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Now that we know

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Robert McGwier

Now that we know

Now that we know I am an ancient computer person, I found a few links:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=email+exploder&btnG=Google+Search

Bob
N4HY

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Kevin Rock

Re: Now that we know

I never was a Vaxen. I've worked with dozens of operating systems over
the years but not that one. I live in a cloistered world mostly writing
my own software to go with the wire wrapped CPU and memory card kluge
works I have as boxes :) One day I may try VMS and see what I've been
missing. A break from the big three OSes is in order. I find Lin/Mac/Win
constricting. There were other much better OSes in the early days of mini
and micro computers.

Kevin. KD5ONS

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:49:52 +0000, Robert McGwier <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Now that we know I am an ancient computer person, I found a few links:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=email+exploder&btnG=Google+Search
>
> Bob
> N4HY

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Jessie Oberreuter

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Robert McGwier

Heh, another thing that I've seen happen quite frequently is the
re-invention of terms for many many common computer and network concepts
as the technology hits parts of the general population that have had no
introduction to prior terms. I was recently asked to join a friend's
yahoo group and found myself seeing a bunch of messages with subject lines
ending in (n/t).

"What does (n/t) mean?"

"No text -- It's for writing one-liner responses... so people know
not to open the message for nothing."

"Ah! The wheel turns again. Same as EOM (End of Message) or the
even more archaic EOL, EOT, and EOF. Kids these days ... no sense
of history :)."

'Course, then someone forces me to use Instant Messenger, and I drive them
nuts writing things like:

"that's disgusting!
:feels ill

... because back in the MUD/MUSH days, lines beginning with quotes were
"said", and lines beginning with colons were acted or emoted. These
features have not (yet?) (re)appeared in IM clients...

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Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

Re: Now that we know

Administrator

In reply to this post by Kevin Rock

The first use of Exploder I know was the TI Explorer Lisp Machine, which
was licensed from MIT in about 1981. People called them the "TI
Exploder." TI was the third licensee after Symbolics (the first .com
domain ever) and LMI, and they built variatoins of the MIT "CADR" Lisp
Machines.

There was an ARPA Net mailing list called INFO-EXPLORER@MC (back before
there were domains) and it was about the second dry-humor list, the
first being INFO-COBOL@MC. I think I have some INFO-EXPLODER archives
around.

On the LispM front, I went to the computer museum in Mountain View CA
two years ago and saw computers that were familiar, PDP-10, Apple II's,
etc But when I saw CADR-6 there...I remember when it was built, and my
girlfriend put together the front end interface and the network
controiller. I decided that a musem with computers whose serial numbers
I recognized was not a healthy place for me, and left.

Leigh / WA5ZNU
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Kevin Rock

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Jessie Oberreuter

Once upon a time in a day grown dim I could read a punch card from its
patterned holes. I had a summer job as a verifier. I was not yet
authorized to put holes in the cards, just see that the existing ones were
in the correct locations. Pay was great. That summer job paid for most
of my first semester in college. Books, tuition, room and board. A high
school graduate can no longer expect that kind of pay.
Then the next term I was punching holes in cards in FORTRAN. Put the
cards through a hole in the wall. Get a print out two or three days later
when the batch was run. When I built my first micro and toggled in my
first app I was ecstatic. Wow I can debug the same day! Then upgrading
to paper tapes. Years later I got to work with the first generation of
IBM micros. No hard drive yet. But then I got a 10 MB hard drive and my
world was huge. Currently I have a stack of three 160 GB drives. That is
nothing compared to what servers run these days. Then FORTRAN and COBOL
are still running many of the legacy applications. Only the GUI wrappers
have changed since the '70s. Makes me warm a fuzzy to read that old code
again.
IM would drive me bonkers. I'd probably started sending things like
QSK?? QRM QRM lid lid :) That would confuse them!

My current OS is Win2K. The splash screen says it was built on NT
technology. I thought NT meant New Technology? So I am supposed to read
it as "built on new technology technology"? Even the MS crowd cannot
remember its own acronyms over a few years.
Kevin.

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:07:47 -0700 (PDT), Jessie Oberreuter
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Heh, another thing that I've seen happen quite frequently is the
> re-invention of terms for many many common computer and network concepts
> as the technology hits parts of the general population that have had no
> introduction to prior terms. I was recently asked to join a friend's
> yahoo group and found myself seeing a bunch of messages with subject
> lines ending in (n/t).
>
> "What does (n/t) mean?"
>
> "No text -- It's for writing one-liner responses... so people know
> not to open the message for nothing."
>
> "Ah! The wheel turns again. Same as EOM (End of Message) or the
> even more archaic EOL, EOT, and EOF. Kids these days ... no sense
> of history :)."
>
> 'Course, then someone forces me to use Instant Messenger, and I drive
> them nuts writing things like:
>
> "that's disgusting!
> :feels ill
>
> ... because back in the MUD/MUSH days, lines beginning with quotes were
> "said", and lines beginning with colons were acted or emoted. These
> features have not (yet?) (re)appeared in IM clients...

--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 4/16/2005

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Kevin Rock

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

We have Powell's Books in Portland. I rarely go to the big store but hang
out in the Technical book store. There is a shelf of 'old' computers.
There are only two I have not written software for, built, or rebuilt.
The memories are good ones but I realize the kids working the store were
not born when those computers were first considered obsolete. That is a
bit frightening. Then I started studying electronics in the mid 60s with
tube gear. Transistors, FETs, ICs, and then finally CPUs. It moves a bit
rapidly don't you think?
Kevin. KD5ONS

Oh, Tom will be on the net so we'll be able to relay you in from where
ever you may be on the West Coast.
KJR

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:55:19 -0700, Leigh L Klotz, Jr. <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> The first use of Exploder I know was the TI Explorer Lisp Machine, which
> was licensed from MIT in about 1981. People called them the "TI
> Exploder." TI was the third licensee after Symbolics (the first .com
> domain ever) and LMI, and they built variatoins of the MIT "CADR" Lisp
> Machines.
>
> There was an ARPA Net mailing list called INFO-EXPLORER@MC (back before
> there were domains) and it was about the second dry-humor list, the
> first being INFO-COBOL@MC. I think I have some INFO-EXPLODER archives
> around.
>
> On the LispM front, I went to the computer museum in Mountain View CA
> two years ago and saw computers that were familiar, PDP-10, Apple II's,
> etc But when I saw CADR-6 there...I remember when it was built, and my
> girlfriend put together the front end interface and the network
> controiller. I decided that a musem with computers whose serial numbers
> I recognized was not a healthy place for me, and left.
>
> Leigh / WA5ZNU

Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

Re: Now that we know

Administrator

In reply to this post by Kevin Rock

Aha, you are using VMS then! NT is VMS: DEC sent David Cutler to
Microsoft to write a new OS for the Alpha. MSFT put the WIN16 and later
WIN32 API on top, but it's very much like VMS inside.
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 3:04 pm, Kevin Rock wrote:
> My current OS is Win2K. The splash screen says it was built on NT
> technology. I thought NT meant New Technology? So I am supposed to
> read it as "built on new technology technology"?
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Kevin Rock

Re: Now that we know

I thought it was all CP/M underneath ;) Now the latest Mac OS is Linux
underneath with Apple's APIs stapled on top. Is there nothing new under
the sun?

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:09:50 -0700, Leigh L Klotz, Jr. <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Aha, you are using VMS then! NT is VMS: DEC sent David Cutler to
> Microsoft to write a new OS for the Alpha. MSFT put the WIN16 and later
> WIN32 API on top, but it's very much like VMS inside.
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 3:04 pm, Kevin Rock wrote:
>> My current OS is Win2K. The splash screen says it was built on NT
>> technology. I thought NT meant New Technology? So I am supposed to
>> read it as "built on new technology technology"?

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Mike Morrow-3

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Robert McGwier

Kevin wrote:

> The memories are good ones but I realize the kids working
> the store were not born when those computers were first
> considered obsolete.

I spent many a happy evening with Ga. Tech's Univac 1108 scientific mainframe 35 years ago, and their older but clever stack machine known as the Burroughs B5500.

Later, as a EE grad student at U of Arkansas after leaving the Navy, I learned about IBM's famous System 360/370. How many people today remember the "Houston Automatic Spooler Program (HASP)" or would understand a bumpersticker that read "Honk if you love JCL!"

Today, we are most of us computer appliance operators, who learn application programs, but know little about the hardware and firmware beneath the application.

73,
Mike / KK5F
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David A. Belsley

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Kevin Rock

On Apr 17, 2005, at 6:04 PM, Kevin Rock wrote:

> My current OS is Win2K.

Boy, Kevin, you'd think in all those years you could have gotten
further than that.

best wishes,

dave belsley, w1euy

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Charlie Hicks

RE: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

Walking down memory lane here...

I started on an IBM 1620 writing Fortran in the late 60's. You first had to
punch the source cards/deck then load the compiler deck then run the source
deck. It output to an object deck (card punch). You then ran an absolute
loader then loaded the object deck and hoped something was output on the TTY
or punch.

I started building 8008 kits in the early 70's then finally got into a Z80
system. First ones I built had no OS, no floppy, no tape, no hard disk. I
toggled in everything through the front panel in machine code. You learned
the system real well that way! I thought I was doing great when i 1976 or
so I got a North Star 5-1/4" floppy with a Basic disk OS.

I later worked on PDP-8's, then PDP-10's and PDP-11's running RSX, RT-11 and
finally RSTS/E. Then came the VAX 780 and VMS, then clusters (in 1983),
then the Alpha later. Microsoft cluster still don't hold a candle to the
VMS clusters DEC had in the 80's.

I wrote a lot of Macro on the all the DEC machines and used to pour over the
VMS OS source code (VMS used to come with microfiche with the OS source on
it). If you look at the OS primitives and then look at NT you'd see a LOT
of similar structures and OS design similarities - even down to the naming
of lots of things. You're right - Cutler brought a lot of that over.
Cutler left DEC for Microsoft after DEC killed a big hush-hush project
working called Ruby (I believe) - a new architecture and new OS. I had a
good friend workikng with Cutler designing the new OS. It would have blown
away anything in it's time. But they DEC killed it. Cutler left shortly
after.

DEC blew many, many opportunities in networking, OS architecture, etc. If
they could have figured out how to market what they had they'd be going
strong today.

Talk about big systems and OS's way ahead of their time - take a look at the
DEC-10 and DEC-20 systems. Compuserve used to run all their online users on
these machines. They had true distributive processing back in the 60's and
70's.

Could you imagine what OpenVMS with it's awesone clustering abilities could
do on today's Pentium-class processors?

I have worked on DEC systems since 1978 and worked for DEC for 7 years as a
Systems + Network Consultant. I still support an OpenVMS system for one of
my clients. I get so tired of the bloated Microsoft code.... but it pays
the bills!

I'll step off memory lane now anbd back to radios....

Charlie K0CKH

Aha, you are using VMS then! NT is VMS: DEC sent David Cutler to
Microsoft to write a new OS for the Alpha. MSFT put the WIN16 and later
WIN32 API on top, but it's very much like VMS inside.
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 3:04 pm, Kevin Rock wrote:
> My current OS is Win2K. The splash screen says it was built on NT
> technology. I thought NT meant New Technology? So I am supposed to
> read it as "built on new technology technology"?

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N8LP

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

You guys bring up memories. I think I was a bit behind you. My first
experience at school was with an IBM 360 at the Univ. of Mich., running
a proprietary language known as MAD (Michigan Algorith Decoder), plus
the usual COBOL/SNOBOL/Fortran, etc. I remember punch cards and batch
output (what a pain), but I was able to cheat because I had a EE class
where the prof gave us access to his account using the TeleType Model 28
terminals in the EE bldg., so needless to say, I didn't use up much of
my allotted time for the computer classes to get my programs debugged ;-)

My first experience with a mini was with a Data General Nova II, with
paper tape I/O (plus front panel switches, of course). The thing had 16k
of core memory, and a "huge" hard drive of 64k. The drive weighed about
100 lbs, and was pressurized with helium. We had a big tank of
industrial grade helium that we could re-pressurize with when we had to
open it up for maintenance... and of course we all had to inhale it and
talk funny.

Larry N8LP

Mike Morrow wrote:

>Kevin wrote:
>
>
>
>>The memories are good ones but I realize the kids working
>>the store were not born when those computers were first
>>considered obsolete.
>>
>>
>
>I spent many a happy evening with Ga. Tech's Univac 1108 scientific mainframe 35 years ago, and their older but clever stack machine known as the Burroughs B5500.
>
>Later, as a EE grad student at U of Arkansas after leaving the Navy, I learned about IBM's famous System 360/370. How many people today remember the "Houston Automatic Spooler Program (HASP)" or would understand a bumpersticker that read "Honk if you love JCL!"
>
>Today, we are most of us computer appliance operators, who learn application programs, but know little about the hardware and firmware beneath the application.
>
>73,
>Mike / KK5F
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
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>
>
>
>

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Kevin Rock

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Forth Love ? IF Honk :)

On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:36:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00), Mike Morrow
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Honk if you love JCL!"

>
> 73,
> Mike / KK5F

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Tom Althoff

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Interesting thread! Let me put my 2 cents in before it gets shut down...
At Prudential Ins. Co in Newark NJ we ran ASP on a 370. ASP stood for
"Attached Support Processor" and the 370 controlled two 360's.
We were force to learn JCL one night because our shift supervisor didn't
like operator's standing around waiting for tapes to be mounted and thought
it would be more productive to train us..
I used to know how to IPL the 370 and might be able to dial in F980
<interrupt> <start> <start> to recover from a machine halt on a 360.
We ran "load and go" Fortran IV on a GE machine at Newark College of
Engineering. Hand in the cards one day...get a printout the next. OR hand
in the cards one day and get boxes of paper back from a core dump with an
angry note from the department head!

Its nice to know I'm not the only old fart on this list!

73 de Tom K2TA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Morrow" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Mail" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Now that we know

> Kevin wrote:
>
> > The memories are good ones but I realize the kids working
> > the store were not born when those computers were first
> > considered obsolete.
>
> I spent many a happy evening with Ga. Tech's Univac 1108 scientific
mainframe 35 years ago, and their older but clever stack machine known as
the Burroughs B5500.
>
> Later, as a EE grad student at U of Arkansas after leaving the Navy, I
learned about IBM's famous System 360/370. How many people today remember
the "Houston Automatic Spooler Program (HASP)" or would understand a
bumpersticker that read "Honk if you love JCL!"
>
> Today, we are most of us computer appliance operators, who learn
application programs, but know little about the hardware and firmware
beneath the application.

>
> 73,
> Mike / KK5F
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Bill Coleman-2

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Kevin Rock

On Apr 17, 2005, at 6:27 PM, Kevin Rock wrote:

> I thought it was all CP/M underneath ;) Now the latest Mac OS is
> Linux underneath with Apple's APIs stapled on top. Is there nothing
> new under the sun?

The "latest" MacOS (MacOS X has been out of 4 years now....) has Unix
underneath. Not Linux. It is BSD Unix under the covers.

When someone asked at the Apple WorldWide Developers Conference, "Which
BSD distribution does MacOS X draw from" about four years ago, Apple
Engineers answered, "All of them."

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email]
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
-- Wilbur Wright, 1901

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Dan Barker

RE: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Kevin Rock

According to IBM (big Add in Computerworld, when NT came out after Big Blue
and Uncle Billy split over OS/2), in HUGE LETTERS, they proclaimed it meant
Nice Try.

Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456

<snip>
I thought NT meant New Technology?
</snip>

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Steven Pituch

[OT] Now that we know

In reply to this post by Tom Althoff

Hey Tom,
I thought it was an RCA Spectra (rasberry colored) in the basement of Weston
Hall (of Weston meter fame).

Tom said:
>>We ran "load and go" Fortran IV on a GE machine at Newark College of
Engineering.

Steve, W2MY
NCE BSCE '74
NCE MSCE '78

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Craig Rairdin

RE: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Tom Althoff

> Its nice to know I'm not the only old fart on this list!

Wake up, dude. It's ham radio: We're all old farts.

Craig
NZ0R

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Stephen W. Kercel

RE: Now that we know

Craig:

Funny you should mention that. In Tennessee, between Knoxville and Oak
Ridge there is a town called Farragut. Some years back, when I lived in
Tennessee, a number of us were participants in an informal group that we
called the Farragut Amateur Radio Transmitting Society.

73,

Steve
AA4AK

At 08:13 PM 4/17/2005 -0500, you wrote:

> > Its nice to know I'm not the only old fart on this list!
>
>Wake up, dude. It's ham radio: We're all old farts.
>
>Craig
>NZ0R
>
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Vic K2VCO

Re: Now that we know

In reply to this post by Kevin Rock

Kevin Rock wrote:

> Forth Love ? IF Honk :)

Er, I think Forth Love = IF Honk

The definition of ? is

: ? @ . ;

And of course, we need a simple TTY honk:

: Honk 7 emit 10000 0 DO LOOP ;

--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco

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123