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New product idea for Elecraft...?

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Bill K9YEQ

Re: New product idea for Elecraft...?

You probably know the manual is viewable on line. When I order something, I read and reread. There is more than I can remember. But I do remember some of the major settings and those that appeal to me.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 4:35 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New product idea for Elecraft...?

One other point is the hams mentality ; "I've operated hundreds of ham radios and I know how this one works". HA! Better read the dang manual two or three times. Also the Fred Cady, KE7X has a wealth of information not included in the standard Elecraft K3S Owner's Manual.

Regarding manuals, I've often thought when a person orders a new radio, the manual should be shipped some 2 or 3 weeks to the buyer in advance, before the radio ships. Perhaps this would encourage one to learn a bit more about the radio, as opposed to taking it out of the box, connecting a few cables and start turning knobs and pushing buttons. Then they
exclaim: "uh, where did I put that manual because this dang thing doesn't work."

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 9/28/2017 4:16 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:

> Dave, W7AQK is absolutely right. Many of my early problems with the K3
> came from pushing a button without looking at the radio.
>
> It also helps to learn what each of the items displayed on the panel
> means, even the ones you don't think you need to know about. You may
> have accidentally changed one an shot yourself in the foot.
>
> My last serious case of transmit on the DX frequency came because my
> P3/SVGA display for the 2nd VFO looked red, even though I wasn't in
> split. The P3 colors were much clearer, but I didn't look at the P3.
> Another ham called me on the telephone to inform me of the error of my
> ways. (Thanks!) Now I check the delta-F light and the SVGA.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> On 9/28/17 at 10:16 AM, [hidden email] (dyarnes) wrote:
>
>> However, if you reach for a knob or a button on any of these rigs,
>> you better be paying attention! I think most operator errors are due
>> to just that, and not to design issues. If something on your K3
>> doesn’t sound or act right, take a good, hard look at your display
>> and panel indicators. The answer is probably right there in front of
>> you! How many times have we seen a response like ‘Are you on antenna
>> 1 or antenna 2?”
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --- Bill Frantz        | The first thing you need when | Periwinkle
> (408)356-8506      | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood
> Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter.                     | Los Gatos,
> CA 95032
>
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>
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: New product idea for Elecraft...?

Yes, actually before I ordered my K3S I went on line and printed a full copy. This helped me make my decision on the choice of options. I ordered the radio and while waiting, I read and re-read the manual. After 18 mos or so of using the radio, very satisfactorily I might add, I ordered the Fred Cady book and have learned a lot more.

All the hours reading and studying have been very worthwhile. I highly suggest others do the same.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 28, 2017, at 4:56 PM, Bill Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You probably know the manual is viewable on line. When I order something, I read and reread. There is more than I can remember. But I do remember some of the major settings and those that appeal to me.
>
> 73,
> Bill
> K9YEQ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 4:35 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New product idea for Elecraft...?
>
> One other point is the hams mentality ; "I've operated hundreds of ham radios and I know how this one works". HA! Better read the dang manual two or three times. Also the Fred Cady, KE7X has a wealth of information not included in the standard Elecraft K3S Owner's Manual.
>
> Regarding manuals, I've often thought when a person orders a new radio, the manual should be shipped some 2 or 3 weeks to the buyer in advance, before the radio ships. Perhaps this would encourage one to learn a bit more about the radio, as opposed to taking it out of the box, connecting a few cables and start turning knobs and pushing buttons. Then they
> exclaim: "uh, where did I put that manual because this dang thing doesn't work."
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>> On 9/28/2017 4:16 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>> Dave, W7AQK is absolutely right. Many of my early problems with the K3
>> came from pushing a button without looking at the radio.
>>
>> It also helps to learn what each of the items displayed on the panel
>> means, even the ones you don't think you need to know about. You may
>> have accidentally changed one an shot yourself in the foot.
>>
>> My last serious case of transmit on the DX frequency came because my
>> P3/SVGA display for the 2nd VFO looked red, even though I wasn't in
>> split. The P3 colors were much clearer, but I didn't look at the P3.
>> Another ham called me on the telephone to inform me of the error of my
>> ways. (Thanks!) Now I check the delta-F light and the SVGA.
>>
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>
>>> On 9/28/17 at 10:16 AM, [hidden email] (dyarnes) wrote:
>>>
>>> However, if you reach for a knob or a button on any of these rigs,
>>> you better be paying attention! I think most operator errors are due
>>> to just that, and not to design issues. If something on your K3
>>> doesn’t sound or act right, take a good, hard look at your display
>>> and panel indicators. The answer is probably right there in front of
>>> you! How many times have we seen a response like ‘Are you on antenna
>>> 1 or antenna 2?”
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --- Bill Frantz | The first thing you need when | Periwinkle
>> (408)356-8506 | using a perimeter defense is a | 16345 Englewood
>> Ave www.pwpconsult.com | perimeter. | Los Gatos,
>> CA 95032
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]

Drew AF2Z

Re: New product idea for Elecraft...?

In reply to this post by w7aqk

One of the limitations of a compact rig is that the state of a
particular control or button is often displayed in another location on
the panel far from the button location itself.

In typical use you search for the control's indicator somewhere on the
display screen in order to check its status (say AGC-S, AGC-F, etc);
then search elsewhere for the control; then back to the indicator to
watch it while you operate the control/button.

You aren't really conscious of all the extra mental gymnastics you go
through zigzagging your attention back and forth, but it's one reason
why a boat anchor is more satisfying to operate-- not simply fewer
controls, but the controls are self indicating or directly adjacent to
meters, pilot lamps, etc.

Dislocating the status indicators from the controls also makes learning
to operate the rig more difficult initially and probably leads to
recurring errors like SPLIT.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On 09/28/17 13:16, dyarnes wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I generally am pretty reticent to take issue with my “Tucson Compadre” West, N7WS, as he most often is making very good points. However, I think he exaggerates a bit (perhaps intentionally) in attributing so much of the split operation error to K3 owners. There are a lot of us, but not even remotely close to being that many of us!! I tend to attribute that error, more than anything, to the lost art of “mentoring”. Too many hams these days have never been effectively schooled in proper/normal operating procedures, and have no clue as to the meaning of the simple term “UP”!
>
> Admittedly, there have been occasions when I was guilty of the sin mentioned, but only momentarily. The K3 does have the “delta F” light to warn you, and the display does indicate “split”. I do wish both were more obvious. Externally it looks like there might have been sufficient room to make both of those LED’s bigger and brighter. The “split” indicator on the LCD could be bigger as well! That would be a very good enhancement. Is that possible through firmware?
>
> If there is a problem with the K3, I think it can be attributed to the trade-off between rig size and display size. I, for one, am happy with a smaller piece of gear on my desk, but I must admit that some of the display info is pretty difficult for these old eyes to see clearly.
>
> I’m inclined to agree with those who don’t feel the K3 requires an inordinate amount of menu accessing. I think Elecraft did a marvelous job of putting most needed adjustments right on the front panel. I have had a much bigger problem in this respect with other rig brands. Of course, the urge to make rigs smaller caused much of this, but even some very big rigs have this problem. The Ten-Tec Orion II is a good example. It has a big, beautiful display, and lots of panel space, but still you need to make several button pushes to make very commonly needed changes like power level and keyer speed. Both of these are instant adjustments on the K3’s front panel.
>
> Most rigs these days are fairly complex and versatile. Some are unduly complex or convoluted, but I don’t think that applies to the K3. However, if you reach for a knob or a button on any of these rigs, you better be paying attention! I think most operator errors are due to just that, and not to design issues. If something on your K3 doesn’t sound or act right, take a good, hard look at your display and panel indicators. The answer is probably right there in front of you! How many times have we seen a response like ‘Are you on antenna 1 or antenna 2?”
>
> Dave W7AQK
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> From: Wes Stewart <[hidden email]>
>
> Have you never turned on VOX when you meant to change bands? Or set up VFO A and
> B to split frequencies and then accidentally (and unknowingly) written A to B
> when you tried to turn on Split?? Your Split indicator gives you comfort but
> you're still transmitting on the DX.? Probably half the, "He's split you moron"
> comments in pileups are directed at K3 owners. And don't even get me started
> about memory management.
>
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>

Jim Brown-10

Re: New product idea for Elecraft...?

On 9/28/2017 9:05 PM, Drew AF2Z wrote:
> One of the limitations of a compact rig is that the state of a
> particular control or button is often displayed in another location on
> the panel far from the button location itself.

Gee -- every time I buy (or otherwise need to use) a new product, I
RTFM. As a result, I've never had any problem with knowing how the K3
works and getting it to do what I want it to do. And I never bother with
FAQs, which are written either for users who have never RTFM, or who
don't know much about the functions for which the product is designed,
or for products for which the manual is so bad that everyone has
questions. :)

I'll be 76 years old in a few weeks, and I've been a ham for 62 years.
I've owned and/or used dozens of radios over the years. I find the
design and user interface of the K3 series of radios VERY well thought
out and both the front panel controls and the display quite logical. But
then, I RTFM.

Another thing -- a K3 is pretty easy to pack as a carry-on -- W0YK
carries two of them in the passenger compartment for DX and contest
trips! Try carrying on ONE of those big boat rigs.

73, Jim K9YC

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kstover

Re: New product idea for Elecraft...?

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Totally agree Bob.

It's the "Real Radio Man" arrogance that kicks in with a new radio.

As for the button/knobs vs. menu's argument, what is the difference
between a button or knob on the face of the rig that gets adjusted once
and never touched again and a making the same change with a menu?

There is no difference in functionality.

Maybe it's that the higher button and knob count increases the machismo?
"I, a Real Radio Man, can operate this radio that looks like a 707
cockpit" (caveman grunting and chest thumping ensues), and it will
really impress the neighbors.

Possibly people don't know how to set the rig up and have to fiddle with
it continuously? Knobs and buttons do make fiddling easier. They do not
change the fact that you do not know the radio or how to set it up.

The days of the 70lb Samsonite sized rig with 100+ knobs and buttons
(TS-990S) are over Real Radio Men.

On 9/28/2017 4:35 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> One other point is the hams mentality ; "I've operated hundreds of ham
> radios and I know how this one works". HA! Better read the dang
> manual two or three times. Also the Fred Cady, KE7X has a wealth of
> information not included in the standard Elecraft K3S Owner's Manual.
>
> Regarding manuals, I've often thought when a person orders a new radio,
> the manual should be shipped some 2 or 3 weeks to the buyer in advance,
> before the radio ships. Perhaps this would encourage one to learn a bit
> more about the radio, as opposed to taking it out of the box, connecting
> a few cables and start turning knobs and pushing buttons. Then they
> exclaim: "uh, where did I put that manual because this dang thing
> doesn't work."
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX

>>
>>

--
R. Kevin Stover AC0H
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441
ARRL
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k4vd

Re: New product idea for Elecraft...?

Wow. Was this some sort of allergic reaction to someone else's opinion?
They make a drug for that.

Now that 70 lb rigs are declared only suitable for people with an
inferiority complex we can all relax in front of our HW-8s knowing that
anyone with a bigger rig doesn't match up to us in areas that really count.

73,
Kev K4VD
K4VD Club #1

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 3:10 PM, Kevin Stover, AC0H <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Totally agree Bob.
>
> It's the "Real Radio Man" arrogance that kicks in with a new radio.
>
> As for the button/knobs vs. menu's argument, what is the difference
> between a button or knob on the face of the rig that gets adjusted once and
> never touched again and a making the same change with a menu?
>
> There is no difference in functionality.
>
> Maybe it's that the higher button and knob count increases the machismo?
> "I, a Real Radio Man, can operate this radio that looks like a 707 cockpit"
> (caveman grunting and chest thumping ensues), and it will really impress
> the neighbors.
>
> Possibly people don't know how to set the rig up and have to fiddle with
> it continuously? Knobs and buttons do make fiddling easier. They do not
> change the fact that you do not know the radio or how to set it up.
>
> The days of the 70lb Samsonite sized rig with 100+ knobs and buttons
> (TS-990S) are over Real Radio Men.
>
>
>
> On 9/28/2017 4:35 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>
>> One other point is the hams mentality ; "I've operated hundreds of ham
>> radios and I know how this one works". HA! Better read the dang manual
>> two or three times. Also the Fred Cady, KE7X has a wealth of information
>> not included in the standard Elecraft K3S Owner's Manual.
>>
>> Regarding manuals, I've often thought when a person orders a new radio,
>> the manual should be shipped some 2 or 3 weeks to the buyer in advance,
>> before the radio ships. Perhaps this would encourage one to learn a bit
>> more about the radio, as opposed to taking it out of the box, connecting a
>> few cables and start turning knobs and pushing buttons. Then they
>> exclaim: "uh, where did I put that manual because this dang thing doesn't
>> work."
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Bob, K4TAX
>>
>
>
>>>
>>>
> --
> R. Kevin Stover AC0H
> FISTS #11993
> SKCC #215
> NAQCC #3441
> ARRL
> ______________________________________________________________
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k6dgw

Re: New product idea for Elecraft...?

In reply to this post by kstover

QKK? "How many knobs does your radio have?"
QKK 146 "My radio has 146 knobs"

QKU? "How many of those do you know how to use"
QKU 2 "I know how to use 2 of them"

QKB? "Would one of those be the Big Knob?"
QKB "Yep"

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 9/30/2017 12:10 PM, Kevin Stover, AC0H wrote:
>
> Maybe it's that the higher button and knob count increases the
> machismo? "I, a Real Radio Man, can operate this radio that looks like
> a 707 cockpit" (caveman grunting and chest thumping ensues), and it
> will really impress the neighbors.
>

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: New product idea for Elecraft...?

It's not how many knobs but......how many knobs does the operator know how to use correctly.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 30, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> QKK? "How many knobs does your radio have?"
> QKK 146 "My radio has 146 knobs"
>
> QKU? "How many of those do you know how to use"
> QKU 2 "I know how to use 2 of them"
>
> QKB? "Would one of those be the Big Knob?"
> QKB "Yep"
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 9/30/2017 12:10 PM, Kevin Stover, AC0H wrote:
>>
>> Maybe it's that the higher button and knob count increases the machismo? "I, a Real Radio Man, can operate this radio that looks like a 707 cockpit" (caveman grunting and chest thumping ensues), and it will really impress the neighbors.
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>