Mush and Manufacturers
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One of the reasons I switched allegiance from Yaesu and Ten-Tec (I was a dedicated FT-1000D user for ten years and then an early and initially enthusiastic Orion and Orion II user but lost interest when it became obvious that both Yaesu and TT could care less about feedback from their users and what features they would like to have added to the rigs' software and hardware) to Elecraft was the participation of the company principals and staff in the user forums. I see that on fine display here today. It sounds like a real problem has surfaced and the collective brainpower of the K3 community (manufacturer and users) is drilling down to a solution.
What other manufacturer would encourage users to break out their soldering irons and experimentally add capacitance to circuit? It dinged my ham budget to unload my Orions (4 Orion IIs) in order to switch to K3 but I'm happy I did (will be adding a second K3 to my station for SO2R shortly). The K3 will be constantly improved (anyone checked out the new master-slave capability? WOW I was bugging TT to add this to the Orion II 7 years ago to no avail) while the Orion's software/hardware remains static and Yaesu succeeds mostly in adding knobs and weight to their rigs (admittedly the FT-5000 is better than the train wreck FT-9000). Regarding the Mush discussion, I like the idea of decoupling hardware RF Gain and DSP Gain. This could be a interesting feature beyond controlling weak signal pileup jumbles. I learned with the Orion that one has to watch signal level into the DSP circuitry carefully. 73 Bill ----- William Hein, AA7XT (ex-AA4XT, NT1Y, AA6TT, KC6EDP) AMSAT Life Member ARRL Life Member UKSMG Member Tel +1 (970) 628-5120 Email [hidden email] Loc: DM59 Web AA7XT.com Web twitter.com/williamhein AIM / iChat / iMessage [hidden email] Skype williamhein find me on Facebook & Four Square ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I likewise applaud Elecraft's responsive to this and every other issue that has come to light. But in terms of the "static" comment, I think Ten-Tec deserves a bit more credit of late (Orion subrx upgrade, firmware, etc) Barry N1EU |
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In reply to this post by William Hein-2
I too am watching the "Mush" discussion and possible fixes,
if any, with great interest. I think there is a lot of merit to Eric's assertion of skimmer spots causing everybody to call on the same exact zero beat frequency on CW. This just adds to the problem. So recently I have been toying with setting the XIT to move my TX at least 75 Hz high when using Skimmer. I cant say if it helps or not, but it gives me a warm feeling (in my pants?) when I bust piles on first call with my little station. I run the AGC on my rig rather loose and open, with lots of "dynamic range". This causes weak signals to stay weak, but does little to manage the weak vs loud dilemma. Its impossible to manually manage this, especially in a busy contest, so to save my hearing, and since I have a bunch of this kind of stuff laying around, I have a Alesys NanoComp (a small dual channel analog compressor/limiter) in the line output that feeds my headset amp/SO2R mixer (in the process of being replaced by a microHAM u2R box). I can adjust attack, decay, hold, knee and ratio independently of, and in addition to, the internal K3 AGC system with knobs I can reach immediately. With it, I can make all the signals sound the same level or reduce the compression and open up the dynamic range as conditions change. While not a perfect solution, It works for me, YMMV. It sure would be nice not to have to have this stuff in the audio path, though. The cheap little analog compressor can get breathy and thumpy at times. Using DSP within the rig, you could adjust for that with some look ahead processing. As a previous owner of a 15 year old Kenwood TS850S loaded with expensive InRad quartz, I can unequivocally state that while I miss the audio punch the '850's transmitter provided, I dont miss the crunchy receiver. For its age, the '850 was phenomenal, but in heavy QRM, especially on SSB, it pales in comparison to the K3's unflappable receiver that never gets crackly, never gets crunchy and never does the AGC Dance of Death like I experienced on a Icom 7700 during this past SS SSB, which really surprised me for what that rig costs (and weighs!). So while we're all bitching at Eric and Wayne, from this operator's vantagepoint, it would also be nice to have an AGC/leveler in the mic circuit in addition to, and ahead of, the DSP "RF" Limiter. One of the other criticisms I hear from phone ops of the rig is its lack of "drive" which to my ear is simply very nice, wide dynamic range in the mic circuit. This is commendable for audio quality, but not so much for modulation density. I can fix this with yet another outboard box (in this case, a Radio Design Labs GCA-2 AGC amplifier), that increases modulation density before the built in "clipper" but it would be nice if it was also "built in" to remove yet another outboard box. BTW, big Kudos again to Lyle for making the TX GATE absolutely perfect! Its totally smooth and totally transparent in masking extraneous noise in my noisy shack environment. So see, its not all negatives :) Lu - W4LT # 3192 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Did you try chopping all the lows and boosting the highs in the TX
equalizer? It may not be broadcast quality audio then, but that provides a lot more 'punch' in the audio, which helps in DXing but not so much for the local chat nets (then turn on ESSB too). Depending on your voice characteristics, you might also want to boost the midrange. Hint: If you have a P3, unplug the RS-232 connection(s) and it will show you your audio during transmit. That way, you don't have to trust your ears to make the adjustments in timbre. Request (Wayne/Eric): Can we make the P3 have this ability without unplugging the I/O? It's VERY handy to watch the transmit audio. 73, Rick WA6NHC -----Original Message----- From: Lu Romero ...it would also be nice to have an AGC/leveler in the mic circuit in addition to, and ahead of, the DSP "RF" Limiter. One of the other criticisms I hear from phone ops of the rig is its lack of "drive" which to my ear is simply very nice, wide dynamic range in the mic circuit. This is commendable for audio quality, but not so much for modulation density. I can fix this with yet another outboard box (in this case, a Radio Design Labs GCA-2 AGC amplifier), that increases modulation density before the built in "clipper" but it would be nice if it was also "built in" to remove yet another outboard box. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT
Ron:
> > Maybe I'm just a dinosaur waiting for the next asteroid, but > as a Novice I learned it was bad practice ever to transmit on > top of another station for any reason and, when listening for > calls, always tune up and down a bit from the calling frequency. > Its the cluster/Skimmer feeding frenzy effect! Although Im not all that rare, in FQP and in SS Im a bit rare (My section is West Central Florida) and I always know when Im spotted by the pile of callers that call zero beat. > It's good to see that practice still produces results. I agree. But not everyone does, and I think those that do are the minority. Such is life. > > I frequently have the AGC off and protect my ears with the > hard limiter built into the K3: CONFIG:AF LIM. > I use AF LIMIT as well. I find AF LIMIT is quite useful on 160 and 80 especially here in the south. A setting of 17-19 tunrs lightning crashes into white noise and you can still hear signals below it. Alas, my cheap compressor works pretty well for what it is, and it beats having it sit on the table as a paperweight. I hate things that are not being used. :) -lu-W4LT- ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Prior to cluster and RBN we would just be listening to band noise and no
callers.......... :) Mike W0MU W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net On 12/5/2011 4:05 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote: > Ron: > >> Maybe I'm just a dinosaur waiting for the next asteroid, but >> as a Novice I learned it was bad practice ever to transmit on >> top of another station for any reason and, when listening for >> calls, always tune up and down a bit from the calling frequency. >> > Its the cluster/Skimmer feeding frenzy effect! Although Im not all that > rare, in FQP and in SS Im a bit rare (My section is West Central Florida) > and I always know when Im spotted by the pile of callers that call zero > beat. > >> It's good to see that practice still produces results. > I agree. But not everyone does, and I think those that do are the minority. > Such is life. > >> I frequently have the AGC off and protect my ears with the >> hard limiter built into the K3: CONFIG:AF LIM. >> > I use AF LIMIT as well. I find AF LIMIT is quite useful on 160 and 80 > especially here in the south. A setting of 17-19 tunrs lightning crashes > into white noise and you can still hear signals below it. Alas, my cheap > compressor works pretty well for what it is, and it beats having it sit on > the table as a paperweight. > > I hate things that are not being used. :) > > -lu-W4LT- > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC
Rick:
> > Did you try chopping all the lows and boosting the highs in > the TX equalizer? It may not be broadcast quality audio > then, but that provides a lot more 'punch' in the audio, > which helps in DXing but not so much for the local chat nets > (then turn on ESSB too). Depending on your voice > characteristics, you might also want to boost the midrange. > Yes, ad infinitum. Its not a frequency response thing, its a modulation density thing. Since the DSP "Processor" works akin to an RF Clipper (Or so Im told), input leveling is critical to raise the average power (decrease the ratio between peaks and valleys PRE-LIMITING) because this particular audio chain has a somewhat narrow band between clarity and distortion. See what you sound like if you increase the COMP setting beyond 25... Fuzzy, eh? With AGC leveling pre-limiter, I dont need to push the COMP beyond 20-22 at most. Denser, but less fuzzy, as I clip lesser amounts of the audio waveform. The COMP software doesnt have to hack off large chunks of overshooting levels to bring up the valleys, because the more you clip, the more distortion you add (I know its a digital process, but it SOUNDS like overruning the ADC to me, and digital audio is unforgiving when you overshoot the ADC threshold). AGC helps here to keep the signal in the sweet spot for the COMP algorythms. There seems to be a little AGC action in the rig's audio chain, but we dont have a handle for it and every voice and mic combination is different. Also, a little compression goes a long way in pre-conditioning a signal for later clipping, you dont want to get carried away by turning the knobs to 11. Compressing the voice waveform a bit, (I use 2:1) adding AGC to "level" the waveform then limiting the result of the compression increases modulation density and keeps the audio peaks and valleys within the DSP "window" for best performance (IMO, others will undoubtedly disagree!). Listen to your local AM Talk broadcaster critically (If you are in a larger market... Some of the small market guys sound like crap!) to understand the process. Or listen to a Kenny Chesney song, his engineers really do an outstanding job of making his voice stand out with both punch and clarity. Some of the best voice processing I have heard lately is on the Kenny Chesney song "I Go Back". Am I asking a lot from a Ham Rig's audio chain? Probably, but it never hurts to ask! > > Hint: If you have a P3, unplug the RS-232 connection(s) and > it will show you your audio during transmit. That way, you > don't have to trust your ears to make the adjustments in timbre. > Yes, I know that trick. There are others I have tried that use the P3 as a "off air" receiver as well. > Request (Wayne/Eric): Can we make the P3 have this ability > without unplugging the I/O? It's VERY handy to watch the > transmit audio. > I hear that this is in the works. -lu-W4LT- ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Lu, Rick and others interested ---
Your question seems to relate to SSB operation - as far as I know, the "mush" problems that have been reported are for CW signals. It may be that many SSB signals of similar levels will create a similar effect, but when one adds the passband, (hi-cut, lo-cut) and the RX EQ settings to the mix, things begin to get very complex fast. Since the reported problem are on the receiving end, I cannot conceive any situation where changing the TX EQ would make any difference in the signal that is being *received* by the K3. This is an important issue to those who are experiencing it (and that is a lot of the DX-peditioners and contesters that the K3 was designed to assist the most), and the parameters of the problem are not yet well understood. So, my request is that everyone read the conditions carefully so that if you can add data to the search, please do that, but if what you are referring to is different than the main focus, please change the subject line so we do not confuse two different things. This is an important topic for Elecraft, and as far as I know, there are no consistent and reproducible parameters to this situation. In my long experience of designing and conducting tests on large system computing systems, if a "problem" could not be described in parameters that make it reproducible, then it is not considered a "problem" because it cannot be solved. OTOH, I once had a manager whose favorite expression was "perception is 90% of reality" - so while this "problem" is not really something that can be defined sufficiently to provide a fix (at this point in time), it is really encouraging that Elecraft is interested and pro-active in attempting to define the problem sufficiently to fix it. Bottom line - if you have perceived the problem, please provide all the relevant information that you can so this problem can be well described, defined, and made reproducible. Until the problem can be reproduced in the lab environment, one will never be able to say whether it is fixed or not. If you can help, please do. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/5/2011 6:35 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote: > Rick: > >> Did you try chopping all the lows and boosting the highs in >> the TX equalizer? It may not be broadcast quality audio >> then, but that provides a lot more 'punch' in the audio, >> which helps in DXing but not so much for the local chat nets >> (then turn on ESSB too). Depending on your voice >> characteristics, you might also want to boost the midrange. >> > Yes, ad infinitum. Its not a frequency response thing, its a modulation > density thing. Since the DSP "Processor" works akin to an RF Clipper (Or so > Im told), input leveling is critical to raise the average power (decrease > the ratio between peaks and valleys PRE-LIMITING) because this particular > audio chain has a somewhat narrow band between clarity and distortion. See > what you sound like if you increase the COMP setting beyond 25... Fuzzy, eh? > With AGC leveling pre-limiter, I dont need to push the COMP beyond 20-22 at > most. Denser, but less fuzzy, as I clip lesser amounts of the audio > waveform. The COMP software doesnt have to hack off large chunks of > overshooting levels to bring up the valleys, because the more you clip, the > more distortion you add (I know its a digital process, but it SOUNDS like > overruning the ADC to me, and digital audio is unforgiving when you > overshoot the ADC threshold). > > AGC helps here to keep the signal in the sweet spot for the COMP algorythms. > There seems to be a little AGC action in the rig's audio chain, but we dont > have a handle for it and every voice and mic combination is different. Also, > a little compression goes a long way in pre-conditioning a signal for later > clipping, you dont want to get carried away by turning the knobs to 11. > Compressing the voice waveform a bit, (I use 2:1) adding AGC to "level" the > waveform then limiting the result of the compression increases modulation > density and keeps the audio peaks and valleys within the DSP "window" for > best performance (IMO, others will undoubtedly disagree!). > > Listen to your local AM Talk broadcaster critically (If you are in a larger > market... Some of the small market guys sound like crap!) to understand the > process. Or listen to a Kenny Chesney song, his engineers really do an > outstanding job of making his voice stand out with both punch and clarity. > Some of the best voice processing I have heard lately is on the Kenny > Chesney song "I Go Back". > > Am I asking a lot from a Ham Rig's audio chain? Probably, but it never > hurts to ask! > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by w0mu
I'm not saying that everyone should do this, but I still prefer to seek
out contacts the old-fashioned way. While it's possible to get DXCC during a contest, I'd rather have the chance to make some effort at communicating with the DX operator, provided he was willing. The one that really chafes me is allowing those in CW contests to use any CW decoding mechanism other than the ears and brain. Seems like they should have to operate in an assisted category. 73 de Jim - AD6CW On 12/5/2011 4:11 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: > Not in my experience, Mike. > > I did a fair bit of DX-chasing and contesting in the 60's and, on contest > days, the bands were wall-to-wall signals. True, the scores weren't as high > as today, but we were logging with pencil and paper can actually talking or > using the key to transmit and our ears to copy. > > DXCC was a real challenge that made the certificate a prized possession. For > many Hams it took years, sometimes decades, to achieve DXCC because one had > to catch a station by tuning around. Of course, QST and other magazines > published the operating schedules for various DX-peditions but it still took > some careful listening to find them. > > I'm not disparaging today's Hams with their computers and internet support, > but I take issue with the idea that contacts weren't readily available. > > 73, > > Ron AC7AC > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Got it. Thank you. De WA6NHC
-----Original Message----- From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 4:09 PM To: [hidden email] Cc: 'Rick Bates'; 'Elecraft' Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Mush and Manufacturers Lu, Rick and others interested --- Your question seems to relate to SSB operation - as far as I know, the "mush" problems that have been reported are for CW signals. It may be that many SSB signals of similar levels will create a similar effect, but when one adds the passband, (hi-cut, lo-cut) and the RX EQ settings to the mix, things begin to get very complex fast. Since the reported problem are on the receiving end, I cannot conceive any situation where changing the TX EQ would make any difference in the signal that is being *received* by the K3. This is an important issue to those who are experiencing it (and that is a lot of the DX-peditioners and contesters that the K3 was designed to assist the most), and the parameters of the problem are not yet well understood. So, my request is that everyone read the conditions carefully so that if you can add data to the search, please do that, but if what you are referring to is different than the main focus, please change the subject line so we do not confuse two different things. This is an important topic for Elecraft, and as far as I know, there are no consistent and reproducible parameters to this situation. In my long experience of designing and conducting tests on large system computing systems, if a "problem" could not be described in parameters that make it reproducible, then it is not considered a "problem" because it cannot be solved. OTOH, I once had a manager whose favorite expression was "perception is 90% of reality" - so while this "problem" is not really something that can be defined sufficiently to provide a fix (at this point in time), it is really encouraging that Elecraft is interested and pro-active in attempting to define the problem sufficiently to fix it. Bottom line - if you have perceived the problem, please provide all the relevant information that you can so this problem can be well described, defined, and made reproducible. Until the problem can be reproduced in the lab environment, one will never be able to say whether it is fixed or not. If you can help, please do. 73, Don W3FPR On 12/5/2011 6:35 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote: > Rick: > >> Did you try chopping all the lows and boosting the highs in >> the TX equalizer? It may not be broadcast quality audio >> then, but that provides a lot more 'punch' in the audio, >> which helps in DXing but not so much for the local chat nets >> (then turn on ESSB too). Depending on your voice >> characteristics, you might also want to boost the midrange. >> > Yes, ad infinitum. Its not a frequency response thing, its a modulation > density thing. Since the DSP "Processor" works akin to an RF Clipper (Or > Im told), input leveling is critical to raise the average power (decrease > the ratio between peaks and valleys PRE-LIMITING) because this particular > audio chain has a somewhat narrow band between clarity and distortion. See > what you sound like if you increase the COMP setting beyond 25... Fuzzy, eh? > With AGC leveling pre-limiter, I dont need to push the COMP beyond 20-22 at > most. Denser, but less fuzzy, as I clip lesser amounts of the audio > waveform. The COMP software doesnt have to hack off large chunks of > overshooting levels to bring up the valleys, because the more you clip, the > more distortion you add (I know its a digital process, but it SOUNDS like > overruning the ADC to me, and digital audio is unforgiving when you > overshoot the ADC threshold). > > AGC helps here to keep the signal in the sweet spot for the COMP algorythms. > There seems to be a little AGC action in the rig's audio chain, but we dont > have a handle for it and every voice and mic combination is different. Also, > a little compression goes a long way in pre-conditioning a signal for later > clipping, you dont want to get carried away by turning the knobs to 11. > Compressing the voice waveform a bit, (I use 2:1) adding AGC to "level" the > waveform then limiting the result of the compression increases modulation > density and keeps the audio peaks and valleys within the DSP "window" for > best performance (IMO, others will undoubtedly disagree!). > > Listen to your local AM Talk broadcaster critically (If you are in a larger > market... Some of the small market guys sound like crap!) to understand the > process. Or listen to a Kenny Chesney song, his engineers really do an > outstanding job of making his voice stand out with both punch and clarity. > Some of the best voice processing I have heard lately is on the Kenny > Chesney song "I Go Back". > > Am I asking a lot from a Ham Rig's audio chain? Probably, but it never > hurts to ask! > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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