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New K3 Syn

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JohnDePrimo

New K3 Syn

Don, all,
Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense of a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create and make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the decision to buy.
Thanks & 73,
John K1JD
Santa Fe, NM

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Chester Alderman

Re: New K3 Syn

Hi John,

I can't do that just yet but I will when I get my new K3. Improved full QSK
and better close in signal rejection during contest are also my primary
interest, so it will be interesting to finally get the new rig and test for
those issues.

I got my original K3 in 2010 and decided since I sure would like to have the
new synthesizers and since I had never installed any of the Elecraft
upgrades/updates, I would sell the old one and buy a new one. The actual
cost output for a new K3, with everything updated, was very reasonable. Even
though my credit card was charged the day after I placed my order, I did not
hear anything from Elecraft, so I sent them an email yesterday for status
update. It turned out that there is a 'delay' due to some small part out of
stock, but my new "K4" should be shipped next week. [I say "K4" because any
other manufacturer would have come out with a 'new' radio and we are
fortunate to get this 'serious' upgrade as such!] So after I can do some
test, I will make an audio recording and send it to you and Vidi.

73,
Tom - W4BQF

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Johnk1jd
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 9:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] New K3 Syn

Don, all,
Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already
excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved
QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense of
a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create and
make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW
circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the
decision to buy.
Thanks & 73,
John K1JD
Santa Fe, NM

Sent from my iPad
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drewko

Re: New K3 Syn

In reply to this post by JohnDePrimo

Not a bad idea... It would be nice to hear before and after
recordings.

Also, recordings with the RF gain at max and sidetone volume at zero
while the rig is being keyed, in presence of other signals and alone
in the background noise. That should provide a good comparison of
clicks and pops without distraction.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:19:42 -0700, you wrote:

>Don, all,
>Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense of a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create and make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the decision to buy.
>Thanks & 73,
>John K1JD
>Santa Fe, NM
>

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Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: New K3 Syn

One thing that people need to remember when making a purchase decision on
K3 upgrades, is that in the future, wanting to sell a K3, one of the first
questions will be whether the rig has the newer synthesizer(s). For me,
without, that would be a $300 derating for single RX and a $600 derating
for the old boards. Cost plus inconvenience to bring it up to spec.

It's like selling a K3 that has only a few of the mods, and particularly
not having the new audio board. Someone buys it and immediately sends it
back to the factory to be brought up to date, if they buy it.

And then of course there are the "unintended" positive side benefits of an
upgrade, like the much clearer audio when the AGC significant digit problem
was fixed. Don't know what they are this time around, but I'm sure there
are some.

Beyond that, there is the profit angle, where a small percentage of total
rig value is invested to bring it up to date, avoiding a new rig purchase
to obtain same. Your purchase of upgrade materials rewards that business
strategy and helps insure they keep doing business that way.

If that were not enough, it maintains the reputation of a rig as not
becoming obsolete, vastly improving its resale value.

Seven year old radio, as modified, still at the top of the heap. Just how
good is that.

And still more, that means that any new Elecraft rig will build on top of
proven CURRENT firmware and hardware knowledge, there because there were
customer purchases to support it. The KX3 is a very clear example of that.

Yeah it's certainly YOUR pocketbook and not mine, but hanging back is short
term strategy and what I'm talking about is long term strategy. Don't lose
sight of the long term. Support your radio manufacturer.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:17 AM, drewko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not a bad idea... It would be nice to hear before and after
> recordings.
>
> Also, recordings with the RF gain at max and sidetone volume at zero
> while the rig is being keyed, in presence of other signals and alone
> in the background noise. That should provide a good comparison of
> clicks and pops without distraction.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
>
> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:19:42 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Don, all,
> >Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already
> excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved
> QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense
> of a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create and
> make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW
> circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the
> decision to buy.
> >Thanks & 73,
> >John K1JD
> >Santa Fe, NM
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: New K3 Syn

Good point Guy.

That's why a "Round Emblem" Collins S-Line is worth much more than the
"Winged Emblem" version, even so quite a few say a particular early *
receiver is actually better than their newer ones.

"Does it have the latest mods?" is a very pertinent question when offering a
K3 for sale.

Every time the "Big-Three" comes out with a new radio, the street value of
old one drops 10% to 30%.

I agree with Elecraft's philosophy. I have an early K3 that is identical in
performance with S/N 9XXX.

73, Charlie k3ICH

* Winged 75S-3 vs. a Round 75S-3B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" <[hidden email]>
To: "drewko" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New K3 Syn

> One thing that people need to remember when making a purchase decision on
> K3 upgrades, is that in the future, wanting to sell a K3, one of the first
> questions will be whether the rig has the newer synthesizer(s). For me,
> without, that would be a $300 derating for single RX and a $600 derating
> for the old boards. Cost plus inconvenience to bring it up to spec.
>
> It's like selling a K3 that has only a few of the mods, and particularly
> not having the new audio board. Someone buys it and immediately sends it
> back to the factory to be brought up to date, if they buy it.
>
> And then of course there are the "unintended" positive side benefits of an
> upgrade, like the much clearer audio when the AGC significant digit
> problem
> was fixed. Don't know what they are this time around, but I'm sure there
> are some.
>
> Beyond that, there is the profit angle, where a small percentage of total
> rig value is invested to bring it up to date, avoiding a new rig purchase
> to obtain same. Your purchase of upgrade materials rewards that business
> strategy and helps insure they keep doing business that way.
>
> If that were not enough, it maintains the reputation of a rig as not
> becoming obsolete, vastly improving its resale value.
>
> Seven year old radio, as modified, still at the top of the heap. Just how
> good is that.
>
> And still more, that means that any new Elecraft rig will build on top of
> proven CURRENT firmware and hardware knowledge, there because there were
> customer purchases to support it. The KX3 is a very clear example of that.
>
> Yeah it's certainly YOUR pocketbook and not mine, but hanging back is
> short
> term strategy and what I'm talking about is long term strategy. Don't lose
> sight of the long term. Support your radio manufacturer.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:17 AM, drewko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Not a bad idea... It would be nice to hear before and after
>> recordings.
>>
>> Also, recordings with the RF gain at max and sidetone volume at zero
>> while the rig is being keyed, in presence of other signals and alone
>> in the background noise. That should provide a good comparison of
>> clicks and pops without distraction.
>>
>> 73,
>> Drew
>> AF2Z
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:19:42 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> >Don, all,
>> >Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already
>> excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved
>> QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense
>> of a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create
>> and
>> make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW
>> circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the
>> decision to buy.
>> >Thanks & 73,
>> >John K1JD
>> >Santa Fe, NM
>> >
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Chester Alderman

Re: New K3 Syn

Hmmmm...I don't quite agree with Guy's assessment of the upgrades.

IMO, the upgrade synthesizer is supposed to be an improvement if 1) you need
better full CW QSK, and 2) if you need to copy very weak close-in CW signals
in the presence of S9+ signals and/or if you do a lot of contesting. The
basic K3 handles both of these criteria pretty well, comparatively speaking
(look at the Sherwood data), and the quoted '$600' difference is strictly a
user's option. I just sold my five year old K3 with the understanding that I
was selling the buyer a darned good radio (that did not have the new
upgrades) and I don't think the buyer was short-changed at all.
Just my opinion of course!

73,
Tom - W4BQF

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Charlie T, K3ICH
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 8:31 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New K3 Syn

Good point Guy.

That's why a "Round Emblem" Collins S-Line is worth much more than the
"Winged Emblem" version, even so quite a few say a particular early *
receiver is actually better than their newer ones.

"Does it have the latest mods?" is a very pertinent question when offering a
K3 for sale.

Every time the "Big-Three" comes out with a new radio, the street value of
old one drops 10% to 30%.

I agree with Elecraft's philosophy. I have an early K3 that is identical in
performance with S/N 9XXX.

73, Charlie k3ICH

* Winged 75S-3 vs. a Round 75S-3B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" <[hidden email]>
To: "drewko" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New K3 Syn

David Gilbert

Re: New K3 Syn

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

Please explain the advantage of spending all that money now instead of
potentially spending it several years from now when you might ... might
... want to sell the rig. Buying the new synths now because you want
the better performance makes perfect sense ... buying them now purely to
avoid buying them later makes no sense to me at all.

Dave AB7E

On 3/2/2015 1:31 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> One thing that people need to remember when making a purchase decision on
> K3 upgrades, is that in the future, wanting to sell a K3, one of the first
> questions will be whether the rig has the newer synthesizer(s). For me,
> without, that would be a $300 derating for single RX and a $600 derating
> for the old boards. Cost plus inconvenience to bring it up to spec.
>
> It's like selling a K3 that has only a few of the mods, and particularly
> not having the new audio board. Someone buys it and immediately sends it
> back to the factory to be brought up to date, if they buy it.
>
> And then of course there are the "unintended" positive side benefits of an
> upgrade, like the much clearer audio when the AGC significant digit problem
> was fixed. Don't know what they are this time around, but I'm sure there
> are some.
>
> Beyond that, there is the profit angle, where a small percentage of total
> rig value is invested to bring it up to date, avoiding a new rig purchase
> to obtain same. Your purchase of upgrade materials rewards that business
> strategy and helps insure they keep doing business that way.
>
> If that were not enough, it maintains the reputation of a rig as not
> becoming obsolete, vastly improving its resale value.
>
> Seven year old radio, as modified, still at the top of the heap. Just how
> good is that.
>
> And still more, that means that any new Elecraft rig will build on top of
> proven CURRENT firmware and hardware knowledge, there because there were
> customer purchases to support it. The KX3 is a very clear example of that.
>
> Yeah it's certainly YOUR pocketbook and not mine, but hanging back is short
> term strategy and what I'm talking about is long term strategy. Don't lose
> sight of the long term. Support your radio manufacturer.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:17 AM, drewko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Not a bad idea... It would be nice to hear before and after
>> recordings.
>>
>> Also, recordings with the RF gain at max and sidetone volume at zero
>> while the rig is being keyed, in presence of other signals and alone
>> in the background noise. That should provide a good comparison of
>> clicks and pops without distraction.
>>
>> 73,
>> Drew
>> AF2Z
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:19:42 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>> Don, all,
>>> Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already
>> excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved
>> QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense
>> of a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create and
>> make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW
>> circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the
>> decision to buy.
>>> Thanks & 73,
>>> John K1JD
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Barry Baines

Why Upgrade (Was: Re: New K3 Syn)

Dave:

You raise an interesting question, and the answer depends upon the underlying premise that drives your decisions.

If you presume that indeed you plan to sell the rig in a couple of years and that best way to sell a rig in the future is to have it "current" when you place it on the market, then presumably that means purchasing upgrades prior to placing it on the market. The question then becomes "buy the upgrade now or buy later?" The answer depends upon how you view the benefits of the upgrades:

1. Buy it now before potential prices increases later for those upgrades. There is no guarantee that today's prices will remain unchanged (labor, materials and other costs of production do change) so this is an assumption that the likelihood is that prices will go probably go up.

2. Recognize that the future value of the radio may be enhanced by adding the upgrade, but the "net value" of that rig will likely not increase as much as the cost of the upgrade. "Depreciation" coupled with the recognition that there is likely no warranty carry forward if the upgrade is installed by the prior seller means that the value to the buyer is less than what you paid for it. In other words, you'll get more for the rig, but the numbers may not offset the cost of the upgrade itself.

3. If you're going to install the upgrade at some point in the future anyway and you can afford to pay for it now, why not do the upgrade sooner rather than later? That way you'll also gain the benefit of the improvement for the remaining time that you own that rig, offsetting to some degree the "cost" of that upgrade through the enjoyment of those enhancements. This rationale is similar to your comment about making the purchase because you want the benefit of the upgrade. I'm adding to that sentiment by suggesting that if the purchase will definitely be made at some point, it is better to do so sooner rather than later so that you can benefit from it as well.

4. After using the enhancements it may be conceivable that the capabilities of the "new rig" may preclude the desire to sell it, thus avoiding the pain and suffering of placing it on the market in the first place and then going through the process of deciding what to get next.

5. Even if we decide not to do the upgrades and later sell the rig, the relative value of the "base case" is likely enhanced versus other products because the buyer has the option to add the enhancements. The rig is not locked into only those capabilities that existed at the time of production.

The same approach should be considered in other major transactions. For example, if you know that you'l be selling your home in 3-5 years and recognize that some enhancements are needed to improve the marketability, why not do the upgrades sooner rather than just before placing the home on the market? That way you'll have the opportunity to enjoy the enhancements plus costs never go down, they always go up. Lock-in those costs earlier and not pay more later. Heck, you may decide after doing the enhancements to not sell after all, which is probably cheaper than going through the pain and suffering of selling one home, buying another, and then getting the new home setup the way you want it.

Of course such decisions in amateur radio or other aspects of life are not always based on "logic" or economics. And each person has a different interpretation of cost vs. benefit, thus driving different decisions. I think we can all agree, however, that having Elecraft provide improvements to their products through both firmware and hardware updates is generally a good thing and that the marginal cost of these improvements has been less than purchasing a brand new comparable rig from Elecraft or someone else's product.

FWIW and Enjoy the Ride,

Barry Baines, WD4ASW
Westborough, MA

> On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:16 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Please explain the advantage of spending all that money now instead of potentially spending it several years from now when you might ... might ... want to sell the rig. Buying the new synths now because you want the better performance makes perfect sense ... buying them now purely to avoid buying them later makes no sense to me at all.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
> On 3/2/2015 1:31 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>> One thing that people need to remember when making a purchase decision on
>> K3 upgrades, is that in the future, wanting to sell a K3, one of the first
>> questions will be whether the rig has the newer synthesizer(s). For me,
>> without, that would be a $300 derating for single RX and a $600 derating
>> for the old boards. Cost plus inconvenience to bring it up to spec.
>>
>> It's like selling a K3 that has only a few of the mods, and particularly
>> not having the new audio board. Someone buys it and immediately sends it
>> back to the factory to be brought up to date, if they buy it.
>>
>> And then of course there are the "unintended" positive side benefits of an
>> upgrade, like the much clearer audio when the AGC significant digit problem
>> was fixed. Don't know what they are this time around, but I'm sure there
>> are some.
>>
>> Beyond that, there is the profit angle, where a small percentage of total
>> rig value is invested to bring it up to date, avoiding a new rig purchase
>> to obtain same. Your purchase of upgrade materials rewards that business
>> strategy and helps insure they keep doing business that way.
>>
>> If that were not enough, it maintains the reputation of a rig as not
>> becoming obsolete, vastly improving its resale value.
>>
>> Seven year old radio, as modified, still at the top of the heap. Just how
>> good is that.
>>
>> And still more, that means that any new Elecraft rig will build on top of
>> proven CURRENT firmware and hardware knowledge, there because there were
>> customer purchases to support it. The KX3 is a very clear example of that.
>>
>> Yeah it's certainly YOUR pocketbook and not mine, but hanging back is short
>> term strategy and what I'm talking about is long term strategy. Don't lose
>> sight of the long term. Support your radio manufacturer.
>>
>> 73, Guy K2AV
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:17 AM, drewko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Not a bad idea... It would be nice to hear before and after
>>> recordings.
>>>
>>> Also, recordings with the RF gain at max and sidetone volume at zero
>>> while the rig is being keyed, in presence of other signals and alone
>>> in the background noise. That should provide a good comparison of
>>> clicks and pops without distraction.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Drew
>>> AF2Z
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:19:42 -0700, you wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don, all,
>>>> Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already
>>> excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved
>>> QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense
>>> of a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create and
>>> make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW
>>> circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the
>>> decision to buy.
>>>> Thanks & 73,
>>>> John K1JD
>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

John Fritze

Re: New K3 Syn

In reply to this post by JohnDePrimo

I installed the new K3 synthesizers in my rig today. Install went very
easy even without a cat (or in my case a dog) on my lap. I am pretty much
a SSB and Digi operator. I did tune around a bit looking for a couple of
SSB signals that were right on top of each other to see if I could hear any
difference from before. My impression is that my K3 is quieter over all
(almost urban environment with a lot of RFI), and I felt that I could more
easily copy one signal over another closely spaced signal. I didn't seem
to hear that rumble from another station even though it was only a few KCs
away. Does this make sense? I will give the receivers a good work out
this weekend but my first impression is very favorable.

--
John Fritze Jr
K2QY
[hidden email]
ACACES president 2014
Albany County RACES Radio Officer
ARES ENY DEC Northern District
Hudson Div. Asst. Director
Twitter: @k2qy
401 261 4996 (cell)
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Doug Turnbull

Re: New K3 Syn

In reply to this post by Chester Alderman

Dear OMs,
I will be upgrading my K3s but it seems that people often do not pay the
full value of a used radio loaded with options. So adding options and or
upgrades is hardly going to enhance the radio value by more than the cost of
the option or upgrade.

It is probably the case that a basic 100 Watt K3 is the easiest K3 for
which to find a purchaser and thus maybe the radio which recoups the
greatest percentage of the purchase price. Not having the SYN board would
not significantly affect my decision to purchase. It could always be
added later.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Chester Alderman
Sent: 02 March 2015 14:40
To: 'Charlie T, K3ICH'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New K3 Syn

Hmmmm...I don't quite agree with Guy's assessment of the upgrades.

IMO, the upgrade synthesizer is supposed to be an improvement if 1) you need
better full CW QSK, and 2) if you need to copy very weak close-in CW signals
in the presence of S9+ signals and/or if you do a lot of contesting. The
basic K3 handles both of these criteria pretty well, comparatively speaking
(look at the Sherwood data), and the quoted '$600' difference is strictly a
user's option. I just sold my five year old K3 with the understanding that I
was selling the buyer a darned good radio (that did not have the new
upgrades) and I don't think the buyer was short-changed at all.
Just my opinion of course!

73,
Tom - W4BQF

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Charlie T, K3ICH
Sent: Monday, March 2, 2015 8:31 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New K3 Syn

Good point Guy.

That's why a "Round Emblem" Collins S-Line is worth much more than the
"Winged Emblem" version, even so quite a few say a particular early *
receiver is actually better than their newer ones.

"Does it have the latest mods?" is a very pertinent question when offering a
K3 for sale.

Every time the "Big-Three" comes out with a new radio, the street value of
old one drops 10% to 30%.

I agree with Elecraft's philosophy. I have an early K3 that is identical in
performance with S/N 9XXX.

73, Charlie k3ICH

* Winged 75S-3 vs. a Round 75S-3B

----- Original Message -----
From: "Guy Olinger K2AV" <[hidden email]>
To: "drewko" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2015 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New K3 Syn

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Grant Youngman

Re: Why Upgrade (Was: Re: New K3 Syn)

In reply to this post by Barry Baines

This has really gotten so far beyond anything rational.

Should I upgrade? Shouldn’t I upgrade? Will it matter to me since I only operate on empty bands? What is Elecraft’s business model? What is the gross margin on the new boards? What is air?

Good grief guys. Upgrade. Don’t upgrade. Upgrade now. Upgrade later. Toss the K3 and buy an IC7851. Take an axe to your K3 because you bought one right before the new boards were delivered.

Pick one … and move on.

Grant NQ5T

> On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:50 PM, Barry Baines <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Dave:
>
> You raise an interesting question, and the answer depends upon the underlying premise that drives your decisions.
>
> If you presume that indeed you plan to sell the rig in a couple of years and that best way to sell a rig in the future is to have it "current" when you place it on the market, then presumably that means purchasing upgrades prior to placing it on the market. The question then becomes "buy the upgrade now or buy later?" The answer depends upon how you view the benefits of the upgrades:
>
> 1. Buy it now before potential prices increases later for those upgrades. There is no guarantee that today's prices will remain unchanged (labor, materials and other costs of production do change) so this is an assumption that the likelihood is that prices will go probably go up.
>
> 2. Recognize that the future value of the radio may be enhanced by adding the upgrade, but the "net value" of that rig will likely not increase as much as the cost of the upgrade. "Depreciation" coupled with the recognition that there is likely no warranty carry forward if the upgrade is installed by the prior seller means that the value to the buyer is less than what you paid for it. In other words, you'll get more for the rig, but the numbers may not offset the cost of the upgrade itself.
>
> 3. If you're going to install the upgrade at some point in the future anyway and you can afford to pay for it now, why not do the upgrade sooner rather than later? That way you'll also gain the benefit of the improvement for the remaining time that you own that rig, offsetting to some degree the "cost" of that upgrade through the enjoyment of those enhancements. This rationale is similar to your comment about making the purchase because you want the benefit of the upgrade. I'm adding to that sentiment by suggesting that if the purchase will definitely be made at some point, it is better to do so sooner rather than later so that you can benefit from it as well.
>
> 4. After using the enhancements it may be conceivable that the capabilities of the "new rig" may preclude the desire to sell it, thus avoiding the pain and suffering of placing it on the market in the first place and then going through the process of deciding what to get next.
>
> 5. Even if we decide not to do the upgrades and later sell the rig, the relative value of the "base case" is likely enhanced versus other products because the buyer has the option to add the enhancements. The rig is not locked into only those capabilities that existed at the time of production.
>
> The same approach should be considered in other major transactions. For example, if you know that you'l be selling your home in 3-5 years and recognize that some enhancements are needed to improve the marketability, why not do the upgrades sooner rather than just before placing the home on the market? That way you'll have the opportunity to enjoy the enhancements plus costs never go down, they always go up. Lock-in those costs earlier and not pay more later. Heck, you may decide after doing the enhancements to not sell after all, which is probably cheaper than going through the pain and suffering of selling one home, buying another, and then getting the new home setup the way you want it.
>
> Of course such decisions in amateur radio or other aspects of life are not always based on "logic" or economics. And each person has a different interpretation of cost vs. benefit, thus driving different decisions. I think we can all agree, however, that having Elecraft provide improvements to their products through both firmware and hardware updates is generally a good thing and that the marginal cost of these improvements has been less than purchasing a brand new comparable rig from Elecraft or someone else's product.
>
>
> FWIW and Enjoy the Ride,
>
> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
> Westborough, MA
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:16 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Please explain the advantage of spending all that money now instead of potentially spending it several years from now when you might ... might ... want to sell the rig. Buying the new synths now because you want the better performance makes perfect sense ... buying them now purely to avoid buying them later makes no sense to me at all.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>> On 3/2/2015 1:31 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>> One thing that people need to remember when making a purchase decision on
>>> K3 upgrades, is that in the future, wanting to sell a K3, one of the first
>>> questions will be whether the rig has the newer synthesizer(s). For me,
>>> without, that would be a $300 derating for single RX and a $600 derating
>>> for the old boards. Cost plus inconvenience to bring it up to spec.
>>>
>>> It's like selling a K3 that has only a few of the mods, and particularly
>>> not having the new audio board. Someone buys it and immediately sends it
>>> back to the factory to be brought up to date, if they buy it.
>>>
>>> And then of course there are the "unintended" positive side benefits of an
>>> upgrade, like the much clearer audio when the AGC significant digit problem
>>> was fixed. Don't know what they are this time around, but I'm sure there
>>> are some.
>>>
>>> Beyond that, there is the profit angle, where a small percentage of total
>>> rig value is invested to bring it up to date, avoiding a new rig purchase
>>> to obtain same. Your purchase of upgrade materials rewards that business
>>> strategy and helps insure they keep doing business that way.
>>>
>>> If that were not enough, it maintains the reputation of a rig as not
>>> becoming obsolete, vastly improving its resale value.
>>>
>>> Seven year old radio, as modified, still at the top of the heap. Just how
>>> good is that.
>>>
>>> And still more, that means that any new Elecraft rig will build on top of
>>> proven CURRENT firmware and hardware knowledge, there because there were
>>> customer purchases to support it. The KX3 is a very clear example of that.
>>>
>>> Yeah it's certainly YOUR pocketbook and not mine, but hanging back is short
>>> term strategy and what I'm talking about is long term strategy. Don't lose
>>> sight of the long term. Support your radio manufacturer.
>>>
>>> 73, Guy K2AV
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:17 AM, drewko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not a bad idea... It would be nice to hear before and after
>>>> recordings.
>>>>
>>>> Also, recordings with the RF gain at max and sidetone volume at zero
>>>> while the rig is being keyed, in presence of other signals and alone
>>>> in the background noise. That should provide a good comparison of
>>>> clicks and pops without distraction.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Drew
>>>> AF2Z
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:19:42 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Don, all,
>>>>> Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already
>>>> excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved
>>>> QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense
>>>> of a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create and
>>>> make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW
>>>> circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the
>>>> decision to buy.
>>>>> Thanks & 73,
>>>>> John K1JD
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

David Gilbert

Re: Why Upgrade (Was: Re: New K3 Syn)

In reply to this post by Barry Baines

You need to research the concept of the "time value of money." As I
said before, if the benefit is useful to you now, by all means buy the
upgrade now. If it isn't, it simply becomes a race between inflation
and potential increases in cost whether or not it makes any sense to do
so. Everything else you said is simply a rationalization.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 3/2/2015 11:50 AM, Barry Baines wrote:

> Dave:
>
> You raise an interesting question, and the answer depends upon the underlying premise that drives your decisions.
>
> If you presume that indeed you plan to sell the rig in a couple of years and that best way to sell a rig in the future is to have it "current" when you place it on the market, then presumably that means purchasing upgrades prior to placing it on the market. The question then becomes "buy the upgrade now or buy later?" The answer depends upon how you view the benefits of the upgrades:
>
> 1. Buy it now before potential prices increases later for those upgrades. There is no guarantee that today's prices will remain unchanged (labor, materials and other costs of production do change) so this is an assumption that the likelihood is that prices will go probably go up.
>
> 2. Recognize that the future value of the radio may be enhanced by adding the upgrade, but the "net value" of that rig will likely not increase as much as the cost of the upgrade. "Depreciation" coupled with the recognition that there is likely no warranty carry forward if the upgrade is installed by the prior seller means that the value to the buyer is less than what you paid for it. In other words, you'll get more for the rig, but the numbers may not offset the cost of the upgrade itself.
>
> 3. If you're going to install the upgrade at some point in the future anyway and you can afford to pay for it now, why not do the upgrade sooner rather than later? That way you'll also gain the benefit of the improvement for the remaining time that you own that rig, offsetting to some degree the "cost" of that upgrade through the enjoyment of those enhancements. This rationale is similar to your comment about making the purchase because you want the benefit of the upgrade. I'm adding to that sentiment by suggesting that if the purchase will definitely be made at some point, it is better to do so sooner rather than later so that you can benefit from it as well.
>
> 4. After using the enhancements it may be conceivable that the capabilities of the "new rig" may preclude the desire to sell it, thus avoiding the pain and suffering of placing it on the market in the first place and then going through the process of deciding what to get next.
>
> 5. Even if we decide not to do the upgrades and later sell the rig, the relative value of the "base case" is likely enhanced versus other products because the buyer has the option to add the enhancements. The rig is not locked into only those capabilities that existed at the time of production.
>
> The same approach should be considered in other major transactions. For example, if you know that you'l be selling your home in 3-5 years and recognize that some enhancements are needed to improve the marketability, why not do the upgrades sooner rather than just before placing the home on the market? That way you'll have the opportunity to enjoy the enhancements plus costs never go down, they always go up. Lock-in those costs earlier and not pay more later. Heck, you may decide after doing the enhancements to not sell after all, which is probably cheaper than going through the pain and suffering of selling one home, buying another, and then getting the new home setup the way you want it.
>
> Of course such decisions in amateur radio or other aspects of life are not always based on "logic" or economics. And each person has a different interpretation of cost vs. benefit, thus driving different decisions. I think we can all agree, however, that having Elecraft provide improvements to their products through both firmware and hardware updates is generally a good thing and that the marginal cost of these improvements has been less than purchasing a brand new comparable rig from Elecraft or someone else's product.
>
>
> FWIW and Enjoy the Ride,
>
> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
> Westborough, MA
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:16 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Please explain the advantage of spending all that money now instead of potentially spending it several years from now when you might ... might ... want to sell the rig. Buying the new synths now because you want the better performance makes perfect sense ... buying them now purely to avoid buying them later makes no sense to me at all.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>> On 3/2/2015 1:31 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>> One thing that people need to remember when making a purchase decision on
>>> K3 upgrades, is that in the future, wanting to sell a K3, one of the first
>>> questions will be whether the rig has the newer synthesizer(s). For me,
>>> without, that would be a $300 derating for single RX and a $600 derating
>>> for the old boards. Cost plus inconvenience to bring it up to spec.
>>>
>>> It's like selling a K3 that has only a few of the mods, and particularly
>>> not having the new audio board. Someone buys it and immediately sends it
>>> back to the factory to be brought up to date, if they buy it.
>>>
>>> And then of course there are the "unintended" positive side benefits of an
>>> upgrade, like the much clearer audio when the AGC significant digit problem
>>> was fixed. Don't know what they are this time around, but I'm sure there
>>> are some.
>>>
>>> Beyond that, there is the profit angle, where a small percentage of total
>>> rig value is invested to bring it up to date, avoiding a new rig purchase
>>> to obtain same. Your purchase of upgrade materials rewards that business
>>> strategy and helps insure they keep doing business that way.
>>>
>>> If that were not enough, it maintains the reputation of a rig as not
>>> becoming obsolete, vastly improving its resale value.
>>>
>>> Seven year old radio, as modified, still at the top of the heap. Just how
>>> good is that.
>>>
>>> And still more, that means that any new Elecraft rig will build on top of
>>> proven CURRENT firmware and hardware knowledge, there because there were
>>> customer purchases to support it. The KX3 is a very clear example of that.
>>>
>>> Yeah it's certainly YOUR pocketbook and not mine, but hanging back is short
>>> term strategy and what I'm talking about is long term strategy. Don't lose
>>> sight of the long term. Support your radio manufacturer.
>>>
>>> 73, Guy K2AV
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:17 AM, drewko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not a bad idea... It would be nice to hear before and after
>>>> recordings.
>>>>
>>>> Also, recordings with the RF gain at max and sidetone volume at zero
>>>> while the rig is being keyed, in presence of other signals and alone
>>>> in the background noise. That should provide a good comparison of
>>>> clicks and pops without distraction.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Drew
>>>> AF2Z
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 07:19:42 -0700, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Don, all,
>>>>> Discussed this upgrade with Vidi ZS1EL yesterday. Given the already
>>>> excellent K3 RX, ours and presumably others' primary interest is improved
>>>> QSK, including the new mode reported to reduce clicks/pops at the expense
>>>> of a little slower QSK. Could someone with the upgrade installed create and
>>>> make available an audio file of the receiver output while transmitting CW
>>>> circa 30-40 WPM? Hearing what it actually sounds like will help with the
>>>> decision to buy.
>>>>> Thanks & 73,
>>>>> John K1JD
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Barry Baines

Re: Why Upgrade (Was: Re: New K3 Syn)

Dave:

I believe we're pretty much in agreement on this...

> On Mar 3, 2015, at 1:51 AM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You need to research the concept of the "time value of money." As I said before, if the benefit is useful to you now, by all means buy the upgrade now. If it isn't, it simply becomes a race between inflation and potential increases in cost whether or not it makes any sense to do so.

Inflation and potential cost increases are indeed components of "time value of money" as well as what is the expected value of the radio in the future? I did not use that phrase, but the concept of "time value of money" includes expected inflation/cost increases as well as the projected "price" for an item. I also made the initial presumption that the "widget" would be purchased in any event in the next couple of years and installed in the radio; I wasn't suggesting that the decision to purchase in of itself is the proper one to make.

Please keep in mind that "Time Value of Money" basically states that a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. The longer the horizon, the less valuable "future money" is worth in today's environment; that is why future earnings are discounted when estimating the value of the same dollar amount after taking into account any potential future income stream from interest or other revenue generator using those same funds.

In today's world where current interest rates are almost non-existent and there is the potential for future price increases, and assuming that the purchase decision has been definitely made ("I'm going to buy this either today or next year") the "time value of money" concept suggests that if you have the funds, buy it now rather than later because of the likelihood that your dollar will buy you less in the future than today.

> Everything else you said is simply a rationalization.

EXACTLY! Everyone implicitly or explicitly makes purchasing decisions based upon a variety of factors and considerations and we all attempt to organize ("rationalize") potentially disparate information in a way that makes sense to us. These may include:

1. Emotion. "I gotta have one of those!" or "The joy that I get from this is worth the price."
2. Utility. "The benefit in terms of how I use my radio will be enhanced by this widget by x%."
3. Cost/Benefit Analysis. "The cost of the widget is less than the perceived value of using this widget".
4. Future Value. "My equipment will be worth more to someone else if this widget is included."
5. Future Return. "When I sell my radio, the incremental revenue gained by including the widget will be greater than the cost of the widget" or "When I sell my radio, the incremental revenue by including the widget PLUS the value of the benefit of using the widget while I owned it is greater than the cost of the widget."
6. Liquidity. "Can I afford to buy it now given other purchasing needs that may have a higher priority?"
7. Alternative Choices. "I have only $xxx to spend on my amateur radio hobby. Is this the best way to use my dollars, or are there other products that will fill more important "needs" than this one?"

This last consideration notes the need to prioritize purchasing decisions. One definition of economics is roughly "how allocation of scarce resources is done in a world of unlimited wants." Our pocketbooks are not deep enough to cover all "wants"; everyone has to prioritize which "wants" are met based upon their own criteria.

Against these "rationalizations" is whether "future reality" meets our expectations. Since no one can predict the future, we all make financial estimations based upon past experience, observing current conditions, making assumptions about the future, and perhaps "hope." We're always taking "bets" that our ability to predict future outcomes will produce a better result than a different decision.

So everyone will come to their own conclusions and there is no universal "right answer". My response below was simply meant to highlight one possible approach to the question you originally asked ("Please explain the advantage of spending all that money now instead of potentially spending it several years from now when you might ... might ... want to sell the rig"), taking into account both the "cost of money" as well as how we might view depreciation and relative value of a widget to the purchaser today and the future buyer in a couple of years. I also noted that selling a rig has its own considerations and that Elecraft's process of product improvement may well allow the current owner to benefit from those enhancements and not sell the rig in order to gain the latest benefits in a different product. In other words, generally speaking it is usually better to pay for incremental improvements in a rig that is already paid for than to sell it used (at a discount) and purchas
e a replacement (new at full retail price) unless the new technology is such a game changer that the current value of current products are wiped out.

Clearly this new "widget" has generated lots of buzz. And those that believe the cost of the new widget is "worth it" will buy it now because they believe it will bring significant benefit. If one doesn't see the value of this widget relative to other purchasing choices, they will defer on it.

FWIW & 73,

Barry
WD4ASW

>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
> On 3/2/2015 11:50 AM, Barry Baines wrote:
>> Dave:
>>
>> You raise an interesting question, and the answer depends upon the underlying premise that drives your decisions.
>>
>> If you presume that indeed you plan to sell the rig in a couple of years and that best way to sell a rig in the future is to have it "current" when you place it on the market, then presumably that means purchasing upgrades prior to placing it on the market. The question then becomes "buy the upgrade now or buy later?" The answer depends upon how you view the benefits of the upgrades:
>>
>> 1. Buy it now before potential prices increases later for those upgrades. There is no guarantee that today's prices will remain unchanged (labor, materials and other costs of production do change) so this is an assumption that the likelihood is that prices will go probably go up.
>>
>> 2. Recognize that the future value of the radio may be enhanced by adding the upgrade, but the "net value" of that rig will likely not increase as much as the cost of the upgrade. "Depreciation" coupled with the recognition that there is likely no warranty carry forward if the upgrade is installed by the prior seller means that the value to the buyer is less than what you paid for it. In other words, you'll get more for the rig, but the numbers may not offset the cost of the upgrade itself.
>>
>> 3. If you're going to install the upgrade at some point in the future anyway and you can afford to pay for it now, why not do the upgrade sooner rather than later? That way you'll also gain the benefit of the improvement for the remaining time that you own that rig, offsetting to some degree the "cost" of that upgrade through the enjoyment of those enhancements. This rationale is similar to your comment about making the purchase because you want the benefit of the upgrade. I'm adding to that sentiment by suggesting that if the purchase will definitely be made at some point, it is better to do so sooner rather than later so that you can benefit from it as well.
>>
>> 4. After using the enhancements it may be conceivable that the capabilities of the "new rig" may preclude the desire to sell it, thus avoiding the pain and suffering of placing it on the market in the first place and then going through the process of deciding what to get next.
>>
>> 5. Even if we decide not to do the upgrades and later sell the rig, the relative value of the "base case" is likely enhanced versus other products because the buyer has the option to add the enhancements. The rig is not locked into only those capabilities that existed at the time of production.
>>
>> The same approach should be considered in other major transactions. For example, if you know that you'l be selling your home in 3-5 years and recognize that some enhancements are needed to improve the marketability, why not do the upgrades sooner rather than just before placing the home on the market? That way you'll have the opportunity to enjoy the enhancements plus costs never go down, they always go up. Lock-in those costs earlier and not pay more later. Heck, you may decide after doing the enhancements to not sell after all, which is probably cheaper than going through the pain and suffering of selling one home, buying another, and then getting the new home setup the way you want it.
>>
>> Of course such decisions in amateur radio or other aspects of life are not always based on "logic" or economics. And each person has a different interpretation of cost vs. benefit, thus driving different decisions. I think we can all agree, however, that having Elecraft provide improvements to their products through both firmware and hardware updates is generally a good thing and that the marginal cost of these improvements has been less than purchasing a brand new comparable rig from Elecraft or someone else's product.
>>
>>
>> FWIW and Enjoy the Ride,
>>
>> Barry Baines, WD4ASW
>> Westborough, MA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 2, 2015, at 1:16 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Please explain the advantage of spending all that money now instead of potentially spending it several years from now when you might ... might ... want to sell the rig. Buying the new synths now because you want the better performance makes perfect sense ... buying them now purely to avoid buying them later makes no sense to me at all.
>>>
>>> Dave AB7E