Mobile from 117 VAC
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Previous threads provided a great deal of info about arranging automobile electrical systems to power HF rigs. But as I recall, it all focused on using the battery / alternator supply for the 13 VDC. Though I wanted to go mobile and still do, for a number of reasons I could not configure my car to do it properly. I am now thinking of buying a new SUV which has 117 VAC outlets in its rear cargo space. That makes me wonder – could I just use an ordinary 117 VAC to 13 VDC power supply, exactly as I do at home, just plug it in and – staying within the car’s rated current draw – operate without worrying about where the ground goes vis-à-vis the battery, what-all needs to be bonded with what-all-else, how everything needs to be mummified in ferrite, etc? Or are the problems all the same even though different? My objective is simple. I want to be able to drive to a rare county, set up my buddipole in a parking lot, and use either a XX3/KXPA or a K2/100 to knock out some CW QSOs. I do NOT want to take an electric drill or a rivet gun to a new car.
Has anyone gone mobile using a car’s 117 VAC outlets? Any thoughts to share? Any thoughts from anyone who for any reason hasn’t done it? Ted, KN1CBR (operating this week as N0A in the NAQCC anniversary event. Give a call if you hear me. Mostly 20 or 40 CW) Tnx. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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The 117V AC may be produced by the vehicle using an inverter similar to those sold as separate devices. Years ago I was using one of those and found out that they would not allow the ground pin on the AC outlet to be connected to the 12V minus connection. If that is the case, you would have to be careful hooking things up.
73, Erik K7TV -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dauer, Edward Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2017 8:19 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC Previous threads provided a great deal of info about arranging automobile electrical systems to power HF rigs. But as I recall, it all focused on using the battery / alternator supply for the 13 VDC. Though I wanted to go mobile and still do, for a number of reasons I could not configure my car to do it properly. I am now thinking of buying a new SUV which has 117 VAC outlets in its rear cargo space. That makes me wonder – could I just use an ordinary 117 VAC to 13 VDC power supply, exactly as I do at home, just plug it in and – staying within the car’s rated current draw – operate without worrying about where the ground goes vis-à-vis the battery, what-all needs to be bonded with what-all-else, how everything needs to be mummified in ferrite, etc? Or are the problems all the same even though different? My objective is simple. I want to be able to drive to a rare county, set up my buddipole in a parking lot, and use either a XX3/KXPA or a K2/100 to knock out some CW QSOs. I do NOT want to take an electric drill or a rivet gun to a new car. Has anyone gone mobile using a car’s 117 VAC outlets? Any thoughts to share? Any thoughts from anyone who for any reason hasn’t done it? Ted, KN1CBR (operating this week as N0A in the NAQCC anniversary event. Give a call if you hear me. Mostly 20 or 40 CW) Tnx. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer
DC to AC inverters are notoriously noisy EMI/RFI-wise, even the so-called pure sine wave units. There's a good chance you'll have spurs right where you're trying to listen.
There *are* good units out there, but they're not cheap, and you'll still have to go through the exercise of proper cabling & bonding in order to realize a quality installation. Al, K2ZN Sent via mobile ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by K7TV
Although when using our travel trailer, I operate the radio from the 12V
battery system, I do have installed a 12 volt to 120 volt pure sine wave inverter. This takes care of things such as computer, microwave, TV's and of course the all required "hair dryer" and etc. The unit is rated at 2KW. I've located it very near the battery using #4AWG copper for battery connections. I've made provisions to switch the entire trailer over between "external" power and "internal" power. We often camp where there is no electric service and may not be able to run the generator due to "quiet hours". Overall the unit works well, seems to be about 85% efficient based on load, and is reasonably RF noise free. As to 120 VAC provided in vehicles........I don't have any history or knowledge. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 10/9/2017 12:48 AM, Erik Basilier wrote: > The 117V AC may be produced by the vehicle using an inverter similar to those sold as separate devices. Years ago I was using one of those and found out that they would not allow the ground pin on the AC outlet to be connected to the 12V minus connection. If that is the case, you would have to be careful hooking things up. > > 73, > Erik K7TV > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dauer, Edward > Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2017 8:19 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC > > Previous threads provided a great deal of info about arranging automobile electrical systems to power HF rigs. But as I recall, it all focused on using the battery / alternator supply for the 13 VDC. Though I wanted to go mobile and still do, for a number of reasons I could not configure my car to do it properly. I am now thinking of buying a new SUV which has 117 VAC outlets in its rear cargo space. That makes me wonder – could I just use an ordinary 117 VAC to 13 VDC power supply, exactly as I do at home, just plug it in and – staying within the car’s rated current draw – operate without worrying about where the ground goes vis-à-vis the battery, what-all needs to be bonded with what-all-else, how everything needs to be mummified in ferrite, etc? Or are the problems all the same even though different? My objective is simple. I want to be able to drive to a rare county, set up my buddipole in a parking lot, and use either a XX3/KXPA or a K2/100 to knock out some CW QSOs. I do NOT want to take an electric drill or a rivet gun to a new car. > > Has anyone gone mobile using a car’s 117 VAC outlets? Any thoughts to share? Any thoughts from anyone who for any reason hasn’t done it? > > Ted, KN1CBR (operating this week as N0A in the NAQCC anniversary event. Give a call if you hear me. Mostly 20 or 40 CW) > > Tnx. > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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This is entirely unnecessary. Use the cigarette lighter and MFJ power
conditioner. While you radio requires 20A peak, the power conditioner reduces it to about 8 A average, which the cigarette lighter will do easily. Ignacy, NO9E -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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I used a Swan 14A converter way back when. Never noticed any bad hash. Just
the whine when I keyed down. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Rick Genesis 1-29 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Ignacy
Overall, not a great plan.
Using an inverter, you will introduce RF noise, generate heat and poor regulation, unless you get a quality inverter (not cheap). It's inefficient too and space wasteful. If you use a power port (no longer called cigarette plugs), you will again introduce noise for your radio because they seldom have decent chassis bonding. They are also low amperage capable and you can exceed that (check the owner manual or the fuse block), even if momentarily. Often they are also part of the vehicle systems array, so you'll get noises and generate issues to/from the vehicle electronics, some of which are rather spendy to repair. In the long run, it's best (and least expense) to simply run the (fused at both ends, both wires) power cable to a known, chassis bonded source. Power is NOT a place to cheap out. If you're QRP, it's simple, the wires aren't huge, check your IR^2 losses over the run (make sure there is no voltage drop AT the radio). Hint: Make sure EVERYTHING, power at the source, power at the radio, the radio itself AND the antenna are properly RF bonded (not DC) to the vehicle and you'll have less issues, which translates into more fun. Rick NHC On 10/9/2017 8:46 AM, Ignacy wrote: > This is entirely unnecessary. Use the cigarette lighter and MFJ power > conditioner. While you radio requires 20A peak, the power conditioner > reduces it to about 8 A average, which the cigarette lighter will do easily. > Ignacy, NO9E > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer
It doesn't sound like you are operating mobile at all if your antenna is a Buddipole in a parking lot. Leave the vehicle turned off. No ignition noise or bonding to worry about. If that limits your operating time, carry another battery to power the rig (maybe a gel cell for safety) when you are parked. You can rig up a connection to the vehicle charging system to recharge the extra battery on the way to the next county. Your SUV either has a hitch or wiring for one where you can pick up a connection to the alternator. That's how a trailer battery is recharged.
Eric KE6US On 10/8/2017 8:19 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote: Previous threads provided a great deal of info about arranging automobile electrical systems to power HF rigs. But as I recall, it all focused on using the battery / alternator supply for the 13 VDC. Though I wanted to go mobile and still do, for a number of reasons I could not configure my car to do it properly. I am now thinking of buying a new SUV which has 117 VAC outlets in its rear cargo space. That makes me wonder – could I just use an ordinary 117 VAC to 13 VDC power supply, exactly as I do at home, just plug it in and – staying within the car’s rated current draw – operate without worrying about where the ground goes vis-à-vis the battery, what-all needs to be bonded with what-all-else, how everything needs to be mummified in ferrite, etc? Or are the problems all the same even though different? My objective is simple. I want to be able to drive to a rare county, set up my buddipole in a parking lot, and use either a XX3/KXPA or a K2/100 to knock out some CW QSOs. I do NOT want to take an electric drill or a rivet gun to a new car. Has anyone gone mobile using a car’s 117 VAC outlets? Any thoughts to share? Any thoughts from anyone who for any reason hasn’t done it? Ted, KN1CBR (operating this week as N0A in the NAQCC anniversary event. Give a call if you hear me. Mostly 20 or 40 CW) Tnx. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
For a 100 watt PEP HF radio or like VHF/UHF radio, the correct solution
is a 3 wire system. Positive - connected and fused at the battery and radio ends, Negative - connected and fused at the battery and radio ends, AND a 3rd wire connected to the firewall/frame {not battery negative} of the vehicle and connected to the ground terminal on the radio. Usually there is a rubber boot or grommet in the firewall just to the left or right where the steering column passes through the firewall. It is easy to push the needed wiring through this grommet. Thus installation complete and no holes drilled, and one has a proper and safe electrical source for the radio. 73 Bob, K4TAX ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by EricJ-2
Only if you have another counterpoise prepared other than the vehicle;
otherwise it all needs to be bonded to the vehicle to raise the (already meager) antenna efficiency. Short HF vehicular antennas only run in the lower single digit efficiencies, Buddipole or not. You have to do all you can to make it at all. Just because it loads and shows a good SWR doesn't mean it's working well, even a dummy load has a good match. Mobile HF is an art. Rick nhc On 10/9/2017 9:48 AM, Eric J wrote: > No ignition noise or bonding to worry about. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
On 10/9/2017 9:00 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:
> Overall, not a great plan. > > Using an inverter, you will introduce RF noise, generate heat and poor > regulation, I've used "good" ones (Samlex "pure sine wave" with FCC Part 15 Class B certification) and they ARE NOISY. Using a lot of ferrite cores got their smallest one (100W) quiet enough on 40-6M to run the logging computer for a CW QSO party mobile operation. > > If you use a power port (no longer called cigarette plugs), you will > again introduce noise for your radio because they seldom have decent > chassis bonding. Chassis bonding is NOT a solution to noise in a vehicle. Noise does not come in on the power wiring, it comes in on the ANTENNA. Indeed, there is no good reason to bond a radio to the chassis of a vehicle. > They are also low amperage capable and you can exceed that (check the > owner manual or the fuse block), even if momentarily. Often they are > also part of the vehicle systems array, so you'll get noises and > generate issues to/from the vehicle electronics, some of which are > rather spendy to repair. Many of the systems in a vehicle can generate noise, and some can be quite sensitive to RF. One of the on-board computers in my Toyota Sequoia (big SUV, same as their pickup) went into "limp home" mode when I called CQ on 20M with 100W into a Ham Stick mounted to rear side rail on the roof. Top speed became 15 mph. I learned this while driving I-80 through the Nevada desert between Salt Lake City and Reno. Not a great place to break down. I got running again by pulling the positive lead off the battery and reconnecting it, which rebooted the victim computer. But this is an RF problem, NOT a power problem. When we run mobile, the only chassis bond that matters is the bond of the coax braid to conductive parts of the vehicle at the antenna. This provides the antenna with a counterpoise -- that is, the vehicle becomes a very necessary part of the antenna. This causes RF current to flow on those conductive parts of the vehicle chassis and body -- IF those body parts are connected together. And that's a BIG IF, because most body parts are insulated from each other by PAINT! > In the long run, it's best (and least expense) to simply run the > (fused at both ends, both wires) power cable to a known, chassis > bonded source. Power is NOT a place to cheap out. If you're QRP, > it's simple, the wires aren't huge, check your IR^2 losses over the > run (make sure there is no voltage drop AT the radio). I agree that I wouldn't power anything bigger than a talkie or receiver from a lighter plug. FAR better to run a beefy copper pair directly to the battery. NEVER, NEVER use the vehicle chassis as a return for DC. Doing so causes the positive lead to form a large magnetic loop with the chassis return, AND causing it to act as an antenna. > Hint: Make sure EVERYTHING, power at the source, power at the radio, > the radio itself AND the antenna are properly RF bonded (not DC) to > the vehicle and you'll have less issues Again, the radio is NOT the sensitive element here, it's the ANTENNA, which includes the chassis and other conductive parts. It IS important that -12V be bonded at the battery, but it is NOT useful to bond the radio. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
On 10/9/2017 9:56 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:
> Mobile HF is an art. No, it is SCIENCE. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
My RV has a 3 KW inverter; I've not noted noises from it on any band but
it was NOT cheap and it has it's own battery supply (not the house battery) and the radio has it's own battery supply. There is no physical contact, only proximity. We're not in disagreement here but we're approaching it from different angles (you have the formal training, we both have some experiences). My rule: Bond EVERYTHING to the chassis, including chassis elements to each other (paint is a pretty good insulator). While that does have a *small* effect on noise (the every wire IS an antenna consideration); mostly bonding is to keep the RF (more correctly RFI) out of systems where it doesn't belong , including induction and radiation along the power cabling; to radiate from the antenna (while power sources are also another good place to provide some twist in the cable). More bonding means more energy to the (intended) antenna and higher efficiencies. When running >QRP the radio bonding can greatly reduce the effects in the radio from RFI. Simply bonding the 200W RF deck in my truck to the chassis removed >90% of the RFI (except 40 meters sometimes turns off the cruise control). The control cable and the mic cable each have ferrites in place; they weren't enough. So we will disagree on your last point; my experience in that install provides that. It's all within 7' of the antenna, hard to keep that any cleaner with that level of exposure. The good news is that the newer vehicles have less cabling since wiring is replaced with fiber optics. The bad news is that there is more 'stuff' in a newer vehicle to generate and be sensitive to RFI. I'd score that as a wash. 73, Rick nhc On 10/9/2017 10:06 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 10/9/2017 9:00 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: >> Overall, not a great plan. >> >> Using an inverter, you will introduce RF noise, generate heat and >> poor regulation, > > I've used "good" ones (Samlex "pure sine wave" with FCC Part 15 Class > B certification) and they ARE NOISY. Using a lot of ferrite cores got > their smallest one (100W) quiet enough on 40-6M to run the logging > computer for a CW QSO party mobile operation. > >> >> If you use a power port (no longer called cigarette plugs), you will >> again introduce noise for your radio because they seldom have decent >> chassis bonding. > > Chassis bonding is NOT a solution to noise in a vehicle. Noise does > not come in on the power wiring, it comes in on the ANTENNA. Indeed, > there is no good reason to bond a radio to the chassis of a vehicle. > >> They are also low amperage capable and you can exceed that (check the >> owner manual or the fuse block), even if momentarily. Often they are >> also part of the vehicle systems array, so you'll get noises and >> generate issues to/from the vehicle electronics, some of which are >> rather spendy to repair. > > Many of the systems in a vehicle can generate noise, and some can be > quite sensitive to RF. One of the on-board computers in my Toyota > Sequoia (big SUV, same as their pickup) went into "limp home" mode > when I called CQ on 20M with 100W into a Ham Stick mounted to rear > side rail on the roof. Top speed became 15 mph. I learned this while > driving I-80 through the Nevada desert between Salt Lake City and > Reno. Not a great place to break down. I got running again by pulling > the positive lead off the battery and reconnecting it, which rebooted > the victim computer. > > But this is an RF problem, NOT a power problem. When we run mobile, > the only chassis bond that matters is the bond of the coax braid to > conductive parts of the vehicle at the antenna. This provides the > antenna with a counterpoise -- that is, the vehicle becomes a very > necessary part of the antenna. This causes RF current to flow on those > conductive parts of the vehicle chassis and body -- IF those body > parts are connected together. And that's a BIG IF, because most body > parts are insulated from each other by PAINT! > >> In the long run, it's best (and least expense) to simply run the >> (fused at both ends, both wires) power cable to a known, chassis >> bonded source. Power is NOT a place to cheap out. If you're QRP, >> it's simple, the wires aren't huge, check your IR^2 losses over the >> run (make sure there is no voltage drop AT the radio). > > I agree that I wouldn't power anything bigger than a talkie or > receiver from a lighter plug. FAR better to run a beefy copper pair > directly to the battery. NEVER, NEVER use the vehicle chassis as a > return for DC. Doing so causes the positive lead to form a large > magnetic loop with the chassis return, AND causing it to act as an > antenna. > >> Hint: Make sure EVERYTHING, power at the source, power at the radio, >> the radio itself AND the antenna are properly RF bonded (not DC) to >> the vehicle and you'll have less issues > > Again, the radio is NOT the sensitive element here, it's the ANTENNA, > which includes the chassis and other conductive parts. It IS important > that -12V be bonded at the battery, but it is NOT useful to bond the > radio. > > 73, Jim K9YC > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
It's both. ;-)
Rick nhc On 10/9/2017 10:07 AM, Jim Brown wrote: > On 10/9/2017 9:56 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: >> Mobile HF is an art. > > No, it is SCIENCE. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
If your intent is to operate portable (buddipole in a parking lot) as
opposed to mobile, then none of the issues you described about bonding, ferrites, vehicle electrical systems, etc come into play anyhow. Just use the 12v from the vehicle battery (fused of course). You can operate quite awhile that way even with the vehicle turned off to eliminate electrical noise from the vehicle. All built in inverters that I've seen in vehicles require the vehicle to be running. Most are relatively limited in power handling as well. If you do decide to plug a power supply into that vehicle inverter, make sure the inverter can handle the load. I don't see that it makes much sense to go that route, though. On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:10 PM Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote: > On 10/9/2017 9:56 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: > > Mobile HF is an art. > > No, it is SCIENCE. > > 73, Jim K9YC > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
I’m curious for the bonding guys..
Are you connecting the “ground” of the AC mains to the ground of the 12VDC as well as the ground on the inverter? Frank > On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:34 PM, Rick WA6NHC <[hidden email]> wrote: > > It's both. ;-) > > Rick nhc > > > On 10/9/2017 10:07 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >> On 10/9/2017 9:56 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: >>> Mobile HF is an art. >> >> No, it is SCIENCE. >> >> 73, Jim K9YC >> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
Try holding the ALT key while typing 253 to get the exponent as in "IR²"
Similarly, ALT 0185, then 0186 for "XX¹º". I'm not sure this works with all systems, or, if it even translates correctly, but in my DELL running Outlook, I have access to a whole bunch of handy items by holding down the ALT key while typing a 3 or 4 digit number. For example: λ, ¢, £, ¥, π, Σ, Ω, ü,¼, ½, Ø,Δ, ÷, √. 73, Charlie k3ICH -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rick WA6NHC Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 12:00 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC Overall, not a great plan. Using an inverter, you will introduce RF noise, generate heat and poor regulation, unless you get a quality inverter (not cheap). It's inefficient too and space wasteful. If you use a power port (no longer called cigarette plugs), you will again introduce noise for your radio because they seldom have decent chassis bonding. They are also low amperage capable and you can exceed that (check the owner manual or the fuse block), even if momentarily. Often they are also part of the vehicle systems array, so you'll get noises and generate issues to/from the vehicle electronics, some of which are rather spendy to repair. In the long run, it's best (and least expense) to simply run the (fused at both ends, both wires) power cable to a known, chassis bonded source. Power is NOT a place to cheap out. If you're QRP, it's simple, the wires aren't huge, check your IR^2 losses over the run (make sure there is no voltage drop AT the radio). Hint: Make sure EVERYTHING, power at the source, power at the radio, the radio itself AND the antenna are properly RF bonded (not DC) to the vehicle and you'll have less issues, which translates into more fun. Rick NHC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2
It IS critical that all conductive parts of the vehicle be bonded
together. It is critical for two reasons. First, because those parts carry antenna current on both TX and RX, and to be effective as a counterpoise, they must have good electrical contact. You're absolutely right about paint. It's a HUGE issue. Second, good EMC design calls for cables supporting signals for sensitive circuits to be run in close proximity to a "ground" plane. Noise current is coupled far better to the much larger ground plane than to the cables. But this falls apart if there is a break in the "ground" plane, greatly increasing coupling to/from those cables. This mechanism is a likely cause (or contributing cause) to my 20M RF locking up the computer in my Toyota. And, of course, it has long been good practice to bond the tail pipe to minimize old fashioned automotive noise. :) 73, Jim K9YC On 10/9/2017 10:33 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: > My rule: Bond EVERYTHING to the chassis, including chassis elements > to each other (paint is a pretty good insulator). While that does > have a *small* effect on noise (the every wire IS an antenna > consideration); mostly bonding is to keep the RF (more correctly RFI) > out of systems where it doesn't belong , including induction and > radiation along the power cabling; to radiate from the antenna (while > power sources are also another good place to provide some twist in the > cable). More bonding means more energy to the (intended) antenna and > higher efficiencies. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Frank Krozel
Frank: Are you referring to AC ground {green wire} or AC neutral
{white wire}? In my installation the battery negative is connected via a green wire to the trailer frame. The battery negative is also connected to the DC distribution panel via a #4 black wire. From the DC to AC inverter, the AC ground terminal is connected to the trailer frame and the AC neutral goes to the AC power distribution panel neutral buss bar just as a residential home. In effect the AC neutral is not connected to the trailer frame. 73 Bob, K4TAX On 10/9/2017 12:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > I’m curious for the bonding guys.. > Are you connecting the “ground” of the AC mains to the ground of the 12VDC as well as the ground on the inverter? > Frank > >> On Oct 9, 2017, at 12:34 PM, Rick WA6NHC <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> It's both. ;-) >> >> Rick nhc >> >> >> On 10/9/2017 10:07 AM, Jim Brown wrote: >>> On 10/9/2017 9:56 AM, Rick WA6NHC wrote: >>>> Mobile HF is an art. >>> No, it is SCIENCE. >>> >>> 73, Jim K9YC >>> >>> ______________________________________________________________ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >>> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >>> Message delivered to [hidden email] >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10
"This
mechanism is a likely cause (or contributing cause) to my 20M RF locking up the computer in my Toyota." I'm sort of amazed, I remember when the Camry came out in the 80's there was a lot said about how 20W from a 2M radio would kill the computer and Toyota wouldn't warranty that. It was mentioned in QST and Toyota lost a lot of sales (Including any to me) and back then, said they would resolve the issue. Haven't bought a Toyota since then but it appears they still don't care. 73, Gary KA1J ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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