Elecraft

New Output Power Issue

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alsopb

Re: New Output Power Issue

The first rule in troubleshooting is to unplug everything that isn't
absolutely necessary to the equipment being diagnosed.

In this case all that would be needed is power, ant/dummy load and the K3.

Then start plugging things in until you find the offending device.

73 de Brian/K3KO

Ian Kahn - Ham wrote:

> So, it looks like I tracked down my low output issue. The problem
> appears to be with my West Mountain RigRunner, not my K3. A big "thank
> you" to all who offered guidance on getting this thing tested and
> troubleshot.
>
> Thank you, 73, es Merry Christmas!
>
> --Ian
>
> Ian Kahn, KM4IK
> Roswell, GA EM74ua
> [hidden email]
> K3 #281, P3 #688
> HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team
>
> On 12/24/2012 12:22 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
>> Might not be a 30W drop, but a matter of calibrations of both the
>> internal wattmeter (there is a menu item to adjust it) and the
>> external wattmeter.
>>
>> If the output power is set to 100W and the internal wattmeter is
>> reporting 100W, then the K3 is happy. If in fact the output power is
>> only 70 W (double check if the ATU is bypassed or in line, antenna
>> wiring and chassis connections are tight int he k3 etc), then the K3
>> wattmeter may need to be calibrated. If that is the case, you need to
>> go to the menu and adjust it. But only do this if you are CERTAIN
>> your external wattmeter is in fact accurate. Once you are certain the
>> K3 wattmeter is reporting within spec, re-run the Tx calibration.
>>
>> BTW I think a 2V drop is still excessive. Might be long runs or light
>> gauge wire or ? But that is a separate issue from the wattmeter
>> accuracy.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Lyle KK7P
>>
>>> It is highly possible the culprit is my RigRunner, purchased in March
>>> of this year. When I took it out of line, the voltage drop went from
>>> over 4V on tx to under 2V (13.8V down to about 12V). Current draw is
>>> .78 to .82 amps on rx and 19.8 amps on tx. However, while the
>>> internal power meter shows 100W, an external meter into a dummy load
>>> only shows 70 watts out. The current and voltage readings look
>>> normal, according to Rev. D10 of the owner's manual. But I'm still
>>> concerned about a 30W drop at the output. Anyone have any other
>>> suggestions?
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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>

Jack Berry

Re: New Output Power Issue

In reply to this post by Ian Kahn, KM4IK

Bet it's the Power Pole connectors, meaning the installation of the connectors. But if it is the RigRunner, West Mountain will take care of it.

Glad you isolated the problem!

On Dec 24, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Ian Kahn - Ham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So, it looks like I tracked down my low output issue. The problem appears to be with my West Mountain RigRunner, not my K3. A big "thank you" to all who offered guidance on getting this thing tested and troubleshot.
>
> Thank you, 73, es Merry Christmas!
>
> --Ian
>
> Ian Kahn, KM4IK
> Roswell, GA EM74ua
> [hidden email]
> K3 #281, P3 #688
> HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team
>
> On 12/24/2012 12:22 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
>> Might not be a 30W drop, but a matter of calibrations of both the internal wattmeter (there is a menu item to adjust it) and the external wattmeter.
>>
>> If the output power is set to 100W and the internal wattmeter is reporting 100W, then the K3 is happy. If in fact the output power is only 70 W (double check if the ATU is bypassed or in line, antenna wiring and chassis connections are tight int he k3 etc), then the K3 wattmeter may need to be calibrated. If that is the case, you need to go to the menu and adjust it. But only do this if you are CERTAIN your external wattmeter is in fact accurate. Once you are certain the K3 wattmeter is reporting within spec, re-run the Tx calibration.
>>
>> BTW I think a 2V drop is still excessive. Might be long runs or light gauge wire or ? But that is a separate issue from the wattmeter accuracy.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Lyle KK7P
>>
>>> It is highly possible the culprit is my RigRunner, purchased in March of this year. When I took it out of line, the voltage drop went from over 4V on tx to under 2V (13.8V down to about 12V). Current draw is .78 to .82 amps on rx and 19.8 amps on tx. However, while the internal power meter shows 100W, an external meter into a dummy load only shows 70 watts out. The current and voltage readings look normal, according to Rev. D10 of the owner's manual. But I'm still concerned about a 30W drop at the output. Anyone have any other suggestions?
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Twan at pa0kv.nl

Re: New Output Power Issue

In reply to this post by Ian Kahn, KM4IK

Bad regulated power supply.
I use a MANSON EP-925 (also known with other brand names).
This handles 25 amps easy with just a few 0.1 of voltage drop.
After some successful mods it is stable within 0.05 V RX/TX 100 Watt at 13.80 Volt.
(If interested see my mods at http://pa0fri.home.xs4all.nl/Diversen/EP925/ep925eng.htm)

Merry X-mass and a happy new year to you all.

Twan - PA0KV

K3 -1770
--------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2012 10:18:27 -0500
From: Ian Kahn - Ham<[hidden email]>
To:[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Output Power Issue
Message-ID:<[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Update on my low output issue:

I ran the TX Gain Calibration this morning, and everything passed with
flying colors.

I am seeing about a 4-4.5V drop across the radio when going from rx to
tx. Rx voltage sits at 13.8V, but when I transmit, voltage across the
rig drops to between 9 and 9.5V.

All tests performed while tuned into a 300W dummy load.

Before I tear into my rig and start looking for corroded tin pins on the
PA board (K3 #281, so unlikely the board was replaced/mod performed), is
there anything else I should test while my station is still all together
in one piece?

Thanks to everyone for the assistance, and Merry Christmas!

73,

--Ian

Ian Kahn, KM4IK

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Jack Berry

Re: New Output Power Issue

In reply to this post by Ian Kahn, KM4IK

Forgot to mention, absolutely run the calibration again with the correct 13.8V supply. Then address the power output - if it still exists.

On Dec 24, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Ian Kahn - Ham <[hidden email]> wrote:

ke9uw

Re: New Output Power Issue

In reply to this post by Jack Berry

I don't get this. How is the rig runner implicated? The power doesn't go thru it...DC or RF. So are you saying the drive was insufficient? And if so, how is that not easy to diagnose?

Sent from my iPad
Chuck, KE9UW
(Jack for BMW motorcycles)

On Dec 24, 2012, at 1:13 PM, "Jack Berry" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bet it's the Power Pole connectors, meaning the installation of the connectors. But if it is the RigRunner, West Mountain will take care of it.
>
> Glad you isolated the problem!
>
> On Dec 24, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Ian Kahn - Ham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> So, it looks like I tracked down my low output issue. The problem appears to be with my West Mountain RigRunner, not my K3. A big "thank you" to all who offered guidance on getting this thing tested and troubleshot.
>>
>> Thank you, 73, es Merry Christmas!
>>
>> --Ian
>>
>> Ian Kahn, KM4IK
>> Roswell, GA EM74ua
>> [hidden email]
>> K3 #281, P3 #688
>> HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team
>>
>> On 12/24/2012 12:22 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote:
>>> Might not be a 30W drop, but a matter of calibrations of both the internal wattmeter (there is a menu item to adjust it) and the external wattmeter.
>>>
>>> If the output power is set to 100W and the internal wattmeter is reporting 100W, then the K3 is happy. If in fact the output power is only 70 W (double check if the ATU is bypassed or in line, antenna wiring and chassis connections are tight int he k3 etc), then the K3 wattmeter may need to be calibrated. If that is the case, you need to go to the menu and adjust it. But only do this if you are CERTAIN your external wattmeter is in fact accurate. Once you are certain the K3 wattmeter is reporting within spec, re-run the Tx calibration.
>>>
>>> BTW I think a 2V drop is still excessive. Might be long runs or light gauge wire or ? But that is a separate issue from the wattmeter accuracy.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Lyle KK7P
>>>
>>>> It is highly possible the culprit is my RigRunner, purchased in March of this year. When I took it out of line, the voltage drop went from over 4V on tx to under 2V (13.8V down to about 12V). Current draw is .78 to .82 amps on rx and 19.8 amps on tx. However, while the internal power meter shows 100W, an external meter into a dummy load only shows 70 watts out. The current and voltage readings look normal, according to Rev. D10 of the owner's manual. But I'm still concerned about a 30W drop at the output. Anyone have any other suggestions?
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Chuck, KE9UW

Bruce Beford-2

Re: New Output Power Issue

In reply to this post by Ian Kahn, KM4IK

> I don't get this. How is the rig runner implicated? The power doesn't go
> thru it...DC or RF.

Of course it does- the Rig Runner is a DC power distribution panel.
-Bruce, N1RX

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ke9uw

Re: New Output Power Issue

Oh sorry, I see that. I was thinking of those digital interface boxes.

Sent from my iPhone
Chuck (Jack)

On Dec 24, 2012, at 1:21 PM, "Bruce Beford" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> I don't get this. How is the rig runner implicated? The power doesn't go
>> thru it...DC or RF.
>
> Of course it does- the Rig Runner is a DC power distribution panel.
> -Bruce, N1RX
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Chuck, KE9UW

Bill K9YEQ

Re: New Output Power Issue

In reply to this post by Ian Kahn, KM4IK

Ian,

I would suggest before suspecting anything in between the power supply,
check the voltage and the power supply terminals before tearing into
anything. You already know the transceiver shows load voltage under load.
If the voltage drops low at the supply then you have the culprit. If not,
then go to the next connection and then measure it while transmitting. I had
a voltage drop that I didn't like with the supplied power supply cable and
replaced it with a 10 gauge high quality stranded cable. I took out my
ASTRO Flight current/voltage wattage monitor which had lighter wiring, I
ran my radio connection to my RigRunner and then measured. Voltage and
output much improved. You could start from the rear of the radio, work
toward the power supply, but you at least eliminate it. I do see a
wiring/connector voltage drop at 20 amps draw from 13.5 volts through my
PowerGate battery backup to the RigRunner which shows a voltage on the Astro
Flight, which I use to monitor voltage coming off the rig runner itself, of
~12 v. I get CW output at the K3 of 100 watts out as monitored by the W2.

It also wouldn't hurt to disconnect reconnect all the Andersons if that is
what you are using. Corrosion potential exists for non-soldered connections
especially in humid conditions.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ian Kahn - Ham
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 12:52 PM
To: Lyle Johnson
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Output Power Issue

So, it looks like I tracked down my low output issue. The problem appears
to be with my West Mountain RigRunner, not my K3. A big "thank you" to all
who offered guidance on getting this thing tested and troubleshot.

Thank you, 73, es Merry Christmas!

--Ian

Ian Kahn, KM4IK
Roswell, GA EM74ua
[hidden email]
K3 #281, P3 #688
HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team

On 12/24/2012 12:22 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote:

> Might not be a 30W drop, but a matter of calibrations of both the
> internal wattmeter (there is a menu item to adjust it) and the
> external wattmeter.
>
> If the output power is set to 100W and the internal wattmeter is
> reporting 100W, then the K3 is happy. If in fact the output power is
> only 70 W (double check if the ATU is bypassed or in line, antenna
> wiring and chassis connections are tight int he k3 etc), then the K3
> wattmeter may need to be calibrated. If that is the case, you need to
> go to the menu and adjust it. But only do this if you are CERTAIN
> your external wattmeter is in fact accurate. Once you are certain the
> K3 wattmeter is reporting within spec, re-run the Tx calibration.
>
> BTW I think a 2V drop is still excessive. Might be long runs or light
> gauge wire or ? But that is a separate issue from the wattmeter
> accuracy.
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P
>
>> It is highly possible the culprit is my RigRunner, purchased in March
>> of this year. When I took it out of line, the voltage drop went from
>> over 4V on tx to under 2V (13.8V down to about 12V). Current draw is
>> .78 to .82 amps on rx and 19.8 amps on tx. However, while the
>> internal power meter shows 100W, an external meter into a dummy load
>> only shows 70 watts out. The current and voltage readings look
>> normal, according to Rev. D10 of the owner's manual. But I'm still
>> concerned about a 30W drop at the output. Anyone have any other
>> suggestions?
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bill K9YEQ

Re: New Output Power Issue

Ian,
As a bottom up reader, I see you have plenty of advice already. I would
also like to point out in addition to what I posted below, I had an extra
set of fuses and a Red-Dee connect 45 amp distributor in line with the
battery backup/power supply and this alone added > 1.5v drop. With those
two items out of line, I now see the ~ 12v to my radio and I get out the
full 100 watts from the radio under load. Those two items added an
additional 4 connections or 16 surfaces. If I wanted almost zero drop, I
would take out the RigRunner and put power directly to the radio. This
would drop it further.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill K9YEQ
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 5:26 PM
To: 'Ian Kahn - Ham'
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Output Power Issue

Ian,

I would suggest before suspecting anything in between the power supply,
check the voltage and the power supply terminals before tearing into
anything. You already know the transceiver shows load voltage under load.
If the voltage drops low at the supply then you have the culprit. If not,
then go to the next connection and then measure it while transmitting. I had
a voltage drop that I didn't like with the supplied power supply cable and
replaced it with a 10 gauge high quality stranded cable. I took out my
ASTRO Flight current/voltage wattage monitor which had lighter wiring, I
ran my radio connection to my RigRunner and then measured. Voltage and
output much improved. You could start from the rear of the radio, work
toward the power supply, but you at least eliminate it. I do see a
wiring/connector voltage drop at 20 amps draw from 13.5 volts through my
PowerGate battery backup to the RigRunner which shows a voltage on the Astro
Flight, which I use to monitor voltage coming off the rig runner itself, of
~12 v. I get CW output at the K3 of 100 watts out as monitored by the W2.

It also wouldn't hurt to disconnect reconnect all the Andersons if that is
what you are using. Corrosion potential exists for non-soldered connections
especially in humid conditions.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ian Kahn - Ham
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 12:52 PM
To: Lyle Johnson
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Output Power Issue

So, it looks like I tracked down my low output issue. The problem appears
to be with my West Mountain RigRunner, not my K3. A big "thank you" to all
who offered guidance on getting this thing tested and troubleshot.

Thank you, 73, es Merry Christmas!

--Ian

Ian Kahn, KM4IK
Roswell, GA EM74ua
[hidden email]
K3 #281, P3 #688
HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team

On 12/24/2012 12:22 PM, Lyle Johnson wrote:

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: New Output Power Issue

Despite the potential for voltage drop, I would not forget the fuse at
the power supply end of the wire unless you are certain the power source
has adequate overcurrent protection built in. The blade type fuses with
tight fitting sockets will cause very little voltage drop. If the
connection is not in the milliohm range, connection tightness is to blame.

That fuse is not intended to protect the equipment connected, but is
instead to protect the wire from a short circuit.
Many power supplies do have adequate overcurrent protection - however ---

I hear of instances where this was not in place when the power source is
a battery. In the event of a short at the end of the power cable (or
internal to the cable), a LOT of energy can be available which will have
current sufficient to melt copper conductors of any size and spew molten
metal all over the place - a personnel and a fire hazard.

Low voltage high current power sources can be just as maiming as high
voltage supplies. Please be safe!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Keep all hams healthy and free of
injury in the coming New Year.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/24/2012 7:21 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote:

> Ian,
> As a bottom up reader, I see you have plenty of advice already. I would
> also like to point out in addition to what I posted below, I had an extra
> set of fuses and a Red-Dee connect 45 amp distributor in line with the
> battery backup/power supply and this alone added > 1.5v drop. With those
> two items out of line, I now see the ~ 12v to my radio and I get out the
> full 100 watts from the radio under load. Those two items added an
> additional 4 connections or 16 surfaces. If I wanted almost zero drop, I
> would take out the RigRunner and put power directly to the radio. This
> would drop it further.
>
> 73,
> Bill
>

mcduffie

Re: New Output Power Issue

In reply to this post by alsopb

On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:58:35 -0500, Brian Alsop wrote:

> The first rule in troubleshooting is to unplug everything that isn't
> absolutely necessary to the equipment being diagnosed.
>
> In this case all that would be needed is power, ant/dummy load and the K3.

Absolutely. Make sure you use good quality connectors, cables, etc. If
possible, plug the wattmeter directly into the RF output on the back of
the rig (NOT the tuner or amplifier), using a double male if possible,
and plug the PROPER, good quality dummy load directly into the
wattmeter.

Remember, every connector you go through, loses you fraction of a db.
How many connections, cables, etc., does it take to equal one db of
loss? Not too many. One db is 26%! If you lose 1db getting between
the output port and the load, the load will only see 74W with 100W
output from the transmitter. Something to think about. A typical old
style tuner will lose you around 5 watts or more.

Gary
--
http://ag0n.net
3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
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Richard Fjeld

Re: New Output Power Issue, and a new question

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Good advice! (And a new question)

I haven't followed this too closely until I saw Don mention blade-type automotive fuses. (Not to be confused with the heavier blade-type fuses.)

We use a blade-type automotive fuse at our repeater site. I found the fuse holder melted one day. The fuse blade had slipped to one side of the internal terminal in the molded fuse holder. This caused a resistance connection. It is nearly impossible to tell when the fuse blades are properly inserted into the two terminals.

As the current increased across the resistance the voltage drop increased. The Voltage times the current, produced enough wattage to melt the fuse holder, nearly creating a fire. Thankfully, it burned open.

For Ian's benefit, I made some observations of my K3 for comparison, using my homebrew power distribution lash-up, and the wire used. (Emphasis on the latter) My Astron 35M is a bit light on voltage. Two DVMs show 13.66, and 13.72 Volts at the power supply. The K3 shows 13.6 V at the radio during key up. With key down, the K3 shows 11.9 V, and 15.4+ Amps. The Astron ammeter indicates at least 14 Amps. (I don't see the volt meter vary on the Astron)

***Considering that I have a P3 attached, Does that amperage track with other users?***

(Using simple math, the K3 seems to be very efficient on CW.)

So, in summary, with my PS voltage and wiring lash-up, I am losing 1.7 Volts on key down. It indicates a full 100 Watts at the K3, at my in-line power meter to the dummy load, and also into a service monitor. All tests were done on 75 meters.

Rich, n0ce

P.S. Don mentioned low voltage, high current applications. Accidents can also weld firmly together in those situations. Planning good fuse placement is important.

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Wilhelm
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, December 24, 2012 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Output Power Issue

Despite the potential for voltage drop, I would not forget the fuse at
the power supply end of the wire unless you are certain the power source
has adequate overcurrent protection built in. The blade type fuses with
tight fitting sockets will cause very little voltage drop. If the
connection is not in the milliohm range, connection tightness is to blame.

That fuse is not intended to protect the equipment connected, but is
instead to protect the wire from a short circuit.
Many power supplies do have adequate overcurrent protection - however ---

I hear of instances where this was not in place when the power source is
a battery. In the event of a short at the end of the power cable (or
internal to the cable), a LOT of energy can be available which will have
current sufficient to melt copper conductors of any size and spew molten
metal all over the place - a personnel and a fire hazard.

Low voltage high current power sources can be just as maiming as high
voltage supplies. Please be safe!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Keep all hams healthy and free of
injury in the coming New Year.

73,
Don W3FPR

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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N4CW

Re: New Output Power Issue, and a new question

First of all, regarding a DC power distribution "strip": I used a RigRuner
4009 and found that there was
a significant voltage drop from the power source (Astron RS-35M) to the K3.
Having taken measurements
with a DVM, I concluded that the largest drop was from the distribution
strip to the K3. A simple solution
was to power the K3 from the larger "main" wire pair that fed the
distribution strip.

Then, to satisfy my own curiosity, I made the following meaurements today
using the DVM then I took readings with the internal K3 "meter":

DVM measurements: 13.773 VDC at the RS-35 terminals
13.735 VDC at K3 connector in RX mode
13.599 VDC at K3 connector in TX-Tune mode
(10W out)
12.860 VDC at K3 connector in TX mode
(100W out)

K3 "meter" readings: 13.6 VDC in RX mode
13.1 VDC in TX-Tune mode (10W out)
12.4 VDC in TX mode (100W out)

What's interesting is that the K3 "meter" current indication decreases with
time when I
make the test in TX mode (100W out), starting at about 18.2 Amps or so,
then going down, down,
down to 14.something when I let up on the hand key. I kept the key down
just 15 or 20 seconds,
not wanting to tempt fate!!! Power output stayed at 100W throught the
procedure. Hmmmm....

I'm satisfied with those readings: everything works just fine!
Bert, N4CW

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Richard Fjeld

Re: New Output Power Issue, and a new question

Thanks, Bert (nice call)

I started out to share some info with Ian, and things got interesting at my qth.

Some of your measurements are similar to mine. Here are the details of what I found in case a person is interested:

I used a piece of red/black paired wire from my Astron to my homebrew distribution. Without disconnecting it, I think it looks a size smaller than the wire to the K3. I also looked at the fuse holder (buss type) and the wire on it looks smaller as well. I'm going to replace both with heavier wire.

As for my distribution, I use ground blocks for AC power panels and mount them in plastic outlet boxes. I solder the ends of my wires before I tighten the screws down on them. I am not opposed to bypassing the distribution blocks if need be.

I checked all my manuals for schematics, and finally downloaded them. I printed out the first six pages. I can see that the 12V out jack is not part of the ammeter sensing, so the P3 current can be ignored when using the K3 ammeter.

A couple replies said the current draw will vary by band. That is good to know.

I wonder if you made your measurements on the 75/80 meter band as I did. I'm curious about your mention of the 18 amps tapering down to 14 amps thing.

I need to do as you did and measure the voltage with my DVM at the PS, the distribution blocks, and the K3 terminals.

From your readings, I can tell the voltage drop is not nearly as great as it appeared by the K3 meter. Using the K3 readings, I have 0.5 volt lower than you on key down, and that is acceptable. I should be able to correct that.

And yes, as you said, 'everything works just fine'.

Thanks much,
Rich, n0ce

----- Original Message -----
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Output Power Issue, and a new question

First of all, regarding a DC power distribution "strip": I used a RigRuner
4009 and found that there was
a significant voltage drop from the power source (Astron RS-35M) to the K3.
Having taken measurements
with a DVM, I concluded that the largest drop was from the distribution
strip to the K3. A simple solution
was to power the K3 from the larger "main" wire pair that fed the
distribution strip.

Then, to satisfy my own curiosity, I made the following meaurements today
using the DVM then I took readings with the internal K3 "meter":

DVM measurements: 13.773 VDC at the RS-35 terminals
13.735 VDC at K3 connector in RX mode
13.599 VDC at K3 connector in TX-Tune mode
(10W out)
12.860 VDC at K3 connector in TX mode
(100W out)

K3 "meter" readings: 13.6 VDC in RX mode
13.1 VDC in TX-Tune mode (10W out)
12.4 VDC in TX mode (100W out)

What's interesting is that the K3 "meter" current indication decreases with
time when I
make the test in TX mode (100W out), starting at about 18.2 Amps or so,
then going down, down,
down to 14.something when I let up on the hand key. I kept the key down
just 15 or 20 seconds,
not wanting to tempt fate!!! Power output stayed at 100W throught the
procedure. Hmmmm....

I'm satisfied with those readings: everything works just fine!
Bert, N4CW

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Bill Steffey NY9H

Re: New Output Power Issue, and a new question

>
>I used a piece of red/black paired wire ......

prompts me to mention that just because it says it is 10 gauge or 12
or whatever gauge ....
take a good look before you buy that spool...i have bought
stuff red/black that was NOT as printed on the spool or the
wire..... and as you might guess it was too small diameter.....

I keep some standards... and a wire gauge..
( I love the hamfest vendors that label that stuff 12 "guage",,,,

bill

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: New Output Power Issue, and a new question

In reply to this post by Richard Fjeld

Not a problem if you buy from reputable dealers, My preferences are The
Wireman and RF Parts Connection.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/26/2012 8:12 PM, bill ny9h wrote:

>
>>
>> I used a piece of red/black paired wire ......
>
>
> prompts me to mention that just because it says it is 10 gauge or 12
> or whatever gauge ....
> take a good look before you buy that spool...i have bought stuff
> red/black that was NOT as printed on the spool or the wire..... and as
> you might guess it was too small diameter.....
>
> I keep some standards... and a wire gauge..
> ( I love the hamfest vendors that label that stuff 12 "guage",,,,

Richard Fjeld

Re: New Output Power Issue, and a new question

In reply to this post by Richard Fjeld

***Correction; make that voltage readings instead of 'ammeter readings'***

Yes, the outside insulation diameter looks the same as the K3 wire, but I can see a difference in the wire size. It was a piece I had. There are no markings.

I now live rural. I can buy single 10 ga. black and red locally that I trust. I will put both in my cordless drill and twist them.

I want to have a second person to operate the key when I use a DVM. Bert's K3 ammeter readings were very similar to mine, and spot-on at key up. If you followed those readings, you know what that indicates!

Rich, n0ce

----- Original Message -----
From: bill ny9h
To: Richard Fjeld ; [hidden email]
Cc: elecraft posting
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2012 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Output Power Issue, and a new question

>
>I used a piece of red/black paired wire ......

prompts me to mention that just because it says it is 10 gauge or 12
or whatever gauge ....
take a good look before you buy that spool...i have bought
stuff red/black that was NOT as printed on the spool or the
wire..... and as you might guess it was too small diameter.....

I keep some standards... and a wire gauge..
( I love the hamfest vendors that label that stuff 12 "guage",,,,

bill

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Richard Fjeld

Re: New Output Power Issue, and a new question

In reply to this post by Richard Fjeld

Don, thanks for your reply and your concern;

No, the section of wire that I need to replace is from the PS to the distribution blocks.

That section of wire now appears to be one size smaller than the K3 wire. It should be equal, or larger. The present wire length may not make much difference in resistance, but I don't want an impairment to exist.

I'm CC'ing this to the group to clear up any mis-understanding.

While I have the band width, Bert n4cw mentioned fuses/holders can be a source of voltage drop. He is so right. On a former job, we routinely looked for voltage drop across our large fuses during normal use.

Thanks again,

Rich, n0ce

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Wilhelm
To: Richard Fjeld
Cc: bill ny9h
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New Output Power Issue, and a new question

Rich,

The 10 ga. wire is too large to fit into the APP connectors supplied by Elecraft. Either use 12 ga. or if the run is long, use the 10 ga. and get APP connectors that fit it.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/27/2012 10:50 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote:

Yes, the outside insulation diameter looks the same as the K3 wire, but I can see a difference in the wire size. It was a piece I had. There are no markings.

I now live rural. I can buy single 10 ga. black and red locally that I trust. I will put both in my cordless drill and twist them.

I want to have a second person to operate the key when I use a DVM. Bert's K3 ammeter readings were very similar to mine, and spot-on at key up. If you followed those readings, you know what that indicates!

Rich, n0ce

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Ian Kahn, KM4IK

Re: New Output Power Issue

In reply to this post by mcduffie

So, several weeks after originally starting this thread, I finally had
time this evening to sit down and take some voltage and current
measurements. I used my Astron SS-30 power supply connected to the 40A
DC-in port on my Rigrunner. I then ran the Elecraft power cord from a
25A port on the Rigrunner into the 12V DC-in on the back of the K3.
Everything measures 13.8V in standy/rx, all the way to the reading on
the K3 display, with the K3 showing .82A current draw in rxv. I would
measure the power at the 12V in port on the K3, but can't see a way to
get the probes into the powerpole connectors without damaging anything.
I ran my tests using FSK-D at 100W and into a known-good 300W dummy
load, so I could get 100% duty cycle for a few seconds with each
transmit. When I go to transmit, voltage on every band looks good, with
the voltage dropping from 13.8V to anywhere from 12.1 to 12.4 volts.
I'm concerned about some of the current readings, however. 80 meters
shows a current draw of 15.80A; 17 meters shows a draw of 16.35A; 15
meters shows a draw of 16.40A; 10 meters shows a draw of 12.93A. 12m,
20m, 30m, 40m, and 160m are all within the 17-22A current draw rating
for the K3. The RF output meter on the K3 shows 100w out on every band,
but I haven't put the rig on an external watt meter. Since these are
all below the nominal current draw given in the K3 owner's manual
(17-22A), is there something I should look at recalibrating? Or could
something more serious be going here that I need to be concerned about?
Or, am I worried about nothing? Further guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thank you and 73,

--Ian

Ian Kahn, KM4IK
Roswell, GA EM74ua
[hidden email]
K3 #281, P3 #688
HRD v5.x/6.0 Test Team

On 12/25/2012 11:52 AM, AG0N-3055 wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:58:35 -0500, Brian Alsop wrote:
>
>> The first rule in troubleshooting is to unplug everything that isn't
>> absolutely necessary to the equipment being diagnosed.
>>
>> In this case all that would be needed is power, ant/dummy load and the K3.
> Absolutely. Make sure you use good quality connectors, cables, etc. If
> possible, plug the wattmeter directly into the RF output on the back of
> the rig (NOT the tuner or amplifier), using a double male if possible,
> and plug the PROPER, good quality dummy load directly into the
> wattmeter.
>
> Remember, every connector you go through, loses you fraction of a db.
> How many connections, cables, etc., does it take to equal one db of
> loss? Not too many. One db is 26%! If you lose 1db getting between
> the output port and the load, the load will only see 74W with 100W
> output from the transmitter. Something to think about. A typical old
> style tuner will lose you around 5 watts or more.
>
> Gary

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: New Output Power Issue

Ian,

So your K3 is operating a bit more efficiently than average - what is to
be worried about, be glad.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/10/2013 10:23 PM, Ian Kahn - Ham wrote:

> So, several weeks after originally starting this thread, I finally had
> time this evening to sit down and take some voltage and current
> measurements. I used my Astron SS-30 power supply connected to the
> 40A DC-in port on my Rigrunner. I then ran the Elecraft power cord
> from a 25A port on the Rigrunner into the 12V DC-in on the back of the
> K3. Everything measures 13.8V in standy/rx, all the way to the reading
> on the K3 display, with the K3 showing .82A current draw in rxv. I
> would measure the power at the 12V in port on the K3, but can't see a
> way to get the probes into the powerpole connectors without damaging
> anything. I ran my tests using FSK-D at 100W and into a known-good
> 300W dummy load, so I could get 100% duty cycle for a few seconds
> with each transmit. When I go to transmit, voltage on every band looks
> good, with the voltage dropping from 13.8V to anywhere from 12.1 to
> 12.4 volts. I'm concerned about some of the current readings,
> however. 80 meters shows a current draw of 15.80A; 17 meters shows a
> draw of 16.35A; 15 meters shows a draw of 16.40A; 10 meters shows a
> draw of 12.93A. 12m, 20m, 30m, 40m, and 160m are all within the
> 17-22A current draw rating for the K3. The RF output meter on the K3
> shows 100w out on every band, but I haven't put the rig on an external
> watt meter. Since these are all below the nominal current draw given
> in the K3 owner's manual (17-22A), is there something I should look at
> recalibrating? Or could something more serious be going here that I
> need to be concerned about? Or, am I worried about nothing? Further
> guidance is greatly appreciated.
>

123