Morse on the Tonight Show, Tonight, Friday the 13th

[Kevin Rock]

I did a little arithmetic to determine the skills necessary for this
'competition'.  It appears the text only folks never stood a chance.

Using the standard word PARIS here is the run down.

PARIS * 20 wpm = 100 chars/minute
100 chars/60 seconds = 1.67 chars/second

At 27 wpm => 2.25 chars/sec
At 30 wpm => 2.5 chars/sec.

Having never used text messaging, since cell phones do not work where I
live, I cannot truly measure the dexterity required to pass this bit of
traffic.

Since I am a touch typist at a moderate rate of 60 wpm I know I could beat
most CW ops if given the chance to type the message on a QWERTY keyboard
and send it via one of the digital modes.  But on a little cellphone's
keypad I do believe I would be severely hampered by its user interface.  
They are pretty much a two finger input device as far as I can tell.  My
dad was pretty good at two finger typing (40 wpm) but that method has its
inherent difficulties.

I don't think this was a valid test of different user interfaces but it
makes for a fine joke.  Now if those folks using the cellphones would have
had Wayne's two button (dot/dash) user input device they would have been
on the same footing.  But even then there would have been the use of
repeaters and landline circuits to transfer their message.  This would
have slowed the information exchange by just enough to get themselves
smoked by the simplex transfer of data by the '817 to '817 connection.  
The contest would have been more fair however.

Imagine if our very own Chicken Fat Operator N0SS had been the keying op?  
The poor cell op would truly have had egg on his face ;)

Long live CW!!
    73,
       Kevin.   KD5ONS


Should truly be called the "Vail Code" but I digress.
    KJR





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[EricJ-2]

I posted the math here based on the Guinness sentence that the text
messenger had to send for his world record, but I'm too lazy to look for it
now. The official text is 160 characters INCLUDING spaces, 136 without. But
SMS requires that spaces be keyed in where Morse does not. So SMS is at a
throughput disadvantage from the beginning.

Ben Cook set the text messenger record with 160 characters in 57.75 seconds.
That works out to 29 wpm (5.5 wpm) for 160 characters or about 24 wpm
without. Actually quite unbelievably fast for anyone who has entered an
address or note on their cell phone. So to beat him, it only required
sending Morse at >24 wpm. My guess is Chip was sending at better than 25,
but less than 30 wpm.

It doesn't so much speak to the efficiency of Morse as it speaks to the
unbearably pathetic human interface that is SMS. However, it takes less than
5 minutes to learn SMS, and probably that many days or even weeks to reach a
comparable speed in Morse. AND, the receiver already has the skills
necessary to read SMS where Morse requires a trained operator at both ends.
Not to apologize for Ben Cook, but he probably practiced the Guinness script
every waking moment before his record attempt. He was seeing the Tonight
Show text for the first time.

So what do we have?  I'd say 3:06 minutes of light television entertainment.
That's good enough.

Eric
KE6US

-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces+eric_csuf=[hidden email]
[mailto:elecraft-bounces+eric_csuf=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Kevin Rock
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 11:27 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Morse on the Tonight Show, Tonight, Friday the 13th

I did a little arithmetic to determine the skills necessary for this
'competition'.  It appears the text only folks never stood a chance.

Using the standard word PARIS here is the run down.

PARIS * 20 wpm = 100 chars/minute
100 chars/60 seconds = 1.67 chars/second

At 27 wpm => 2.25 chars/sec
At 30 wpm => 2.5 chars/sec.

Having never used text messaging, since cell phones do not work where I
live, I cannot truly measure the dexterity required to pass this bit of
traffic.

Since I am a touch typist at a moderate rate of 60 wpm I know I could beat
most CW ops if given the chance to type the message on a QWERTY keyboard and
send it via one of the digital modes.  But on a little cellphone's keypad I
do believe I would be severely hampered by its user interface.  
They are pretty much a two finger input device as far as I can tell.  My dad
was pretty good at two finger typing (40 wpm) but that method has its
inherent difficulties.

I don't think this was a valid test of different user interfaces but it
makes for a fine joke.  Now if those folks using the cellphones would have
had Wayne's two button (dot/dash) user input device they would have been on
the same footing.  But even then there would have been the use of repeaters
and landline circuits to transfer their message.  This would have slowed the
information exchange by just enough to get themselves smoked by the simplex
transfer of data by the '817 to '817 connection.  
The contest would have been more fair however.

Imagine if our very own Chicken Fat Operator N0SS had been the keying op?  
The poor cell op would truly have had egg on his face ;)

Long live CW!!
    73,
       Kevin.   KD5ONS


Should truly be called the "Vail Code" but I digress.
    KJR





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[Kirby Nesbitt]

Its unfortunate they had to be costumed up as 140 year old telegraphers.
It may have been "cute" however it doesn't do our image much good. Some
would say that any publicity is good publicity but I'm not so sure in
this case.
But hey, more importantly, we're those FT-817's by any chance? Likely
just coincidence no doubt. Fortunately,  at that distance you wouldn't
require a PA.

Gregg,  VE4NU
---


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[David A. Belsley]

> I posted the math here based on the Guinness sentence that the text
> messenger had to send for his world record, but I'm too lazy to look
> for it
> now. The official text is 160 characters INCLUDING spaces, 136
> without. But
> SMS requires that spaces be keyed in where Morse does not. So SMS is
> at a
> throughput disadvantage from the beginning.

A space requires time in code, too.

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[Jack Brindle]

You guys are missing something in the timing. Sending an SMS message  
requires far more than just keying in the receiver's phone number and  
the text itself. Once all this is keyed in and the send button is  
pressed, the cell system takes over. Much like the email system we  
are now using, the SMS message is forwarded into the  SMS gateway,  
which is most likely located at some central point in the cellphone  
company's system. There are amazingly few of these due to the vast  
amount of bandwidth inside the phone companies. The next time the  
system services outgoing messages, the server will start checking for  
delivery parameters, such as if the receiving phone is available and  
ready to accept a message. When all these gates have been cleared,  
the message is forwarded to the receiver. Only then does the message  
come up for display. This can happen quickly (hundreds of  
milliseconds), or rather slowly (minutes or more) depending on the  
loading of the SMS system and the overall cell system.

Note that this is very much unlike the CW system which is very much  
point-to-point.

So, even if the sender could key in the information as fast as the CW  
guys, it is doubtful if the SMS system could get the job done  
quickly. As are emails, SMS messaging is anything but a real-time  
system.

It still feels great to see the guys smoke the phone kids, though...


On May 14, 2005, at 1:04 PM, EricJ wrote:

> I posted the math here based on the Guinness sentence that the text
> messenger had to send for his world record, but I'm too lazy to  
> look for it
> now. The official text is 160 characters INCLUDING spaces, 136  
> without. But
> SMS requires that spaces be keyed in where Morse does not. So SMS  
> is at a
> throughput disadvantage from the beginning.
>
> Ben Cook set the text messenger record with 160 characters in 57.75  
> seconds.
> That works out to 29 wpm (5.5 wpm) for 160 characters or about 24 wpm
> without. Actually quite unbelievably fast for anyone who has  
> entered an
> address or note on their cell phone. So to beat him, it only required
> sending Morse at >24 wpm. My guess is Chip was sending at better  
> than 25,
> but less than 30 wpm.
>
> It doesn't so much speak to the efficiency of Morse as it speaks to  
> the
> unbearably pathetic human interface that is SMS. However, it takes  
> less than
> 5 minutes to learn SMS, and probably that many days or even weeks  
> to reach a
> comparable speed in Morse. AND, the receiver already has the skills
> necessary to read SMS where Morse requires a trained operator at  
> both ends.
> Not to apologize for Ben Cook, but he probably practiced the  
> Guinness script
> every waking moment before his record attempt. He was seeing the  
> Tonight
> Show text for the first time.
>
> So what do we have?  I'd say 3:06 minutes of light television  
> entertainment.
> That's good enough.
>
> Eric
> KE6US
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elecraft-bounces+eric_csuf=[hidden email]
> [mailto:elecraft-bounces+eric_csuf=[hidden email]] On  
> Behalf Of
> Kevin Rock
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 11:27 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Morse on the Tonight Show, Tonight, Friday  
> the 13th
>
> I did a little arithmetic to determine the skills necessary for this
> 'competition'.  It appears the text only folks never stood a chance.
>
> Using the standard word PARIS here is the run down.
>
> PARIS * 20 wpm = 100 chars/minute
> 100 chars/60 seconds = 1.67 chars/second
>
> At 27 wpm => 2.25 chars/sec
> At 30 wpm => 2.5 chars/sec.
>
> Having never used text messaging, since cell phones do not work  
> where I
> live, I cannot truly measure the dexterity required to pass this  
> bit of
> traffic.
>
> Since I am a touch typist at a moderate rate of 60 wpm I know I  
> could beat
> most CW ops if given the chance to type the message on a QWERTY  
> keyboard and
> send it via one of the digital modes.  But on a little cellphone's  
> keypad I
> do believe I would be severely hampered by its user interface.
> They are pretty much a two finger input device as far as I can  
> tell.  My dad
> was pretty good at two finger typing (40 wpm) but that method has its
> inherent difficulties.
>
> I don't think this was a valid test of different user interfaces  
> but it
> makes for a fine joke.  Now if those folks using the cellphones  
> would have
> had Wayne's two button (dot/dash) user input device they would have  
> been on
> the same footing.  But even then there would have been the use of  
> repeaters
> and landline circuits to transfer their message.  This would have  
> slowed the
> information exchange by just enough to get themselves smoked by the  
> simplex
> transfer of data by the '817 to '817 connection.
> The contest would have been more fair however.
>
> Imagine if our very own Chicken Fat Operator N0SS had been the  
> keying op?
> The poor cell op would truly have had egg on his face ;)
>
> Long live CW!!
>     73,
>        Kevin.   KD5ONS
>
>
> Should truly be called the "Vail Code" but I digress.
>     KJR
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005
>
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[EricJ-2]

It requires time, but it doesn't require sending an additional character.
The SMS guy had to physically click a space key like any other character.
The Morse guy didn't.

-----Original Message-----
From: David A. Belsley [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:34 PM
To: EricJ
Cc: 'Kevin Rock'; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Morse on the Tonight Show, Tonight, Friday the 13th


> I posted the math here based on the Guinness sentence that the text
> messenger had to send for his world record, but I'm too lazy to look
> for it now. The official text is 160 characters INCLUDING spaces, 136
> without. But SMS requires that spaces be keyed in where Morse does
> not. So SMS is at a throughput disadvantage from the beginning.

A space requires time in code, too.

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[David A. Belsley]

> You guys are missing something in the timing. Sending an SMS message
> requires far more than just keying in the receiver's phone number and
> the text itself. Once all this is keyed in and the send button is
> pressed, the cell system takes over. Much like the email system we are
> now using, the SMS message is forwarded into the  SMS gateway, which
> is most likely located at some central point in the cellphone
> company's system. There are amazingly few of these due to the vast
> amount of bandwidth inside the phone companies. The next time the
> system services outgoing messages, the server will start checking for
> delivery parameters, such as if the receiving phone is available and
> ready to accept a message. When all these gates have been cleared, the
> message is forwarded to the receiver. Only then does the message come
> up for display. This can happen quickly (hundreds of milliseconds), or
> rather slowly (minutes or more) depending on the loading of the SMS
> system and the overall cell system.

Jack, what you say is true.  However, you're missing the fact that the
kid was still in the process of keying in his sentence when the code
guys had finished.  It would be interesting to know just how far he had
gotten, but it is clear it was not to the end.

best wishes,

dave belsley, w1euy

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[N2EY]

In a message dated 5/14/05 4:46:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> Sending an SMS message  
> requires far more than just keying in the receiver's phone number and  
> the text itself. Once all this is keyed in and the send button is  
> pressed, the cell system takes over.

Right - but the text messagers weren't done entering the message before the
Morse ops were done. The delay in the SMS system was immaterial - they never
got to the point of sending, at least from what I saw.

Besides, the challenge was simply which mode was faster. That was clearly
demonstrated.

Oddly enough, I've encountered many a cell phone that announces an incoming
text message by sending "SMS" - in Morse!

73 de Jim, N2EY
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[N2EY]

In a message dated 5/14/05 4:33:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> Its unfortunate they had to be costumed up as 140 year old telegraphers.

I think it was a great idea!

> It may have been "cute" however it doesn't do our image much good.

Sure it does - it shows we have a sense of humor. Plus, TV is visual, and the
costumes made it clear to the audience who was who.

It should also be remembered that the text message sender was the *world
champion*, not someone selected at random.

Some
>
> would say that any publicity is good publicity but I'm not so sure in
> this case.
>

I think they did a great job and the costumes were a nice touch.

73 de Jim, N2EY
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[N2EY]

In a message dated 5/14/05 4:05:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> The official text is 160 characters INCLUDING spaces, 136 without. But
> SMS requires that spaces be keyed in where Morse does not. So SMS is at a
> throughput disadvantage from the beginning.
>

No it isn't.

Morse requires spaces between letters and words, and the spaces are longer
than some letters!

In the Australian test, btw, the text messagers used abbreviations and the
Morse ops used the straight text, yet Morse still won. Don't know if the Leno
test allowed text abbreviations - the Morse ops sent the straight text.

73 de Jim, N2EY

....looking for my green eyeshade.....

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[David A. Belsley]

> Its unfortunate they had to be costumed up as 140 year old
> telegraphers.
> It may have been "cute" however it doesn't do our image much good. Some
> would say that any publicity is good publicity but I'm not so sure in
> this case.

Boy do I have a 180 degree take on this.


best wishes,

dave belsley, w1euy
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[Buddy Brannan]

On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 06:32:33PM -0400, [hidden email] wrote:
> It should also be remembered that the text message sender was the *world
> champion*, not someone selected at random.

To my mind, this point bears repeating and emphasis. With underline,
in bold, parentheses, and a large font.

Ken, please understand I'm not saying this to diminish your skill,
Chip's skill, or your accomplishment. But they pitted the *world
champion* SMS people against two mid-speed code operators--not two
ops at the top of their art, but fairly typical morse ops working at a
speed that isn't especially noteworthy in our community. While Ken and
Chip are both undoubtedly fantastic ops and obviously skilled in their
art, they aren't especially unusual, and this bears emphasis. The best
of the best still got beat out by good, though not atypical.

Vy 73!
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV : Co-Mod. of http://www.assist.com/Pennsylvania
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[Jack Brindle]

On May 14, 2005, at 3:32 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Oddly enough, I've encountered many a cell phone that announces an  
> incoming text message by sending "SMS" - in Morse!

I have a Nokia 6360 that alerts me to incoming messages with a nice,  
slow CW 'SMS'. This was the default when I got the phone several  
years ago. It is definitely a feature!

Now to use the CW ring tone page and come up with some ring tones for  
voice calls...

And, to make this an Elecraft-related message, there must be a way to  
connect a KRC2 to the phone so that I can control things with it.


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[Tom Hammond-3]

Hi Buddy:

I suspect you don't know K7JA, who has, for the past 30+ years, been one of
the WORLD'S TOP CW CONTEST OPS!  Chip can run 'em at 40-45 WPM just as
easily as he can run 'em at 25 WPM. And, I'll bet, that if Ken's been
Chip's contesting 'partner', he's no slouch either.

It' s just that they were sending at a speed reasonable enough to fully
ensure 100 percent copy regardless of the amount of background QRM.

73,

Tom Hammond  N0SS

At 06:33 PM 5/14/05, Buddy Brannan wrote:

>On Sat, May 14, 2005 at 06:32:33PM -0400, [hidden email] wrote:
> > It should also be remembered that the text message sender was the *world
> > champion*, not someone selected at random.
>
>To my mind, this point bears repeating and emphasis. With underline,
>in bold, parentheses, and a large font.
>
>Ken, please understand I'm not saying this to diminish your skill,
>Chip's skill, or your accomplishment. But they pitted the *world
>champion* SMS people against two mid-speed code operators--not two
>ops at the top of their art, but fairly typical morse ops working at a
>speed that isn't especially noteworthy in our community. While Ken and
>Chip are both undoubtedly fantastic ops and obviously skilled in their
>art, they aren't especially unusual, and this bears emphasis. The best
>of the best still got beat out by good, though not atypical.
>
>Vy 73!
>--
>Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV : Co-Mod. of http://www.assist.com/Pennsylvania
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Protect Your Family From Disease: glyconutrients help your body
>repair, defend, and correct itself. MIT says this discovery will
>change the world: http://www.theoptimalhealthsolution.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>High tech meets high touch: What happens when a 135+-year-old company,
>modern technology, and a dynamic team come together? See for yourself
>in this free Ebook: http://www.tastybiz.com
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[Buddy Brannan]

Hi Tom,

I knew Chip was a DX contest kind of guy, but that's about all I
knew. So. I sit corrected.
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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Tom N0SS wrote:

Hi Buddy:

I suspect you don't know K7JA, who has, for the past 30+ years, been one of
the WORLD'S TOP CW CONTEST OPS!  Chip can run 'em at 40-45 WPM just as
easily as he can run 'em at 25 WPM. And, I'll bet, that if Ken's been
Chip's contesting 'partner', he's no slouch either.

It' s just that they were sending at a speed reasonable enough to fully
ensure 100 percent copy regardless of the amount of background QRM.
----------------------------\


That explains a lot, but it doesn't alter the fact that they were not
sending at anything most operators would consider QRQ.

I was impressed that Ken could copy through the racket. I could, but then I
wasn't there with all the echoes and distractions, not to mention having my
reputation on the line to win the contest <G>

That would have qualify as at least as stressful as any FCC code exam I sat
through, Amateur or commercial!

Ron AC7AC


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[Andrea Borgia]

[hidden email] wrote:

> Oddly enough, I've encountered many a cell phone that announces an incoming
> text message by sending "SMS" - in Morse!

These phones are probably manufactured by a small unknown finnish
company ;-) where a rather well-known finnish ham (OH2BH) works.

Those same phones will happily spell the company motto in code when the
active ringtone is "Long&Loud". As an exercise to the reader, work out
the name of the company 8-)

I actually bothered to create a special ringtone that says "QRZ?" and
assigned it the "HAM" caller group 8-)

B73,
Andrea.

--
Homepage: http://andrea.borgia.bo.it     /    Amateur radio: IZ4FHT
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[Sverre Holm]

-----Original Message-----

I have a Nokia 6360 that alerts me to incoming messages with a nice, slow CW
'SMS'. This was the default when I got the phone several years ago. It is
definitely a feature!

-----------

There is another SMS alert in there as well: 'Connecting people', at least
it has been there in all the Nokia phones that I have had.

I believe there is a correlation between the relatively large and active
Finiish ham population and Nokia, but maybe some Finnish hams on this list
could comment on this?

73

Sverre
LA3ZA
http://www.qsl.net/la3za/
 


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[Bob Nielsen]

On Sun, 2005-05-15 at 08:46 +0200, Andrea Borgia wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>
> > Oddly enough, I've encountered many a cell phone that announces an incoming
> > text message by sending "SMS" - in Morse!
>
> These phones are probably manufactured by a small unknown finnish
> company ;-) where a rather well-known finnish ham (OH2BH) works.
>
> Those same phones will happily spell the company motto in code when the
> active ringtone is "Long&Loud". As an exercise to the reader, work out
> the name of the company 8-)
>
> I actually bothered to create a special ringtone that says "QRZ?" and
> assigned it the "HAM" caller group 8-)

Actually my cell phone (or as the europeans say "mobile") has a tag
inside saying "Hecho en Mexico" which I assume is the Finnish way of
spelling Finland.

I think the company name was taken from a protest sign opposing a brand
of cars made in South Korea.

73, Bob N7XY


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