Will the mic handle poppy 'p' sounds without overloading? 2. Directionality. Is it directional? If not, you'll get more shack reverberation, fan noise and reflections from the desk (causing comb filter notches in the response). 3. Proximity effect. Will the mic increase LF as you get closer to it? If it's directional, yes it will, unless it's one of the Electro-Voice Variable-D types or similar. Omnis don't have proximity effect. 4. Handling noise. If hand-held, how much unwanted noise is generated as you move around? 5. Screening. Is it adequately screened? If not, it may be more prone to RF feedback. 73, Richard G4DYA ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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The point is: Using most any mic - from $10.99 to $500.00 - because it
is all in the way you set up the K3(S). Want a really super looking broadcast mic? Buy a $3 electret module and build a mic case to suit your visual dreams. Plastic, PVC, wood, resin, and IMAGINATION - and you rule! Bill W2BLC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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