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Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

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Gerry Hull

Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

I was operating VE4EA in NAQP this weekend...

A couple of people said the CW sounded mushy.

I was running QSK, with N1MM DTR CW Keying using the KUSB.

I noticed, on the sidetone, that it got mushy around 40 wpm.

I don't know Cary's firmware rev. Is there a fix for this?

(This is with RIT off).

Interestingly, I also used the K3S at VY1AAA, at the same speeds. No
issues.

Did anyone notice this on the sig? Is there a later firmware that
addresses his issue?

73,

Gerry, W1VE / VE1RM
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Bill Frantz

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

I don't know if this applies to your station, but if you are
using a level converter circuit similar to the one in Fred's KX3
book -- 10K input resistor to NPN base with a diode to
ground/emitter and a .1 MFD cap between the collector/output and
ground -- this might apply.

I was using the circuit to level translate RS-232 input to an
Arduino. I discovered that the .1 MFD cap so distorted the
signal waveform that it wouldn't decode in the Arduino. Removing
the cap fixed the problem.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 1/11/16 at 8:14 AM, [hidden email] (Gerry Hull) wrote:

>I was operating VE4EA in NAQP this weekend...
>
>A couple of people said the CW sounded mushy.
>
>I was running QSK, with N1MM DTR CW Keying using the KUSB.
>
>I noticed, on the sidetone, that it got mushy around 40 wpm.
>
>I don't know Cary's firmware rev. Is there a fix for this?
>
>(This is with RIT off).
>
>Interestingly, I also used the K3S at VY1AAA, at the same speeds. No
>issues.
>
>Did anyone notice this on the sig? Is there a later firmware that
>addresses his issue?
>
>73,
>
>Gerry, W1VE / VE1RM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |The nice thing about standards| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 |is there are so many to choose| 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |from. - Andrew Tanenbaum | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Vic Rosenthal

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

In reply to this post by Gerry Hull

Is it a K3 (not K3S) which did NOT have its synthesizer upgraded?
If so, then you MUST have QRQ mode turned on or you will see poor CW
above about 35 wpm. In addition, note that QRQ mode is automatically
disabled when you turn RIT/XIT on or use SPLIT.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 11 Jan 2016 18:14, Gerry Hull wrote:

> I was operating VE4EA in NAQP this weekend...
>
> A couple of people said the CW sounded mushy.
>
> I was running QSK, with N1MM DTR CW Keying using the KUSB.
>
> I noticed, on the sidetone, that it got mushy around 40 wpm.
>
> I don't know Cary's firmware rev. Is there a fix for this?
>
> (This is with RIT off).
>
> Interestingly, I also used the K3S at VY1AAA, at the same speeds. No
> issues.
>
> Did anyone notice this on the sig? Is there a later firmware that
> addresses his issue?
>
> 73,
>
> Gerry, W1VE / VE1RM

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Gerry Hull

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

Hi Vic,

This is K3, not K3s, no synth upgrade (yet!). This is a KUSB cable for CW
keying, Stock.

You know, I've never really noticed a difference with QRQ on or off.

But, I do see a big difference when I go between 38 and 40 WPM. I'll try
the QRQ mode again and see. I'll also test with someone with QSK on and
off.

Thanks,

73, Gerry W1VE / VE1RM

Gerry Hull, W1VE | Hancock, NH USA | +1-603-499-7373
AKA: VE1RM | VY2CDX | VO1CDX | 6Y6C | 8P9RM
<http://www.yccc.org> <http://www.yccc.org/>
<http://www.facebook.com/gerryhull>
<https://plus.google.com/+GerryHull/posts> <http://www.twitter.com/w1ve>

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is it a K3 (not K3S) which did NOT have its synthesizer upgraded?
> If so, then you MUST have QRQ mode turned on or you will see poor CW above
> about 35 wpm. In addition, note that QRQ mode is automatically disabled
> when you turn RIT/XIT on or use SPLIT.
>
> 73,
> Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
> Rehovot, Israel
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>
>
> On 11 Jan 2016 18:14, Gerry Hull wrote:
>
>> I was operating VE4EA in NAQP this weekend...
>>
>> A couple of people said the CW sounded mushy.
>>
>> I was running QSK, with N1MM DTR CW Keying using the KUSB.
>>
>> I noticed, on the sidetone, that it got mushy around 40 wpm.
>>
>> I don't know Cary's firmware rev. Is there a fix for this?
>>
>> (This is with RIT off).
>>
>> Interestingly, I also used the K3S at VY1AAA, at the same speeds. No
>> issues.
>>
>> Did anyone notice this on the sig? Is there a later firmware that
>> addresses his issue?
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Gerry, W1VE / VE1RM
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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>

Vic Rosenthal

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

A K3 with the old synth will sound bad at 38 wpm with any keying method
unless QRQ is on.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 11 Jan 2016 21:07, Gerry Hull wrote:

> Hi Vic,
>
> This is K3, not K3s, no synth upgrade (yet!). This is a KUSB cable for
> CW keying, Stock.
>
> You know, I've never really noticed a difference with QRQ on or off.
>
> But, I do see a big difference when I go between 38 and 40 WPM. I'll
> try the QRQ mode again and see. I'll also test with someone with QSK on
> and off.
>
> Thanks,
>
> 73, Gerry W1VE / VE1RM

wayne burdick

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gerry Hull

I don't think "mushy" is the right term. It's jitter in the CW envelope timing. Generally jitter is less than +/- 1 ms, but with the old synth, QRQ mode turned off, and the code speed in a certain range (around 40 WPM), it can be a bit worse.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Gerry Hull <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Vic,
>
> This is K3, not K3s, no synth upgrade (yet!). This is a KUSB cable for CW
> keying, Stock.
>
> You know, I've never really noticed a difference with QRQ on or off.
>
> But, I do see a big difference when I go between 38 and 40 WPM. I'll try
> the QRQ mode again and see. I'll also test with someone with QSK on and
> off.
>
> Thanks,
>
> 73, Gerry W1VE / VE1RM

Gerry Hull

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

One listener expressed it as "clipped dits". I guess at 40wpm, 1mS would
make enough of a difference in dit length.

Thanks for all the feedback.

73, Gerry W1VE / VE1RM

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't think "mushy" is the right term. It's jitter in the CW envelope
> timing. Generally jitter is less than +/- 1 ms, but with the old synth, QRQ
> mode turned off, and the code speed in a certain range (around 40 WPM), it
> can be a bit worse.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Gerry Hull <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Vic,
> >
> > This is K3, not K3s, no synth upgrade (yet!). This is a KUSB cable for
> CW
> > keying, Stock.
> >
> > You know, I've never really noticed a difference with QRQ on or off.
> >
> > But, I do see a big difference when I go between 38 and 40 WPM. I'll
> try
> > the QRQ mode again and see. I'll also test with someone with QSK on and
> > off.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > 73, Gerry W1VE / VE1RM
>
>
>

dmb@lightstream.net

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

"Clipped dits" is a good description. Upgrading the synth(s) will fix
this, even with QRQ mode turned off. In fact it's so good, that I don't
even use QRQ mode anymore so there is no change when RIT/XIT or Split
modes are engaged. You'll also find that the K3 now accurately follows an
external keyer, whereas before the 'clipping' was evident at higher
speeds.

73, Dale WA8SRA

Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

In reply to this post by Gerry Hull

Clipped dits would be close enough. Your ear knows that the starts and
stops of bauds are not in correct relationship to each other and with other
bauds, it sounds different, not right, but picking a word to describe that
is hard.

73, Guy K2AV.

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Gerry Hull <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One listener expressed it as "clipped dits". I guess at 40wpm, 1mS would
> make enough of a difference in dit length.
>
> Thanks for all the feedback.
>
> 73, Gerry W1VE / VE1RM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:39 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I don't think "mushy" is the right term. It's jitter in the CW envelope
> > timing. Generally jitter is less than +/- 1 ms, but with the old synth,
> QRQ
> > mode turned off, and the code speed in a certain range (around 40 WPM),
> it
> > can be a bit worse.
> >
> > 73,
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
> >
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Gerry Hull <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Vic,
> > >
> > > This is K3, not K3s, no synth upgrade (yet!). This is a KUSB cable
> for
> > CW
> > > keying, Stock.
> > >
> > > You know, I've never really noticed a difference with QRQ on or off.
> > >
> > > But, I do see a big difference when I go between 38 and 40 WPM. I'll
> > try
> > > the QRQ mode again and see. I'll also test with someone with QSK on
> and
> > > off.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > 73, Gerry W1VE / VE1RM
> >
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

Jim Sheldon

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

In reply to this post by Gerry Hull

Oh yes,
The synthesizer upgrade isn't cheap, especially if you have two
receivers (you have to upgrade the synth for each receiver, as one new
one can't coexist with one old one, but from experience, I've found the
keying sounds much cleaner with the new synthesizer, even at slower
speeds and it actually helped clean up the dits on my bugs. The bugs
sounded so much different (better) with the new synthesizers, I had to
totally readjust them.

If you are a really serious QRQ or even medium QRQ (40-50 wpm) the
synthesizer upgrade IMO is a must do. Unless you are really screaming
along at 70+, you may even forget that QRQ mode ever existed in the K3
and as previously stated, you won't have to lose your QRQ operation to
run split or use the RIT at around 50 and below. (Split and RIT
automatically turn QRQ mode off, at least in an unmodified K3.)

Jim - W0EB

>"Clipped dits" is a good description. Upgrading the synth(s) will fix
>this, even with QRQ mode turned off. In fact it's so good, that I don't
>even use QRQ mode anymore so there is no change when RIT/XIT or Split
>modes are engaged. You'll also find that the K3 now accurately follows
>an
>external keyer, whereas before the 'clipping' was evident at higher
>speeds.
>
>73, Dale WA8SRA
>

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Gerry Hull

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

Hey Jim,

I'm a contester... so go much above 45 and the rate starts to drop... but
when I have a serious pile, I go from 38 to 40 or 42. So having a good
sounding K3 is important. I used to be a QRQ rag chewer in my younger days
-- wish I had a rig as nice as a K3 back then; 60 to 70 was my enjoyable
range. I had an Al Helfrick CMOS CW Keyboard.

I popped the front end my personal K3 attempting to do an in-band mult
(400' sep of antennas, but it did not matter) ; so it's off the Elecraft
to get fixed, and to get the synth!!

From the start of this thread: I was using my friend, Cary, VE4EA's K3,
which does not have the new synth. I was remote, but using N1MM and the
KUSB. We will get his set up properly as well.

73, Gerry W1VE / VE1RM

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Jim Sheldon <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Oh yes,
> The synthesizer upgrade isn't cheap, especially if you have two receivers
> (you have to upgrade the synth for each receiver, as one new one can't
> coexist with one old one, but from experience, I've found the keying sounds
> much cleaner with the new synthesizer, even at slower speeds and it
> actually helped clean up the dits on my bugs. The bugs sounded so much
> different (better) with the new synthesizers, I had to totally readjust
> them.
>
> If you are a really serious QRQ or even medium QRQ (40-50 wpm) the
> synthesizer upgrade IMO is a must do. Unless you are really screaming
> along at 70+, you may even forget that QRQ mode ever existed in the K3 and
> as previously stated, you won't have to lose your QRQ operation to run
> split or use the RIT at around 50 and below. (Split and RIT automatically
> turn QRQ mode off, at least in an unmodified K3.)
>
> Jim - W0EB
>
>
> "Clipped dits" is a good description. Upgrading the synth(s) will fix
>> this, even with QRQ mode turned off. In fact it's so good, that I don't
>> even use QRQ mode anymore so there is no change when RIT/XIT or Split
>> modes are engaged. You'll also find that the K3 now accurately follows an
>> external keyer, whereas before the 'clipping' was evident at higher
>> speeds.
>>
>> 73, Dale WA8SRA
>>
>>
>
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> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Mushy CW in QSK at 38 wpm and above...

In reply to this post by Gerry Hull

On Mon,1/11/2016 8:14 AM, Gerry Hull wrote:
> Did anyone notice this on the sig?

Sort of, but I was so thrilled to get you 80M mult that I paid no
attention to it. :)

73, Jim K9YC
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