More about Anderson PowePole connectors

[Phil Kane-2]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:44:08 +0000, Charles Harpole wrote:

>ARRL's idea to standardize on Anderson is similarily a
>mistake... and their idea is especially applied to emergency
>comm... the very place where weird fixtures are another disaster.

  Our ARES group has standardized on the Anderson PPs and they
  have been installed on all equipment used by our members.
  Every piece of 12V equipment in our EOCs and served-agency
  installations (including transportable back up equipment) has
  them.  If the particular equipment has some "native" connector
  other than APP, we construct the necessary adapter which
  becomes part of that device,  All equipment is standardized
  with compatible power and antenna connections.

  I'm one of the "equipment marshals" who helps other members
  with getting their gear to the standard configuration. I keep a
  toolbox with the necessary wire and tools (wire cutters,
  strippers, crimpers) and connectors to construct adapters and
  extensions and do repairs "on the fly", and it deploys with me.

  We have found through frequent exercises, both training and real
  world, that our major need is for people to work shifts, not
  for equipment brought in from outside.

--
   73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
   Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

   Member, Washington County, OR
   Emergency Communications Team
   for ARES/RACES and HEARTNET




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[John Payne-7]

See bottom post:

Phil Kane wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:44:08 +0000, Charles Harpole wrote:
>
>  
>> ARRL's idea to standardize on Anderson is similarily a
>> mistake... and their idea is especially applied to emergency
>> comm... the very place where weird fixtures are another disaster.
>>    
>
>   Our ARES group has standardized on the Anderson PPs and they
>   have been installed on all equipment used by our members.

I can't for the life of me understand the hatred some show of APPs.  
Like any other connector, if installed PROPERLY and used for the
intended purpose, they do a great job.  ANY connector can fail if
installed in a ham-handed manner, even the most expensive.  My local
ARES group has standardized on these, and not just because "the ARRL
said so", as some imply.  They truly are a superior connector if
installed to manufacturers spec.  Crimp or solder, your choice, although
if crimping is good enough for NASA, Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas et al,
it's good enough for me.

Also, the roll pins are NOT recommended  by most sellers of APPs, nor
Anderson.  They do not stay put, and can cause a disaster if they fall
into the wrong place(see Murphy's Law).  Better to use a drop of Super
Glue or similar after the connectors are dovetailed together.   The clip
made to hold sets together is a great idea, although it does add to the
expense.

BTW, RC modelers use APPs extensively with no trouble or unwanted
disconnects, and this is certainly a harsher environment than most of us
will use them in.

Just my 2 cents, now back in my hole!!

73 de John AI4JH

--
"The real proof that there is intelligent life in outer space is that they haven't come here."

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[Richard Thorne]

John:

I was just going to make that reference to R/C airplanes.

I fly large electric planes, my largest being almost 12 pounds.  I run
10 lithium polymer batteries in series for a total of just over 34 volts
at full load which draws approximately 62 amps.  I'm using 45 amp APP's
and they work just great.  I put the plane through some very high G
maneuvers and have never had a problem with the APP's coming apart.  
However I do use a separate battery for my receiver so if I lose power
to my motor I still have control of the plane.

I think the issue is proper installation.  Since I use lots of APP's I
went ahead and purchased the ratchet crimping tool from West Mountain.  
However, if I just had one set of APP's to deal with, ie a K2 I don't
think I would want to purchase the crimper and would probably solder
them.  But I think the trick here would be to watch the amount of heat
applied to the connector.

Rich - N5ZC


John Payne wrote:

> See bottom post:
>
> Phil Kane wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 03:44:08 +0000, Charles Harpole wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> ARRL's idea to standardize on Anderson is similarily a
>>> mistake... and their idea is especially applied to emergency
>>> comm... the very place where weird fixtures are another disaster.
>>>    
>>
>>   Our ARES group has standardized on the Anderson PPs and they
>>   have been installed on all equipment used by our members.
> I can't for the life of me understand the hatred some show of APPs.  
> Like any other connector, if installed PROPERLY and used for the
> intended purpose, they do a great job.  ANY connector can fail if
> installed in a ham-handed manner, even the most expensive.  My local
> ARES group has standardized on these, and not just because "the ARRL
> said so", as some imply.  They truly are a superior connector if
> installed to manufacturers spec.  Crimp or solder, your choice,
> although if crimping is good enough for NASA, Boeing,
> McDonnell-Douglas et al, it's good enough for me.
>
> Also, the roll pins are NOT recommended  by most sellers of APPs, nor
> Anderson.  They do not stay put, and can cause a disaster if they fall
> into the wrong place(see Murphy's Law).  Better to use a drop of Super
> Glue or similar after the connectors are dovetailed together.   The
> clip made to hold sets together is a great idea, although it does add
> to the expense.
>
> BTW, RC modelers use APPs extensively with no trouble or unwanted
> disconnects, and this is certainly a harsher environment than most of
> us will use them in.
>
> Just my 2 cents, now back in my hole!!
>
> 73 de John AI4JH
>

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[Charly]

I did not say the Power Poles are bad... they are likely superior in some
ways to other connectors, but my point, which so many missed, is the same as
the theory of "installed base" whereby one item becomes the de facto
standard sometimes regardless of its rating as best or not.

For examples, see the computer evolution where the Divorak keyboard could
have been adopted and increased typing input speed by 5 to 20 %.... if only
adopted at the beginning.  Instead, we have the QWERTY which was set up on
manual typerwriters to SLOW DOWN the typist.

As a high paid consultant, in my dreams, I can increase the speed of word
data input by about 15% with retraining of the typists.... tell that to
industry... they should grab it, but the rule of installed base kept the
QWERTY and we are cursed with it.

For my K3, I will just make the Power Poles that come with the unit... they
do come with, don't they?.... as a permanently attached item with a short
pig tail that I then put on a more well-established connector style that
fits my other rigs and that I can easily purchase here in Asia.

Charles Harpole, HS0ZCW
[hidden email]

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[Alan Biocca]

I have purchased a lot of HF and VHF/UHF radios over the years that
require 5 to 30 amps of 12 volt power. They all came with factory
connectors. Almost without exception they were connectors that were
not readily available. Most were marginal mechanically and not really
adequate for the peak current. Many failed over time. There was never
a standard that crossed all radio types, let alone manufacturers.
Some of them were electrically unsafe. None of them were
significantly water resistant. Most of them required special crimpers
and were not capable of larger wire sizes required for longer runs or
reduced losses. Few had much in the way of strain relief for the
wires. None of them were really good enough to be a standard. Recenty
manufactureres such as Icom have introduced new connectors, adding to
the confusion.

PowerPoles are imperfect. They are, however, the best chance we have
ever had of a standard, and for their price point and for their
compact size they have better performance - lower resistance over a
large number of use cycles - than just about anything we have ever
used or had available in the amateur market. Their availability is
increasing dramatically over time. They can be applied without
special tools. They can be applied very efficiently with a reasonably
priced crimper for those that have a lot of terminations to make.They
are color coded, and polarized to help avoid polarity reversal.

We can either pull for them as a standard, or vote for the
continuation of connector chaos. Until something significantly better
comes along we are better off as a radio community to standardize on
them than nothing.

73

-- Alan, wb6zqz


At 09:27 PM 7/18/2007, Charles Harpole wrote:

>I did not say the Power Poles are bad... they are likely superior in
>some ways to other connectors, but my point, which so many missed,
>is the same as the theory of "installed base" whereby one item
>becomes the de facto standard sometimes regardless of its rating as
>best or not.
>
>For examples, see the computer evolution where the Divorak keyboard
>could have been adopted and increased typing input speed by 5 to 20
>%.... if only adopted at the beginning.  Instead, we have the QWERTY
>which was set up on manual typerwriters to SLOW DOWN the typist.
>
>As a high paid consultant, in my dreams, I can increase the speed of
>word data input by about 15% with retraining of the typists.... tell
>that to industry... they should grab it, but the rule of installed
>base kept the QWERTY and we are cursed with it.
>
>For my K3, I will just make the Power Poles that come with the
>unit... they do come with, don't they?.... as a permanently attached
>item with a short pig tail that I then put on a more
>well-established connector style that fits my other rigs and that I
>can easily purchase here in Asia.
>
>Charles Harpole, HS0ZCW
>[hidden email]

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[Charly]

My vote for 12 VDC power connectors goes to the Cinch Jones line... used on
the back of the HyGain rotor controller ... the newer ones.... and available
for years very widely.  Of course, if u lack such a plug, u r stuck with
sticking bare wires into the socket holes, not at all good, but do-able in
an emergency.  They have a strain releif clamp, are large enuf to get ur
fingers onto, installing and using, and come in many pin sizes (all need
solder but not a special crimper).  And u can plug them in ONLY ONE WAY even
if blind.

The Drake TR-7 main power plug was a really butch version of Jones, with
four large pins, a center pin to key against upside down plug ins that also
added strength, and a hefty shell with strain clamp.  Still the socket
version took up less than a sq. inch of panel space.  The only weakness I
saw in this one is the lack of a mechanical hood over the exposed plug pins,
which could prevent damage if steped on, for example.  Currently used mic
plugs have such a protective extended hood, but the socket at the end of a
cable does not... i.e., the in line socket for today's mics lack protective
hood.  XLRs are butch, too, but maybe not for 12 VDC.

If u go to Skycraft in Orlando Fla, a stop I guess everyone wants to make, u
will see at least a dozen sizes of Jones as well as maybe two dozen versions
of pin numbers.... really informative.  The octal socket and plug adapted
from larger tubes ... like on Collins KWM-2.. is also nice.

Long ago the ham community shoulda arisen up and rejected the following from
stupid mfgs...

DIN
small Molex, maybe all Molex
connectors where the supply voltages are on PINS and not sockets (re current
mic panel sockets etc.)
Power Poles. ..... what is ur favorite no-no?

In desk top ham rigs, small is a not a blessing.  When I get rich and make a
ham rig, I am gonna set the thing on its tail and use what is now  the top
for the front panel and I am gonna have every control on a single shaft or
switch, gonna have ooodles of them, and lots of lights and screens....  and
not a single menu.   THAT is ham radio... not these dinky toys.... Where are
the guys who operated
Johnson Valiant?
HQ-180  ?
75A-4?
wonderful NC-300?
WRL Globe King?
and, not to forget, the BC-610 ?

THOSE were real radios...... ah, take me back....... did I say that?  73

Charles Harpole
[hidden email]

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[James1787]

I am new to APP's. I picked up the Racheting crimper from West Mountain
Radio and a bag full of APP's at Dayton this year. So far they seem to
crimp nicely. If you're careful, you can even get 10 guage wire on the
30 amp connections (I forgot to buy 45 amps..). What I like about them
is that they seem to be emerging rather strongly as a standard. The
ARES/RACES folks use them. ARRL 'endorse' them. Heck, if Elecraft is
using them they have to be good!! If crimped right, these can last a
long long time. To keep the + and - housings together, I used a 'dot'
of r/c aircraft 5 min epoxy in the channel and slid them together. By
'dot' i mean I dab a toothpick in the epoxy mixture and simply place a
'dot' in the channel. I figure I'll never have a need to pull the
housings apart so might as well make it permanent. Thin CA (Superglue)
glue is a little bit messy for me.. with working with wood it's great
but with plastic I've found it tends to go places you don't want. I
suppose thick CA might work ok but I still prefer a 'dot' of epoxy.

My only pet peeve is that they can come apart easily, but then again so
can other types of connectors. If it has to stay together in an
environment subject to vibration - a zip tie can work wonders. I like
them and I will continue to move my other equipment over to APP's.

I just wish I could get an APP connector on the back of my K2
(Non-100W). I'll add that to the wishlist along with my choice in case
color :)

73,
James KB2FCV

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[Charly]

I like a connector I do not have to glue together..... come on.... get
reasonable.  GLUE !!!!



Charles Harpole
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Guys,

Let's end the APP threads for now. Its one of those topics that will
never end and it periodically pops up all over the net. :-)

As a general statement, we do not require glue and find that when
properly built with heavier wire for the K2/100, XVs and K3 the APP
connectors stay put and are extremely reliable. I've personally been
using them for all of my rigs for many years and they are the most
reliable connectors I've ever used.

We'll also be offering pre-built APP cables for order soon on our web page.

73, Eric
-----

Charles Harpole wrote:
> I like a connector I do not have to glue together..... come on.... get
> reasonable.  GLUE !!!!
>
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[Stuart Rohre]

If you go to the Anderson Power Pole web site, you will find a number of
products that are used to mount multiple connectors together.  The spiral
roll pin is the one most hams have heard about, but there are frames that
clamp several power poles in a cluster, and chassis mounting clamps that
enclose multiple poles and allow them to mount in a single rectangular or
square hole in a chassis.

Like any mechanical device, you should use the manufacturers designed for
application parts, rather than glue.  However, locally a number of hams have
made satisfactory "emergency" hookups with wire ties as a clamping agent.

-Stuart
K5KVH
----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] bad choice: Anderson PowePole connectors

>I am new to APP's. I picked up the Racheting crimper from West Mountain
>Radio and a bag full of APP's at Dayton this year. So far they seem to
>crimp nicely. If you're careful, you can even get 10 guage wire on the 30
>amp connections (I forgot to buy 45 amps..). What I like about them is that
>they seem to be emerging rather strongly as a standard. The ARES/RACES
>folks use them. ARRL 'endorse' them. Heck, if Elecraft is using them they
>have to be good!! If crimped right, these can last a long long time. To
>keep the + and - housings together, I used a 'dot' of r/c aircraft 5 min
>epoxy in the channel and slid them together. By 'dot' i mean I dab a
>toothpick in the epoxy mixture and simply place a 'dot' in the channel. I
>figure I'll never have a need to pull the housings apart so might as well
>make it permanent. Thin CA (Superglue) glue is a little bit messy for me..
>with working with wood it's great but with plastic I've found it tends to
>go places you don't want. I suppose thick CA might work ok but I still
>prefer a 'dot' of epoxy.
>
> My only pet peeve is that they can come apart easily, but then again so
> can other types of connectors. If it has to stay together in an
> environment subject to vibration - a zip tie can work wonders. I like them
> and I will continue to move my other equipment over to APP's.
>
> I just wish I could get an APP connector on the back of my K2 (Non-100W).
> I'll add that to the wishlist along with my choice in case color :)
>
> 73,
> James KB2FCV
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free
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[Stuart Rohre]

When soldering APP connectors, it is important to not get oversplash of
solder outside the cup, on the outer wall of the contact, or it does not
push into the shell to the locking point.  Here, we tin the inside of the
cup, and the wire end, then insert the wire end and reheat the cup to join
them.  If you use less solder than you think you need for each piece, it
turns out to be plenty.

-Stuart
K5KVH


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[Jim Brown-10]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:37:38 -0700, wayne burdick wrote:

>We chose APP connectors for several reasons, and don't regret it
>in the slightest

I strongly agree. I converted ALL of my ham gear to Power Pole soon
after buying my first K2. I've subsequently converted all of my other
personal equipment that runs on 12VDC in one form or another. Makes
life a lot easier.

I have seen documentation of inferior "knock-off" connectors made by
mfrs other than Anderson. Problems include unsatisfactory mating.

One other important point. Twisted pair is well known for rejecting
RFI, yet power cords for ham gear have traditionally used parallel
conductors. The same is true for loudspeaker cables. That's two more
standards worth changing.

73,

Jim Brown K9YC



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[David Woolley (E.L)]

Jim Brown wrote:

> One other important point. Twisted pair is well known for rejecting
> RFI, yet power cords for ham gear have traditionally used parallel
> conductors. The same is true for loudspeaker cables. That's two more

For power cables, there might be some benefit if there was a problem
from a co-sited transmitter, but one would need a common mode choke at
the equipment end, and unless the power supply was well balanced or
differential mode filtered, at the power supply end.  For transmit,
your biggest source of differential mode power supply noise is your own
PA stage, so, unless you have good decoupling internally, I don't see
that it would help to balance the external lead.

My suspicion is that good differential mode filters on the input might
be a better approach.

> standards worth changing.

Headphones might benefit, but you would need a common mode choke, or an
output transformer.  Also, I suspect that headphone lead pickup tends to
get injected in common mode.


--
David Woolley
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RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
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[Jim Brown-10]

I commented on the value of twisted pair for power and loudspeaker
wiring.

On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 22:15:57 +0100, David Woolley wrote:

>there might be some benefit if there was a problem
>from a co-sited transmitter,

We're hams, right? We have co-sited transmitters!  :)

>but one would need a common mode choke at
>the equipment end, and unless the power supply was well balanced or
>differential mode filtered, at the power supply end.  

Differential filtering is ALWAYS a good idea on power leads.
Unfortunately, not all equipment has that, and not all filtering is
sufficient. The primary cost of paired cable is the copper. For a
given wire size, twisting is essentially free. I LOVE free techniques
that make things better!

Common mode and differential mode susceptibility are additive. Using
twisted pair ALWAYS reduces differential mode noise (and RFI) both TO
and FROM a given circuit. It is VERY common for RFI to be reduced by
20 dB or more simply by replacing zip cord with twisted pair.

>> standards worth changing.

>Headphones might benefit, but you would need a common mode choke, or
an
>output transformer.

Not necessarily -- ordinary headphone and loudspeaker output stages
are well known to be susceptible to RFI coupled on their output
wiring, and it is also well known that replacing zip cord with
twisted pair reduces RFI a lot. And neither a common mode choke or
output transformer must be present for this to happen.

> Also, I suspect that headphone lead pickup tends to
>get injected in common mode.

All of this stuff is received common mode by antenna action, but can
be converted to differential mode at the terminals of the equipment
because the two conductors are not balanced with respect to the
equipment signal reference or power supply earth AT RADIO
FREQUENCIES. And an output transformer is NOT likely to be balanced
at RF, thanks to the stray capacitance associated with its
construction.

These concepts are among those covered in my tutorial on RFI, which
also includes a discussion of common mode chokes.

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

73,

Jim Brown K9YC




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