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Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

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Chip Stratton

Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

Adam Farson VA7OJ has an article in the current March/April 2015 QEX
discussing the use of Noise Power Ratio (NPR) to help define a
receiver's performance in a crowded band in a way that might be more
illuminating than the simpler two tone tests. Its an interesting
discussion which makes some sense, but then I'm not anywhere close to
an expert in that field.

In any event, he has figures from a number of transceivers, including
a couple of K3s which no doubt do not have the new synthesizer. The
K3s still performed very well relative the the rest of the field in
these tests, though they were slightly behind the IC-7700, IC-7800,
and TS-590S.

Which of course makes me wonder how the K3 with new synthesizer would
perform in this arena?

From a guy with a mild metrology addiction...
Chip
AE5KA
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Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

I read that article and was hoping Wayne or one of the guru guys would
comment . It is probably picking specs out of the pepper , but it seems to
me that testing a K3 around 5300 khz means there is essentially no benefit
from the ham band bandpass filters the K3 uses - Would like to see those
numbers compared for instance with the 3880khz or whatever freq it was
with a filter in a ham band. (I am NOT talking about roofing filters)

Hank K7HP

-----Original Message-----
From: Chip Stratton
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 7:53 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

Adam Farson VA7OJ has an article in the current March/April 2015 QEX
discussing the use of Noise Power Ratio (NPR) to help define a
receiver's performance in a crowded band in a way that might be more
illuminating than the simpler two tone tests. Its an interesting
discussion which makes some sense, but then I'm not anywhere close to
an expert in that field.

In any event, he has figures from a number of transceivers, including
a couple of K3s which no doubt do not have the new synthesizer. The
K3s still performed very well relative the the rest of the field in
these tests, though they were slightly behind the IC-7700, IC-7800,
and TS-590S.

Which of course makes me wonder how the K3 with new synthesizer would
perform in this arena?

From a guy with a mild metrology addiction...
Chip
AE5KA
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wayne burdick

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

Administrator

In reply to this post by Chip Stratton

The transceivers near the top of Adam's list are all pretty close in performance; possibly close enough to be indistinguishable in actually use on-air.

A K3 with the new synths may have been been better still.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Mar 12, 2015, at 7:53 AM, Chip Stratton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Adam Farson VA7OJ has an article in the current March/April 2015 QEX
> discussing the use of Noise Power Ratio (NPR) to help define a
> receiver's performance in a crowded band in a way that might be more
> illuminating than the simpler two tone tests. Its an interesting
> discussion which makes some sense, but then I'm not anywhere close to
> an expert in that field.
>
> In any event, he has figures from a number of transceivers, including
> a couple of K3s which no doubt do not have the new synthesizer. The
> K3s still performed very well relative the the rest of the field in
> these tests, though they were slightly behind the IC-7700, IC-7800,
> and TS-590S.
>
> Which of course makes me wonder how the K3 with new synthesizer would
> perform in this arena?
>
> From a guy with a mild metrology addiction...
> Chip
> AE5KA
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by HP

Or perhaps the author will update his article,
which was outdated at the date of publication :-)

Phil W7OX

On 3/12/15 9:23 AM, Hank P wrote:

> I read that article and was hoping Wayne or one
> of the guru guys would comment . It is probably
> picking specs out of the pepper , but it seems
> to me that testing a K3 around 5300 khz means
> there is essentially no benefit from the ham
> band bandpass filters the K3 uses - Would like
> to see those numbers compared for instance with
> the 3880khz or whatever freq it was with a
> filter in a ham band. (I am NOT talking about
> roofing filters)
>
> Hank K7HP
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Chip Stratton
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 7:53 AM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3
> with new synthesizer?
>
> Adam Farson VA7OJ has an article in the current
> March/April 2015 QEX
> discussing the use of Noise Power Ratio (NPR) to
> help define a
> receiver's performance in a crowded band in a
> way that might be more
> illuminating than the simpler two tone tests.
> Its an interesting
> discussion which makes some sense, but then I'm
> not anywhere close to
> an expert in that field.
>
> In any event, he has figures from a number of
> transceivers, including
> a couple of K3s which no doubt do not have the
> new synthesizer. The
> K3s still performed very well relative the the
> rest of the field in
> these tests, though they were slightly behind
> the IC-7700, IC-7800,
> and TS-590S.
>
> Which of course makes me wonder how the K3 with
> new synthesizer would
> perform in this arena?
>
>> From a guy with a mild metrology addiction...
> Chip
> AE5KA

Jim Bolit

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

VA7OJ is highly biased toward ICOM gear.

For the record, I am highly biased towards Elecraft gear.

I am sure we both have our reasons.

Jim
W6AIM

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 9:28 AM
To: Chip Stratton
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

The transceivers near the top of Adam's list are all pretty close in
performance; possibly close enough to be indistinguishable in actually use
on-air.

A K3 with the new synths may have been been better still.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Mar 12, 2015, at 7:53 AM, Chip Stratton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Adam Farson VA7OJ has an article in the current March/April 2015 QEX
> discussing the use of Noise Power Ratio (NPR) to help define a
> receiver's performance in a crowded band in a way that might be more
> illuminating than the simpler two tone tests. Its an interesting
> discussion which makes some sense, but then I'm not anywhere close to
> an expert in that field.
>
> In any event, he has figures from a number of transceivers, including
> a couple of K3s which no doubt do not have the new synthesizer. The
> K3s still performed very well relative the the rest of the field in
> these tests, though they were slightly behind the IC-7700, IC-7800,
> and TS-590S.
>
> Which of course makes me wonder how the K3 with new synthesizer would
> perform in this arena?
>
> From a guy with a mild metrology addiction...
> Chip
> AE5KA
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

Scott Manthe-2

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by Chip Stratton

I suspect that the "Noise Power Ratio" test was used because that is the
only test that Adam could use to get his beloved Icom gear near the top
of the list. Mr. Farson has had a website devoted to Icom gear for many
years, so I'm not sure if this test could be considered even remotely
objective.

Here is a NPR tutorial from another source, for those interested and
technically proficient enough to investigate further.

73,
Scott, N9AA

On 3/12/15 10:53 AM, Chip Stratton wrote:

Scott Manthe-2

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by Chip Stratton

Sorry, here is the link that was supposed to be in my previous email:
http://www.lintech.com/PDF/npr_wp.pdf

Sorry!

73,
Scott N9AA
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David Gilbert

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

Very interesting. Given the issue some of us had with muddy signals
when there were multiple low level CW signals within a narrow passband,
it would be very interesting to see the results of this measurement
before and after the firmware change that was supposed to address it, as
well as with and without the new synths.

Dave AB7E

On 3/12/2015 11:45 AM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> Sorry, here is the link that was supposed to be in my previous email:
> http://www.lintech.com/PDF/npr_wp.pdf
>
> Sorry!
>
> 73,
> Scott N9AA

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Chester Alderman

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by Jim Bolit

I think it is a little more than that, I think he is blinded by Icom! When I
had my IC-7700 he became a real PITA!

Tom - W4BQF

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 1:49 PM
To: 'Wayne Burdick'; 'Chip Stratton'
Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

VA7OJ is highly biased toward ICOM gear.

For the record, I am highly biased towards Elecraft gear.

I am sure we both have our reasons.

Jim
W6AIM

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 9:28 AM
To: Chip Stratton
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

The transceivers near the top of Adam's list are all pretty close in
performance; possibly close enough to be indistinguishable in actually use
on-air.

A K3 with the new synths may have been been better still.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Mar 12, 2015, at 7:53 AM, Chip Stratton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Adam Farson VA7OJ has an article in the current March/April 2015 QEX
> discussing the use of Noise Power Ratio (NPR) to help define a
> receiver's performance in a crowded band in a way that might be more
> illuminating than the simpler two tone tests. Its an interesting
> discussion which makes some sense, but then I'm not anywhere close to
> an expert in that field.
>
> In any event, he has figures from a number of transceivers, including
> a couple of K3s which no doubt do not have the new synthesizer. The
> K3s still performed very well relative the the rest of the field in
> these tests, though they were slightly behind the IC-7700, IC-7800,
> and TS-590S.
>
> Which of course makes me wonder how the K3 with new synthesizer would
> perform in this arena?
>
> From a guy with a mild metrology addiction...
> Chip
> AE5KA
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

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Johnny Siu

Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

Hello Scott,
I am afraid I do not agree to your comments. I am a owner of both Icom and entire K-line, I understand what Adam AB4OJ is doing. Adam knows the design and structure of K3 no worse than any radio expert here (or at least far better than me).
Anyway, just let us read both Rob Sherwood and Adam's test data and use them as a cross reference to each other. I don't mind reading articles from different angles.
While there are many CW guru here, voice mode is still the most popular mode across the HF users. Some tests under voice mode conditions do give another view.
I think we just keep our fingers crossed and see what are the results for IC7851 and K3 new synthesizer model perform in both Adam and Sherwood test.
By the way, both Rob and Adam know each other and do have the chance to communicate.
73
Johnny VR2XMC

寄件人︰ Scott Manthe <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2015年03月13日 (週五) 2:08 AM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

I suspect that the "Noise Power Ratio" test was used because that is the
only test that Adam could use to get his beloved Icom gear near the top
of the list. Mr. Farson has had a website devoted to Icom gear for many
years, so I'm not sure if this test could be considered even remotely
objective.

Here is a NPR tutorial from another source, for those interested and
technically proficient enough to investigate further.

73,
Scott, N9AA

On 3/12/15 10:53 AM, Chip Stratton wrote:

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

> Anyway, just let us read both Rob Sherwood and Adam's test data and
> use them as a cross reference to each other.

The issue is that Adam's data is flawed in at least two ways. The
notch is wider than the SSB filter which means the noise is not being
applied to the product detector or DSP ADC. Second by reducing the
noise level for DDC receivers, they are not being fairly tested for
the same level of total noise power. There are also questions about
the effects of roofing filters of different bandwidth - to what degree
do they change the total noise power applied to the entire receiver
chain (including the product detector or DSP ADC)? Secondly, what are
the effects of AGC ahead of the product detector/DSP ADC and does the
noise power testing really measure dynamic range or is MDS compromised
by the AGC?

With a 3.3 KHz notch, the only way Adam can fairly test receivers is
with a 6 or 15 KHz roofing filter. If he truly expects to test SSB
performance, the notch width needs to be less than half the width of
the SSB filter. Secondly, receiver MDS needs to be measured with the
noise present to rule out AGC desensitization.

BTW, Adam's MDS measurements for the two K3s he tested are off by
6 to 9 dB compared to both Sherwood and ARRL Labs while his MDS
values for Icom are within 2 dB of ARRL Labs. There is something very
unequal about the testing of the K3.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-03-12 9:26 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:

> Hello Scott,
> I am afraid I do not agree to your comments. I am a owner of both Icom and entire K-line, I understand what Adam AB4OJ is doing. Adam knows the design and structure of K3 no worse than any radio expert here (or at least far better than me).
> Anyway, just let us read both Rob Sherwood and Adam's test data and use them as a cross reference to each other. I don't mind reading articles from different angles.
> While there are many CW guru here, voice mode is still the most popular mode across the HF users. Some tests under voice mode conditions do give another view.
> I think we just keep our fingers crossed and see what are the results for IC7851 and K3 new synthesizer model perform in both Adam and Sherwood test.
> By the way, both Rob and Adam know each other and do have the chance to communicate.
> 73
> Johnny VR2XMC
>
> 寄件人︰ Scott Manthe <[hidden email]>
> 收件人︰ [hidden email]
> 傳送日期︰ 2015年03月13日 (週五) 2:08 AM
> 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?
>
> I suspect that the "Noise Power Ratio" test was used because that is the
> only test that Adam could use to get his beloved Icom gear near the top
> of the list. Mr. Farson has had a website devoted to Icom gear for many
> years, so I'm not sure if this test could be considered even remotely
> objective.
>
> Here is a NPR tutorial from another source, for those interested and
> technically proficient enough to investigate further.
>
> 73,
> Scott, N9AA
>
>
>
> On 3/12/15 10:53 AM, Chip Stratton wrote:
>> Adam Farson VA7OJ has an article in the current March/April 2015 QEX
>> discussing the use of Noise Power Ratio (NPR) to help define a
>> receiver's performance in a crowded band in a way that might be more
>> illuminating than the simpler two tone tests. Its an interesting
>> discussion which makes some sense, but then I'm not anywhere close to
>> an expert in that field.
>>
>> In any event, he has figures from a number of transceivers, including
>> a couple of K3s which no doubt do not have the new synthesizer. The
>> K3s still performed very well relative the the rest of the field in
>> these tests, though they were slightly behind the IC-7700, IC-7800,
>> and TS-590S.
>>
>> Which of course makes me wonder how the K3 with new synthesizer would
>> perform in this arena?
>>
>> >From a guy with a mild metrology addiction...
>> Chip
>> AE5KA
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Johnny Siu

Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

Thanks Joe for the highlights. Should I pass this to Adam and give him a chance to explain?
73
Johnny VR2XMC
寄件人︰ "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ [hidden email]
傳送日期︰ 2015年03月13日 (週五) 10:09 AM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

> Anyway, just let us read both Rob Sherwood and Adam's test data and
> use them as a cross reference to each other.

The issue is that Adam's data is flawed in at least two ways. The
notch is wider than the SSB filter which means the noise is not being
applied to the product detector or DSP ADC. Second by reducing the
noise level for DDC receivers, they are not being fairly tested for
the same level of total noise power. There are also questions about
the effects of roofing filters of different bandwidth - to what degree
do they change the total noise power applied to the entire receiver
chain (including the product detector or DSP ADC)? Secondly, what are
the effects of AGC ahead of the product detector/DSP ADC and does the
noise power testing really measure dynamic range or is MDS compromised
by the AGC?

With a 3.3 KHz notch, the only way Adam can fairly test receivers is
with a 6 or 15 KHz roofing filter. If he truly expects to test SSB
performance, the notch width needs to be less than half the width of
the SSB filter. Secondly, receiver MDS needs to be measured with the
noise present to rule out AGC desensitization.

BTW, Adam's MDS measurements for the two K3s he tested are off by
6 to 9 dB compared to both Sherwood and ARRL Labs while his MDS
values for Icom are within 2 dB of ARRL Labs. There is something very
unequal about the testing of the K3.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-03-12 9:26 PM, Johnny Siu wrote:

>
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Rick Stanback

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

I just completed the build of my KAT500 and KPA500 and I had the
following issues.

The KAT500:
the software was very flaky trying to connect to the KAT. I run Fedora
21 so it might be the bleeding edge Linux. I did finally get the
connect and hit the optimize for KPA500 button. I am still not able to
hit the tune button on the KAT500 and get the K3 to xmit and tune. If I
hit the button and then hit the tune button manually on the K3 it tunes?

KPA500:
When I first powered up the display would say KPA500 for a bit then
Invalid?? Then if I put the amp to oper it would immediately get the
270v fault. I took it apart and inspected all the connections including
the ribbon cables and although I did not find anything out of place or
not seated when I put it back together it seems to just work? I have
made a few contacts and everything seems to be OK. The amp follows the
K3 band with no problems.

--
Rick Stanback (N4WCQ)
"Chance only favors the prepared mind. Louis Pasteur"

On Thu, 2015-03-12 at 14:08 -0400, Scott Manthe wrote:

> I suspect that the "Noise Power Ratio" test was used because that is the
> only test that Adam could use to get his beloved Icom gear near the top
> of the list. Mr. Farson has had a website devoted to Icom gear for many
> years, so I'm not sure if this test could be considered even remotely
> objective.
>
> Here is a NPR tutorial from another source, for those interested and
> technically proficient enough to investigate further.
>
> 73,
> Scott, N9AA
>
> On 3/12/15 10:53 AM, Chip Stratton wrote:
> > Adam Farson VA7OJ has an article in the current March/April 2015 QEX
> > discussing the use of Noise Power Ratio (NPR) to help define a
> > receiver's performance in a crowded band in a way that might be more
> > illuminating than the simpler two tone tests. Its an interesting
> > discussion which makes some sense, but then I'm not anywhere close to
> > an expert in that field.
> >
> > In any event, he has figures from a number of transceivers, including
> > a couple of K3s which no doubt do not have the new synthesizer. The
> > K3s still performed very well relative the the rest of the field in
> > these tests, though they were slightly behind the IC-7700, IC-7800,
> > and TS-590S.
> >
> > Which of course makes me wonder how the K3 with new synthesizer would
> > perform in this arena?
> >
> > >From a guy with a mild metrology addiction...
> > Chip
> > AE5KA
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

On the KAT500 issue: That's how it works.
The tune button on the KAT500 puts it n Tune ModeYou have to actually Transmit on the K3 to get it to tune.

Hopefully they will make a firmware change to make it 1 button tune.

I'm not sure on the KPA500 issue.....

From: Rick Stanback <[hidden email]>
To: Scott Manthe <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

I just completed the build of my KAT500 and KPA500 and I had the
following issues.

The KAT500:
the software was very flaky trying to connect to the KAT. I run Fedora
21 so it might be the bleeding edge Linux. I did finally get the
connect and hit the optimize for KPA500 button. I am still not able to
hit the tune button on the KAT500 and get the K3 to xmit and tune. If I
hit the button and then hit the tune button manually on the K3 it tunes?

KPA500:
When I first powered up the display would say KPA500 for a bit then
Invalid?? Then if I put the amp to oper it would immediately get the
270v fault. I took it apart and inspected all the connections including
the ribbon cables and although I did not find anything out of place or
not seated when I put it back together it seems to just work? I have
made a few contacts and everything seems to be OK. The amp follows the
K3 band with no problems.

--
Rick Stanback (N4WCQ)
"Chance only favors the prepared mind. Louis Pasteur"

On Thu, 2015-03-12 at 14:08 -0400, Scott Manthe wrote:

Tony G6GLP

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by Rick Stanback

Hi Rick,
I have had similar types of issues and found with the help of Elecraft
Support that the problem was the seating of the AUXBUS cables. Mine
would seat one side or the other but not both. I used a knife to par off
a little notch in the cable housing to allow it to fit over the
retaining nut. I even tried to line the nuts up so the sides were
vertical but this didn't work.

Hope you find the problem soon its a great system when all working together.

73 de Tony G6GLP

On 16/03/2015 18:02, Rick Stanback wrote:

> I just completed the build of my KAT500 and KPA500 and I had the
> following issues.
>
> The KAT500:
> the software was very flaky trying to connect to the KAT. I run Fedora
> 21 so it might be the bleeding edge Linux. I did finally get the
> connect and hit the optimize for KPA500 button. I am still not able to
> hit the tune button on the KAT500 and get the K3 to xmit and tune. If I
> hit the button and then hit the tune button manually on the K3 it tunes?
>
> KPA500:
> When I first powered up the display would say KPA500 for a bit then
> Invalid?? Then if I put the amp to oper it would immediately get the
> 270v fault. I took it apart and inspected all the connections including
> the ribbon cables and although I did not find anything out of place or
> not seated when I put it back together it seems to just work? I have
> made a few contacts and everything seems to be OK. The amp follows the
> K3 band with no problems.
>
>

ab2tc

Re: Noise Power Ratio and the K3 with new synthesizer?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Hi,

If you put the KAT500 in AUTO mode, it will tune (if needed) just by applying power such as by hitting the TUNE button (hold XMIT) on the K3. But it is generally not advisable to stay in AUTO mode during SSB transmissions as it still has a small probability of starting a full tune cycle during voice transmissions.

AB2TC - Knut

PS. Not sure what this has to do with the subject in the subject line

Elecraft mailing list wrote

On the KAT500 issue: That's how it works.
The tune button on the KAT500 puts it n Tune ModeYou have to actually Transmit on the K3 to get it to tune.

Hopefully they will make a firmware change to make it 1 button tune.

I'm not sure on the KPA500 issue.....

<snip>