New KPA1500 manual
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When I was in the military, and a pub was changed, they just sent
new pages that had the changes. That way they didn't have to re- publish the whole thing. Could Elecraft tell us which pages had been changed so we can print them out without doing the whole manual? 73, Roger ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Yep and my JEP charts were updated weekly. " Remove xx, insert yy."
Addendum is the easiest way. Bob, K4TAX Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 28, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Roger D Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote: > > When I was in the military, and a pub was changed, they just sent > new pages that had the changes. That way they didn't have to re- > publish the whole thing. > > Could Elecraft tell us which pages had been changed so we can print > them out without doing the whole manual? > > 73, Roger > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Roger D Johnson
I have manuals for my radio gear in searchable form downloaded to my Samsung tablet. New, complete manuals are better for me than changes which I have no way to insert.Bob R n7wySent from my Galaxy Tab® A
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The errata pages are also essential. The manuals are not updated with
every change. More applicable to the radios than to amplifiers is the Firmware Release Notes which can be considered as additional information about the operation of the radio. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/29/2019 11:32 AM, n7wy via Elecraft wrote: > I have manuals for my radio gear in searchable form downloaded to my Samsung tablet. New, complete manuals are better for me than changes which I have no way to insert.Bob R n7wySent from my Galaxy Tab® A ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list
Right on! First, I have over two decades of experience with replacing
printed pages in Air Force Technical Orders. What a PITA, but necessary. Today, those are distributed electronically and printed locally. Often, it's not possible to make a change that affects only one page since the change, often an addition, pushes information on to the next page. Thanks to Elecraft (not all manufactures do this), we can annotate the PDF versions with the latest firmware notes, ideas from this reflector, our just our own pointers. The PDF then becomes a current, searchable document of great value! As I point out in my ham radio presentations, it's 2019. We do a lot of things with computers now. Join the 21st century. The technology has certain advantages, especially if you back-up your data. 73, Bill, K8TE -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Agreed, the Elecraft PDF's are very good, and I do edit my K3 PDFmanual
with notes. I've never printed it. Since the K3 is an essentially mature product [I haven't made a FW update in a couple of years ... I'm not even sure there has been a release in that period], nearly all the notes I add are "my" notes about things I've learned, obscure menu settings, and the like. That said, in 2019, the term "searchable" is sometimes overrated. Searchable implies that you have some idea of what you're looking for. Often, at least for me, a spiral bound book that lays flat on the desk and I can write in with a table of contents and an index is ideal. I bought the spiral bound version of the KE7X book for just that reason. I have a station journal [notebook - old engineering habit] and most of my annotations are to a volume/page where I've written about or recorded something. It may be 2019 but the latest and greatest doesn't always replace the tried and true. CW may be a good example. [:-) New subject: The quoted post below is all I got on the Elecraft list. I don't know what prompted it. It will lubricate the information flow on the list if the relevant posts in a thread are left in ... at least the one you're replying to. 73, Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW Sparks NV DM09dn Washoe County On 4/8/2019 11:34 AM, K8TE wrote: > Right on! First, I have over two decades of experience with replacing > printed pages in Air Force Technical Orders. What a PITA, but necessary. > Today, those are distributed electronically and printed locally. Often, > it's not possible to make a change that affects only one page since the > change, often an addition, pushes information on to the next page. > > Thanks to Elecraft (not all manufactures do this), we can annotate the PDF > versions with the latest firmware notes, ideas from this reflector, our just > our own pointers. The PDF then becomes a current, searchable document of > great value! > > As I point out in my ham radio presentations, it's 2019. We do a lot of > things with computers now. Join the 21st century. The technology has > certain advantages, especially if you back-up your data. > > 73, Bill, K8TE > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by K8TE
Bill,
Having spent time, over many years, piecemeal updating Jeppersen and CASA (the national aviation regulatory authority) pilot documents, I regard it as wasted time I'll never get back. I hope that Elecraft does not go down this path but agree absolutely that, these days, good searchable PDFs make life much easier. One thing that is always useful is the update register (already often used) and text markers indicating changes from the previous edition (often vertical bars at affected paragraphs). On the subject of the KPA1500 manual, I have much appreciated the additions to the original document but would like to see the block diagram expanded to make it more useful in terms of appreciating the amplifier topology and the relation to connectors, etc. For example, the current very terse diagram does not show the pre-distortion coupler or its location and, if you hadn't had a spectrum analyser on the amplifier, you might not appreciate that it's not a direct output coupler. Of course, I'd like to see the whole schematic but I understand that it must be a tricky commercial IP balancing act with a new product. 73, Peter (VK6HP). -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of K8TE Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2019 2:34 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] new KPA1500 Manual Right on! First, I have over two decades of experience with replacing printed pages in Air Force Technical Orders. What a PITA, but necessary. Today, those are distributed electronically and printed locally. Often, it's not possible to make a change that affects only one page since the change, often an addition, pushes information on to the next page. Thanks to Elecraft (not all manufactures do this), we can annotate the PDF versions with the latest firmware notes, ideas from this reflector, our just our own pointers. The PDF then becomes a current, searchable document of great value! As I point out in my ham radio presentations, it's 2019. We do a lot of things with computers now. Join the 21st century. The technology has certain advantages, especially if you back-up your data. 73, Bill, K8TE -- Sent from: http://secure-web.cisco.com/1ly5jG_z3c_ghFK4l_kVBFZrlCKkrMidJYBdwHxcCu3z2lgrmQrao4hnCsJiXrJi0GQVeY5htK-Vh4dQ16ZnFIQU-gBLNh6WwLOG-Pobdsz2l7JPiP-RZfnKzhbShygqpsgyBIbiKZoHEfIG4ZavEgPnhBX124hZDghSJKQTxsh71sJ6EZ8YRh8rxDE9XfyHRiHT1L5tI6UEq-mq43tNLo37ylKZzIGeqbUGidwyuqwiWd1g7He9T7MuWFpLGW7trTaVoSyd23L_IO-4AvaRTaCrYHBtYK-f3Dd90aPLnsyuR2wQXsnHXTnSeOEwNLKL_ye1IsOk-ulrUpbgI-5U5sJjsDXugiwFsOWxQkuI2QHT-wWKA5XNhToEUZtd0r8JnXq9o51L1kiPSFnmlgDqW3ENGmGd2FtGAxrU9UQjmeBWXpyBYm0pkl0WpvaFfGiPUzqDdhKwKLQYBg7WAcp2GLQ-XHIYS_hNpcS5M5NIHPEQ/http%3A%2F%2Felecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com%2F ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://secure-web.cisco.com/15Xu-tgWxGQXmtH17CkIuIwXVaL8qUYmdndVBK0xxyOmLymTGEAlA0Geea95i-no3tp_bPZBNggdFpXObVRtLe8WhkU5sWwCdt_anhUUszZE-jSAupHNd-5ONp_8CsgKAsSi2lpvNlqKZTbBSEHth92SLHqbEnyh6LClTOebVR9BiExmqTX_3W6qp1c9jnYlzmvX8X97TQUoo7mRBhoJ--dww3ybGz4fahocE3zYjz-RKP8XOF2qLAib_1H88L6vSMdLB8-gYJllrGE2m2pkekZK4oEI1CKRCrIVw9a2XFUQFUWmql3AvsNRAFMpqS_-DDVQrU9IZY9Jye6sHW-KP_Vw0N7lP0gQ6MkZxNe_cQvM1fF5s9wANN2NHXVYLcoaJUTYK6jgU1FH0DCOKMcEaF5YlXYRJZmjZybu5xMReoHxVeF80cgdW2zypuzn2OnK60AasxTi8gdRTZCiYNYGGEzTpa7XYQH7_aJSrblWPS4g/http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.qth.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Felecraft Help: http://secure-web.cisco.com/1cujNAln9yePUe_hD0GtSsEil37DEFfqz1ns3hNMNkkhEfxMRkZE2DNaxChG6wEdLZJbhxrLIlkdsZYL9emd6163d3yNdvVZhkXk0Q2LsFq3s3Ma4FK6zKipikd13Nof-UTrDYfU53JFlk2t1UzU6qEl4s5j_XKABA96zXVw3ZMMbUTPdeB1FY4AQqoxdeZsYljmDI-wDQseFKrnJCw-Pk3qw4KyrAgHlmK5YTH3kAI-7dCa4N7-AL4CicYbxwz4B-xNZ4vp8l-vLCQVtyi3ZENhYM2evZFpFZtTr6mVq5gtXU0RTrRACavcnHgAVO46lv9gByBE8tmpigzySKG8DjNzZB5spxNq06Q4wviQAKexbSLh5XgvMZcfUcN7XP-o-V4EA_-IPjfVd_9FdUo2Ltjx_xULVvYFnHMPFbrulBZXGKroEol3MyIECvXreKRt1__8XKifMQRxo2VIYLHqND_vSMfJ95nQo5IHDbkoqVRA/http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.qth.net%2Fmmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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On 4/8/2019 10:52 PM, Peter Hall wrote:
> Having spent time, over many years, piecemeal updating Jeppersen and CASA (the national aviation regulatory authority) pilot documents, I regard it as wasted time I'll never get back. I hope that Elecraft does not go down this path but agree absolutely that, these days, good searchable PDFs make life much easier. One thing that is always useful is the update register (already often used) and text markers indicating changes from the previous edition (often vertical bars at affected paragraphs). Yes. This is the modern equivalent of those update methods of yesteryear, and a manual that is in any decent publishing application that can produce a pdf is trivially easy to update and to highlight changes. I consider such practice, along with a "change" list in the form of an appendix or separate document, to be the right way to do it. Any competent tech writer ought to be able make the edits and load the updated manual in no more than a half hour after the editing is complete. I can get a new or updated document on my own website in half that time if there's already a link to it on the main page, another 10-15 minutes if it's a new document for which a new link is needed. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Peter Hall
I agree with your comments on the amplifier's manual Peter. Getting tech
data right is a challenge. I spent my last six years in the USAF at a Major Command HQ where I would visit our primary depot twice a year to discuss product improvement. Tech data was a key part of those meetings. Even though most of our troubleshooting stopped at the module replacement level, we had schematics for each module. One year while I was at the base level I got to train a pair of Iranian Air Force sergeants depot level troubleshooting and repair on a UHF ground-to-air transceiver. My background in ham radio gave me the needed understanding of electronics to do that. I will see Elecraft folks at the IDXC in Visalia this coming weekend. I'll likely have dinner with Bob, K6XX, the KPA1500 project manager Saturday night. I'll pass on your thoughts. BTW, I've pushed my KPA1500 hard in two SSB contests already this year. It has performed flawlessly. 73, Bill Mader, K8TE W6H NM Coordinator, Route 66 On-the-Air 7-15 Sep 2019 ARRL New Mexico Section Manager *ARRL - The national association for Amateur Radio**™* Duke City Hamfest BoD www.dukecityhamfest.org 20-22 Sep 2019 President, Albuquerque DX Association On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 11:52 PM Peter Hall <[hidden email]> wrote: > Bill, > > Having spent time, over many years, piecemeal updating Jeppersen and CASA > (the national aviation regulatory authority) pilot documents, I regard it > as wasted time I'll never get back. I hope that Elecraft does not go down > this path but agree absolutely that, these days, good searchable PDFs make > life much easier. One thing that is always useful is the update register > (already often used) and text markers indicating changes from the previous > edition (often vertical bars at affected paragraphs). > > On the subject of the KPA1500 manual, I have much appreciated the > additions to the original document but would like to see the block diagram > expanded to make it more useful in terms of appreciating the amplifier > topology and the relation to connectors, etc. For example, the current > very terse diagram does not show the pre-distortion coupler or its location > and, if you hadn't had a spectrum analyser on the amplifier, you might not > appreciate that it's not a direct output coupler. Of course, I'd like to > see the whole schematic but I understand that it must be a tricky > commercial IP balancing act with a new product. > > 73, Peter (VK6HP). > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> > On Behalf Of K8TE > Sent: Tuesday, 9 April 2019 2:34 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] new KPA1500 Manual > > Right on! First, I have over two decades of experience with replacing > printed pages in Air Force Technical Orders. What a PITA, but necessary. > Today, those are distributed electronically and printed locally. Often, > it's not possible to make a change that affects only one page since the > change, often an addition, pushes information on to the next page. > > Thanks to Elecraft (not all manufactures do this), we can annotate the PDF > versions with the latest firmware notes, ideas from this reflector, our > just our own pointers. The PDF then becomes a current, searchable document > of great value! > > As I point out in my ham radio presentations, it's 2019. We do a lot of > things with computers now. Join the 21st century. The technology has > certain advantages, especially if you back-up your data. > > 73, Bill, K8TE > > > > -- > Sent from: > http://secure-web.cisco.com/1ly5jG_z3c_ghFK4l_kVBFZrlCKkrMidJYBdwHxcCu3z2lgrmQrao4hnCsJiXrJi0GQVeY5htK-Vh4dQ16ZnFIQU-gBLNh6WwLOG-Pobdsz2l7JPiP-RZfnKzhbShygqpsgyBIbiKZoHEfIG4ZavEgPnhBX124hZDghSJKQTxsh71sJ6EZ8YRh8rxDE9XfyHRiHT1L5tI6UEq-mq43tNLo37ylKZzIGeqbUGidwyuqwiWd1g7He9T7MuWFpLGW7trTaVoSyd23L_IO-4AvaRTaCrYHBtYK-f3Dd90aPLnsyuR2wQXsnHXTnSeOEwNLKL_ye1IsOk-ulrUpbgI-5U5sJjsDXugiwFsOWxQkuI2QHT-wWKA5XNhToEUZtd0r8JnXq9o51L1kiPSFnmlgDqW3ENGmGd2FtGAxrU9UQjmeBWXpyBYm0pkl0WpvaFfGiPUzqDdhKwKLQYBg7WAcp2GLQ-XHIYS_hNpcS5M5NIHPEQ/http%3A%2F%2Felecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com%2F > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: > http://secure-web.cisco.com/15Xu-tgWxGQXmtH17CkIuIwXVaL8qUYmdndVBK0xxyOmLymTGEAlA0Geea95i-no3tp_bPZBNggdFpXObVRtLe8WhkU5sWwCdt_anhUUszZE-jSAupHNd-5ONp_8CsgKAsSi2lpvNlqKZTbBSEHth92SLHqbEnyh6LClTOebVR9BiExmqTX_3W6qp1c9jnYlzmvX8X97TQUoo7mRBhoJ--dww3ybGz4fahocE3zYjz-RKP8XOF2qLAib_1H88L6vSMdLB8-gYJllrGE2m2pkekZK4oEI1CKRCrIVw9a2XFUQFUWmql3AvsNRAFMpqS_-DDVQrU9IZY9Jye6sHW-KP_Vw0N7lP0gQ6MkZxNe_cQvM1fF5s9wANN2NHXVYLcoaJUTYK6jgU1FH0DCOKMcEaF5YlXYRJZmjZybu5xMReoHxVeF80cgdW2zypuzn2OnK60AasxTi8gdRTZCiYNYGGEzTpa7XYQH7_aJSrblWPS4g/http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.qth.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Felecraft > Help: > http://secure-web.cisco.com/1cujNAln9yePUe_hD0GtSsEil37DEFfqz1ns3hNMNkkhEfxMRkZE2DNaxChG6wEdLZJbhxrLIlkdsZYL9emd6163d3yNdvVZhkXk0Q2LsFq3s3Ma4FK6zKipikd13Nof-UTrDYfU53JFlk2t1UzU6qEl4s5j_XKABA96zXVw3ZMMbUTPdeB1FY4AQqoxdeZsYljmDI-wDQseFKrnJCw-Pk3qw4KyrAgHlmK5YTH3kAI-7dCa4N7-AL4CicYbxwz4B-xNZ4vp8l-vLCQVtyi3ZENhYM2evZFpFZtTr6mVq5gtXU0RTrRACavcnHgAVO46lv9gByBE8tmpigzySKG8DjNzZB5spxNq06Q4wviQAKexbSLh5XgvMZcfUcN7XP-o-V4EA_-IPjfVd_9FdUo2Ltjx_xULVvYFnHMPFbrulBZXGKroEol3MyIECvXreKRt1__8XKifMQRxo2VIYLHqND_vSMfJ95nQo5IHDbkoqVRA/http%3A%2F%2Fmailman.qth.net%2Fmmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Yes, the USAF Technical Orders for a system could fill a bookcase if
printed, and they were printed then. I don't remember many of the volumes but the -1 was "How to fly the airplane" [or operate the radio], -6 was the Illustrated Parts Breakdown, I think -5 was the parts list. There was usually a volume describing packaging for shipment of the myriad of modules in the system, and maybe one for storage requirements of various parts. The well-worn joke was, "When the weight of the paper equals the weight of the airplane, you're cleared for takeoff." And, updates, in the form of page changes, could have life/death consequences if not done. [see Boeing] However ... tech data for a ham transceiver is light years removed from that environment and comparison really isn't fair or sensible. Elecraft's manual, like all manufacturers', approaches the radio from the perspective of, "Here are all the controls and here's what they do." There's some information about how the radio works, but it's not anywhere near exhaustive. KE7X's books approach it from the perspective of "Here are the things you may want to do with your radio, and here's how to do them." Again, there's information about what's inside and how it does it, but it's not exhaustive. No ham manufacturer that I know of publishes page changes. Most of what I write in my station notebook is stuff I've learned about my radios ... how to set up RTTY, how to switch from local to remote operation, anomalies such as the P3 span issue when changing bands via SW commands, TX/RX EQ and AGC settings, etc. It's not info Elecraft sends out. I annotate the PDF manual with the volume/page in my notebook where the item is described. For me at least, the Elecraft PDF, KE7X spiral-bound book, and notes in my notebook work fine. I would have liked a printed spiral-bound K3 manual that lays flat on the desk, but the PDF works. 73, Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW Sparks NV DM09dn Washoe County On 4/9/2019 4:46 AM, Bill Mader wrote: > I agree with your comments on the amplifier's manual Peter. Getting tech > data right is a challenge. I spent my last six years in the USAF at a > Major Command HQ where I would visit our primary depot twice a year to > discuss product improvement. Tech data was a key part of those meetings. > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Fred:
If you take a manual on a thumb drive, Staples can print it and spiral-bound it. Tom W4KX Sent from my iPad > On Apr 9, 2019, at 2:44 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Yes, the USAF Technical Orders for a system could fill a bookcase if printed, and they were printed then. I don't remember many of the volumes but the -1 was "How to fly the airplane" [or operate the radio], -6 was the Illustrated Parts Breakdown, I think -5 was the parts list. There was usually a volume describing packaging for shipment of the myriad of modules in the system, and maybe one for storage requirements of various parts. The well-worn joke was, "When the weight of the paper equals the weight of the airplane, you're cleared for takeoff." And, updates, in the form of page changes, could have life/death consequences if not done. [see Boeing] > > However ... tech data for a ham transceiver is light years removed from that environment and comparison really isn't fair or sensible. Elecraft's manual, like all manufacturers', approaches the radio from the perspective of, "Here are all the controls and here's what they do." There's some information about how the radio works, but it's not anywhere near exhaustive. KE7X's books approach it from the perspective of "Here are the things you may want to do with your radio, and here's how to do them." Again, there's information about what's inside and how it does it, but it's not exhaustive. No ham manufacturer that I know of publishes page changes. > > Most of what I write in my station notebook is stuff I've learned about my radios ... how to set up RTTY, how to switch from local to remote operation, anomalies such as the P3 span issue when changing bands via SW commands, TX/RX EQ and AGC settings, etc. It's not info Elecraft sends out. I annotate the PDF manual with the volume/page in my notebook where the item is described. For me at least, the Elecraft PDF, KE7X spiral-bound book, and notes in my notebook work fine. I would have liked a printed spiral-bound K3 manual that lays flat on the desk, but the PDF works. > > 73, > Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW > Sparks NV DM09dn > Washoe County > >> On 4/9/2019 4:46 AM, Bill Mader wrote: >> I agree with your comments on the amplifier's manual Peter. Getting tech >> data right is a challenge. I spent my last six years in the USAF at a >> Major Command HQ where I would visit our primary depot twice a year to >> discuss product improvement. Tech data was a key part of those meetings. >> > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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