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My "Attitude"

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Jim Brown-10

My "Attitude"

Crew,

Some feel that my posts are sometimes harshly worded. Perhaps they
are. But it seems to me that someone with a General Class ham
license, and especilly someone with an Extra Class ticket, ought to
have spent some time studying something more than the Study Guide to
pass the exam. This is ham radio, not CB radio. A ham license is not
a boxtop license. As hams, we are granted rather extensive operating
privileges on the basis of our technical knowledge, our advancement
of the state of the art, and our preparedness for emergencies. As
hams, it is our responsibility to STUDY this stuff.

The ARRL Handbook is very well written, and includes chapters that
cover all of this material in a manner that is quite readable. You
don't have to have a lot of math or physics or engineering background
to understand it. All you have to do is make a serious effort.

I admit to being a grandfatherly curmudgeon. And I'm probably going
to stay that way until they throw dirt on me.

73,

Jim Brown K9YC

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K8RDD

Re: My "Attitude"

Or maybe you don't listen very well. I said nothing about a several volt
signal. I'm talking about 40 over s9. Maybe I should have explained it
better to the group. No the nb is not on as this will cause distortion
depending upon the blanking level. (IF) blanking. I expected that some would
trust that others actually know as much or more than some and know better
than making the mistake of feeding a several volt signal or having the
blanker on at a high level and not seeing distortion. Or maybe we can be
helpful and not flame. This is not cb so maybe we should be less critical of
others. Cb'ers would flame. And you have no idea that I'm an EE for General
Electric. I'll forgive you. Maybe we can just relax and act like ham's not
Cb'ers.. ;)
Randy
K8RDD
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 4:23 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] My "Attitude"

> Crew,
>
> Some feel that my posts are sometimes harshly worded. Perhaps they
> are. But it seems to me that someone with a General Class ham
> license, and especilly someone with an Extra Class ticket, ought to
> have spent some time studying something more than the Study Guide to
> pass the exam. This is ham radio, not CB radio. A ham license is not
> a boxtop license. As hams, we are granted rather extensive operating
> privileges on the basis of our technical knowledge, our advancement
> of the state of the art, and our preparedness for emergencies. As
> hams, it is our responsibility to STUDY this stuff.
>
> The ARRL Handbook is very well written, and includes chapters that
> cover all of this material in a manner that is quite readable. You
> don't have to have a lot of math or physics or engineering background
> to understand it. All you have to do is make a serious effort.
>
> I admit to being a grandfatherly curmudgeon. And I'm probably going
> to stay that way until they throw dirt on me.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim Brown K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Jim Brown-10

Re: My "Attitude"

On Mon, 4 May 2009 16:55:02 -0400, Randy Downs wrote:

>Or maybe you don't listen very well.

Possible. But I sure thought I read that the overload was occuring
on another mobile "parked in the same driveway" and the signal from
a dipole used by another station in whose driveway they were parked.
Do the math on that and you can get several volts, depending on
antenna types, directivity, and proximity. S-meters are notoriously
inaccurate, especially at their upper and lower limits, even on a
K3.

73,

Jim K9YC

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Guy, K2AV

Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

Two 100w mobiles in the same driveway and expecting linear response from the
RX in one while transmitting on the other? Talking about volts across the
antenna jack (or any of the connecting cables) here. Who's the EE? S9 is
50 uv. 1 volt = 20 log 1/ .000050 = 86 over S9. Maybe ten volts on the
antenna. That's 106 over S9.

Hearing some kind of distortion on a 100 over S9 signal is some kind of
desperately grave trouble in a K3 trouble worth attention? Really want
Wayne spend precious development time figuring that out? Personally I vote
for 10 Hz granularity on CW using width and shift.

Thought the customary form of communication from thirty feet was audio off
the lips. Need 100 watts on 60m to communicate thirty feet? Audio
distortion could be the driveway version of RF in the shack. 10 volts
externally imposed RF wandering around on your cable of choice is a formula
for wierdness no matter where the station.

Someone is really lucky they didn't smoke something. And if the K3 did get
toasted in this driveway radio demolition derby, that would be the K3's
fault too, right? Double fault, K3 was distorting the audio while the front
end was being roasted. Bad K3. Bad K3.

Some of the radios bandied about earlier were specifically designed in World
War II to survive conditions related to an enemy was trying to kill the
operator. I'd call that a design standard specifically requested and paid
for. Since one tank could be next to another, I'd call that reasonable.

Such radios ARE still made and paid for. You really want to go pay for
military grade radios, you can get them, at a price far exceeding the MSRP
for a K3. Use a kilowatt in your driveway. No problem. Use 10 kw in your
driveway like the CB powerfests. No problem.

Personally I'd like to keep the features I pay for confined to peacetime,
and it does not occur to me as good practice to be transmitting high power
in the same driveway with another radio on-band with a tuned antenna.
Others may see it differently but I consider the situation in the first
paragraph as being careless with a friend's property.

We have contest stations with such situations possible, but we use filters,
stubs, remote receiving antennas, etc, to make it possible to operate with
nowhere near a volt on-band. Sometimes use radios borrowed from friends,
and guess who pays to repair a smoked front-end, and guess which embarrassed
soul has to explain same to friend.

Whether the audio was distorted in a smoke-it episode is really a low grade
consideration.

73, Guy.

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ROBERT CARROLL-4

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

Guy-

That's a nice response to a really ridiculous complaint.
73
Bob W2WG

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger, K2AV
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:50 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

Two 100w mobiles in the same driveway and expecting linear response from the

RX in one while transmitting on the other? Talking about volts across the
antenna jack (or any of the connecting cables) here. Who's the EE? S9 is
50 uv. 1 volt = 20 log 1/ .000050 = 86 over S9. Maybe ten volts on the
antenna. That's 106 over S9.

Hearing some kind of distortion on a 100 over S9 signal is some kind of
desperately grave trouble in a K3 trouble worth attention? Really want
Wayne spend precious development time figuring that out? Personally I vote
for 10 Hz granularity on CW using width and shift.

Thought the customary form of communication from thirty feet was audio off
the lips. Need 100 watts on 60m to communicate thirty feet? Audio
distortion could be the driveway version of RF in the shack. 10 volts
externally imposed RF wandering around on your cable of choice is a formula
for wierdness no matter where the station.

Someone is really lucky they didn't smoke something. And if the K3 did get
toasted in this driveway radio demolition derby, that would be the K3's
fault too, right? Double fault, K3 was distorting the audio while the front

end was being roasted. Bad K3. Bad K3.

Some of the radios bandied about earlier were specifically designed in World

War II to survive conditions related to an enemy was trying to kill the
operator. I'd call that a design standard specifically requested and paid
for. Since one tank could be next to another, I'd call that reasonable.

Such radios ARE still made and paid for. You really want to go pay for
military grade radios, you can get them, at a price far exceeding the MSRP
for a K3. Use a kilowatt in your driveway. No problem. Use 10 kw in your
driveway like the CB powerfests. No problem.

Personally I'd like to keep the features I pay for confined to peacetime,
and it does not occur to me as good practice to be transmitting high power
in the same driveway with another radio on-band with a tuned antenna.
Others may see it differently but I consider the situation in the first
paragraph as being careless with a friend's property.

We have contest stations with such situations possible, but we use filters,
stubs, remote receiving antennas, etc, to make it possible to operate with
nowhere near a volt on-band. Sometimes use radios borrowed from friends,
and guess who pays to repair a smoked front-end, and guess which embarrassed

soul has to explain same to friend.

Whether the audio was distorted in a smoke-it episode is really a low grade
consideration.

73, Guy.

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Steve Ellington

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

The complaint was not "ridiculous". The original observation was....The K3
distorts and the FT-817 doesn't under the same conditions.

The poor guy was called stupid, ridiculous, ignorant and told he needs to
"study" and go back to school.

I think he has a good question and I have yet to see a logical answer.
Claims that the K3 is "souped up" and exempt from strong signal overload is
the ridiculous part!

If the K3 distorts on 109DB signals and the FT-817 doesn't then so be it.
It's a weakness. Just leave it at that. I'm sure the 817 has plenty more
weaknesses!

Let's not let this list get like the TenTec reflector. Mention something
negative there and you are immediately put down or soon thrown off.

I've recently subscribed to the IC-7600 Yahoo group just to watch how the
new radio was doing. So far I've seen two concerns. Some have a dimmer
screen saver than others and a few have had to do a master reset because of
audio drop out and it's starting to look like a glitch in some 3rd party rig
control program causing that. Otherwise, everyone seems satisfied. Of
course, those guys know that ICOM isn't going to respond to anything that's
said so maybe they just don't bother.

I'm still enjoying my K3. Things have been rather lopsided lately however. I
am able to copy cw through the QRN better than the other guy, especially
when I take advantage of the NR. This gives me er...maybe 6db advantage or
so. Therefore I've ordered an ALS-600 to help make up the difference. The
K3's superior receiver is costing me money!
Steve Ellington
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Carroll" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

> Guy-
>
> That's a nice response to a really ridiculous complaint.
> 73
> Bob W2WG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger, K2AV
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:50 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby
>
> Two 100w mobiles in the same driveway and expecting linear response from
> the
>
> RX in one while transmitting on the other? Talking about volts across the
> antenna jack (or any of the connecting cables) here. Who's the EE? S9 is
> 50 uv. 1 volt = 20 log 1/ .000050 = 86 over S9. Maybe ten volts on the
> antenna. That's 106 over S9.
>
> Hearing some kind of distortion on a 100 over S9 signal is some kind of
> desperately grave trouble in a K3 trouble worth attention? Really want
> Wayne spend precious development time figuring that out? Personally I
> vote
> for 10 Hz granularity on CW using width and shift.
>
> Thought the customary form of communication from thirty feet was audio off
> the lips. Need 100 watts on 60m to communicate thirty feet? Audio
> distortion could be the driveway version of RF in the shack. 10 volts
> externally imposed RF wandering around on your cable of choice is a
> formula
> for wierdness no matter where the station.
>
> Someone is really lucky they didn't smoke something. And if the K3 did
> get
> toasted in this driveway radio demolition derby, that would be the K3's
> fault too, right? Double fault, K3 was distorting the audio while the
> front
>
> end was being roasted. Bad K3. Bad K3.
>
> Some of the radios bandied about earlier were specifically designed in
> World
>
> War II to survive conditions related to an enemy was trying to kill the
> operator. I'd call that a design standard specifically requested and paid
> for. Since one tank could be next to another, I'd call that reasonable.
>
> Such radios ARE still made and paid for. You really want to go pay for
> military grade radios, you can get them, at a price far exceeding the MSRP
> for a K3. Use a kilowatt in your driveway. No problem. Use 10 kw in your
> driveway like the CB powerfests. No problem.
>
> Personally I'd like to keep the features I pay for confined to peacetime,
> and it does not occur to me as good practice to be transmitting high power
> in the same driveway with another radio on-band with a tuned antenna.
> Others may see it differently but I consider the situation in the first
> paragraph as being careless with a friend's property.
>
> We have contest stations with such situations possible, but we use
> filters,
> stubs, remote receiving antennas, etc, to make it possible to operate
> with
> nowhere near a volt on-band. Sometimes use radios borrowed from friends,
> and guess who pays to repair a smoked front-end, and guess which
> embarrassed
>
> soul has to explain same to friend.
>
> Whether the audio was distorted in a smoke-it episode is really a low
> grade
> consideration.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

JIM DAVIS-11

Re: My "Attitude"

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On Mon, 04 May 2009 13:23:40 -0700
"Jim Brown" <[hidden email]> wrote:

******************************************************************************************
Jim,

There's nothing wrong with your "attitude" ! In fact I agree with it completely, as it seems
that the people that are getting into the hobby recently really don't know how to fully utilize
their equipment nor their antenna arrays. One buddy of mine who recently got his "EXTRA" (no-code)
and he had even suggested that guys who wanted to get the "Extra" should spend at least (2)yrs
operating as a (General) before being allowed to get the TOP license!
If you've ever heard alot of the newer guys on the air their electrical knowledge and operating
practices are rather lacking (even lacking the knowledge
of something as BASIC as "Ohm's Laws"), now that's BAD!!!
At least the vast majority of guys who were licensed before the 1980s really did have to
understand
the electrical theory to pass the exams. Memorization just would not work then as it seems to
now!

Jim/nn6ee
S/N 2406

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hb9ari@bluewin.ch

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

Hello Steve,

I totally agree with you!
I get very severe overloading problems with a Winradio G313/180e and the
only
proposed solution by a group member was to use a smaller antenna!
I'm using an horizontal loop ~96 m perimeter and with this same antenna,
no problem with my K3. As i'm working mainly with JT65A(50W) and PSKnn
(25W),
i get very good results. For SSB, like you for CW, i will be "obliged"
to add some dB to
be able to be heard by a lot of stations perfectly received!( my idea is
not to "break" pile-up!)

73 QRO fr Rudolf, HB9ARI
(66yo ham since 1970 but "younger" since i can play with my K3 #1212!)

Steve Ellington wrote:

> The complaint was not "ridiculous". The original observation was....The K3
> distorts and the FT-817 doesn't under the same conditions.
>
> The poor guy was called stupid, ridiculous, ignorant and told he needs to
> "study" and go back to school.
>
> I think he has a good question and I have yet to see a logical answer.
> Claims that the K3 is "souped up" and exempt from strong signal overload is
> the ridiculous part!
>
> If the K3 distorts on 109DB signals and the FT-817 doesn't then so be it.
> It's a weakness. Just leave it at that. I'm sure the 817 has plenty more
> weaknesses!
>
> Let's not let this list get like the TenTec reflector. Mention something
> negative there and you are immediately put down or soon thrown off.
>
> I've recently subscribed to the IC-7600 Yahoo group just to watch how the
> new radio was doing. So far I've seen two concerns. Some have a dimmer
> screen saver than others and a few have had to do a master reset because of
> audio drop out and it's starting to look like a glitch in some 3rd party rig
> control program causing that. Otherwise, everyone seems satisfied. Of
> course, those guys know that ICOM isn't going to respond to anything that's
> said so maybe they just don't bother.
>
> I'm still enjoying my K3. Things have been rather lopsided lately however. I
> am able to copy cw through the QRN better than the other guy, especially
> when I take advantage of the NR. This gives me er...maybe 6db advantage or
> so. Therefore I've ordered an ALS-600 to help make up the difference. The
> K3's superior receiver is costing me money!
> Steve Ellington
> [hidden email]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Carroll" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby
>
>
>
>> Guy-
>>
>> That's a nice response to a really ridiculous complaint.
>> 73
>> Bob W2WG
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger, K2AV
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:50 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby
>>
>> Two 100w mobiles in the same driveway and expecting linear response from
>> the
>>
>> RX in one while transmitting on the other? Talking about volts across the
>> antenna jack (or any of the connecting cables) here. Who's the EE? S9 is
>> 50 uv. 1 volt = 20 log 1/ .000050 = 86 over S9. Maybe ten volts on the
>> antenna. That's 106 over S9.
>>
>> Hearing some kind of distortion on a 100 over S9 signal is some kind of
>> desperately grave trouble in a K3 trouble worth attention? Really want
>> Wayne spend precious development time figuring that out? Personally I
>> vote
>> for 10 Hz granularity on CW using width and shift.
>>
>> Thought the customary form of communication from thirty feet was audio off
>> the lips. Need 100 watts on 60m to communicate thirty feet? Audio
>> distortion could be the driveway version of RF in the shack. 10 volts
>> externally imposed RF wandering around on your cable of choice is a
>> formula
>> for wierdness no matter where the station.
>>
>> Someone is really lucky they didn't smoke something. And if the K3 did
>> get
>> toasted in this driveway radio demolition derby, that would be the K3's
>> fault too, right? Double fault, K3 was distorting the audio while the
>> front
>>
>> end was being roasted. Bad K3. Bad K3.
>>
>> Some of the radios bandied about earlier were specifically designed in
>> World
>>
>> War II to survive conditions related to an enemy was trying to kill the
>> operator. I'd call that a design standard specifically requested and paid
>> for. Since one tank could be next to another, I'd call that reasonable.
>>
>> Such radios ARE still made and paid for. You really want to go pay for
>> military grade radios, you can get them, at a price far exceeding the MSRP
>> for a K3. Use a kilowatt in your driveway. No problem. Use 10 kw in your
>> driveway like the CB powerfests. No problem.
>>
>> Personally I'd like to keep the features I pay for confined to peacetime,
>> and it does not occur to me as good practice to be transmitting high power
>> in the same driveway with another radio on-band with a tuned antenna.
>> Others may see it differently but I consider the situation in the first
>> paragraph as being careless with a friend's property.
>>
>> We have contest stations with such situations possible, but we use
>> filters,
>> stubs, remote receiving antennas, etc, to make it possible to operate
>> with
>> nowhere near a volt on-band. Sometimes use radios borrowed from friends,
>> and guess who pays to repair a smoked front-end, and guess which
>> embarrassed
>>
>> soul has to explain same to friend.
>>
>> Whether the audio was distorted in a smoke-it episode is really a low
>> grade
>> consideration.
>>
>> 73, Guy.
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Bruce Bowman

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

In reply to this post by ROBERT CARROLL-4

Unrelated to the K3 performance complaint, what happened to the 50 watt
PEP limit for US stations on 60-m? Has that been changed?

Bruce, NM5B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Carroll" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 8:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

> Guy-
>
> That's a nice response to a really ridiculous complaint.
> 73
> Bob W2WG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger,
> K2AV
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:50 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby
>
> Two 100w mobiles in the same driveway and expecting linear response
> from the
>
> RX in one while transmitting on the other? Talking about volts across
> the
> antenna jack (or any of the connecting cables) here. Who's the EE?
> S9 is
> 50 uv. 1 volt = 20 log 1/ .000050 = 86 over S9. Maybe ten volts on
> the
> antenna. That's 106 over S9.
>
> Hearing some kind of distortion on a 100 over S9 signal is some kind
> of
> desperately grave trouble in a K3 trouble worth attention? Really
> want
> Wayne spend precious development time figuring that out? Personally I
> vote
> for 10 Hz granularity on CW using width and shift.
>
> Thought the customary form of communication from thirty feet was audio
> off
> the lips. Need 100 watts on 60m to communicate thirty feet? Audio
> distortion could be the driveway version of RF in the shack. 10 volts
> externally imposed RF wandering around on your cable of choice is a
> formula
> for wierdness no matter where the station.
>
> Someone is really lucky they didn't smoke something. And if the K3
> did get
> toasted in this driveway radio demolition derby, that would be the
> K3's
> fault too, right? Double fault, K3 was distorting the audio while the
> front
>
> end was being roasted. Bad K3. Bad K3.
>
> Some of the radios bandied about earlier were specifically designed in
> World
>
> War II to survive conditions related to an enemy was trying to kill
> the
> operator. I'd call that a design standard specifically requested and
> paid
> for. Since one tank could be next to another, I'd call that
> reasonable.
>
> Such radios ARE still made and paid for. You really want to go pay
> for
> military grade radios, you can get them, at a price far exceeding the
> MSRP
> for a K3. Use a kilowatt in your driveway. No problem. Use 10 kw in
> your
> driveway like the CB powerfests. No problem.
>
> Personally I'd like to keep the features I pay for confined to
> peacetime,
> and it does not occur to me as good practice to be transmitting high
> power
> in the same driveway with another radio on-band with a tuned antenna.
> Others may see it differently but I consider the situation in the
> first
> paragraph as being careless with a friend's property.
>
> We have contest stations with such situations possible, but we use
> filters,
> stubs, remote receiving antennas, etc, to make it possible to operate
> with
> nowhere near a volt on-band. Sometimes use radios borrowed from
> friends,
> and guess who pays to repair a smoked front-end, and guess which
> embarrassed
>
> soul has to explain same to friend.
>
> Whether the audio was distorted in a smoke-it episode is really a low
> grade
> consideration.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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n7ws

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

--- On Wed, 5/6/09, Bruce Bowman, NM5B <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Bruce Bowman, NM5B <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 12:15 AM
> Unrelated to the K3 performance complaint, what happened to
> the 50 watt
> PEP limit for US stations on 60-m?

Nothing.

Has that been changed?

No.

But the rule is 50 ERP, defined as 50 W into a 0 dBd antenna. A mobile whip has a lot lower gain than 0 dBd, in case that's where you were headed.

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AC7AC

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

> Wes is quite right for the USA at least, and to make it easy
> on us the FCC defines a 1/2 wave dipole as a "0 dBd" antenna
> even though most 1/2 wave antennas show some gain over isotropic.

Is that a dipole in free space or a dipole over ground?

A dipole over ground will generally have a peak gain of
8.3 to 8.5 dBi depending on the dipole mounting height and
the angle (elevation) at which the measurement is made.

Given the efficiency of a mobile whip, transmitter output
power could probably be 500 watts before the ERP would
be equivalent to 50 watts to a dipole with 8.5 dBi gain.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron
> D'Eau Claire
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 10:32 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby
>
>
> Wes, N7WS wrote:
>
> But the rule is 50 ERP, defined as 50 W into a 0 dBd antenna.
> A mobile whip has a lot lower gain than 0 dBd, in case
> that's where you were headed.
>
> -------------------------
>
> Wes is quite right for the USA at least, and to make it easy
> on us the FCC defines a 1/2 wave dipole as a "0 dBd" antenna
> even though most 1/2 wave antennas show some gain over isotropic.
>
> It's up to the Amateur to document their antenna's gain if
> not using a dipole. From 97.303(s):
>
> "Licensees using other antennas must maintain in their
> station records either manufacturer data on the antenna gain
> or calculations of the antenna gain."
>
> As Wes points out, that might allow using more than 50 watts
> output into a small whip. It also requires running less than
> 50 watts if using a gain antenna.
>
> Another difference between Hams and some other non-commercial
> radio services is that traditionally most Hams take following
> the rules quite seriously, whether or not any government
> agency is watching us at the time.
>
> When one of our members doesn't, we take it upon ourselves to
> point it out in the spirit of self-regulation.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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n7ws

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

--- On Wed, 5/6/09, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby
> To: "'Ron D'Eau Claire'" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 10:30 AM
> > Wes is quite right for the USA at least, and to make it
> easy
> > on us the FCC defines a 1/2 wave dipole as a "0
> dBd" antenna
> > even though most 1/2 wave antennas show some gain over
> isotropic.
>
> Is that a dipole in free space or a dipole over ground?

The rules seem to be mute on this, but I imagine the idea is a theoretical, free-space dipole.
>
> A dipole over ground will generally have a peak gain of
> 8.3 to 8.5 dBi depending on the dipole mounting height and
> the angle (elevation) at which the measurement is made.
>
> Given the efficiency of a mobile whip, transmitter output
> power could probably be 500 watts before the ERP would
> be equivalent to 50 watts to a dipole with 8.5 dBi gain.

I did a quick EZNEC calculation of an 2.4 M tall whip with 20 ohm ground loss (not unreasonable and likely conservative) and the "gain" is about -11 dBd.

Wes N7WS

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

On Wed, 6 May 2009 09:57:11 -0700 (PDT), Wes Stewart wrote:

>The rules seem to be mute on this, but I imagine the idea is a
>theoretical, free-space dipole.

Since FCC rules are written for a transmitter in the USA, I would
assume they mean a resonant wire dipole suspended above the earth at
heights hams would typically use. Using this interpretation, one
would need to reduce power if running into a Yagi, but could run
considerably more power into a mobile whip.

73,

Jim K9YC

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby [END of thread]

Administrator

In reply to this post by n7ws

Let's let this thread rest too.
Eric

> ntenna. A mobile whip has a lot lower gain than 0 dBd, in case that's where you were headed.
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

WILLIS COOKE

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby [END of thread]

AMEN!

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ

--- On Wed, 5/6/09, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby [END of thread]
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email], "Bruce Bowman, NM5B" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Wednesday, May 6, 2009, 10:54 AM
> Let's let this thread rest too.
> Eric
>
>
> > ntenna. A mobile whip has a lot lower gain than 0
> dBd, in case that's where you were headed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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AC7AC

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Driveway Distortion Demolition Derby

Ron,

The FCC regulations for 60 meter power is referenced to the maximum lobe
of a dipole. Sooo --
That should be "0 dBd" (gain/loss relative to a dipole) rather than "0
dBi" (gain relative to an isotropic radiator).
If my recollection is correct, 0 dBd is 2.15 dB greater than 0 dBi in
the dipole's favored directions (perpendicular to the radiator).
For those not familiar with an isotropic radiator, it is a point
construct in free-space that radiates equally in all directions.

73,
Don W3FPR

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Exactly. As I observed, a dipole typically shows gain over an isotropic
> radiator. The FCC rules don't say other than to assume a dipole has a gain
> of 0 dBi for the purposes of this regulation.
>
> You can find more details and the complete text of the rules here:
>
> http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/faq-60.html#three
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>

AC7AC

dBi dBd correction

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: dBi dBd correction

> If my recollection is correct, 0 dBd is 2.15 dB greater than
> 0 dBi in the dipole's favored directions (perpendicular to the
> radiator).

Only in free space ... when a horizontal dipole is placed
above ground all of the radiated power is concentrated in
one hemisphere. Since both the E and H fields are confined
to the single hemisphere, the resulting "gain" is 6 dB more
than the free space gain or 8.17 dBi (1.25 + 6.02).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron
> D'Eau Claire
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 5:32 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] dBi dBd correction
>
>
> Yeah, I misread the rule. I thought the rule was saying a
> dipole was 0 dbi, not 0 dBd! Didn't make sense to me.
>
> Gus, KB0YH also caught my mistake.
>
> Tnx for un-kinking my brain Guys!
>
> 73,
>
> Ron
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Ron,
>
> The FCC regulations for 60 meter power is referenced to the
> maximum lobe
> of a dipole. Sooo --
> That should be "0 dBd" (gain/loss relative to a dipole)
> rather than "0
> dBi" (gain relative to an isotropic radiator).
> If my recollection is correct, 0 dBd is 2.15 dB greater than 0 dBi in
> the dipole's favored directions (perpendicular to the
> radiator). For those not familiar with an isotropic radiator,
> it is a point
> construct in free-space that radiates equally in all directions.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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