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Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

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Jim Danehy

Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.

Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.

To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some practice.

I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator skill.

73
Jim
W9VNE/VA3VNE

Sent from my iPhone
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EricJ-2

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code
was developed especially for it.

Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is
more important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist
action. Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in
any way. I've noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube
demonstrating Begali (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no
wrist movement. I've only seen it on youtube as nobody I've known since
the Army ever sent that fast!

Eric KE6US

On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:

> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.
>
> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.
>
> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some practice.
>
> I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator skill.
>
> 73
> Jim
> W9VNE/VA3VNE
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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k6dgw

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Jim Danehy

Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of
sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when
commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique was
a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent finger
movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember other
commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned.
I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever
floats your boat.

In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the DVR,
we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on Netflix. It
turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better from the
Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless played in the
disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not sound like the 5
KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack Phillips was depicted
sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish looking key and sending
Continental code while working Cape Race. If memory serves me [often
doesn't these days], ships in that era used American Morse with North
American stations. Again ... whatever works for you.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:

KENT TRIMBLE

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Jim Danehy

If you believe not moving the wrist is essential to proper Morse sending, watch Denise Stoops of KPH fame:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4scmlC7tI

Properly spaced and readable code is the goal, not wrist paralysis.

73,

Kent K9ZTV
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donovanf

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Hi Fred,

This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI

73
Frank
W3LPL

----- Original Message -----

From: "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of
sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when
commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique was
a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent finger
movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember other
commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned.
I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever
floats your boat.

In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the DVR,
we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on Netflix. It
turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better from the
Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless played in the
disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not sound like the 5
KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack Phillips was depicted
sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish looking key and sending
Continental code while working Cape Race. If memory serves me [often
doesn't these days], ships in that era used American Morse with North
American stations. Again ... whatever works for you.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by EricJ-2

On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
> The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. Operators
> learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've
> noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali
> (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement.

The only place I know that Morse was sent using "fingers only" was with
iambic/squeeze keying using an electronic keyer.

I learned on a straight key 50+ years ago where I was taught to use the
entire forearm. I moved to a bug where I was taught to roll the forearm
(confirmed after the fact by my wife's grandfather who was a long time
Western Electric landline operator/station manager) to a single paddle
TO keyer and eventually to a dual paddle keyer. I still roll my wrist
and use very little finger movement (obviously I don't "squeeze").

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:

> Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code
> was developed especially for it.
>
> Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is
> more important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist
> action. Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in
> any way. I've noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube
> demonstrating Begali (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no
> wrist movement. I've only seen it on youtube as nobody I've known since
> the Army ever sent that fast!
>
> Eric KE6US
>

Jim Sheldon

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

I learned CW back in 1961 as a "Morse Intercept Operator" in the Army
Security Agency. They didn't teach us to send, other than after we
passed 18 groups (yes, 5 leter/number groups, not English words) per
minute copying on a "Mill" they gave us a 4 hour class on sending with a
hand key. To pass that class we had to send a paragraph of text which
was recorded in the morning and then in the afternoon we had to copy
back the text we sent and get 75 percent perfect copy to pass. THAT is
extremely difficult when you learned to copy 5 letter/number groups and
then the sending test was a paragraph of English and your own sending to
boot!

I taught myself higher speed sending using a TO keyer and a Vibroplex
single lever paddle (Iambic keying hadn't been invented at that time).
I didn't get to where I could get my ham license until I got to Japan in
1963 and took the old "Conditional" test. Once I had my license I
bought a Vibroplex bug and again taught myself to use it. I do roll my
wrist slightly, and for me that is very comfortable. I also taught
myself (took a couple years to master) to switch back and forthe between
paddles and the bug, a skill I maintain to this day and I'm turning 78
in a few days. I can still copy 60 wpm or so in my head but with the
bug or paddles, my comfortable sending speed is between 25 and 30.

My pet peeve these days with the newer ops that actually can send CW is
they call CQ and then end the CQ sequence with "KN" and then wonder why
nobody answers them - LOL.

Jim, W0EB

------ Original Message ------
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 3/29/2020 3:24:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

>On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
>>The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. Operators
>>learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've
>>noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali
>>(what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement.
>
>The only place I know that Morse was sent using "fingers only" was with
>iambic/squeeze keying using an electronic keyer.
>
>I learned on a straight key 50+ years ago where I was taught to use the
>entire forearm. I moved to a bug where I was taught to roll the forearm
>(confirmed after the fact by my wife's grandfather who was a long time
>Western Electric landline operator/station manager) to a single paddle
>TO keyer and eventually to a dual paddle keyer. I still roll my wrist
>and use very little finger movement (obviously I don't "squeeze").
>
>73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
>>Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code was developed especially for it.
>>
>>Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is more important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement. I've only seen it on youtube as nobody I've known since the Army ever sent that fast!
>>
>>Eric KE6US
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by donovanf

Sending with a semi-automatic key, a.k.a, bug, is significantly different than sending with a paddle connected to a keyer. The keyer is supposed to make the dit-dah ratio and spacing correct. The length of the elements is controlled and timed electronically.

With a bug the length of a dah is controlled by the operator and the dit length by the vibrating pendulum.

I learned on a bug but now favor the paddle/keyer combination.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 3:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Hi Fred,
>
>
> This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
> and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.
>
>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?
>
> Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of
> sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when
> commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique was
> a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent finger
> movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember other
> commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned.
> I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever
> floats your boat.
>
> In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the DVR,
> we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on Netflix. It
> turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better from the
> Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless played in the
> disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not sound like the 5
> KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack Phillips was depicted
> sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish looking key and sending
> Continental code while working Cape Race. If memory serves me [often
> doesn't these days], ships in that era used American Morse with North
> American stations. Again ... whatever works for you.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:
>> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.
>>
>> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.
>>
>> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some practice.
>>
>> I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator skill.
>>
>> 73
>> Jim
>> W9VNE/VA3VNE
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

ve3gmz

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Jim Sheldon

Jim, pardon my ignorance but KN means end of transmission or invite a specific station to transmit from what I see. Why would that deter a reply from a CQ? I am sure you are right but I would like to know the experienced understanding from a pro.

Brian VE3GMZ

Sent via BlackBerry Hub+ Inbox for Android

Original Message

From: [hidden email]
Sent: March 29, 2020 4:52 p.m.
To: [hidden email]
Reply to: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

I learned CW back in 1961 as a "Morse Intercept Operator" in the Army
Security Agency. They didn't teach us to send, other than after we
passed 18 groups (yes, 5 leter/number groups, not English words) per
minute copying on a "Mill" they gave us a 4 hour class on sending with a
hand key. To pass that class we had to send a paragraph of text which
was recorded in the morning and then in the afternoon we had to copy
back the text we sent and get 75 percent perfect copy to pass. THAT is
extremely difficult when you learned to copy 5 letter/number groups and
then the sending test was a paragraph of English and your own sending to
boot!

I taught myself higher speed sending using a TO keyer and a Vibroplex
single lever paddle (Iambic keying hadn't been invented at that time).
I didn't get to where I could get my ham license until I got to Japan in
1963 and took the old "Conditional" test. Once I had my license I
bought a Vibroplex bug and again taught myself to use it. I do roll my
wrist slightly, and for me that is very comfortable. I also taught
myself (took a couple years to master) to switch back and forthe between
paddles and the bug, a skill I maintain to this day and I'm turning 78
in a few days. I can still copy 60 wpm or so in my head but with the
bug or paddles, my comfortable sending speed is between 25 and 30.

My pet peeve these days with the newer ops that actually can send CW is
they call CQ and then end the CQ sequence with "KN" and then wonder why
nobody answers them - LOL.

Jim, W0EB

------ Original Message ------
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 3/29/2020 3:24:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

ke9uw

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Jim Sheldon

So one of the older ops could answer them and ask their intentions and explain why...

Chuck Hawley
[hidden email]

Amateur Radio, KE9UW
aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles

________________________________

My pet peeve these days with the newer ops that actually can send CW is
they call CQ and then end the CQ sequence with "KN" and then wonder why
nobody answers them - LOL.

Jim, W0EB

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Chuck, KE9UW

marvwheeler

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Copying code sent with a semi-automatic key is significantly different than copying code sent with a keyer and paddle. Most amateurs, including many old time operators, send the dits at 40 wpm and the dahs at 15 wpm. Denise stoops sounds as good as anyone I have ever heard using a bug and should be immolated to everyone attempting to use one.

Marv KG7V

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

Sending with a semi-automatic key, a.k.a, bug, is significantly different than sending with a paddle connected to a keyer. The keyer is supposed to make the dit-dah ratio and spacing correct. The length of the elements is controlled and timed electronically.

With a bug the length of a dah is controlled by the operator and the dit length by the vibrating pendulum.

I learned on a bug but now favor the paddle/keyer combination.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 3:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Hi Fred,
>
>
> This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
> and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.
>
>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?
>
> Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of
> sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when
> commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique
> was a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent
> finger movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember
> other commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned.
> I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever
> floats your boat.
>
> In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the
> DVR, we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on
> Netflix. It turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better
> from the Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless
> played in the disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not
> sound like the 5 KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack
> Phillips was depicted sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish
> looking key and sending Continental code while working Cape Race. If
> memory serves me [often doesn't these days], ships in that era used
> American Morse with North American stations. Again ... whatever works for you.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:
>> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.
>>
>> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.
>>
>> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some practice.
>>
>> I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator skill.
>>
>> 73
>> Jim
>> W9VNE/VA3VNE
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Carl Yaffey

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by donovanf

Beautiful!

> On Mar 29, 2020, at 4:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Hi Fred,
>
>
> This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
> and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.
>
>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL

Carl Yaffey K8NU
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
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Https://www.columbusfolkmusicsociety.org
http://www.timbrewolves.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.folkramblers.carl-yaffey.com
Http:www.clintonvillegrass.com

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k6dgw

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by ve3gmz

Officially, "K" is the prosign for "invitation to transmit." OK,
nothing is "official" in ham radio, but hams have traditionally ended a
CQ or a transmission with "K", an invitation to transmit ... roughly the
CW equivalent of "over." Also traditionally, although less so, is "KN"
which roughly translates, "over to the station I'm in contact with
only." Ending a CQ with "KN" is thus mildly nonsensical since you're not
in contact with anyone yet.

However, consider that the Morse character for "?" translates to "IMI"
[and others such as "UTI" and "EWI"], the prosign for "Please repeat,"
or "I will repeat." In the heyday of radiotelegraphy, "INT" was used by
the Navy as the interrogatory prosign meaning "What follows is a
question." INT QSB, "Are my signals fading?" Hams and most commercial
ops just used IMI for either, still do, and somehow, we're not
confused. K or KN ... most will figure it out.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/29/2020 2:13 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Jim, pardon my ignorance but KN means end of transmission or invite a specific station to transmit from what I see. Why would that deter a reply from a CQ? I am sure you are right but I would like to know the experienced understanding from a pro.
>
> Brian VE3GMZ
>

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Rose

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by marvwheeler

The following is from one (me) who comes from decades as a seagoing op on
USC&GS (now NOAA) vessels and HAM band operation starting in 1961.

The correct procedure is to use your wrist as a "spring". Failure to do so
will soon cause a condition known as a "glass fist".

I'm also a musician, so one foot serves
as a metronome to establish a very even
sending rate.

TRIVIA ... if confronted with a brief need to use a "backwards" set of
paddles, just turn it around and reach over the top.

For more info see my QRZ page.

73

Ken Kopp - K0PP

On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 15:17 <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Copying code sent with a semi-automatic key is significantly different
> than copying code sent with a keyer and paddle. Most amateurs, including
> many old time operators, send the dits at 40 wpm and the dahs at 15 wpm.
> Denise stoops sounds as good as anyone I have ever heard using a bug and
> should be immolated to everyone attempting to use one.
>
> Marv KG7V
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:02 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?
>
> Sending with a semi-automatic key, a.k.a, bug, is significantly different
> than sending with a paddle connected to a keyer. The keyer is supposed to
> make the dit-dah ratio and spacing correct. The length of the elements is
> controlled and timed electronically.
>
> With a bug the length of a dah is controlled by the operator and the dit
> length by the vibrating pendulum.
>
> I learned on a bug but now favor the paddle/keyer combination.
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 29, 2020, at 3:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> > Hi Fred,
> >
> >
> > This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
> > and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.
> >
> >
> > www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI
> >
> > 73
> > Frank
> > W3LPL
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?
> >
> > Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of
> > sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when
> > commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique
> > was a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent
> > finger movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember
> > other commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never
> learned.
> > I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever
> > floats your boat.
> >
> > In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the
> > DVR, we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on
> > Netflix. It turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better
> > from the Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless
> > played in the disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not
> > sound like the 5 KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack
> > Phillips was depicted sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish
> > looking key and sending Continental code while working Cape Race. If
> > memory serves me [often doesn't these days], ships in that era used
> > American Morse with North American stations. Again ... whatever works
> for you.
> >
> > 73,
> > Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> > Sparks NV DM09dn
> > Washoe County
> >
> >> On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:
> >> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most
> accomplished Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would
> think it is improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched
> musicians play guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I
> am not a musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like
> musicians do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent
> operator.
> >>
> >> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal
> cords when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my
> contesting. She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average
> Morse operator. I started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex
> bug in 1954. Up Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year
> period I always moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles.
> I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who
> can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one
> thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a
> member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are
> excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.
> >>
> >> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to
> some. Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor
> and use my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done
> that for some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF
> operating. In my case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It
> did take some practice.
> >>
> >> I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any
> operator skill.
> >>
> >> 73
> >> Jim
> >> W9VNE/VA3VNE
> >>
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
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> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
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>
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Drew AF2Z

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by marvwheeler

Ha, ha... computer spell check at work: "immolated".

Sending on a bug is quite different from sending on a paddle + keyer.
The op needs to be more physical with a bug in order to inject kinetic
energy into the mechanism. Setting it up like a paddle and trying to
work it with fingers only will not go very well.

As for copying, there is nothing worse than words run together in
combination with pauses in the middle of words-- probably at least as
common with paddles as bugs. Any sending variations other than that are
merely "accents". (Admittedly, there is no accent with paddle + keyer--
only mistakes.)

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On 03/29/20 17:16, [hidden email] wrote:

> Copying code sent with a semi-automatic key is significantly different than copying code sent with a keyer and paddle. Most amateurs, including many old time operators, send the dits at 40 wpm and the dahs at 15 wpm. Denise stoops sounds as good as anyone I have ever heard using a bug and should be immolated to everyone attempting to use one.
>
> Marv KG7V
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Bob McGraw K4TAX
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:02 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?
>
> Sending with a semi-automatic key, a.k.a, bug, is significantly different than sending with a paddle connected to a keyer. The keyer is supposed to make the dit-dah ratio and spacing correct. The length of the elements is controlled and timed electronically.
>
> With a bug the length of a dah is controlled by the operator and the dit length by the vibrating pendulum.
>
> I learned on a bug but now favor the paddle/keyer combination.
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 3:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>>
>>
>> This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
>> and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.
>>
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI
>>
>> 73
>> Frank
>> W3LPL
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: "Fred Jensen" <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 6:40:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Not moving your wrist sending CW ?
>>
>> Commercial operator Denice Stoops, KI6BBR, who has the distinction of
>> sending the final broadcast from San Francisco Radio [KPH] when
>> commercial CW shut down did so using a Vibroplex bug. Her technique
>> was a rolling motion of her forearm with little if any independent
>> finger movement. She made zero misteaks. It's the technique I remember
>> other commercial ops using in the 50's, and it's a technique I never learned.
>> I think it's a lot like how you hold a pencil when writing, Whatever
>> floats your boat.
>>
>> In this time of seclusion, and running out of stuff to watch on the
>> DVR, we watched a Titanic program on the Smithsonian channel on
>> Netflix. It turned out to be fairly superficial [I expected better
>> from the Smithsonian], and did not do credit to the role wireless
>> played in the disaster [the CW was from a code oscillator and did not
>> sound like the 5 KW synchronous spark TX in the other room]. Jack
>> Phillips was depicted sending with one finger on a somewhat J-38ish
>> looking key and sending Continental code while working Cape Race. If
>> memory serves me [often doesn't these days], ships in that era used
>> American Morse with North American stations. Again ... whatever works for you.
>>
>> 73,
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>>
>>> On 3/28/2020 3:47 PM, Jim Danehy wrote:
>>> Well I have been sending CW for 70 years now. I am not the most accomplished Morse operator you will copy. But I wonder why someone would think it is improper procedure to move your wrist ? I have watched musicians play guitars and bass instruments. They all move their wrists. I am not a musician myself. But when I do send Morse I get into a rhythm like musicians do. With 70 years of experience I have evolved into a competent operator.
>>>
>>> Many years ago my XYL told me that I also send Morse with my vocal cords when i send CW. She noted that when serving me food during my contesting. She was correct. My speed might be higher than the average Morse operator. I started with a straight key in 1950. Went to a Vibroplex bug in 1954. Up Graded to an electronic keyer in 1966. During that 16 year period I always moved my wrist. I probably own two dozen keys and paddles. I don’t get over 35 wpm very often. But if I find that rare operator who can copy QRQ I can crank it up. I can send with either hand too. The one thing I do is not think about what I am doing. It is all reflexes. I am a member of several CW oriented clubs. The German High Speed operators are excellent users of Morse. Google that organization.
>>>
>>> To say that moving your wrist is incorrect procedure might appeal to some. Not me. By the way I decided years ago to put a paddle on the floor and use my foot. Really! That allowed me to use both hands. I have not done that for some years. I think I can still do that. using your feet: LF operating. In my case it was RF (right foot). That was just a challenge. It did take some practice.
>>>
>>> I sure beats some of these current modes which do not require any operator skill.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Jim
>>> W9VNE/VA3VNE
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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k6dgw

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Carl Yaffey

Thanks Frank! Saved me looking for it. She has a swing not unlike but
more precise than the "Lake Erie Swing." Very easy copy. She left KPH
and became the operator on a US Naval cargo vessel for awhile. I
believe she retired from that after some health problems, I don't know
if she's still a regular at KPH.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/29/2020 2:39 PM, Carl Yaffey wrote:

> Beautiful!
>> On Mar 29, 2020, at 4:23 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>>
>>
>> This is the video you remembered. Denise has a unique sending style
>> and remarkably good -- and error free -- bug sending.
>>
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYhrSEERvbI
>>
>> 73
>> Frank
>> W3LPL
>

ANDY DURBIN

Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Jim Danehy

"the prosign for "Please repeat,"or "I will repeat."

I was taught over 55 years ago that "repeat" was an artillery fire control instruction that had no place in any communication except for artillery fire control. Surprising to me that IMI would be defined that way.

In UK Signals, the phone phrases were "say again", "I say again", and "say again words twice".

73,
Andy, k3wyc
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EricJ-2

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Jim Sheldon

I use a homebrew lefty bug 90% of the time, but use a paddle with my K2
when camping. Most of the time, without thinking, I find myself sending
with the paddle as if it were a bug. Manual dashes and automatic dots.
It took me awhile to even realize I was doing it.

Eric KE6US

On 3/29/2020 1:50 PM, Jim Sheldon wrote:
> I also taught myself (took a couple years to master) to switch back
> and forthe between paddles and the bug, a skill I maintain to this day
> and I'm turning 78 in a few days.
>
> Jim, W0EB
>
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EricJ-2

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Here's one example. No apparent squeeze keying. No wrist movement. Just
flying fingers. There are dozens of them on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_ZEwZzuqW0

Eric KE6US

On 3/29/2020 1:24 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
>> The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist action. Operators
>> learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it in any way. I've
>> noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube demonstrating Begali
>> (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with no wrist movement.
>
> The only place I know that Morse was sent using "fingers only" was with
> iambic/squeeze keying using an electronic keyer.
>
> I learned on a straight key 50+ years ago where I was taught to use the
> entire forearm. I moved to a bug where I was taught to roll the forearm
> (confirmed after the fact by my wife's grandfather who was a long time
> Western Electric landline operator/station manager) to a single paddle
> TO keyer and eventually to a dual paddle keyer. I still roll my wrist
> and use very little finger movement (obviously I don't "squeeze").
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2020-03-29 2:01 PM, EricJ wrote:
>> Sending Morse by foot isn't so rare. It's common enough that a Q-code
>> was developed especially for it.
>>
>> Most of us started on a straight key (62 years) where wrist action is
>> more important. The bug was developed to minimize destructive wrist
>> action. Operators learned to roll their wrist, but not really flex it
>> in any way. I've noticed most of the high speed ops on youtube
>> demonstrating Begali (what else?) keys use two fingers and thumb with
>> no wrist movement. I've only seen it on youtube as nobody I've known
>> since the Army ever sent that fast!
>>
>> Eric KE6US
>>
>
>
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Steve Witt

Re: Not moving your wrist sending CW ?

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

On 03/29, Andy Durbin wrote:
> "the prosign for "Please repeat,"or "I will repeat."
>
> I was taught over 55 years ago that "repeat" was an artillery fire
> control instruction that had no place in any communication except
> for artillery fire control. Surprising to me that IMI would be
> defined that way.
>
> In UK Signals, the phone phrases were "say again", "I say again",
> and "say again words twice".

Also true in U.S. Army radiotelephone procedure, at least how we
operated in the Signal Corps in the '70s and '80s when I was in. Never
heard or was taught 'words twice'. One would realize (with experience)
when key parts of the transmission should be said twice due to noise
or other difficulty with the channel, usually because of being asked
to 'say again' a few times.

Asking for a retransmission:
'say again your last transmission'
'say again all after'
'say again all before'

The response would be:
'I say again ...'

There is also 'I spell', when the word(s) weren't being received
correctly.

This was published in 'Allied Communications Pub 125: Communications
Instructions -- Radiotelephone Procedures' (ACP 125), so these
procedures should be somewhat standardized across NATO forces.

73,
Steve K6ZX

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