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New products

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: New products

Don,

Please tell us why a radio must have only one user interface?

We've had a long discussion of external programmable keypads for sighted
operators. Lot of people like them.

Same basic idea works for the visually impaired, and for those who just
hate touch screens (or simply need more buttons).

73 -- Lynn

On 6/5/2016 12:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Lynn,
>
> Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for
> blind operators.
> Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios
> with those blind operators particularly in mind.
> A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

John Kramer

Re: New products

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Mark

I really thought this thread would have died by now :-)

Incorrect - I was incorrectly quoted by another guy saying that I said military aircraft used touch screen UI.
I did not say that, I said the military (not air force) used touch screens. The military do in my country, I
don’t know about the USA.
As far as commercial airlines, most airlines now use iPads. Taken from Wikipedia…quote

<<<<Cockpit iPads are iPads used in the aviation industry to replace paper charts and manuals.
This technology is currently being used by both private and commercial aircraft pilots.

History and testing[edit]
The iPad has been used in General Aviation in conjunction with its paper backup counterpart,
which is mandated by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). There are many applications
available which include everything that would be on the paper charts plus aviation tools including
navigation charts, taxi procedures, weather maps, GPS, Minimum Equipment List, Company
Policy Manual, Federal Aviation Regulations and flight controls etc etc etc etc etc>>>>

So in my original post, and I still stand by it, Touch screen devices are being used in commercial
airlines, and by the military (I didn’t say military aircraft), and if it is reliable enough for them to count
on, it will surely be reliable enough for us hams

73
John

On 6 Jun 2016, at 6:36 PM, Mark, ars: KE6BB via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

RE: Below John says that airline and military pilots use touch sreens, and he is right.This is incorrect.

In my 45 years of military and airline aircraft engineering experience, I have not seen touch screens utilized to any significant extent in military or commercial aircraft displays. They have all used "programable hardware keys". Look carefully at their displays you will see a row of hardware keys on the bezel that surrounds the display. The use of these programable hardware keys gives the best of the touch screen world where you can change the key function based on the displayed options, without sacraficing the ergonomic advantages of a real key. The labels and functions of the keys change, but you press the hardware keys

It is really more than simply tactile feedback. The ability to rest a gloved finger on the key before pressing is essential in the g-loaded world of flight. Note that in many cases the keys have short guards, or more correctly, guides between the keys to help prevent dual or incorrect key presses.

Mark,
ars: KE6BB
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len

Re: New products

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

As a developer of both hardware and software products that use touch screens
I have mixed feelings.

My number one gripe with soft environments is the tendency to continually
modify the environment and jam more and more functionality into the same
footprint. This either needs to be done with width or depth, take your
pick. Both Apple and Windows are horrible abusers. Every new version of
their software requires users to hunt down functions that have been moved or
crammed down. Functions that were originally intuitive are now obfuscated
in the name of progress. Lack of consistency is extremely frustrating for
most users.

Today because of the ease of soft environments it seems that companies feel
compelled to continually bring a "new look" to each software revision of
their website or product. How many of you think Yahoo scored a home run
with NEO? In my opinion NEO is an absolute disaster. But corporate egos
won't allow users out. How would you like someone mucking with your beloved
radio in the name of pretty progress. I'll take consistency over pretty and
modern every time. I'm buying a radio, I don't want an iPhone clone, or an
Icom clone, I want my KX3 to look and exactly like the KX3 I bought. I
trust the engineers at Elecraft to make acceptable and necessary upgrades
for functionality. I also trust that they are not going to ruin a great
radio in the name of glitter..

It has been pointed out previously in this thread that all of Elecraft's
radios can be easily connected to a computer for computer control. Not
everything in the world needs to be integrated, and often doing so creates
compromises that are much more difficult to live with and limit the lifetime
of a product. I'm tickled pink with my Elecraft products and don't feel the
need for them to emulate anyone else to keep me as a customer! We shouldn't
be compelled to buy a radio every two years like we do with cell phones. My
expectation is to buy a product that will function for many years, and
possibly a decade or more. I would rather have multiple Elecraft products
rather than one that pretends to be all things to all people.

73

len

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Robert Nobis - N7RJN

Re: New products

In reply to this post by K5HM

Fingerprints on a touchscreen are very easy to clean.

Bob Nobis - N7RJN
[hidden email]

> On Jun 5, 2016, at 19:50, K5HM <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have a new car with Touchscreen controls. When the engine is off, I see all the finger marks. Ugh. No touchscreen for me.
>
> 73,
> Ron, K5HM
> [hidden email]
> www.qrz.com/db/k5hm
>
> Excelsior!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jerry More
> Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 9:06 PM
> To: John <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products
>
> Oh,, and I wanted to point out that if you are using a computer with CAT then most software packages allow you to operate with keyboard shortcuts to QSY, tune up, tune down, change modes, filters..etc.. all up to your imagination depending on the software and your needs.
> Jer
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
> From: Jerry Moore
> Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 5:05 PM
> To: John; [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products
>
> Adding $100 or more to add a touchscreen ui to a radio provides very little value in my view, is silly. The radio cost to value ratio is very low (meaning the value is high). The only exception I can see would be integrating the P3 as an option (hopefully enhancing with a micro computer/ssd for logging, digital, extended macros...etc, basically what I'm doing now with a raspberry pi).
>
> So that is if the cost is comparable to getting the P3.
>
> Without the features of the P3 integrated; who changes settings so often that the included programmable macro buttons aren't enough?
>
> On June 5, 2016 4:35:26 PM EDT, John <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ha, Elecraft needs to progress at some stage, or get left behind.
>
> Touch screen UI is and has been extensively used - 3 billion touch screen smart phones out there, 1.2 billion touch screen tablets. I can see you all reaching for your keyboards to protest that phones and tablets are not the same thing. Well, touch screen UI have also moved over to commercial products, the military and airline pilots also use touch screen UI communication devices. If they are good enough to be used on commercial aircraft and in military applications, then it sure is good enough for ham radio.
> Touch screen UI panels having become so prolific, that they have dropped the cost enormously, resolution is picture sharp and reliability is extremely good.
> Touch screens have huge potential, and almost unlimited versatility. If you need more knobs or buttons on your rig, due to new features having been added……no problem with a touch screen.
> Just a firmware update to add a knob, button, slider or meter onto the screen.
> The problem with conventional rigs, is you run out of physical knobs and buttons when features are added to the radio. I see this in my KX3 - some knobs have three functions, and to try and remember what each knobs second or third function does, becomes difficult.
>
> Food for thought :-)
>
> 73
> John
>
>
>
>
> On 5 Jun 2016, at 10:13 PM, Amateur Radio Operator N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> I suspect that having redesigned a rig with touch screen capability the manufacturer would, in a short period of time realize the error of their ways. Hopfully they would still have enough capital to revert to the original design and fire the person responsible for the change.
>
> On Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:37:42 -0400, you wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> Please tell us how a touchscreen interface can enhance usability for blind operators.
> Elecraft has made a commitment for such usability for all their radios with those blind operators particularly in mind.
> A GUI interface means nothing to those who cannot see it.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/5/2016 3:16 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> A radio with only physical knobs and buttons severely limits future upgradability, and leads to crazy button combinations to turn things on and off that weren't even a dream when the radio was originally released.
>
> Touch screens may not be always convenient, but they're much more flexible than a silk-screened metal panel.
>
> I realize that knobs and buttons are a religion for some, but it's really time to lighten up, folks.
>
> Either that or for Elecraft to release a rig with a whole bunch of "empty" buttons and sell stickers to update the front panel when the firmware grows to need them.
>
> On 6/5/2016 10:18 AM, Buddy Brannan wrote:
> Also, can we pllease, for the love of all that is holy, not do the touch screen GUI? At least, not an exclusively touch
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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EricJ

Re: New products

In reply to this post by len

With that, the thread effectively closed for me. Nobody has said it
better. Thanks, Len.

Eric KE6US

On 6/6/2016 10:18 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> As a developer of both hardware and software products that use touch screens
> I have mixed feelings.
>
> My number one gripe with soft environments is the tendency to continually
> modify the environment and jam more and more functionality into the same
> footprint. This either needs to be done with width or depth, take your
> pick. Both Apple and Windows are horrible abusers. Every new version of
> their software requires users to hunt down functions that have been moved or
> crammed down. Functions that were originally intuitive are now obfuscated
> in the name of progress. Lack of consistency is extremely frustrating for
> most users.
>
> Today because of the ease of soft environments it seems that companies feel
> compelled to continually bring a "new look" to each software revision of
> their website or product. How many of you think Yahoo scored a home run
> with NEO? In my opinion NEO is an absolute disaster. But corporate egos
> won't allow users out. How would you like someone mucking with your beloved
> radio in the name of pretty progress. I'll take consistency over pretty and
> modern every time. I'm buying a radio, I don't want an iPhone clone, or an
> Icom clone, I want my KX3 to look and exactly like the KX3 I bought. I
> trust the engineers at Elecraft to make acceptable and necessary upgrades
> for functionality. I also trust that they are not going to ruin a great
> radio in the name of glitter..
>
> It has been pointed out previously in this thread that all of Elecraft's
> radios can be easily connected to a computer for computer control. Not
> everything in the world needs to be integrated, and often doing so creates
> compromises that are much more difficult to live with and limit the lifetime
> of a product. I'm tickled pink with my Elecraft products and don't feel the
> need for them to emulate anyone else to keep me as a customer! We shouldn't
> be compelled to buy a radio every two years like we do with cell phones. My
> expectation is to buy a product that will function for many years, and
> possibly a decade or more. I would rather have multiple Elecraft products
> rather than one that pretends to be all things to all people.
>
> 73
>
> len
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>

Gary Gregory-2

Re: New products

What he said
😊
Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: "EricJ" <[hidden email]>
Sent: ‎7/‎06/‎2016 4:03 AM
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products

With that, the thread effectively closed for me. Nobody has said it
better. Thanks, Len.

Eric KE6US

On 6/6/2016 10:18 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

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Edward R Cole

Re: New products

In reply to this post by dennis rosenbalm

Tried to resist commenting, but Len's stood out <mine inserted below>

Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2016 11:18:49 -0600
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] New products
Message-ID: <05de01d1c017$7de97e10$79bc7a30$@ka7ftp.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

As a developer of both hardware and software products that use touch screens
I have mixed feelings.

My number one gripe with soft environments is the tendency to continually
modify the environment and jam more and more functionality into the same
footprint. This either needs to be done with width or depth, take your
pick. Both Apple and Windows are horrible abusers. Every new version of
their software requires users to hunt down functions that have been moved or
crammed down. Functions that were originally intuitive are now obfuscated
in the name of progress. Lack of consistency is extremely frustrating for
most users.

=Absolutely agree - why I am keeping my XP32-SP3 until it fails. I
will soon go off-line so security will not be any issue unless I load
a file via flash-drive (which I will do occasionally). Vista-win8 so
frustrating I just didn't use that computer for much of anything. I
will use win10 (made better than win8 by customer revolt) for
internet and e-mail (primarily).

=But my ham applications stay on XP32 where they work; no driver
upgrades or hdwr upgrades. For K3/KX3 firmware upgrades I will just
plug the USB cable into the win10, temporarily.

Today because of the ease of soft environments it seems that companies feel
compelled to continually bring a "new look" to each software revision of
their website or product. How many of you think Yahoo scored a home run
with NEO? In my opinion NEO is an absolute disaster. But corporate egos
won't allow users out. How would you like someone mucking with your beloved
radio in the name of pretty progress. I'll take consistency over pretty and
modern every time. I'm buying a radio, I don't want an iPhone clone, or an
Icom clone, I want my KX3 to look and exactly like the KX3 I bought. I
trust the engineers at Elecraft to make acceptable and necessary upgrades
for functionality. I also trust that they are not going to ruin a great
radio in the name of glitter..

=I chose the K3 because it is what I wanted: a good combo of
traditional user interface with firmware upgradability. I could have
chosen a Flex-5000 at that point in time. I run sw on my computer to
control the K3 for the modes that need a more graphical
display. Normal voice modes work fine with knobs. CW too.

It has been pointed out previously in this thread that all of Elecraft's
radios can be easily connected to a computer for computer control. Not
everything in the world needs to be integrated, and often doing so creates
compromises that are much more difficult to live with and limit the lifetime
of a product. I'm tickled pink with my Elecraft products and don't feel the
need for them to emulate anyone else to keep me as a customer! We shouldn't
be compelled to buy a radio every two years like we do with cell phones. My
expectation is to buy a product that will function for many years, and
possibly a decade or more. I would rather have multiple Elecraft products
rather than one that pretends to be all things to all people.

=every two years? More like every two months. My wife still uses
her flip-phone for phone calls; has ipad for the other stuff, and a
laptop, and a couple kindles; and another ipad which partially failed - enough!

=We have land-line telephone which includes our DSL (no fiber up here
as yet). I have no cell. MY younger sister and her husband switched
to only having cell; not sure how they get internet in Ohio? Maybe
only from their phones?

=progress is nice <some times> but not just for the reason for selling stuff.

73

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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Wes Stewart-2

Re: New products

In reply to this post by len

I still use IOS5 on my iPhone 4S;-)

On 6/6/2016 10:18 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

Kevin Stover

Re: New products

In reply to this post by len

I agree totally.

One thing I never hope to see and thankfully probably won't is a pilot
reaching for a touch screen while the aircraft is doing + or - 50ft
"hops" in turbulence. Touch the screen to reduce thrust, slip of the
finger and the engines shut off.
What's the procedure for restarting engines in turbulence like that?
Wanna try that with a touch screen?

BTW, I'm the legally blind ham. Never did I mention in ANY email to this
list pilots or cockpits, military or commercial...PERIOD. Some of you
might do better focusing on your email editing and keyboard skills and
forget the touch screens. The local community college probably has
beginner computer classes available for continuing education credits.

I'm done.

On 6/6/2016 12:18 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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Matt Zilmer-3

Re: New products

Just a benign note. Primary aircraft engine controls will probably
always be manual and "hard". Procedures will always have paper backups,
even if the manuals are also available via the glass in the flight
deck. Most navigation and related functions are already primary on
touch, or at least "soft switches" aligned with the touchscreen, but I
believe the FAA has requirements about hard instruments as backup (and
primary instruments always will be). I know nothing about military
aviation requirements, but often their aircraft are more conservative in
design than civilian equipment.

Touch screen controls are standard fare in consumer electronics, and one
of the main reasons is that such devices are flexible in use cases and
not very expensive. Hard controls have a fixed cost structure.
Consumer electronics are on a declining cost curve.

Note: I am an Elecraft employee.

73,

matt W6NIA

On 6/6/2016 5:52 PM, Kevin Stover wrote:

> I agree totally.
>
> One thing I never hope to see and thankfully probably won't is a pilot
> reaching for a touch screen while the aircraft is doing + or - 50ft
> "hops" in turbulence. Touch the screen to reduce thrust, slip of the
> finger and the engines shut off.
> What's the procedure for restarting engines in turbulence like that?
> Wanna try that with a touch screen?
>
> BTW, I'm the legally blind ham. Never did I mention in ANY email to
> this list pilots or cockpits, military or commercial...PERIOD. Some of
> you might do better focusing on your email editing and keyboard skills
> and forget the touch screens. The local community college probably has
> beginner computer classes available for continuing education credits.
>
> I'm done.
>
>
> On 6/6/2016 12:18 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> As a developer of both hardware and software products that use touch
>> screens
>> I have mixed feelings.
>>
>> My number one gripe with soft environments is the tendency to
>> continually
>> modify the environment and jam more and more functionality into the same
>> footprint. This either needs to be done with width or depth, take your
>> pick. Both Apple and Windows are horrible abusers. Every new
>> version of
>> their software requires users to hunt down functions that have been
>> moved or
>> crammed down. Functions that were originally intuitive are now
>> obfuscated
>> in the name of progress. Lack of consistency is extremely frustrating
>> for
>> most users.
>>
>> Today because of the ease of soft environments it seems that
>> companies feel
>> compelled to continually bring a "new look" to each software revision of
>> their website or product. How many of you think Yahoo scored a home run
>> with NEO? In my opinion NEO is an absolute disaster. But corporate
>> egos
>> won't allow users out. How would you like someone mucking with your
>> beloved
>> radio in the name of pretty progress. I'll take consistency over
>> pretty and
>> modern every time. I'm buying a radio, I don't want an iPhone clone,
>> or an
>> Icom clone, I want my KX3 to look and exactly like the KX3 I bought. I
>> trust the engineers at Elecraft to make acceptable and necessary
>> upgrades
>> for functionality. I also trust that they are not going to ruin a great
>> radio in the name of glitter..
>>
>> It has been pointed out previously in this thread that all of Elecraft's
>> radios can be easily connected to a computer for computer control. Not
>> everything in the world needs to be integrated, and often doing so
>> creates
>> compromises that are much more difficult to live with and limit the
>> lifetime
>> of a product. I'm tickled pink with my Elecraft products and don't
>> feel the
>> need for them to emulate anyone else to keep me as a customer! We
>> shouldn't
>> be compelled to buy a radio every two years like we do with cell
>> phones. My
>> expectation is to buy a product that will function for many years, and
>> possibly a decade or more. I would rather have multiple Elecraft
>> products
>> rather than one that pretends to be all things to all people.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> len
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
>

--
Always store beer in a dark place. - R. Heinlein

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123