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N6TV recording K4 K3

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DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL

N6TV recording K4 K3

Thanks to TV for doing these.

I really think that while well intentioned, these recordings are "not much"
in terms of comparing the two radios (or even just the K4 alone), unless
you're an operator who is concerned about exactly the conditions
(parameters) which are being used for the recordings.

It's great to hear that "a neighbor" with a 65db over 9 signal can be
"handled" with ease.

I don't think many of us experience that scenario.

RM just asked for a "pile-up" simulation. OK, that's good, but how well
will the recording be an honest representation of what a human with
headphones connected to the radio be? I mean, you can't see what 4K Ulta
HD TV looks like by watching an example on an "older" TV.

I am more concerned about how the radio works under "contest" conditions;
that is, with many big signals on the band (not just one at 65db over 9)
while trying to pull out 4th tier signals in a pileup. For me, that's the
test that matters.

I don't know how many guys on here are serious DXer or are serious
contesters. For me, if the k4 can "pass the test" for the latter group,
then the receiver should be fine for everybody else. Maybe FD will give us
an idea (if recorded as forecast). But still, we are all listening through
a myriad of different devices to hear / observe what we hope to discern
about the K4 receiver.

Finally, while it is encouraging that Elecraft can provide some "hints"
about how to tweak the K4 to get to what TV is looking for, it is a
reminder that this is still a work in progress.

Patience is a virtue.

de Doug KR2Q
I have two K3 radios, original owner, both 3 digit SN, both "kit" form.
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Bob Wilson, N6TV

Re: N6TV recording K4 K3

Hi Doug,

I've been doing CW contests with the K3 for nearly 11 years now. After
using an early release of the K4 firmware, which should only improve over
time, I'm convinced that the K4 far outperforms the K3 in CW pileup
scenarios, mainly due to much improved audio performance. I predict other
Field Testers will come to the same conclusion, but I'll let them speak for
themselves.

Wayne can explain technically why this is the case (the K4 DAC hardware and
CPU is 11 years newer and faster of course), but all I can ask is to listen
closely to the first recording I posted
<https://www.kkn.net/~n6tv/Pileup_Audio_on_K4D_Field_Test_N6TV.mp3>.
Please ignore the RFI artifacts during transmissions, and just listen to
the callers, preferably with headphones and a good PC sound card, not a
phone or tablet. Try to pick out a callsign from the pile. Then rewind
and try to pick out the *other* callsign. I think you'll be able to get a
partial or full callsign almost every time, assuming normal hearing and
"contester ears," even though the stations are quite close to each other.
In a K3, under similar conditions, I would often hear annoying "beat notes"
or "buzzes" (audio distortion) with as few as two callers in the passband.
I have yet to hear that in the K4, though of course I've only used it for 6
hours of contesting.

But I've heard enough to place an order for a 2nd K4, mainly so that I can
do SO2R with two identical radios.

Disclosure: I am not paid or employed by Elecraft, I have never worked
there, and I receive no compensation from the company beyond a small
discount on the price paid for an early Field Test Unit, and the chance to
play and provide direct feedback to the company before the general
release. Fun stuff (and more work than you might think).

73,
Bob, N6TV

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 2:43 PM Douglas Zwiebel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks to TV for doing these.
>
> I really think that while well intentioned, these recordings are "not much"
> in terms of comparing the two radios (or even just the K4 alone), unless
> you're an operator who is concerned about exactly the conditions
> (parameters) which are being used for the recordings.
>
> It's great to hear that "a neighbor" with a 65db over 9 signal can be
> "handled" with ease.
>
> I don't think many of us experience that scenario.
>
> RM just asked for a "pile-up" simulation. OK, that's good, but how well
> will the recording be an honest representation of what a human with
> headphones connected to the radio be? I mean, you can't see what 4K Ulta
> HD TV looks like by watching an example on an "older" TV.
>
> I am more concerned about how the radio works under "contest" conditions;
> that is, with many big signals on the band (not just one at 65db over 9)
> while trying to pull out 4th tier signals in a pileup. For me, that's the
> test that matters.
>
> I don't know how many guys on here are serious DXer or are serious
> contesters. For me, if the k4 can "pass the test" for the latter group,
> then the receiver should be fine for everybody else. Maybe FD will give us
> an idea (if recorded as forecast). But still, we are all listening through
> a myriad of different devices to hear / observe what we hope to discern
> about the K4 receiver.
>
> Finally, while it is encouraging that Elecraft can provide some "hints"
> about how to tweak the K4 to get to what TV is looking for, it is a
> reminder that this is still a work in progress.
>
> Patience is a virtue.
>
> de Doug KR2Q
> I have two K3 radios, original owner, both 3 digit SN, both "kit" form.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Vic Rosenthal

Re: N6TV recording K4 K3

One of the most exciting experiences in my life as a ham was participating in the field test of the K3. I once sat in front of it and turned it on and off more than a hundred times in a row to verify that a firmware fix was successful.

The K4 testers are both dedicated volunteers — and lucky guys.

Victor 4X6GP

> On 26 Jun 2020, at 1:53, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Fun stuff (and more work than you might think).
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wayne burdick

Re: N6TV recording K4 K3

Administrator

There's a lot more than two :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 10:28 PM Vic Rosenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> One of the most exciting experiences in my life as a ham was participating
> in the field test of the K3. I once sat in front of it and turned it on and
> off more than a hundred times in a row to verify that a firmware fix was
> successful.
>
> The K4 testers are both dedicated volunteers — and lucky guys.
>
> Victor 4X6GP
>
> > On 26 Jun 2020, at 1:53, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Fun stuff (and more work than you might think).
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Vic Rosenthal

Re: N6TV recording K4 K3

I should have said “all of them are both dedicated and lucky.”

Victor 4X6GP

> On 26 Jun 2020, at 8:44, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> There's a lot more than two :)
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>> On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 10:28 PM Vic Rosenthal <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> One of the most exciting experiences in my life as a ham was participating in the field test of the K3. I once sat in front of it and turned it on and off more than a hundred times in a row to verify that a firmware fix was successful.
>>
>> The K4 testers are both dedicated volunteers — and lucky guys.
>>
>> Victor 4X6GP
>>
>> > On 26 Jun 2020, at 1:53, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Fun stuff (and more work than you might think).
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]

john@kk9a.com

Re: N6TV recording K4 K3

In reply to this post by DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL

I know that your post said to ignore the transmissions but why is it
so bad? Like many I listened before reading the text and wondering
why I was having problems copying what was sent. Any recordings the I
have made with a K3S using either a Sony DVR or a computer have been
quite clear. Is there RFI on your SSB transmissions?

John KK9A

Bob Wilson, N6TV wrote:

Hi Doug,

I've been doing CW contests with the K3 for nearly 11 years now. After
using an early release of the K4 firmware, which should only improve over
time, I'm convinced that the K4 far outperforms the K3 in CW pileup
scenarios, mainly due to much improved audio performance. I predict other
Field Testers will come to the same conclusion, but I'll let them speak for
themselves.

Wayne can explain technically why this is the case (the K4 DAC hardware and
CPU is 11 years newer and faster of course), but all I can ask is to listen
closely to the first recording I posted
<https://www.kkn.net/~n6tv/Pileup_Audio_on_K4D_Field_Test_N6TV.mp3>.
Please ignore the RFI artifacts during transmissions, and just listen to
the callers, preferably with headphones and a good PC sound card, not a
phone or tablet. Try to pick out a callsign from the pile. Then rewind
and try to pick out the *other* callsign. I think you'll be able to get a
partial or full callsign almost every time, assuming normal hearing and
"contester ears," even though the stations are quite close to each other.
In a K3, under similar conditions, I would often hear annoying "beat notes"
or "buzzes" (audio distortion) with as few as two callers in the passband.
I have yet to hear that in the K4, though of course I've only used it for 6
hours of contesting.

But I've heard enough to place an order for a 2nd K4, mainly so that I can
do SO2R with two identical radios.

Disclosure: I am not paid or employed by Elecraft, I have never worked
there, and I receive no compensation from the company beyond a small
discount on the price paid for an early Field Test Unit, and the chance to
play and provide direct feedback to the company before the general
release. Fun stuff (and more work than you might think).

73,
Bob, N6TV

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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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WILLIE BABER

Re: N6TV recording K4 K3

In reply to this post by Bob Wilson, N6TV

No disclosure required, Bob. Credit where credit is due (to Elecraft); just based on the k3 alone, I believe you, hi.
The only reason I would not purchase k4 is because of k3/k3s. One of mine is 12 years old updated and performs just like k3s. I have three of them for so2r plus in band so2r (lp), requiring a third one.
Try within band so2r on any other pair of radios, lp.
What does this say about k4? The only issue has been waiting for it, similar to kpa1500. They are not going to release it until it is 99.9999 percent there (of course the virus is in the mix too).
Elecraft deserves the credit until they do not deserve it...no sign of that since they got started.
73, will, wj9b
CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and III
http://cwops.org/

On Thursday, June 25, 2020, 4:53:16 PM MDT, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Doug,

I've been doing CW contests with the K3 for nearly 11 years now. After
using an early release of the K4 firmware, which should only improve over
time, I'm convinced that the K4 far outperforms the K3 in CW pileup
scenarios, mainly due to much improved audio performance. I predict other
Field Testers will come to the same conclusion, but I'll let them speak for
themselves.

Wayne can explain technically why this is the case (the K4 DAC hardware and
CPU is 11 years newer and faster of course), but all I can ask is to listen
closely to the first recording I posted
<https://www.kkn.net/~n6tv/Pileup_Audio_on_K4D_Field_Test_N6TV.mp3>.
Please ignore the RFI artifacts during transmissions, and just listen to
the callers, preferably with headphones and a good PC sound card, not a
phone or tablet. Try to pick out a callsign from the pile. Then rewind
and try to pick out the *other* callsign. I think you'll be able to get a
partial or full callsign almost every time, assuming normal hearing and
"contester ears," even though the stations are quite close to each other.
In a K3, under similar conditions, I would often hear annoying "beat notes"
or "buzzes" (audio distortion) with as few as two callers in the passband.
I have yet to hear that in the K4, though of course I've only used it for 6
hours of contesting.

But I've heard enough to place an order for a 2nd K4, mainly so that I can
do SO2R with two identical radios.

Disclosure: I am not paid or employed by Elecraft, I have never worked
there, and I receive no compensation from the company beyond a small
discount on the price paid for an early Field Test Unit, and the chance to
play and provide direct feedback to the company before the general
release. Fun stuff (and more work than you might think).

73,
Bob, N6TV

On Thu, Jun 25, 2020 at 2:43 PM Douglas Zwiebel <[hidden email]> wrote:

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______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Bob Wilson, N6TV

Re: N6TV recording K4 K3

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 6:24 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I know that your post said to ignore the transmissions but why is it
> so bad?

1500W. Shack is right below the antenna. Analog connection to microHAM
MK2R+ sound card (others have commented they had similar problems keeping
RF out of this device).

Like many I listened before reading the text and wondering
> why I was having problems copying what was sent.

Radio was in full QSK mode. The K4 QSK is much faster than the K3, so you
hear much more band noise between elements. Sidetone volume was low. Band
noise was high.

> Any recordings the I have made with a K3S using either a Sony DVR or a
> computer have been
> quite clear. Is there RFI on your SSB transmissions?
>

No RFI into the radio, just into the recording device. Recordings made by
the radio's sound card will have no RFI issues. But SO2R recordings
require an external sound card.

73,
Bob, N6TV
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