Elecraft

New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

Classic

List

Threaded

15 messages Options

Bob Wilson, N6TV

New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

This afternoon I made a 3-1/2 minute audio recording of two stations in QSO
with each other on 40 CW, using both a K3 and K4D, and switching back and
forth. Download here (2.3 MB):

https://www.kkn.net/~n6tv/K3_vs_K4D_CW_Audio_by_N6TV_20200625.mp3

Recorded off rear headphone jack using an MK2R+ USB Sound Card.

In sum, I think the K4D audio sounds quite a bit better, but the "500 Hz"
passband of the K4 seems wider than the K3 (wider skirts?). The AGC attack
time seems slower in the K4 (similar to Icom IC-7851 fast AGC, IMHO). So
the "leading edge" of each dot or dash is louder, which may improve copy a
bit.

The loud station (about 599 + 10 dB) is AC2K in AZ, and the weaker one
(about S-6 to S-7) is NZ0T in MO.

Timestamp What you're hearing
------------ -------------------
00:00 - 00:16 K3
00:19 - 01:00 K4
01:01 - 01:21 K4 with NR engaged and adjusted for best copy ("Level 3")
(Tuned range 0 to 10, the complete range)
01:22 - 01:25 K3
01:26 - 01:58 K3 with NR F1-2 (didn't adjust)
02:00 - 02:35 K4 NR off I think
02:37 - 03:10 K3 NR off
03:13 - 03:20 K4

K3 is S/N 1495 with KSYN3A upgrade but original DSP board and Inrad 500 Hz
8-pole CW crystal filter, with W9AC Audio Mod
<http://web.archive.org/web/20091011115528/http://n1eu.com/K3/k3audiomod.htm>.
(capacitors changed in headphone circuit to increase low end audio response)
K4D Field Test Unit S/N 0008

K3 and K4 were set with identical parameters where possible:

AGC-F, ATT OFF, PRE OFF
RF Gain about 3 O'Clock on K3.
RF Gain 0 (max) on K4
CW mode, 500 Hz bandwidth
Pitch 480 Hz / center of passband IF shift
AGC Attack: 210 (K4 only)
AGC DCY Soft (K3 only)
AGC HLD 0.05 (K3 only)
AGC PLS NOR/ON
AGC SLP 008 (K3)
AGC Slope 15 (K4 -- units are different)
AGC THR 010 (K3)
AGC Threshold 4 (K4 -- units are different)
AGC-F / AGC Decay, Fast:120
AGC-S / AGC Decay, Slow: 20

73,
Bob, N6TV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Macy monkeys

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a K3 nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!

John K7FD

> On Jun 24, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 73,

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

wayne burdick

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

Administrator

In reply to this post by Bob Wilson, N6TV

Bob,

The DSP code isn't quite settled yet. I can help you further optimize the K4 settings, including AGC and NR.

(Note that the NR settings are completely different between the two. We're also working on a much more advanced NR algorithm the doesn't have the "hollow" LMS sound of the current K3 and K4 NR.)

Also, the K4 has better LF audio response, which may account for the wider-sounding passband.

Wayne
N6KR

> On Jun 24, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This afternoon I made a 3-1/2 minute audio recording of two stations in QSO
> with each other on 40 CW, using both a K3 and K4D, and switching back and
> forth. Download here (2.3 MB):
>
> https://www.kkn.net/~n6tv/K3_vs_K4D_CW_Audio_by_N6TV_20200625.mp3
>
> Recorded off rear headphone jack using an MK2R+ USB Sound Card.
>
> In sum, I think the K4D audio sounds quite a bit better, but the "500 Hz"
> passband of the K4 seems wider than the K3 (wider skirts?). The AGC attack
> time seems slower in the K4 (similar to Icom IC-7851 fast AGC, IMHO). So
> the "leading edge" of each dot or dash is louder, which may improve copy a
> bit.
>
> The loud station (about 599 + 10 dB) is AC2K in AZ, and the weaker one
> (about S-6 to S-7) is NZ0T in MO.
>
> Timestamp What you're hearing
> ------------ -------------------
> 00:00 - 00:16 K3
> 00:19 - 01:00 K4
> 01:01 - 01:21 K4 with NR engaged and adjusted for best copy ("Level 3")
> (Tuned range 0 to 10, the complete range)
> 01:22 - 01:25 K3
> 01:26 - 01:58 K3 with NR F1-2 (didn't adjust)
> 02:00 - 02:35 K4 NR off I think
> 02:37 - 03:10 K3 NR off
> 03:13 - 03:20 K4
>
> K3 is S/N 1495 with KSYN3A upgrade but original DSP board and Inrad 500 Hz
> 8-pole CW crystal filter, with W9AC Audio Mod
> <http://web.archive.org/web/20091011115528/http://n1eu.com/K3/k3audiomod.htm>.
> (capacitors changed in headphone circuit to increase low end audio response)
> K4D Field Test Unit S/N 0008
>
> K3 and K4 were set with identical parameters where possible:
>
> AGC-F, ATT OFF, PRE OFF
> RF Gain about 3 O'Clock on K3.
> RF Gain 0 (max) on K4
> CW mode, 500 Hz bandwidth
> Pitch 480 Hz / center of passband IF shift
> AGC Attack: 210 (K4 only)
> AGC DCY Soft (K3 only)
> AGC HLD 0.05 (K3 only)
> AGC PLS NOR/ON
> AGC SLP 008 (K3)
> AGC Slope 15 (K4 -- units are different)
> AGC THR 010 (K3)
> AGC Threshold 4 (K4 -- units are different)
> AGC-F / AGC Decay, Fast:120
> AGC-S / AGC Decay, Slow: 20
>
> 73,
> Bob, N6TV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bob Wilson, N6TV

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

In reply to this post by Macy monkeys

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 8:33 PM Macy monkeys <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a K3
> nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!
>

Please define "smoother".

I prefer the K4 audio. Note that the recording starts with K3 audio.

73,
Bob, N6TV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Macy monkeys

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

When I say smoother it's a very subjective observation. You mentioned AGC differences and that may very well be what I'm hearing.

John K7FD

> On Jun 24, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 8:33 PM Macy monkeys <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a K3 nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!
>
> Please define "smoother".
>
> I prefer the K4 audio. Note that the recording starts with K3 audio.
>
> 73,
> Bob, N6TV

Bob Wilson, N6TV

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

I probably should have backed off the RF gain on the K4 as I had done on
the K3, instead of leaving it wide open on a noisy band like 40m.

73,
Bob, N6TV

On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 8:48 PM Macy monkeys <[hidden email]> wrote:

> When I say smoother it's a very subjective observation. You mentioned AGC
> differences and that may very well be what I'm hearing.
>
> John K7FD
>
> On Jun 24, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 8:33 PM Macy monkeys <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a K3
>> nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!
>>
>
> Please define "smoother".
>
> I prefer the K4 audio. Note that the recording starts with K3 audio.
>
> 73,
> Bob, N6TV
>
>

Peter Chamalian W1RM

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

In reply to this post by Bob Wilson, N6TV

I would like to hear this same A/B comparison but in a pile-up with 4 or
more stations calling. I must confess the hard edge on the K4 "feels" more
like a click to me but that's just my initial reaction. I have pre-ordered
a K4HD.

Pete, W1RM
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Bob Wilson, N6TV
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:24 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

This afternoon I made a 3-1/2 minute audio recording of two stations in QSO
with each other on 40 CW, using both a K3 and K4D, and switching back and
forth. Download here (2.3 MB):

https://www.kkn.net/~n6tv/K3_vs_K4D_CW_Audio_by_N6TV_20200625.mp3

Recorded off rear headphone jack using an MK2R+ USB Sound Card.

In sum, I think the K4D audio sounds quite a bit better, but the "500 Hz"
passband of the K4 seems wider than the K3 (wider skirts?). The AGC attack
time seems slower in the K4 (similar to Icom IC-7851 fast AGC, IMHO). So
the "leading edge" of each dot or dash is louder, which may improve copy a
bit.

The loud station (about 599 + 10 dB) is AC2K in AZ, and the weaker one
(about S-6 to S-7) is NZ0T in MO.

Timestamp What you're hearing
------------ -------------------
00:00 - 00:16 K3
00:19 - 01:00 K4
01:01 - 01:21 K4 with NR engaged and adjusted for best copy ("Level 3")
(Tuned range 0 to 10, the complete range)
01:22 - 01:25 K3
01:26 - 01:58 K3 with NR F1-2 (didn't adjust)
02:00 - 02:35 K4 NR off I think
02:37 - 03:10 K3 NR off
03:13 - 03:20 K4

K3 is S/N 1495 with KSYN3A upgrade but original DSP board and Inrad 500 Hz
8-pole CW crystal filter, with W9AC Audio Mod
<http://web.archive.org/web/20091011115528/http://n1eu.com/K3/k3audiomod.htm
>.
(capacitors changed in headphone circuit to increase low end audio response)
K4D Field Test Unit S/N 0008

K3 and K4 were set with identical parameters where possible:

AGC-F, ATT OFF, PRE OFF
RF Gain about 3 O'Clock on K3.
RF Gain 0 (max) on K4
CW mode, 500 Hz bandwidth
Pitch 480 Hz / center of passband IF shift AGC Attack: 210 (K4 only) AGC
DCY Soft (K3 only) AGC HLD 0.05 (K3 only) AGC PLS NOR/ON AGC SLP 008 (K3)
AGC Slope 15 (K4 -- units are different) AGC THR 010 (K3) AGC Threshold 4
(K4 -- units are different) AGC-F / AGC Decay, Fast:120 AGC-S / AGC Decay,
Slow: 20

73,
Bob, N6TV
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

kt5te

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

In reply to this post by Macy monkeys

I would have to say both sound better then my KX3 speaker. ;-) And I'm waiting for my
K4D! BTW, the recording doesn't sound as good and my K2. :-) So we'll see if the K4 can
hold up against the K2. :-)
--
73, William KT5TE

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:32:51 PM CDT Macy monkeys wrote:

> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a K3 nor
> have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!
>
> John K7FD
>
> > On Jun 24, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 73,
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

WILLIE BABER

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

I like k2 audio too but it seems that some of the difference compared to k3 is the lower I-F gain in k2. So I reduced I-F gain in k3.
K2 audio still wins but nothing I have used here slices through cw pileups like k3, or hears a weak signal better.
The main action I took to enjoy k3 audio was to reduce the CW offset to 500 hz, quite by accident, which is much lower than what sounds good to me on other radios, usually around 600 hz to 700 hz.
My interest in k4 is to see what Elecraft can do that is better, based on having proven (at least to me) that k3 is easily #1 compared to all other radios I have used in cw contests (in selectivity, weak signal, and qsk when using pin-diode switched amps).
Of course some other radios come close, the second best I have used is Tentec Orion.
73, Will, wj9b

CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and III
http://cwops.org/

On Thursday, June 25, 2020, 6:32:28 AM MDT, <[hidden email]> wrote:

I would have to say both sound better then my KX3 speaker. ;-) And I'm waiting for my
K4D! BTW, the recording doesn't sound as good and my K2. :-) So we'll see if the K4 can
hold up against the K2. :-)
--
73, William KT5TE

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:32:51 PM CDT Macy monkeys wrote:

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Macy monkeys

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

In reply to this post by Bob Wilson, N6TV

Thanks for doing these recordings, Bob.

John K7FD

> On Jun 24, 2020, at 10:00 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I probably should have backed off the RF gain on the K4 as I had done on
> the K3, instead of leaving it wide open on a noisy band like 40m.
>
> 73,
> Bob, N6TV
>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020, 8:48 PM Macy monkeys <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> When I say smoother it's a very subjective observation. You mentioned AGC
>> differences and that may very well be what I'm hearing.
>>
>> John K7FD
>>
>> On Jun 24, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2020 at 8:33 PM Macy monkeys <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a K3
>>> nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!
>>
>> Please define "smoother".
>>
>> I prefer the K4 audio. Note that the recording starts with K3 audio.
>>
>> 73,
>> Bob, N6TV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

In reply to this post by kt5te

This is sorta like demonstrating a 4K TV screen using a 1080 video.

Too many detracting variables, recorder, internet, D to A, your audio
system, etc.

Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

I would have to say both sound better then my KX3 speaker. ;-) And I'm
waiting for my
K4D! BTW, the recording doesn't sound as good and my K2. :-) So we'll
see if the K4 can
hold up against the K2. :-)
--
73, William KT5TE

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:32:51 PM CDT Macy monkeys wrote:

> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a
> K3 nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!
>
> John K7FD
>
> > On Jun 24, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > 73,
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Edward H Russell

FW: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

I finally got a chance to listen to the recordings. The K4 sounded very
bottom heavy with band noise. I did a quick analysis on the spectrum
analyzer and confirmed that the K3 envelope looks ok, but something is not
right about the K4. The K3 is centered on about 450hz and is symmetrical,
with steep skirts on both low and high end. The K4 appears to be set at the
same center but it blossoms out on the lows, accounting for the low
frequency band noise evident in the recording. The K4 filter high end is
also soft.

Spectrogram available here:

http://www.qrv.com/download/K3K4CWspectrum.png

The K3 is light blue and the K4 is green (the red and blue are unused
channels).

It looks like the DSP filter on the K4 may have a configuration problem.

Tks,

73 Ed w2rf

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]> > On Behalf Of Charlie T
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:21 PM
To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

This is sorta like demonstrating a 4K TV screen using a 1080 video.

Too many detracting variables, recorder, internet, D to A, your audio
system, etc.

Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----

From: <mailto:[hidden email]>
[hidden email] < <mailto:[hidden email]>
[hidden email]> On Behalf Of
<mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:32 AM

To: <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

I would have to say both sound better then my KX3 speaker. ;-) And I'm
waiting for my

K4D! BTW, the recording doesn't sound as good and my K2. :-) So we'll

see if the K4 can

hold up against the K2. :-)

--

73, William KT5TE

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:32:51 PM CDT Macy monkeys wrote:

> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a

> K3 nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!

>

> John K7FD

>

> > On Jun 24, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV < <mailto:[hidden email]>
[hidden email]> wrote:

> >

> > 73,

>

> ______________________________________________________________

> Elecraft mailing list

> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

> Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]

>

> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net Please help
support this email

> list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to

> <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________

Elecraft mailing list

Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net

Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message

delivered to <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________

Elecraft mailing list

Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net

Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Message delivered to <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

NJ8M

Re: FW: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

Armchair analysis, not having the radio in front of the equipment, taking a
compressed audio file and staking a claim...this is sadly funny. Go to
Eham.net and look at the same thing by people who believe themselves an
authority on smoke signals.

I'll wait for my 2 K4's to arrive. I know I will be quite happy. The radios
are feature rich and will take a learning curve. What makes a good/great
radio is not just what the equipment on the bench reads out or measures.
There is ergonomics, ease of operation, asthetic beauty, technical
electronic construction and design that make the total package. For
instance, Flex radios are plagued with problems in software, drivers,
memory cards, multiple error messages, failure to boot taking 45 minutes to
get the OS working properly, and besides, they are one of the most ugly
radios on the market. People still buy the 6600M and use it for contesting
even though it does not score in the top ten on Sherwood tests. Contests
are still won every day with radios that are 30 years old and with new tech
that are plagued with problems. If you want a stereo, then go buy a stereo
and leave the audio analysis to the audiophiles, besides I doubt your ears
are that good at any age. If one was an orchestra Maestro, then maybe this
might be true but for the average ham, these clips sound great. There are
known problems with the audio recordings like RF getting into the MK2R+.
Now there is an area that Elecraft could surely work on and make their own
seamless interface to the elecraft line for SO2R operation.

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 5:01 AM E.H. Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I finally got a chance to listen to the recordings. The K4 sounded very
> bottom heavy with band noise. I did a quick analysis on the spectrum
> analyzer and confirmed that the K3 envelope looks ok, but something is not
> right about the K4. The K3 is centered on about 450hz and is symmetrical,
> with steep skirts on both low and high end. The K4 appears to be set at the
> same center but it blossoms out on the lows, accounting for the low
> frequency band noise evident in the recording. The K4 filter high end is
> also soft.
>
>
>
> Spectrogram available here:
>
> http://www.qrv.com/download/K3K4CWspectrum.png
>
> The K3 is light blue and the K4 is green (the red and blue are unused
> channels).
>
>
>
> It looks like the DSP filter on the K4 may have a configuration problem.
>
>
>
> Tks,
>
> 73 Ed w2rf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]> <
> [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]> > On Behalf Of Charlie T
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:21 PM
> To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D
>
>
>
> This is sorta like demonstrating a 4K TV screen using a 1080 video.
>
>
>
> Too many detracting variables, recorder, internet, D to A, your audio
> system, etc.
>
>
>
> Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: <mailto:[hidden email]>
> [hidden email] < <mailto:
> [hidden email]>
> [hidden email]> On Behalf Of
> <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:32 AM
>
> To: <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]
>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D
>
>
>
> I would have to say both sound better then my KX3 speaker. ;-) And I'm
> waiting for my
>
> K4D! BTW, the recording doesn't sound as good and my K2. :-) So we'll
>
> see if the K4 can
>
> hold up against the K2. :-)
>
> --
>
> 73, William KT5TE
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:32:51 PM CDT Macy monkeys wrote:
>
> > Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a
>
> > K3 nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!
>
> >
>
> > John K7FD
>
> >
>
> > > On Jun 24, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV < <mailto:[hidden email]>
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > 73,
>
> >
>
> > ______________________________________________________________
>
> > Elecraft mailing list
>
> > Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> > Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>
> > Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net Please
> help
> support this email
>
> > list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to
>
> > <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Elecraft mailing list
>
> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>
> Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]
>
>
>
> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net
>
> Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
>
> delivered to <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Elecraft mailing list
>
> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>
> Post: <mailto:[hidden email]> mailto:[hidden email]
>
>
>
> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net
>
> Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> Message delivered to <mailto:[hidden email]> [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Edward H Russell

Re: FW: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

Hi Morgan,

The recorded audio stream accurately represents the output of the radio. The spectral analysis is also accurate. There is no claim asserted however, only to point out that in this particular test something does not seem to be right with the K4 filter. Others had reported it with comments such as a bassy sound, etc. and the analysis I provided merely quantifies that. I have professional experience using spectral analysis techniques and am positive that the analogy with smoke signal analysis is false. I know we all are expecting a great radio, and also that hiccups such is this in early tests are common. However it is essential that this sort of situation be clearly identified and documented during test to make sure it doesn’t leak out into production.

I also have a K4D on order and am confident that the problem is either accidental or will be cured by delivery!

Cheers,

Ed / w2rf

From: Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:24 AM
To: E.H. Russell <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FW: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

Armchair analysis, not having the radio in front of the equipment, taking a compressed audio file and staking a claim...this is sadly funny. Go to Eham.net and look at the same thing by people who believe themselves an authority on smoke signals.

I'll wait for my 2 K4's to arrive. I know I will be quite happy. The radios are feature rich and will take a learning curve. What makes a good/great radio is not just what the equipment on the bench reads out or measures. There is ergonomics, ease of operation, asthetic beauty, technical electronic construction and design that make the total package. For instance, Flex radios are plagued with problems in software, drivers, memory cards, multiple error messages, failure to boot taking 45 minutes to get the OS working properly, and besides, they are one of the most ugly radios on the market. People still buy the 6600M and use it for contesting even though it does not score in the top ten on Sherwood tests. Contests are still won every day with radios that are 30 years old and with new tech that are plagued with problems. If you want a stereo, then go buy a stereo and leave the audio analysis to the audiophiles, besides I doubt your ears are that good at any age. If one was an orchestra Maestro, then maybe this might be true but for the average ham, these clips sound great. There are known problems with the audio recordings like RF getting into the MK2R+. Now there is an area that Elecraft could surely work on and make their own seamless interface to the elecraft line for SO2R operation.

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 5:01 AM E.H. Russell <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > wrote:

I finally got a chance to listen to the recordings. The K4 sounded very
bottom heavy with band noise. I did a quick analysis on the spectrum
analyzer and confirmed that the K3 envelope looks ok, but something is not
right about the K4. The K3 is centered on about 450hz and is symmetrical,
with steep skirts on both low and high end. The K4 appears to be set at the
same center but it blossoms out on the lows, accounting for the low
frequency band noise evident in the recording. The K4 filter high end is
also soft.

Spectrogram available here:

http://www.qrv.com/download/K3K4CWspectrum.png

The K3 is light blue and the K4 is green (the red and blue are unused
channels).

It looks like the DSP filter on the K4 may have a configuration problem.

Tks,

73 Ed w2rf

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
<mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
<mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > On Behalf Of Charlie T
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:21 PM
To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

This is sorta like demonstrating a 4K TV screen using a 1080 video.

Too many detracting variables, recorder, internet, D to A, your audio
system, etc.

Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----

From: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> < <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > On Behalf Of
<mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:32 AM

To: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

I would have to say both sound better then my KX3 speaker. ;-) And I'm
waiting for my

K4D! BTW, the recording doesn't sound as good and my K2. :-) So we'll

see if the K4 can

hold up against the K2. :-)

--

73, William KT5TE

On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:32:51 PM CDT Macy monkeys wrote:

> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a

> K3 nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!

>

> John K7FD

>

> > On Jun 24, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV < <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > wrote:

> >

> > 73,

>

> ______________________________________________________________

> Elecraft mailing list

> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

> Post: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

>

> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net Please help
support this email

> list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to

> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

______________________________________________________________

Elecraft mailing list

Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

Post: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net

Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message

delivered to <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

______________________________________________________________

Elecraft mailing list

Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm

Post: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net

Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Message delivered to <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

wayne burdick

Re: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D

Administrator

The radio was using an interim firmware release with configuration work-arounds that were less than ideal. Also, the recording was done with external equipment adding its own artifacts and coloration.

The setup wasn't vetted before the recording was posted. It most certainly will be next time :)

Wayne
N6KR

> On Jun 27, 2020, at 7:17 AM, E.H. Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Morgan,
>
>
>
> The recorded audio stream accurately represents the output of the radio. The spectral analysis is also accurate. There is no claim asserted however, only to point out that in this particular test something does not seem to be right with the K4 filter. Others had reported it with comments such as a bassy sound, etc. and the analysis I provided merely quantifies that. I have professional experience using spectral analysis techniques and am positive that the analogy with smoke signal analysis is false. I know we all are expecting a great radio, and also that hiccups such is this in early tests are common. However it is essential that this sort of situation be clearly identified and documented during test to make sure it doesn’t leak out into production.
>
>
>
> I also have a K4D on order and am confident that the problem is either accidental or will be cured by delivery!
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ed / w2rf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 9:24 AM
> To: E.H. Russell <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FW: New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D
>
>
>
> Armchair analysis, not having the radio in front of the equipment, taking a compressed audio file and staking a claim...this is sadly funny. Go to Eham.net and look at the same thing by people who believe themselves an authority on smoke signals.
>
>
>
> I'll wait for my 2 K4's to arrive. I know I will be quite happy. The radios are feature rich and will take a learning curve. What makes a good/great radio is not just what the equipment on the bench reads out or measures. There is ergonomics, ease of operation, asthetic beauty, technical electronic construction and design that make the total package. For instance, Flex radios are plagued with problems in software, drivers, memory cards, multiple error messages, failure to boot taking 45 minutes to get the OS working properly, and besides, they are one of the most ugly radios on the market. People still buy the 6600M and use it for contesting even though it does not score in the top ten on Sherwood tests. Contests are still won every day with radios that are 30 years old and with new tech that are plagued with problems. If you want a stereo, then go buy a stereo and leave the audio analysis to the audiophiles, besides I doubt your ears are that good at any age. If one was an orchestra Maestro, then maybe this might be true but for the average ham, these clips sound great. There are known problems with the audio recordings like RF getting into the MK2R+. Now there is an area that Elecraft could surely work on and make their own seamless interface to the elecraft line for SO2R operation.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 5:01 AM E.H. Russell <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > wrote:
>
> I finally got a chance to listen to the recordings. The K4 sounded very
> bottom heavy with band noise. I did a quick analysis on the spectrum
> analyzer and confirmed that the K3 envelope looks ok, but something is not
> right about the K4. The K3 is centered on about 450hz and is symmetrical,
> with steep skirts on both low and high end. The K4 appears to be set at the
> same center but it blossoms out on the lows, accounting for the low
> frequency band noise evident in the recording. The K4 filter high end is
> also soft.
>
>
>
> Spectrogram available here:
>
> http://www.qrv.com/download/K3K4CWspectrum.png
>
> The K3 is light blue and the K4 is green (the red and blue are unused
> channels).
>
>
>
> It looks like the DSP filter on the K4 may have a configuration problem.
>
>
>
> Tks,
>
> 73 Ed w2rf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > On Behalf Of Charlie T
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 6:21 PM
> To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D
>
>
>
> This is sorta like demonstrating a 4K TV screen using a 1080 video.
>
>
>
> Too many detracting variables, recorder, internet, D to A, your audio
> system, etc.
>
>
>
> Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> < <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > On Behalf Of
> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 8:32 AM
>
> To: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New CW audio recording: K3 vs. K4D
>
>
>
> I would have to say both sound better then my KX3 speaker. ;-) And I'm
> waiting for my
>
> K4D! BTW, the recording doesn't sound as good and my K2. :-) So we'll
>
> see if the K4 can
>
> hold up against the K2. :-)
>
> --
>
> 73, William KT5TE
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, June 24, 2020 10:32:51 PM CDT Macy monkeys wrote:
>
>> Overall, the K3 sounded a little smoother to my ears. I do not own a
>
>> K3 nor have I ordered a K4. But I would be happy with either one!
>
>>
>
>> John K7FD
>
>>
>
>>> On Jun 24, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Bob Wilson, N6TV < <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > wrote:
>
>>>
>
>>> 73,
>
>>
>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>
>> Elecraft mailing list
>
>> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
>> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>
>> Post: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>>
>
>> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net Please help
> support this email
>
>> list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to
>
>> <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Elecraft mailing list
>
> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>
> Post: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net
>
> Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
>
> delivered to <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Elecraft mailing list
>
> Home: <http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>
> Post: <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>
> This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net> http://www.qsl.net
>
> Please help support this email list: <http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> Message delivered to <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]