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Buddy Brannan

Re: New products

Of course, touch screens can be made to work, witness the iThingies. But that's an awful lot of complexity. Given that the available resources in current generation Elecraft gear can't even be stretched to include spoken feedback (this is not a criticism, mind you, just a statement of fact), it seems unlikely that such resources would be available just by the addition of a touch screen.

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: [hidden email]

> On Jun 5, 2016, at 5:51 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> An idea just off the top of my head: Put a physical grid over the touch screen so the blind OP can find the buttons. A grid of 2mm x 2mm bars separated into 15-20mm areas might work well. Have the radio speak the status of the button when it is pressed. If you have two-level press sensitivity, like the new Apple MacBooks, then you can use one level as a request to report the status and the other as a request to change the status (press the button). Rectangular areas could be used as sliders for adjustments etc. (Note that for blind usage, you don't need a screen. A touch pad alone will do.
>
> One of the great things about amateur radio is that people with significant handicaps can still play. One of the board members of my club is blind. Other members bring him to meetings, and it is always nice to hear his voice on the air. People who can't hear can still be expert digital operators. etc.
>
> Elecraft is to be applauded for their commitment to accessibility.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> On 6/5/16 at 12:37 PM, [hidden email] (Don Wilhelm) wrote:
>
>> Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for blind operators.
>> Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios with those blind operators particularly in mind.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz |The nice thing about standards| Periwinkle
> (408)356-8506 |is there are so many to choose| 16345 Englewood Ave
> www.pwpconsult.com |from. - Andrew Tanenbaum | Los Gatos, CA 95032
>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: New products

In reply to this post by dennis rosenbalm

Knobs and and switches provide the illusion of control…and that my friends, is what life is all about 8^) Elecraft
does a great job of giving us what we need while giving us what we want….which is the exception the Rolling
Stones would accept...

Alan/K6ADG
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Gary Gregory-2

Re: New products

In reply to this post by Ken G Kopp

Ken,
Nope, me neither.
I am portabe 24/7, so is my not so smart screen phone, when in daylight the touch screen is useless.
The sunlight shines on my k3 and I don't have any issue so using a touch screen would be an order of magnitude I ain't gonna deal with.
Maybe a K3-TS?...a remote touch screen app with full k3 control?
It's just not gonna happen in my case.
My K3 is approaching adolescence, gee what a wonderful time we are still having daily on air.
Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ken G Kopp" <[hidden email]>
Sent: ‎6/‎06/‎2016 8:33 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

I'll not be buying a radio with any form of "touch screen" ... ain't gonna
happen. (:-))

73

K0PP
On Jun 5, 2016 13:16, "Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future
> upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things on and
> off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally released.
>
> Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more flexible
> than a silk-screened metal panel.
>
> I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's really
> time to lighten up, folks.
>
> Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of "empty"
> buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the firmware grows
> to need them.
>
> On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
>
>> Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the touch
>> screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch
>>
>
>
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John Pitz

Re: New products

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

Thus is born the KXi

On Sun, 2016-06-05 at 11:48 -0700, Phil Wheeler wrote:

> Good discussion, Tony.
>
> Re "If my fantasy radio was developed it would be
> quantum based system that would allow you call
> through other dimensions over vast distances with
> out any propagation delay." I'd settle for an
> advancement which let me work you from California
> running 5 Watts to a one meter indoor antenna and
> no counterpoise -- during the low part of the
> sunspot cycle :-)
>
> 73, Phil W7OX
>
> On 6/5/16 11:28 AM, Tony G6GLP wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > I thought I might put my oar in on this; New
> > products need a market is true and trying to
> > second guess it is another story.
> >
> > How would I go about developing a new product? I
> > believe that we need to see a gap in the market
> > since we are not going to create a new market
> > like texting. The size of the addressable
> > customer base needs to be large enough to
> > support the development cost. One thing that
> > many people see as improvement is the touch
> > screen, while I support development in this area
> > it is not core functionality to our hobby (can I
> > see the flack coming on that?). The KX2 and
> > K-POD are good examples of pushing the new
> > product while building on current development (
> > no I dont have an inside view of the products
> > but it stands to reason). Who was it that said
> > there are many Japanese VHF txcvrs? The latest
> > trend is into the digital coms so something in
> > that area maybe the next thing but I would
> > recommend an open source approach to the digital
> > coms to get others helping with the future
> > development of repeater type multi channel things.
> > I would personally be more interested in an
> > integrated larger HF amp or even a combiner to
> > use say three KPA500 to achieve the higher output.
> > If my fantasy radio was developed it would be
> > quantum based system that would allow you call
> > through other dimensions over vast distances
> > with out any propagation delay. Maybe in a few
> > thousand years :-)
> >
> > 73 de Tony G6GLP
>
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Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: New products

In reply to this post by Jim Finan

For contesters, K Pod vs. touchscreen is matter of thousands of repetitive
movements during a contest. And if one must move one's hands away from a
keyboard, what movement is the most accurate time after time, and is there
a resting spot for the base of the hand to support the weight of the arm so
that is not on the arm muscles the entire time.

There is a strip of desk between me and my left-handed trackball, my left
and right hand keyboard and right hand keyer paddle to rest wrist or hand
so my arms do not get so tired. I have arms on my chair which support my
elbows at desk height. That means going qso to qso without repetitive
effort to raise my arms. I can get to everything qso-to qso repetitive with
horizontal arc, supported side-to-side movement. The touch screen
implementations I have seen involve raising arms and free, unsupported
touching well above the desk surface. Hand and arm musculature must be
accurate to accomplish tasks.

The KPod is possibly a replacement for the seven far right columns of keys
on my Logitech K750 solar wireless keyboard. That being the case, one of
the "mini" keyboards would do and the KPod fit in the vacated space.

I will be reading about the KPod carefully now, and thinking. It's tempting.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Looking at the K-POD functionality, it seems to me that the future is
> modular.
>
> Already rigs like the K3 have an RF section, a control section, a signal
> processing section and an I/O section that are largely on separate boards
> in separate parts of the rig. And then there is the display section which
> is a separate box such as the P3, PX3 or even a PC.
>
> Except for the extremely compact rigs, it seems to me the future will
> bring increased options that can be plugged into each other according to
> the operator's interests and needs. Even highly compact rigs may find
> features such as frequency, spectrum, settings and other such items on
> wearable displays like glasses or on a Braille readout. Couple in an earwig
> mic/headphone and a smartphone size device that handles logging and I can
> imagine someone sitting on a park bench staring off into space saying "CQ
> Contest, CQ Contest, CQ Contes...".
>
> A few years ago such a scene would have people calling the guys with the
> funny white jackets but today I doubt if most people would even notice.
>
> (BTW, sri about the K-NOB reference. That somehow slipped off of my
> fingers unnoticed until Dick caught it. The little box does have a big
> knob!)
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
>
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Jerry Moore

Re: New products

In reply to this post by Jerry Moore

Oh,, and I wanted to point out that if you are using a computer with CAT then most software packages allow you to operate with keyboard shortcuts to QSY, tune up, tune down, change modes, filters..etc.. all up to your imagination depending on the software and your needs.
Jer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jerry Moore
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 5:05 PM
To: John; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

Adding $100 or more to add a touchscreen ui to a radio provides very little value in my view, is silly. The radio cost to value ratio is very low (meaning the value is high). The only exception I can see would be integrating the P3 as an option (hopefully enhancing with a micro computer/ssd for logging, digital, extended macros...etc, basically what I'm doing now with a raspberry pi).

So that is if the cost is comparable to getting the P3.

Without the features of the P3 integrated; who changes settings so often that the included programmable macro buttons aren't enough?

On June 5, 2016 4:35:26 PM EDT, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ha, Elecraft needs to progress at some stage, or get left behind.

Touch screen UI is and has been extensively used - 3 billion touch screen smart phones
out there, 1.2 billion touch screen tablets. I can see you all reaching for your keyboards
to protest that phones and tablets are not the same thing. Well, touch screen UI have
also moved over to commercial products, the military and airline pilots also use touch screen
UI communication devices. If they are good enough to be used on commercial aircraft
and in military applications, then it sure is good enough for ham radio.
Touch screen UI panels having become so prolific, that they have dropped the cost enormously,
resolution is picture sharp and reliability is extremely good.
Touch screens have huge potential, and almost unlimited versatility. If you need more knobs
or buttons on your rig, due to new features having been added……no problem with a touch screen.
Just a firmware update to add a knob, button, slider or meter onto the screen.
The problem with conventional rigs, is you run out of physical knobs and buttons when features
are added to the radio. I see this in my KX3 - some knobs have three functions, and to try and
remember what each knobs second or third function does, becomes difficult.

Food for thought :-)

73
John

On 5 Jun 2016, at 10:13 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:

Don,

I suspect that having redesigned a rig with touch screen
capability the manufacturer would, in a short period of time realize
the error of their ways. Hopfully they would still have enough
capital to revert to the original design and fire the person
responsible for the change.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:37:42 -0400, you wrote:
Lynn,

Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for
blind operators.
Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios
with those blind operators particularly in mind.
A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/5/2016 3:16 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future
upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things
on and off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally
released.

Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more
flexible than a silk-screened metal panel.

I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's
really time to lighten up, folks.

Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of
"empty" buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the
firmware grows to need them.

On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the
touch screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch

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--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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K5HM

Re: New products

I have a new car with Touchscreen controls. When the engine is off, I see all the finger marks. Ugh. No touchscreen for me.

73,
Ron, K5HM
[hidden email]
www.qrz.com/db/k5hm

Excelsior!

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jerry More
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 9:06 PM
To: John <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

Oh,, and I wanted to point out that if you are using a computer with CAT then most software packages allow you to operate with keyboard shortcuts to QSY, tune up, tune down, change modes, filters..etc.. all up to your imagination depending on the software and your needs.
Jer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jerry Moore
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 5:05 PM
To: John; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

Adding $100 or more to add a touchscreen ui to a radio provides very little value in my view, is silly. The radio cost to value ratio is very low (meaning the value is high). The only exception I can see would be integrating the P3 as an option (hopefully enhancing with a micro computer/ssd for logging, digital, extended macros...etc, basically what I'm doing now with a raspberry pi).

So that is if the cost is comparable to getting the P3.

Without the features of the P3 integrated; who changes settings so often that the included programmable macro buttons aren't enough?

On June 5, 2016 4:35:26 PM EDT, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ha, Elecraft needs to progress at some stage, or get left behind.

Touch screen UI is and has been extensively used - 3 billion touch screen smart phones out there, 1.2 billion touch screen tablets. I can see you all reaching for your keyboards to protest that phones and tablets are not the same thing. Well, touch screen UI have also moved over to commercial products, the military and airline pilots also use touch screen UI communication devices. If they are good enough to be used on commercial aircraft and in military applications, then it sure is good enough for ham radio.
Touch screen UI panels having become so prolific, that they have dropped the cost enormously, resolution is picture sharp and reliability is extremely good.
Touch screens have huge potential, and almost unlimited versatility. If you need more knobs or buttons on your rig, due to new features having been added……no problem with a touch screen.
Just a firmware update to add a knob, button, slider or meter onto the screen.
The problem with conventional rigs, is you run out of physical knobs and buttons when features are added to the radio. I see this in my KX3 - some knobs have three functions, and to try and remember what each knobs second or third function does, becomes difficult.

Food for thought :-)

73
John

On 5 Jun 2016, at 10:13 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:

Don,

I suspect that having redesigned a rig with touch screen capability the manufacturer would, in a short period of time realize the error of their ways. Hopfully they would still have enough capital to revert to the original design and fire the person responsible for the change.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:37:42 -0400, you wrote:
Lynn,

Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for blind operators.
Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios with those blind operators particularly in mind.
A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/5/2016 3:16 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things on and off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally released.

Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more flexible than a silk-screened metal panel.

I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's really time to lighten up, folks.

Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of "empty" buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the firmware grows to need them.

On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the touch screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch

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a45wg-2

Re: New products

In reply to this post by Jerry Moore

Interesting set of topics -

I decided to go for the Elecraft route for the simple reason I hoped their superior RX capabilities would help me make more QSO’s. I have not been disappointed.

I did not care about touch this or button that. A radio should primarily be for sending and receiving - what else is added is extra;

73s to all

Tim - A45WG

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John Kramer

Re: New products

In reply to this post by K5HM

I have been using an IC-7300 with touchscreen for 2 months now. I have yet to wipe the screen, I see
no fingerprints. Billions of iPhones, tablets and GPS units use a touchscreen without complaint. Look,
I think it will be a long long time before Elecraft ever get to consider it, but I think it will be inevitable
one day. Contact me in 10 years time, and tell me ‘I told you so’, if it does not happen :-)

73
John

On 6 Jun 2016, at 4:50 AM, K5HM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I have a new car with Touchscreen controls. When the engine is off, I see all the finger marks. Ugh. No touchscreen for me.

73,
Ron, K5HM
[hidden email]
www.qrz.com/db/k5hm

Excelsior!

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jerry More
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 9:06 PM
To: John <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

Oh,, and I wanted to point out that if you are using a computer with CAT then most software packages allow you to operate with keyboard shortcuts to QSY, tune up, tune down, change modes, filters..etc.. all up to your imagination depending on the software and your needs.
Jer

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jerry Moore
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 5:05 PM
To: John; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

Adding $100 or more to add a touchscreen ui to a radio provides very little value in my view, is silly. The radio cost to value ratio is very low (meaning the value is high). The only exception I can see would be integrating the P3 as an option (hopefully enhancing with a micro computer/ssd for logging, digital, extended macros...etc, basically what I'm doing now with a raspberry pi).

So that is if the cost is comparable to getting the P3.

Without the features of the P3 integrated; who changes settings so often that the included programmable macro buttons aren't enough?

On June 5, 2016 4:35:26 PM EDT, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ha, Elecraft needs to progress at some stage, or get left behind.

Touch screen UI is and has been extensively used - 3 billion touch screen smart phones out there, 1.2 billion touch screen tablets. I can see you all reaching for your keyboards to protest that phones and tablets are not the same thing. Well, touch screen UI have also moved over to commercial products, the military and airline pilots also use touch screen UI communication devices. If they are good enough to be used on commercial aircraft and in military applications, then it sure is good enough for ham radio.
Touch screen UI panels having become so prolific, that they have dropped the cost enormously, resolution is picture sharp and reliability is extremely good.
Touch screens have huge potential, and almost unlimited versatility. If you need more knobs or buttons on your rig, due to new features having been added……no problem with a touch screen.
Just a firmware update to add a knob, button, slider or meter onto the screen.
The problem with conventional rigs, is you run out of physical knobs and buttons when features are added to the radio. I see this in my KX3 - some knobs have three functions, and to try and remember what each knobs second or third function does, becomes difficult.

Food for thought :-)

73
John

On 5 Jun 2016, at 10:13 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:

Don,

I suspect that having redesigned a rig with touch screen capability the manufacturer would, in a short period of time realize the error of their ways. Hopfully they would still have enough capital to revert to the original design and fire the person responsible for the change.

On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:37:42 -0400, you wrote:
Lynn,

Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for blind operators.
Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios with those blind operators particularly in mind.
A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/5/2016 3:16 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things on and off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally released.

Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more flexible than a silk-screened metal panel.

I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's really time to lighten up, folks.

Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of "empty" buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the firmware grows to need them.

On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the touch screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch

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Bob Nielsen-4

Re: New products

It's easy to clean a touchscreen with a microfiber cloth (and a very
small amount of eyeglass cleaner or water if needed).

The touchscreen on my IC-7100 failed after nearly a year (Icom replaced
a decoder board under warranty) but this is not a normal occurrence and
the screen itself was not affected.

73,
Bob N7XY

On 6/5/16 10:32 PM, John wrote:

> I have been using an IC-7300 with touchscreen for 2 months now. I have yet to wipe the screen, I see
> no fingerprints. Billions of iPhones, tablets and GPS units use a touchscreen without complaint. Look,
> I think it will be a long long time before Elecraft ever get to consider it, but I think it will be inevitable
> one day. Contact me in 10 years time, and tell me ‘I told you so’, if it does not happen :-)
>
> 73
> John
>
>
>
>
> On 6 Jun 2016, at 4:50 AM, K5HM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have a new car with Touchscreen controls. When the engine is off, I see all the finger marks. Ugh. No touchscreen for me.
>
> 73,
> Ron, K5HM
> [hidden email]
> www.qrz.com/db/k5hm
>
> Excelsior!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jerry More
> Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 9:06 PM
> To: John <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products
>
> Oh,, and I wanted to point out that if you are using a computer with CAT then most software packages allow you to operate with keyboard shortcuts to QSY, tune up, tune down, change modes, filters..etc.. all up to your imagination depending on the software and your needs.
> Jer
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Jerry Moore
> Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 5:05 PM
> To: John; [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products
>
> Adding $100 or more to add a touchscreen ui to a radio provides very little value in my view, is silly. The radio cost to value ratio is very low (meaning the value is high). The only exception I can see would be integrating the P3 as an option (hopefully enhancing with a micro computer/ssd for logging, digital, extended macros...etc, basically what I'm doing now with a raspberry pi).
>
> So that is if the cost is comparable to getting the P3.
>
> Without the features of the P3 integrated; who changes settings so often that the included programmable macro buttons aren't enough?
>
> On June 5, 2016 4:35:26 PM EDT, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ha, Elecraft needs to progress at some stage, or get left behind.
>
> Touch screen UI is and has been extensively used - 3 billion touch screen smart phones out there, 1.2 billion touch screen tablets. I can see you all reaching for your keyboards to protest that phones and tablets are not the same thing. Well, touch screen UI have also moved over to commercial products, the military and airline pilots also use touch screen UI communication devices. If they are good enough to be used on commercial aircraft and in military applications, then it sure is good enough for ham radio.
> Touch screen UI panels having become so prolific, that they have dropped the cost enormously, resolution is picture sharp and reliability is extremely good.
> Touch screens have huge potential, and almost unlimited versatility. If you need more knobs or buttons on your rig, due to new features having been added……no problem with a touch screen.
> Just a firmware update to add a knob, button, slider or meter onto the screen.
> The problem with conventional rigs, is you run out of physical knobs and buttons when features are added to the radio. I see this in my KX3 - some knobs have three functions, and to try and remember what each knobs second or third function does, becomes difficult.
>
> Food for thought :-)
>
> 73
> John
>
>
>
>
> On 5 Jun 2016, at 10:13 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> I suspect that having redesigned a rig with touch screen capability the manufacturer would, in a short period of time realize the error of their ways. Hopfully they would still have enough capital to revert to the original design and fire the person responsible for the change.
>
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:37:42 -0400, you wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for blind operators.
> Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios with those blind operators particularly in mind.
> A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/5/2016 3:16 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things on and off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally released.
>
> Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more flexible than a silk-screened metal panel.
>
> I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's really time to lighten up, folks.
>
> Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of "empty" buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the firmware grows to need them.
>
> On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the touch screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch
>
>
>
>
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> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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N5GE

Re: New products

In reply to this post by Jerry Moore

Below John says that airline and military pilots use touch screens,
and he is right, but I have never seen or heard of blind aircraft
pilot so that part of his comment is flawed.

>On June 5, 2016 4:35:26 PM EDT, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Ha, Elecraft needs to progress at some stage, or get left behind.

>Well, touch screen UI have
>also moved over to commercial products, the military and airline pilots also use touch screen
>UI communication devices. If they are good enough to be used on commercial aircraft
>and in military applications, then it sure is good enough for ham radio.

>
>On 5 Jun 2016, at 10:13 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>Don,
>
>I suspect that having redesigned a rig with touch screen
>capability the manufacturer would, in a short period of time realize
>the error of their ways. Hopfully they would still have enough
>capital to revert to the original design and fire the person
>responsible for the change.
>
>On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:37:42 -0400, you wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for
> blind operators.
> Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios
> with those blind operators particularly in mind.
> A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/5/2016 3:16 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future
> upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things
> on and off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally
> released.
>
> Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more
> flexible than a silk-screened metal panel.
>
> I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's
> really time to lighten up, folks.
>
> Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of
> "empty" buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the
> firmware grows to need them.
>
> On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the
> touch screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch
>
>
>
>
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Peter Lambert

Re: New products

I've got a better idea. Don't make any new products. I do have to get a
KX2, could never sell my KX3 and she'll kill me for sure. Thanks and
congrats, another work of art.

73's Peter VK4JD

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
Sent: Monday, 6 June 2016 4:42 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

Below John says that airline and military pilots use touch screens, and he
is right, but I have never seen or heard of blind aircraft pilot so that
part of his comment is flawed.

>On June 5, 2016 4:35:26 PM EDT, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>Ha, Elecraft needs to progress at some stage, or get left behind.

>Well, touch screen UI have
>also moved over to commercial products, the military and airline pilots
>also use touch screen UI communication devices. If they are good enough
>to be used on commercial aircraft and in military applications, then it
sure is good enough for ham radio.

>
>On 5 Jun 2016, at 10:13 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>Don,
>
>I suspect that having redesigned a rig with touch screen capability the
>manufacturer would, in a short period of time realize the error of
>their ways. Hopfully they would still have enough capital to revert to
>the original design and fire the person responsible for the change.
>
>On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:37:42 -0400, you wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for
> blind operators.
> Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios
> with those blind operators particularly in mind.
> A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/5/2016 3:16 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future
> upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things
> on and off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally
> released.
>
> Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more
> flexible than a silk-screened metal panel.
>
> I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's
> really time to lighten up, folks.
>
> Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of
> "empty" buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the
> firmware grows to need them.
>
> On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the
> touch screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch
>
>
>
>
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
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ARS N5GE

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John Kramer

Re: New products

In reply to this post by N5GE

hahaha yes, but the reason you don’t see blind airline pilots, is because they need to visually
see the final approach and all the controls in the cockpit….and NOT because their communication
equipment is not blind friendly. Blind people use touch screen devices daily - smart phones,
tablets etc etc etc.

On 6 Jun 2016, at 8:42 AM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:

Below John says that airline and military pilots use touch screens,
and he is right, but I have never seen or heard of blind aircraft
pilot so that part of his comment is flawed.

> On June 5, 2016 4:35:26 PM EDT, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ha, Elecraft needs to progress at some stage, or get left behind.

> Well, touch screen UI have
> also moved over to commercial products, the military and airline pilots also use touch screen
> UI communication devices. If they are good enough to be used on commercial aircraft
> and in military applications, then it sure is good enough for ham radio.

>
> On 5 Jun 2016, at 10:13 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> I suspect that having redesigned a rig with touch screen
> capability the manufacturer would, in a short period of time realize
> the error of their ways. Hopfully they would still have enough
> capital to revert to the original design and fire the person
> responsible for the change.
>
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:37:42 -0400, you wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for
> blind operators.
> Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios
> with those blind operators particularly in mind.
> A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/5/2016 3:16 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future
> upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things
> on and off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally
> released.
>
> Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more
> flexible than a silk-screened metal panel.
>
> I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's
> really time to lighten up, folks.
>
> Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of
> "empty" buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the
> firmware grows to need them.
>
> On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the
> touch screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch
>
>
>
>
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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ARS N5GE

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John Kramer

Re: New products

Yes Ray. If you had told someone 10 - 15 years ago that most phones would have touch screens
with very few knobs, you would likely have been laughed at. Look at how much can more now be
done on a smart phone, compared to the old Nokia’s that were limited to a bunch of hardware buttons.

73
John

On 6 Jun 2016, at 2:44 PM, Ray Sills <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi John:

Indeed, it is true that on final, pilots use a visual reference to the ground. Even there, many aircraft have an audio “readout” of height above ground for the last 100 feet of altitude.

I believe that in the future, we will see autonomously flown aircraft. A lot of an airliner’s flight is already highly automated, so it will at some point be completely automated. After all, it’s already being done with various spacecraft that need to get from point A to point B with little margin of error.

Whatever happens for ham radio, we’ll get used to it and adapt accordingly. I remember once hearing some old-timer hams saying that they would never, ever, ever, operate that silly sideband mode. It was too hard to tune in, and sounded wacky. :)

73 de Ray
K2ULR
KX3 #211

> On Jun 6, 2016, at 4:16 AM, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> hahaha yes, but the reason you don’t see blind airline pilots, is because they need to visually
> see the final approach and all the controls in the cockpit….and NOT because their communication
> equipment is not blind friendly. Blind people use touch screen devices daily - smart phones,
> tablets etc etc etc.
>

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Wes Stewart-2

Re: New products

In reply to this post by N5GE

You may disagree with it, but his comment is not "flawed."

On 6/5/2016 11:42 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE wrote:
> Below John says that airline and military pilots use touch screens,
> and he is right, but I have never seen or heard of blind aircraft
> pilot so that part of his comment is flawed.
>

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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: New products

In reply to this post by John Kramer

I remember back in the early eighties when I worked at Microlog Inc. in Gaithersburg MD, we experimented with a black-box, knobless "radio" that connected directly to the antenna and a computer terminal. The only analog components were to be the RF power amp. Back then, a 30 MEGAbit hard drive was considered HUGE, and typical clock speeds were still measured in (low) MHz ranges.
This box was to run only RTTY and CW with around 50 watts (class C) output. We actually had a set working on low power, probably no higher than 80M and a few milliwatts of output. We successfully communicated between rooms on RTTY.
Back then, terms like SDR etc., hadn't been created yet.

Luckily for me, all the principles at Microlog were very active hams so it was a lot of fun. Unfortunately, this particular project never went into anything close to production although we had many lunch-time discussions about how kool it would be.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 8:57 AM
To: Ray Sills <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

Yes Ray. If you had told someone 10 - 15 years ago that most phones would have touch screens with very few knobs, you would likely have been laughed at. Look at how much can more now be done on a smart phone, compared to the old Nokia’s that were limited to a bunch of hardware buttons.

73
John

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Terry

Re: New Products

In reply to this post by dennis rosenbalm

I can hardly wait to read the next Digest of this group regarding the New
Products discussion of touchscreens vs knob interfaced SD radios, because I
MUST have the latest interface technology in order to have any enjoyment of
Amateur Radio. Alas, my beloved KX3 looks doomed because Hamthought, Inc.,
has just released their latest radio. It has a Thought Screen. All a ham
has to do is think of the frequency and the radio will go to it, as well as
any other function of the radio. It is amazing technology and I think the
Elecraft, ICOM, and all other Amateur Radio equipment manufacturers are in
real trouble. They are going to have to adapt to the new technology or go
out of business. Hams realize that the fate of the world revolves around
the kind of interface a software-defined radio has.

73's,

Terry

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: New Products

Terry,

A Thought Screen would be far too revealing, as
would a Thought Keyboard on a computer :-)

73, Phil W7OX

On 6/6/16 9:03 AM, Terry Brown wrote:

Elecraft mailing list

Re: New products

In reply to this post by dennis rosenbalm

RE: Below John says that airline and military pilots use touch sreens, and he is right.This is incorrect.

In my 45 years of military and airline aircraft engineering experience, I have not seen touch screens utilized to any significant extent in military or commercial aircraft displays. They have all used "programable hardware keys". Look carefully at their displays you will see a row of hardware keys on the bezel that surrounds the display. The use of these programable hardware keys gives the best of the touch screen world where you can change the key function based on the displayed options, without sacraficing the ergonomic advantages of a real key. The labels and functions of the keys change, but you press the hardware keys

It is really more than simply tactile feedback. The ability to rest a gloved finger on the key before pressing is essential in the g-loaded world of flight. Note that in many cases the keys have short guards, or more correctly, guides between the keys to help prevent dual or incorrect key presses.

Mark,
ars: KE6BB
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EricJ-2

Re: New Products

In reply to this post by Terry

Ham radio becomes indistinguishable from gaming with the rise of
contesting. Now ham gaming becomes ham VR gaming with the advent of
Hamthought.

Brave New World Two Hundred Meters and Down

Eric KE6US

On 6/6/2016 9:03 AM, Terry Brown wrote:

> I can hardly wait to read the next Digest of this group regarding the New
> Products discussion of touchscreens vs knob interfaced SD radios, because I
> MUST have the latest interface technology in order to have any enjoyment of
> Amateur Radio. Alas, my beloved KX3 looks doomed because Hamthought, Inc.,
> has just released their latest radio. It has a Thought Screen. All a ham
> has to do is think of the frequency and the radio will go to it, as well as
> any other function of the radio. It is amazing technology and I think the
> Elecraft, ICOM, and all other Amateur Radio equipment manufacturers are in
> real trouble. They are going to have to adapt to the new technology or go
> out of business. Hams realize that the fate of the world revolves around
> the kind of interface a software-defined radio has.
>
>
>
> 73's,
>
>
>
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>

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