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Mobile from 117 VAC

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Frank Krozel

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

I have a Toyota Prius that has a beat signal “right on 0.780MHz, WBBM - Chicago”.
Have not had any issues related to my transmitter getting into anything though.

Frank KG9H

> On Oct 9, 2017, at 2:57 PM, Gary Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> "This
> mechanism is a likely cause (or
> contributing cause) to my 20M RF
> locking up the computer in my Toyota."
>
> I'm sort of amazed, I remember when the
> Camry came out in the 80's there was a lot
> said about how 20W from a 2M radio would
> kill the computer and Toyota wouldn't
> warranty that. It was mentioned in QST and
> Toyota lost a lot of sales (Including any
> to me) and back then, said they would
> resolve the issue. Haven't bought a Toyota
> since then but it appears they still don't
> care.
>
> 73,
>
> Gary
> KA1J
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

On 10/9/2017 1:02 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> I have a Toyota Prius that has a beat signal “right on 0.780MHz, WBBM - Chicago”.
> Have not had any issues related to my transmitter getting into anything though.

Any discussion of mobile operation ought to include the bands in use.
VHF/UHF is VERY different from HF with respect to RFI. My earlier posts
in this chain have been with respect to HF. It's been a LONG time since
I've encountered vehicle-related noise issues on VHF or UHF FM. I HAVE
encountered noise from noise sources plugged into lighter plugs. :)

73, Jim K9YC

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Edward R Cole

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Ted, KN1CBR

It seems to me simpler to set up a source of 13.6 vdc to power your
SUV "portable" station. Running dc leads from the vehicle battery is
simplest but you need to guard against discharging it so much that
the vehicle will not start. With engine running you will get about
14.2vdc at the battery which will only help (but your gas mileage will suffer).

But using dedicated 12v deep-cycle battery for the radio will insure
against starting issues. Not sure if you plan to install radio in
SUV or just have it to set up on say a picnic table or folding
table. If the latter, the battery can be situated close the radio
and use the standard dc power leads of the radio equipment. You can
recharge the radio battery when driving or just running engine in CG
by use of some No. 12ga wire from vehicle battery to the radio
battery (good for up to 10A charging current if under 20-foot
length). Use a isolation diode if you don't want the radio battery
involved in starting (which draws probably 200A from the vehicle
battery). Probably a 10A diode would suffice for charging the radio
battery. Wire up the system and measure current using multimeter to
be sure before getting a diode.

This will not keep the radio battery from discharging when operating
100w on HF because the radio is probably drawing 15A on peaks. If
recharging only when driving it will likely take close to an hour for
full recharging (depends on the volt-amp rating of the radio
battery). I used a system like this when living in a remote cabin
without power. It look about 45 minutes running the truck to
recharge the cabin battery (which was placed in the truck with wiring
for this purpose). I had a 100AH Marine Diehard (Sears) battery.

Diode will not keep from discharging the vehicle battery so have a
way to disconnect the radio battery when operating (unless you plan
to keep engine running). Marine electronic shops stock things like
dc disconnect switches and isolation diode units if you do not want
to make your own. Also several ham suppliers handle such items.

Last year I bought a new 4x4 pickup and installed ham radio equipment
(KX3 + KXPA100, etc.):
http://www.kl7uw.com/Mobile.htm
Truck has two batteries (diesel) so I did nothing but run off one of
the batteries (but I used No. 8awg).

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
[hidden email]

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Edward A. Dauer

Mobile from 117 VAC

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Jim -

Good ideas from you, as always.

The impact of RF on the car's systems interests me the most, as I hadn't thought of it before. Yours was a Sequoia. Mine will be - if I buy it - a Lexus GX which is effectively the Sequoia's cousin, if not half-brother. So even if I conquer all the challenges of bonding and antenna-making and all the rest, there is still the risk that HF RF will affect some processor on the vehicle at the worst possible time and place? How do we deal with that sort of problem? Operate QRP only?

Many years ago (1973) I had a HW-101 in a Fiat Spyder, which in those days still had the traditional coil and condenser ignition system. To control noise I installed coax braid over every spark plug wire from the distributor and the line from the coil and whatever else I could at. Then one day the braid shorted something at one end or the other - right at the point where the Hollywood Freeway goes through Cahuenga Pass and (in those days anyway as I remember it) narrows to three lane, and at about 5:30 PM. With a cold dead Fiat I blocked at least one of those lanes for at least the hour it took me to rip out all the braid while suffering the horns and the hand gestures of about 400,000 people whom I made late for dinner.

I don't want to ever do that again. How vulnerable are today's cars' systems to HF RF?

Ted, KN1CBR
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k6dgw

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

In my previous 2003 Chevy Silverado, I had my TS-850 on a picnic table,
running off the truck battery with jumper cables to the PowerPole
distribution block and the engine idling. As soon as I sent the first
CW, both front seats moved totally forward and then refused to move
back, steering wheel now blocking entrance. Antenna was a dipole in the
tree, hanging over the truck. Disconnecting the battery cable for a
minute or so rebooted the seat computer and it began working. A 40W 440
MHz transmitter affected the cruise control in a 1991 Ford Ranger.
Fortunately, it just disengaged it rather than setting the speed target
at 120 mph.

I got a 2017 Honda Ridgeline last Feb, I'm still working through
understanding the "UI" for it, but given how much automation is
involved, I will not put HF mobile in it. Automobiles have changed
since Dad let me put the PE-103 powered 10m transmitter in the trunk of
the family Plymouth. The seat computer in the Chevy [one of seven in
the truck not counting whatever was in the radio] had 320 KB of ROM, 64
KB RAM, and cycled at 100 ns, all just to move the seats back and
forth. The Apollo Guidance Computer had 32 KB of 16-bit hardwired core
memory, 2 KB of read-write core, and cycled at 10 ms for most
instructions, to go to the moon and back.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 10/9/2017 2:01 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> So even if I conquer all the challenges of bonding and antenna-making and all the rest, there is still the risk that HF RF will affect some processor on the vehicle at the worst possible time and place? How do we deal with that sort of problem? Operate QRP only?

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KENT TRIMBLE

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

I can offer only my personal mobile experiences over 46 years, for what
it's worth:

1971 Plymouth Sport Fury
FT-101E mounted over transmission hump
Power cable direct from car's battery to rig
Hustler rear-deck-lid-mounted antenna
Many 140-watt HF CW QSOs
No problems with any function of the car itself

1980 Chrysler Cordoba
FT-101E mounted over transmission hump
Exactly the same set-up and connections
No problems with any function of the car itself

1984 Oldsmobile 98 Brougham
1989 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1992 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1994 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
Raising kids, no rig in any of the above cars

2000 Cadillac DHS
FT-100D under-dash mounted
Many 100-watt mobile CW QSOs, hundreds of VHF/UHF FM QSOs
Power cable direct from car's battery to rig
ATAS-120 mounted on left side of trunk lid for HF
Comet 5/8 wave dual-band mounted on right side of trunk lid (VHF/UHF)
Diamond-K400 trunk mounts for both antennas
One-inch braid between trunk lid and something very metal and
substantial (can't remember what) inside the trunk
No problems with any accessories, navigation, or display screen at
either 100 or 50 watt levels

2006 Cadillac DTS
FT-100D under-dash mounted
Same set-up and connections
No problems with any accessories, navigation, or display screen at
either 100 or 50 watt levels

2010 Mercedes-Benz E550
FT-857D control head in dash, RF deck under seat
Exactly same set-up and connections
No problems with any accessories, navigation, or display screen at
either 100 or 50 watt levels

2017 Lincoln Continental
FT-857D control head in dash, RF deck under seat
Exactly same set-up and connections
Running only VHF/UHF at 50 watts so far
No problems with any accessories, navigation, or display screen

Not being an E.E. and not knowing any better, I probably did it all wrong.

73,

Kent K9ZTV

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Dave Fugleberg

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

In reply to this post by k6dgw

My friend had a jeep wrangler (2012 model IIRC ) that we used for VHF
roving with no issues. When we tried the same vehicle on HF, some bands
were ok and some caused havoc with the vehicle electronics. Transmit on 15m
at 100 watts triggered the wipers... 40m lit up every indicator on the
dash.
We switched to my 2015 F-150 with almost all the options, and have no such
problems. Same rig, same antenna. However, the truck creates some hash in
the HF receiver. So, there can be a lot of differences between vehicles.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 4:48 PM Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In my previous 2003 Chevy Silverado, I had my TS-850 on a picnic table,
> running off the truck battery with jumper cables to the PowerPole
> distribution block and the engine idling. As soon as I sent the first
> CW, both front seats moved totally forward and then refused to move
> back, steering wheel now blocking entrance. Antenna was a dipole in the
> tree, hanging over the truck. Disconnecting the battery cable for a
> minute or so rebooted the seat computer and it began working. A 40W 440
> MHz transmitter affected the cruise control in a 1991 Ford Ranger.
> Fortunately, it just disengaged it rather than setting the speed target
> at 120 mph.
>
> I got a 2017 Honda Ridgeline last Feb, I'm still working through
> understanding the "UI" for it, but given how much automation is
> involved, I will not put HF mobile in it. Automobiles have changed
> since Dad let me put the PE-103 powered 10m transmitter in the trunk of
> the family Plymouth. The seat computer in the Chevy [one of seven in
> the truck not counting whatever was in the radio] had 320 KB of ROM, 64
> KB RAM, and cycled at 100 ns, all just to move the seats back and
> forth. The Apollo Guidance Computer had 32 KB of 16-bit hardwired core
> memory, 2 KB of read-write core, and cycled at 10 ms for most
> instructions, to go to the moon and back.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> On 10/9/2017 2:01 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> > So even if I conquer all the challenges of bonding and antenna-making
> and all the rest, there is still the risk that HF RF will affect some
> processor on the vehicle at the worst possible time and place? How do we
> deal with that sort of problem? Operate QRP only?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

Back in the late 1960's, I ran a SBE 33 and a HW12 compact kilowatt in a Ford Econcom PU, with a Texas bug catcher antenna and NE2s around the Top Hat..... HP pulled me over and said I could not do that, causing drivers to swerve all over the place behind me...... FUN.
Mel, K6KBE

From: Dave Fugleberg <[hidden email]>
To: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

My friend had a jeep wrangler (2012 model IIRC ) that we used for VHF
roving with no issues. When we tried the same vehicle on HF, some bands
were ok and some caused havoc with the vehicle electronics. Transmit on 15m
at 100 watts triggered the wipers... 40m lit up every indicator on the
dash.
We switched to my 2015 F-150 with almost all the options, and have no such
problems. Same rig, same antenna. However, the truck creates some hash in
the HF receiver. So, there can be a lot of differences between vehicles.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 4:48 PM Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

______________________________________________________________
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

There's nothing like doing the job correct, and Kent's installations
seem to indicate such.

I've used my Tentec 599 Eagle in my 2005 GMC Somona with a Hustler array
on the rear, power cables direct to the battery. No issues any band 80
- 6 meters. Same basic configuration and installation in the travel
trailer. It does however slightly "modulate" the interior LED bulbs on CW.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 10/9/2017 4:45 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:

> I can offer only my personal mobile experiences over 46 years, for
> what it's worth:
>
> 1971 Plymouth Sport Fury
> FT-101E mounted over transmission hump
> Power cable direct from car's battery to rig
> Hustler rear-deck-lid-mounted antenna
> Many 140-watt HF CW QSOs
> No problems with any function of the car itself
>
> 1980 Chrysler Cordoba
> FT-101E mounted over transmission hump
> Exactly the same set-up and connections
> No problems with any function of the car itself
>
> 1984 Oldsmobile 98 Brougham
> 1989 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
> 1992 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
> 1994 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
> 1996 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
> Raising kids, no rig in any of the above cars
>
> 2000 Cadillac DHS
> FT-100D under-dash mounted
> Many 100-watt mobile CW QSOs, hundreds of VHF/UHF FM QSOs
> Power cable direct from car's battery to rig
> ATAS-120 mounted on left side of trunk lid for HF
> Comet 5/8 wave dual-band mounted on right side of trunk lid (VHF/UHF)
> Diamond-K400 trunk mounts for both antennas
> One-inch braid between trunk lid and something very metal and
> substantial (can't remember what) inside the trunk
> No problems with any accessories, navigation, or display screen at
> either 100 or 50 watt levels
>
> 2006 Cadillac DTS
> FT-100D under-dash mounted
> Same set-up and connections
> No problems with any accessories, navigation, or display screen at
> either 100 or 50 watt levels
>
> 2010 Mercedes-Benz E550
> FT-857D control head in dash, RF deck under seat
> Exactly same set-up and connections
> No problems with any accessories, navigation, or display screen at
> either 100 or 50 watt levels
>
> 2017 Lincoln Continental
> FT-857D control head in dash, RF deck under seat
> Exactly same set-up and connections
> Running only VHF/UHF at 50 watts so far
> No problems with any accessories, navigation, or display screen
>
> Not being an E.E. and not knowing any better, I probably did it all
> wrong.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent K9ZTV
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

EricJ-2

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I ran a similar setup. I built a homebrew version of the HA-14 (HW-12 was a xceiver). Same 572B tubes and powered it with Heath's DC power supply for the HA-14. Plate voltage was around 2200 volts. Drove it with a National NCX-3 in a brand new '65 Dodge R/T. Antenna was also homebrew.

I never had a problem drilling holes in new cars. Do a neat job and it's easily repaired when you trade it. I never had a problem at trade-in time.

Simpler cars in those days. Even my bike is computer controlled now.

Eric

KE6US

On 10/9/2017 4:55 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:

Back in the late 1960's, I ran a SBE 33 and a HW12 compact kilowatt in a Ford Econcom PU, with a Texas bug catcher antenna and NE2s around the Top Hat..... HP pulled me over and said I could not do that, causing drivers to swerve all over the place behind me...... FUN.
Mel, K6KBE

From: Dave Fugleberg <[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]>
To: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]>; [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, October 9, 2017 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Mobile from 117 VAC

My friend had a jeep wrangler (2012 model IIRC ) that we used for VHF
roving with no issues. When we tried the same vehicle on HF, some bands
were ok and some caused havoc with the vehicle electronics. Transmit on 15m
at 100 watts triggered the wipers... 40m lit up every indicator on the
dash.
We switched to my 2015 F-150 with almost all the options, and have no such
problems. Same rig, same antenna. However, the truck creates some hash in
the HF receiver. So, there can be a lot of differences between vehicles.
On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 4:48 PM Fred Jensen <[hidden email]><mailto:[hidden email]> wrote:

In my previous 2003 Chevy Silverado, I had my TS-850 on a picnic table,
running off the truck battery with jumper cables to the PowerPole
distribution block and the engine idling. As soon as I sent the first
CW, both front seats moved totally forward and then refused to move
back, steering wheel now blocking entrance. Antenna was a dipole in the
tree, hanging over the truck. Disconnecting the battery cable for a
minute or so rebooted the seat computer and it began working. A 40W 440
MHz transmitter affected the cruise control in a 1991 Ford Ranger.
Fortunately, it just disengaged it rather than setting the speed target
at 120 mph.

I got a 2017 Honda Ridgeline last Feb, I'm still working through
understanding the "UI" for it, but given how much automation is
involved, I will not put HF mobile in it. Automobiles have changed
since Dad let me put the PE-103 powered 10m transmitter in the trunk of
the family Plymouth. The seat computer in the Chevy [one of seven in
the truck not counting whatever was in the radio] had 320 KB of ROM, 64
KB RAM, and cycled at 100 ns, all just to move the seats back and
forth. The Apollo Guidance Computer had 32 KB of 16-bit hardwired core
memory, 2 KB of read-write core, and cycled at 10 ms for most
instructions, to go to the moon and back.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 10/9/2017 2:01 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

So even if I conquer all the challenges of bonding and antenna-making

and all the rest, there is still the risk that HF RF will affect some
processor on the vehicle at the worst possible time and place? How do we
deal with that sort of problem? Operate QRP only?

______________________________________________________________
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K9MA

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Most likely, the AC inverter built into the car does not produce a sine
wave, and your radio probably won't like it.

You could just connect some heavy wire, with a fuse, directly to the
battery terminals, and run the radio on that. However, car batteries
don't deep cycle well at all, and there's the chance of not being able
to get the engine started. You can buy a small, 30 AH deep cycle
battery, which will run a 100W radio for some hours of normal
operation. A voltage booster will step the voltage up to 13.8 V, so the
transmitter will operate at full power. One big advantage of the
separate battery is that you can carry it a ways from the parking lot if
you have to.

Charging the battery from the vehicle is a bit tricky, though. You can't
just connect it in parallel with the vehicle battery, as the alternator
will charge it at much to high a current. I was unable to find an
affordable commercial device that could safely charge such a battery
from the vehicle. One could build a current limiter, but it would take
some effort. For me, the path of least resistance was to buy a 120V
battery charger, and run it on a 150W sine wave inverter I already had.
(Using the above connections to the vehicle battery; that's a bit much
for the cigarette lighter plug.) Such a charger may or may not work
with the built in inverter in the vehicle.

73,
Scott K9MA

On 10/8/2017 22:19, Dauer, Edward wrote:

> Previous threads provided a great deal of info about arranging automobile electrical systems to power HF rigs. But as I recall, it all focused on using the battery / alternator supply for the 13 VDC. Though I wanted to go mobile and still do, for a number of reasons I could not configure my car to do it properly. I am now thinking of buying a new SUV which has 117 VAC outlets in its rear cargo space. That makes me wonder – could I just use an ordinary 117 VAC to 13 VDC power supply, exactly as I do at home, just plug it in and – staying within the car’s rated current draw – operate without worrying about where the ground goes vis-à-vis the battery, what-all needs to be bonded with what-all-else, how everything needs to be mummified in ferrite, etc? Or are the problems all the same even though different? My objective is simple. I want to be able to drive to a rare county, set up my buddipole in a parking lot, and use either a XX3/KXPA or a K2/100 to knock out some CW QSOs. I do NOT want to take an electric drill or a rivet gun to a new car.
>
> Has anyone gone mobile using a car’s 117 VAC outlets? Any thoughts to share? Any thoughts from anyone who for any reason hasn’t done it?
>
> Ted, KN1CBR (operating this week as N0A in the NAQCC anniversary event. Give a call if you hear me. Mostly 20 or 40 CW)
>
> Tnx.
>
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--
Scott K9MA

[hidden email]

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Mobile from 117 VAC

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

On 10/9/2017 2:01 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

>
> Jim –
>
> Good ideas from you, as always.
>
> The impact of RF on the car’s systems interests me the most, as I
> hadn’t thought of it before. Yours was a Sequoia. Mine will be – if I
> buy it – a Lexus GX which is effectively the Sequoia’s cousin, if not
> half-brother. So even if I conquer all the challenges of bonding and
> antenna-making and all the rest, there is still the risk that HF RF
> will affect some processor on the vehicle at the worst possible time
> and place?
>

Yes. BUT -- that was a brand new 2006 model. Let's hope Toyota/Lexus has
learned something about these issues in 11 years. :)

> How do we deal with that sort of problem? Operate QRP only?
>

I'd say it's a business problem -- that is, between you and
Toyota/Lexus. It might be worth checking with ARRL about HF mobile in
current production of these vehicles. MAYBE things have improved. After
having the issues with my SUV, I did a lot of poking around online and
found indications that another brand was far better for RFI. But by then
I'd made a bunch of trips from W9 to W6 and had 45,000 miles on it. :)

> Many years ago (1973) I had a HW-101 in a Fiat Spyder, which in those
> days still had the traditional coil and condenser ignition system. To
> control noise I installed coax braid over every spark plug wire from
> the distributor and the line from the coil and whatever else I could
> at. Then one day the braid shorted something at one end or the other
> – right at the point where the Hollywood Freeway goes through Cahuenga
> Pass and (in those days anyway as I remember it) narrows to three
> lane, and at about 5:30 PM. With a cold dead Fiat I blocked at least
> one of those lanes for at least the hour it took me to rip out all the
> braid while suffering the horns and the hand gestures of about 400,000
> people whom I made late for dinner.
>
> I don’t want to ever do that again. How vulnerable are today’s cars’
> systems to HF RF?
>

That's a good question to poke around the internet in general and ARRL
in particular. Also ask the guys who do serious mobile operation during
state QSO parties. W0BH, W4NZ, KU8E, and K4ZGB are some guys who have
done a lot of this. They also know how to put out a good signal from a
mobile -- I've worked several mobiles from TN and GA on 80 CW, including
K4ZGB last month in the TNQP. And they will have also solved any issues
with noise from computers or computer power supplies.

73, Jim K9YC
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