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Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

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Jim AB3CV

Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
be connected to RX paths.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZSC-2-1BR%2B

It goes down to 100Khz and up to 400Mhz.

BNC connections and a rear bracket make it fit well with my setup.

Anyone see a problem with it?

Price seems reasonable for something built with a nice metal case, BNCs and
quality.

Suggestions?

73

jim ab3cv
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Don Wilhelm

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

Jim,

I don't understand how that will help with diversity.
You need two antennas that are oriented differently - usually one for
horizontal polarization and the other for vertical polarization.

One is connected to the subRX AUX antenna connection and the other
connects to the main RX. If the one connected to the
main is not your transmit antenna, connect it to the RX IN antenna
connection.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/6/2017 8:13 AM, Jim Miller wrote:
> I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
> be connected to RX paths.
>
> https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZSC-2-1BR%2B
>
> It goes down to 100Khz and up to 400Mhz.
>
> BNC connections and a rear bracket make it fit well with my setup.
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Cady, Fred-2

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

Jim may be wanting to use a RX antenna (to use as an RX antenna connected to the RX ANT input) at times plus wanting to use it at other times for diversity connected to the AUX RF BNC input.

I can't tell you anything about that splitter, though.

Cheers,

Fred KE7X

For all KE7X book, see www.ke7x.com.

________________________________
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, November 6, 2017 6:46 AM
To: Jim Miller; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

Jim,

I don't understand how that will help with diversity.
You need two antennas that are oriented differently - usually one for
horizontal polarization and the other for vertical polarization.

One is connected to the subRX AUX antenna connection and the other
connects to the main RX. If the one connected to the
main is not your transmit antenna, connect it to the RX IN antenna
connection.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/6/2017 8:13 AM, Jim Miller wrote:
> I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
> be connected to RX paths.
>
> https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZSC-2-1BR%2B
>
> It goes down to 100Khz and up to 400Mhz.
>
> BNC connections and a rear bracket make it fit well with my setup.
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Yngvi (TF3Y)

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV

Hi Jim.

I have the PSC-4-6+ which I put in my own enclosure. I use that together
with the DX-Engineering preamp.
Before that I was using the DX-Engineering 2-port splitter but I needed
more ports, i.e. this one https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-rsc-2 .

The MiniCircuits one works fine.They also have units going much higher in
frequency.

73, Yngvi TF3Y

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
> be connected to RX paths.
>
> https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZSC-2-1BR%2B
>
> It goes down to 100Khz and up to 400Mhz.
>
> BNC connections and a rear bracket make it fit well with my setup.
>
> Anyone see a problem with it?
>
> Price seems reasonable for something built with a nice metal case, BNCs and
> quality.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> 73
>
> jim ab3cv
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Leroy

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

I get no diversity benefit from using the same antenna. I get huge results
using a full wave 160mtr loop, and a sloper antenna.

Leroy AB7CE

-----Original Message-----
From: Yngvi (TF3Y)
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 8:47 AM
To: Jim Miller
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

Hi Jim.

I have the PSC-4-6+ which I put in my own enclosure. I use that together
with the DX-Engineering preamp.
Before that I was using the DX-Engineering 2-port splitter but I needed
more ports, i.e. this one https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-rsc-2 .

The MiniCircuits one works fine.They also have units going much higher in
frequency.

73, Yngvi TF3Y

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:13 PM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
> be connected to RX paths.
>
> https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZSC-2-1BR%2B
>
> It goes down to 100Khz and up to 400Mhz.
>
> BNC connections and a rear bracket make it fit well with my setup.
>
> Anyone see a problem with it?
>
> Price seems reasonable for something built with a nice metal case, BNCs
> and
> quality.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> 73
>
> jim ab3cv
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

--
http://www.tf3y.net
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wb6rse1

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV

On Nov 6, 2017, at 5:13 AM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
be connected to RX paths.
------------

No splitter necessary. Just "wire-or" the RX-IN and AUX-RF-IN together.

RX-ANT > OFF + SUB > HOLD to turn Diversity ON.

This assumes a second RX and a separate RX antenna.

73 - Steve WB6RSE

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Jim AB3CV

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV

I'll try this first. Block diagrams are a bit confusing. I'll study.

Thanks

jim ab3cv

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 11:20 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Nov 6, 2017, at 5:13 AM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
> be connected to RX paths.
> ------------
>
> No splitter necessary. Just "wire-or" the RX-IN and AUX-RF-IN together.
>
> RX-ANT > OFF + SUB > HOLD to turn Diversity ON.
>
> This assumes a second RX and a separate RX antenna.
>
> 73 - Steve WB6RSE
>
>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV

Mini-Circuits is a very good, well-established US company based in
Brooklyn, I think. For many years, I specified their 1x4 75 ohm
splitters to distribute RX antennas for the wireless mic systems I
designed for large performance spaces. I'm using some I found at a
hamfest flea market to distribute RX antennas in my station.

73, Jim K9YC

On 11/6/2017 5:13 AM, Jim Miller wrote:

Edward R Cole

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV

I looked at the link and opened the Data Sheet.
Splitter loss goes from about 3.2 to 4.0 dB in each arm (if
terminated) depending on frequency. Assuming use only on HF up to
30-MHz, 3.2 dB. Isolation of ports is above 25.99 dB which should
not result in any crosstalk problems (more an issue if used for
transmit). Limited to 1w max. Fine for receive.

But why would you connect both Rx to a single antenna? You can use
both Rx on ANT1 without a splitter.

Diversity implies two separate signal sources (two antenna). I do
dual polarity Rx on 144-MHz EME by feeding output of the horizontal
antenna to sub-Rx and vertical antenna to main Rx (via a two receiver
transverter). Special sw processes these two signal after SDR
conversion to IQ baseband and converted by four input soundcard to
digital. The software both decodes the digital signal (JT65B) and
resolves the actual polarity angle of the received signal to one
degree. If grid square info of station worked is input it also
recommends which polarity (Horz or Vert) to use for transmit. Much
more is involved but only germane to those doing eme.
http://www.kl7uw.com/MAP65.htm

I guess if you want two Rx to see the same antenna it would be a good
use, but that does not involve diversity mode.

73, Ed - KL7UW

Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:13:08 -0500
From: Jim Miller <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] Minicircuits splitter for diversity?
Message-ID:
<CACYeN9wwWCHepsfWZJEMME0K=[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
be connected to RX paths.

https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZSC-2-1BR%2B

It goes down to 100Khz and up to 400Mhz.

BNC connections and a rear bracket make it fit well with my setup.

Anyone see a problem with it?

Price seems reasonable for something built with a nice metal case, BNCs and
quality.

Suggestions?

73

jim ab3cv

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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Michael Walker

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

Is that any different than your basic cable splitter other than it has BNC
and not F connectors?

Mike

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I looked at the link and opened the Data Sheet.
> Splitter loss goes from about 3.2 to 4.0 dB in each arm (if terminated)
> depending on frequency. Assuming use only on HF up to 30-MHz, 3.2 dB.
> Isolation of ports is above 25.99 dB which should not result in any
> crosstalk problems (more an issue if used for transmit). Limited to 1w
> max. Fine for receive.
>
> But why would you connect both Rx to a single antenna? You can use both
> Rx on ANT1 without a splitter.
>
> Diversity implies two separate signal sources (two antenna). I do dual
> polarity Rx on 144-MHz EME by feeding output of the horizontal antenna to
> sub-Rx and vertical antenna to main Rx (via a two receiver transverter).
> Special sw processes these two signal after SDR conversion to IQ baseband
> and converted by four input soundcard to digital. The software both
> decodes the digital signal (JT65B) and resolves the actual polarity angle
> of the received signal to one degree. If grid square info of station
> worked is input it also recommends which polarity (Horz or Vert) to use for
> transmit. Much more is involved but only germane to those doing eme.
> http://www.kl7uw.com/MAP65.htm
>
> I guess if you want two Rx to see the same antenna it would be a good use,
> but that does not involve diversity mode.
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
>
> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:13:08 -0500
> From: Jim Miller <[hidden email]>
> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] Minicircuits splitter for diversity?
> Message-ID:
> <CACYeN9wwWCHepsfWZJEMME0K=[hidden email]
> ail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I'm looking at this splitter to set up diversity for my K3s. It will only
> be connected to RX paths.
>
> https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=ZSC-2-1BR%2B
>
> It goes down to 100Khz and up to 400Mhz.
>
> BNC connections and a rear bracket make it fit well with my setup.
>
> Anyone see a problem with it?
>
> Price seems reasonable for something built with a nice metal case, BNCs and
> quality.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> 73
>
> jim ab3cv
>
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
> Dubus-NA Business mail:
> [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

ab2tc

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

Hi,

Well yes. I would not trust the Cable TV splitters to be any good below
30MHz. They are not designed for frequencies that low. Specs are typically
unavailable. As Jim says, Mini-Circuits is a very very reputable US brand
that has been around, well, forever. They cost a lot more but there are
published specs and BTW, would you really like to use "F" connectors in the
shack? I wouldn't.

AB2TC - Knut

Michael Walker wrote
> Is that any different than your basic cable splitter other than it has BNC
> and not F connectors?
>
> Mike
> <snip>

--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Michael Walker

No -- the Mini-Circuits splitters provide significant isolation between
the ports so that, for example, a local oscillator on one port isn't fed
to the other port(s). The degree of this is the dB spec for isolation.

73, Jim K9YC

On 11/6/2017 12:21 PM, Michael Walker wrote:
> Is that any different than your basic cable splitter other than it has BNC
> and not F connectors?

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Michael Walker

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by ab2tc

I'm going to sweep one just to see what it looks like below 30mhz.

Mike

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 3:42 PM, ab2tc <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Well yes. I would not trust the Cable TV splitters to be any good below
> 30MHz. They are not designed for frequencies that low. Specs are typically
> unavailable. As Jim says, Mini-Circuits is a very very reputable US brand
> that has been around, well, forever. They cost a lot more but there are
> published specs and BTW, would you really like to use "F" connectors in the
> shack? I wouldn't.
>
> AB2TC - Knut
>
>
> Michael Walker wrote
> > Is that any different than your basic cable splitter other than it has
> BNC
> > and not F connectors?
> >
> > Mike
> > <snip>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by ab2tc

On 11/6/2017 12:42 PM, ab2tc wrote:
> would you really like to use "F" connectors in the
> shack? I wouldn't.

Actually, F connectors are widely used with RX antennas and RX antenna
products, and are the best method to terminate the CATV cables widely
used for our RX antennas. It IS, however, important to use decent
stripping and crimping tools and good quality connectors that match the
cable you're using. The CATV industry likes SnapNSeal branded
connectors. It's also important that they be correctly installed. There
are utube videos demonstrating this.

Here's a listing for connectors that fit the flooded Commscope CATV RG6
cable.

https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Betts-Belden-Ultimate-Connectors/dp/B002OFA8AG

I'm still using a stripping tool and a compression tool that I bought 15
years ago. This one is similar to it.

https://www.amazon.com/Coax-Compression-Connector-Kit-Connectors/dp/B005232UF8/ref=sr_1_9?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1510006728&sr=1-9&keywords=snap+n+seal+tools

This looks like the expensive compression tool I bought 15 years ago.

https://www.amazon.com/Installation-Tool-RG-59-RG-6-Snap-N-Seal/dp/B000PJJ5FC/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1510006728&sr=1-1&keywords=snap+n+seal+tools

I bought a compression tool that looks like the one in this listing that
works just as well.

https://www.amazon.com/ESUMIC-Compression-Connector-Stripper-connectors/dp/B015ZG1IHW/ref=sr_1_6?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1510007129&sr=1-6&keywords=f-connector+compression+tool

Note that these tools are not the exact ones I own, but they illustrate
the concepts.

73, Jim K9YC

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Alan Bloom

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

And don't forget that the isolation spec assumes a perfectd 50-ohm
termination on all ports. For example if one of the ports is seeing a
load with a 10 dB return loss, then the isolation will be no better than
10 dB.

Alan N1AL

On 2017-11-06 13:06, Jim Brown wrote:

> No -- the Mini-Circuits splitters provide significant isolation between the ports so that, for example, a local oscillator on one port isn't fed to the other port(s). The degree of this is the dB spec for isolation.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 11/6/2017 12:21 PM, Michael Walker wrote:
>
>> Is that any different than your basic cable splitter other than it has BNC
>> and not F connectors?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

OK, Let's talk about the isolation charteristics of just transformer splitters and REAL HP/LP duplexers. With splitters, I think you are subject to mismatch isolation problems if the loads are not matched. Same with Duplexers, but most desighs allow for some matching, at least the ones I design do.
Mel, K6KBE

From: Alan Bloom <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, November 6, 2017 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

And don't forget that the isolation spec assumes a perfectd 50-ohm
termination on all ports. For example if one of the ports is seeing a
load with a 10 dB return loss, then the isolation will be no better than
10 dB.

Alan N1AL

On 2017-11-06 13:06, Jim Brown wrote:

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Alan Bloom

Right. Or 75 ohms for 75 ohm splitters and systems. I always specified
low loss CATV RG6 for wireless mic systems, and most ham RX systems are
designed around 75 ohms. The reason is simple -- we can buy much better
75 ohm cables at much lower prices than what we would have to pay for 50
ohm cable. Phat Satellite, for example, sells 1,000 ft spools of
flooded Commscope RG6 for less than $100, including shipping.

73, Jim K9YC

On 11/6/2017 4:41 PM, Alan Bloom wrote:
>
> And don't forget that the isolation spec assumes a perfectd 50-ohm
> termination on all ports. For example if one of the ports is seeing a
> load with a 10 dB return loss, then the isolation will be no better
> than 10 dB.
>
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Michael Walker

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

Yep, 1000ft of RG11 direct burial for $100 on Amazon. Good enough for HF
on any day.

Mike va3mw

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Right. Or 75 ohms for 75 ohm splitters and systems. I always specified
> low loss CATV RG6 for wireless mic systems, and most ham RX systems are
> designed around 75 ohms. The reason is simple -- we can buy much better 75
> ohm cables at much lower prices than what we would have to pay for 50 ohm
> cable. Phat Satellite, for example, sells 1,000 ft spools of flooded
> Commscope RG6 for less than $100, including shipping.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 11/6/2017 4:41 PM, Alan Bloom wrote:
>
>>
>> And don't forget that the isolation spec assumes a perfectd 50-ohm
>> termination on all ports. For example if one of the ports is seeing a load
>> with a 10 dB return loss, then the isolation will be no better than 10 dB.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Jim AB3CV

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

In reply to this post by Jim AB3CV

As a follow up:

Thanks for all the suggestions.

It appears I really don't want a splitter after all once I looked over all
the schematics on the K3s and Fred's nice book.

I can't use my TX antenna as one of the antennas in a diversity setup since
it is far too close to my RX vertical array. So when listening I detune my
TX antenna. And of course it not only lacks sufficient distance but is of
the same polarization as my RX array. I only have 1 acre here and my
antennas are pretty much limited to the rear half of the lot.

I've done more research and it seems that for 160 the usual suspects are
all vertically polarized: small loops, beverages, K9AY. So what I really
need is something with horizontal polarization and so far that means a
dipole. Not clear that a lowish, short dipole will hear much on 160. It
might be useful for 80m however and I have height and space for that.

Or I need to buy a couple more acres if I want to do something useful with
diversity on 160.

73

jim ab3cv

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:13 AM, Jim Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jim Brown-10

Re: Minicircuits splitter for diversity?

On 11/9/2017 3:42 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
> I can't use my TX antenna as one of the antennas in a diversity setup since
> it is far too close to my RX vertical array. So when listening I detune my
> TX antenna. And of course it not only lacks sufficient distance but is of
> the same polarization as my RX array. I only have 1 acre here and my
> antennas are pretty much limited to the rear half of the lot.

Not necessarily true. Look at the VE3DO loop on my website. I have two
loops phased with an NCC-1, but I often use one or both of them in
diversity with one of my TX verticals. Spacing between them is only
about 100 ft. Consider using one of these loops in diversity with your
TX antenna.

> I've done more research and it seems that for 160 the usual suspects are
> all vertically polarized: small loops, beverages, K9AY.

I get good diversity between verticals.

> So what I really
> need is something with horizontal polarization and so far that means a
> dipole. Not clear that a lowish, short dipole will hear much on 160. It
> might be useful for 80m however and I have height and space for that.

Horizontal dipoles, even low ones, can be good RX antennas. For 160
contests, N6RO patches lots of his antennas for other bands to his
operating position for RX and switches between them. Note the difference
in the vertical pattern of the VE3DO loop and a Beverage, or of a
vertical. The VE3DO loop has a lot of high angle, whereas the TX
vertical has a much lower vertical pattern. Signals may arrive high
during one part of an opening and low at a different time. Don't get
hung up on polarization, and don't let the ideal be the enemy of the good.

Last spring, I bought an 8x2 RX antenna switcher, and started using it
on the lower bands, especially 160-40. Around the same time, I rigged
the VE3DO loops and ran them to an NCC-1. Anything worth doing is worth
doing to excess. :) Every time I dig for a weak signal or try to kill
QRM or noise I learn something new.

Also remember that slow fading (what has long been called selective
fading) on the lower bands is really the cancellation of two arrivals of
the same signal arriving that have traveled slightly different paths,
and are thus shifted in time from each other. The phase difference
between them will be different at every point in space, so when they are
equal and 180 out of phase at one point, they often will not be at
another point. The deep nulls in a fade are with the signals are very
precisely equal and very precisely 180 out. Without that precision,
there will be far less cancellation, and it doesn't take much a lot
difference to make the null far less deep. Picket-fencing at VHF and UHF
is exactly the same phenomenon -- the difference in the period of the
fade is entirely due to wavelength.

73, Jim K9YC

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