Numbers, Numbers, Numbers
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Some people here on the reflector have already stated this...but what do the numbers from the Sherwood web site really mean? Are these numbers so close together that you just start picking nits? Two guys want to buy a vehicle. One went to Ford, the other went to Chevy. (You can see where this is going) They can look at the vehicle...sit in it...turn the knobs on the dash...but they cannot run the engine or take it out for a test spin. (Just like we cannot take a rig on a test spin - we can look at them in hamfests, but we can't take one home for a week to really give it a test drive.) So, these two guys take a look at the specs between the two cars. They have the "numbers." The only real difference is 1 inch on the wheel base, one car has 5 more cubic inches of displacement, and one has 10 more horse-power than the other. They both have nice paint, finish, chrome, and all the basics one needs for a car...4 wheels, steering wheel, AC, power this and that, and automatic transmission. Just a few things are different. Price is different...the Ford cost $5,000 more than the Chevy. So one guy picks the Ford and the other pics the Chevy? Why? One certainly costs less but the specs are "oh so close" As ham radio operators...are we that competitive that every DB of this or that matters? What do the numbers really mean? All this is lost to me because of "the noise of the numbers." Where does operating skill come in? Now, look on down the Sherwood list and you see some older rigs coming in pretty good. Have we lost perspective in this number numbing battle for the best receiver? The Drake 4C looks pretty good. The 765 looks good too. >From my perspective...the K3 is the best rig I have ever owned...it beats my Ocean Hopper, my NC57, my HR-10B, my HW100, my TS520, 820, 830, 850, my ..... and the list goes one. Remember from whence we have come! Numbers....the din is deafening! Lee - K0WA In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine? Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind. - J. Wolf ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Playing devil's advocate here folks have often lauded the K3 for being at
the top of the Sherwood list so it was fine to "go by the numbers" then. So we should not discount them now. To me...the two radios seem almost dead even. That said....I still prefer the K3 by far due to it's modular design, ease of repair (simple board swapping), service, feature growth and the dedication of the owners and engineers who brought this fine radio to life. I suspect that when customers report glitches on the FT5K it will be quite awhile before new FW is available for download. Oh....there's the money thing too. :) 73...enjoy your radio..whatever you have.... Greg AB7R On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Lee Buller <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Some people here on the reflector have already stated this...but what do > the > numbers from the Sherwood web site really mean? Are these numbers so close > together that you just start picking nits? > > Two guys want to buy a vehicle. One went to Ford, the other went to Chevy. > (You can see where this is going) > > They can look at the vehicle...sit in it...turn the knobs on the dash...but > they > cannot run the engine or take it out for a test spin. (Just like we cannot > take > a rig on a test spin - we can look at them in hamfests, but we can't take > one > home for a week to really give it a test drive.) > > So, these two guys take a look at the specs between the two cars. They > have the > "numbers." The only real difference is 1 inch on the wheel base, one car > has 5 > more cubic inches of displacement, and one has 10 more horse-power than the > other. > > > They both have nice paint, finish, chrome, and all the basics one needs for > a > car...4 wheels, steering wheel, AC, power this and that, and automatic > transmission. Just a few things are different. > > Price is different...the Ford cost $5,000 more than the Chevy. > > So one guy picks the Ford and the other pics the Chevy? Why? One > certainly > costs less but the specs are "oh so close" > > As ham radio operators...are we that competitive that every DB of this or > that > matters? What do the numbers really mean? All this is lost to me because > of > "the noise of the numbers." Where does operating skill come in? > > Now, look on down the Sherwood list and you see some older rigs coming in > pretty > good. Have we lost perspective in this number numbing battle for the best > receiver? The Drake 4C looks pretty good. The 765 looks good too. > > >From my perspective...the K3 is the best rig I have ever owned...it beats > my > Ocean Hopper, my NC57, my HR-10B, my HW100, my TS520, 820, 830, 850, my > ..... > and the list goes one. Remember from whence we have come! > > Numbers....the din is deafening! > > Lee - K0WA > > > In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you > don't > have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't > find any > Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is > Common > Sense divine? > > Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my > mind. > - J. Wolf > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Numbers, Numbers, Numbers
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I could not even think to use a FT5K in my RV or portable.
My K3 is just perfect for that. Are we many using K3 or K2 in RVing? 73 de Claude VE2FK ----- Original Message ----- From: GREG FICHER To: Lee Buller Cc: Elecraft Reflector Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Numbers, Numbers, Numbers Playing devil's advocate here folks have often lauded the K3 for being at the top of the Sherwood list so it was fine to "go by the numbers" then. So we should not discount them now. To me...the two radios seem almost dead even. That said....I still prefer the K3 by far due to it's modular design, ease of repair (simple board swapping), service, feature growth and the dedication of the owners and engineers who brought this fine radio to life. I suspect that when customers report glitches on the FT5K it will be quite awhile before new FW is available for download. Oh....there's the money thing too. :) 73...enjoy your radio..whatever you have.... Greg AB7R ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Numbers, Numbers, Numbers
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In reply to this post by Greg - AB7R
> Playing devil's advocate here folks have often lauded the K3 for > being at the top of the Sherwood list so it was fine to "go by > the numbers" then. So we should not discount them now. I don't think anyone is (or should be) "discounting the numbers." Numbers are the only objective standard available for evaluating two similar products. However, one can't simply look at one parameter - particularly 2 KHz IMDDR3 as the "only" parameter than matters. In the case of the FT-5000 vs. K3, 2 KHz IMDDR is a "dead heat" (effected by the skirt selectivity of the first IF filter) but other factors including filter ultimate rejection and LO noise make the K3 the overall winner. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 12/2/2010 10:21 AM, GREG FICHER wrote: > Playing devil's advocate here folks have often lauded the K3 for being at > the top of the Sherwood list so it was fine to "go by the numbers" then. So > we should not discount them now. To me...the two radios seem almost dead > even. That said....I still prefer the K3 by far due to it's modular design, > ease of repair (simple board swapping), service, feature growth and the > dedication of the owners and engineers who brought this fine radio to life. > > I suspect that when customers report glitches on the FT5K it will be quite > awhile before new FW is available for download. > > Oh....there's the money thing too. :) > > 73...enjoy your radio..whatever you have.... > > Greg > AB7R > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Lee Buller<[hidden email]> wrote: > >> >> Some people here on the reflector have already stated this...but what do >> the >> numbers from the Sherwood web site really mean? Are these numbers so close >> together that you just start picking nits? >> >> Two guys want to buy a vehicle. One went to Ford, the other went to Chevy. >> (You can see where this is going) >> >> They can look at the vehicle...sit in it...turn the knobs on the dash...but >> they >> cannot run the engine or take it out for a test spin. (Just like we cannot >> take >> a rig on a test spin - we can look at them in hamfests, but we can't take >> one >> home for a week to really give it a test drive.) >> >> So, these two guys take a look at the specs between the two cars. They >> have the >> "numbers." The only real difference is 1 inch on the wheel base, one car >> has 5 >> more cubic inches of displacement, and one has 10 more horse-power than the >> other. >> >> >> They both have nice paint, finish, chrome, and all the basics one needs for >> a >> car...4 wheels, steering wheel, AC, power this and that, and automatic >> transmission. Just a few things are different. >> >> Price is different...the Ford cost $5,000 more than the Chevy. >> >> So one guy picks the Ford and the other pics the Chevy? Why? One >> certainly >> costs less but the specs are "oh so close" >> >> As ham radio operators...are we that competitive that every DB of this or >> that >> matters? What do the numbers really mean? All this is lost to me because >> of >> "the noise of the numbers." Where does operating skill come in? >> >> Now, look on down the Sherwood list and you see some older rigs coming in >> pretty >> good. Have we lost perspective in this number numbing battle for the best >> receiver? The Drake 4C looks pretty good. The 765 looks good too. >> >> > From my perspective...the K3 is the best rig I have ever owned...it beats >> my >> Ocean Hopper, my NC57, my HR-10B, my HW100, my TS520, 820, 830, 850, my >> ..... >> and the list goes one. Remember from whence we have come! >> >> Numbers....the din is deafening! >> >> Lee - K0WA >> >> >> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you >> don't >> have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't >> find any >> Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is >> Common >> Sense divine? >> >> Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my >> mind. >> - J. Wolf >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net
Numbers are, at best, a data point. Back in the late 1970s I was a
reporter for an electronics industry trade newspaper. At the Consumer Electronics Show in Vegas, that year, I visited an area called "esotheric audio." In one room there was a very sophisticated looking turntable, preamplifier, amplifier and speaker set up. Between the speakers, on a table, was an oscilloscope. The guy told me the THD was 0.1 % to which I replied "but the human ear cannot distinguish a THD much below 1 %." And he replied, "of course, you can't hear it, that's why we have the oscilloscope." The price for the system was in excess of $10,000. My point is numbers are not the "be all, end all." I've had Yaesu gear, and I remember, with horror, my bad experiences with Yaesu service. I also remember how bad the audio monitor sounded when I operated phone. Last year, I sold two Yaesus and bought two K3s. Trust me, had I known there would be an FT-5000 coming, and its specs were comparable to K3, I would not have deferred the purchase and considered the 5000. 73, Rob K6RB > > Some people here on the reflector have already stated this...but what do > the > numbers from the Sherwood web site really mean? Are these numbers so > close > together that you just start picking nits? > > Two guys want to buy a vehicle. One went to Ford, the other went to > Chevy. > (You can see where this is going) > > They can look at the vehicle...sit in it...turn the knobs on the > dash...but they > cannot run the engine or take it out for a test spin. (Just like we > cannot take > a rig on a test spin - we can look at them in hamfests, but we can't take > one > home for a week to really give it a test drive.) > > So, these two guys take a look at the specs between the two cars. They > have the > "numbers." The only real difference is 1 inch on the wheel base, one car > has 5 > more cubic inches of displacement, and one has 10 more horse-power than > the > other. > > > They both have nice paint, finish, chrome, and all the basics one needs > for a > car...4 wheels, steering wheel, AC, power this and that, and automatic > transmission. Just a few things are different. > > Price is different...the Ford cost $5,000 more than the Chevy. > > So one guy picks the Ford and the other pics the Chevy? Why? One > certainly > costs less but the specs are "oh so close" > > As ham radio operators...are we that competitive that every DB of this or > that > matters? What do the numbers really mean? All this is lost to me because > of > "the noise of the numbers." Where does operating skill come in? > > Now, look on down the Sherwood list and you see some older rigs coming in > pretty > good. Have we lost perspective in this number numbing battle for the best > receiver? The Drake 4C looks pretty good. The 765 looks good too. > >>From my perspective...the K3 is the best rig I have ever owned...it beats >> my > Ocean Hopper, my NC57, my HR-10B, my HW100, my TS520, 820, 830, 850, my > ..... > and the list goes one. Remember from whence we have come! > > Numbers....the din is deafening! > > Lee - K0WA > > > In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you > don't > have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't > find any > Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is > Common > Sense divine? > > Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my > mind. > - J. Wolf > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net
Well, at some point making a choice becomes less about the specifications
and test results, and more about features and personal preference. And muddying the waters even further is that the lines in the sand that separate performance and need from preference is different for all of us. Here's an analogy that I think applies: for certain people, purchasing an extremely high-performance car is beneficial. They may, for example, live in a location (near an Autobahn, maybe?) where sheer speed and acceleration can make the difference. I happen to drive a Volkswagen diesel car -- a vehicle not known for extreme performance, but it sure is cheap to drive on the Interstate at highway speeds. While a peppy sports car may be "better" in many ways, does that make my VW diesel a poor performer or a poor choice on my part? No, of course not! The "performance" I'm looking for is fuel economy and comfort. Similarly, in the world of ham equipment there's a variety of reasons to own transceiver or another, and often it isn't because one radio is "better" than another in test results. For example, although I build a lot of Elecraft kits for others and admire every product they make, my primary radio is a Ten Tec Omni VII (my portable is of course a KX1). I chose the Omni VII not because I thought it was superior to the K3, but at the time I was shopping and ready to spend, the K3's were new and on a significant backorder. I considered selling my Omni-VII to "upgrade" to the K3 at one point, but in the final analysis I couldn't justify the cash outlay because the differences in performance would serve no purpose to me. So, for some the numbers matter. For others, not so much and sometimes for viable reasons. In the end, I think that Elecraft wins hands-down but not solely because of the high performance numbers. It's because they are a top-notch, kick-butt company that cares about every customer and every build. If I have a problem in a build or a missing part, I know where to call and that the part will be on the way shortly. If it was Y or K, or I we were dealing with, I think their parts and service department would care less. Steve, KW4H On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Lee Buller <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Some people here on the reflector have already stated this...but what do > the > numbers from the Sherwood web site really mean? Are these numbers so close > together that you just start picking nits? > > Two guys want to buy a vehicle. One went to Ford, the other went to Chevy. > (You can see where this is going) > > They can look at the vehicle...sit in it...turn the knobs on the dash...but > they > cannot run the engine or take it out for a test spin. (Just like we cannot > take > a rig on a test spin - we can look at them in hamfests, but we can't take > one > home for a week to really give it a test drive.) > > So, these two guys take a look at the specs between the two cars. They > have the > "numbers." The only real difference is 1 inch on the wheel base, one car > has 5 > more cubic inches of displacement, and one has 10 more horse-power than the > other. > > > They both have nice paint, finish, chrome, and all the basics one needs for > a > car...4 wheels, steering wheel, AC, power this and that, and automatic > transmission. Just a few things are different. > > Price is different...the Ford cost $5,000 more than the Chevy. > > So one guy picks the Ford and the other pics the Chevy? Why? One > certainly > costs less but the specs are "oh so close" > > As ham radio operators...are we that competitive that every DB of this or > that > matters? What do the numbers really mean? All this is lost to me because > of > "the noise of the numbers." Where does operating skill come in? > > Now, look on down the Sherwood list and you see some older rigs coming in > pretty > good. Have we lost perspective in this number numbing battle for the best > receiver? The Drake 4C looks pretty good. The 765 looks good too. > > >From my perspective...the K3 is the best rig I have ever owned...it beats > my > Ocean Hopper, my NC57, my HR-10B, my HW100, my TS520, 820, 830, 850, my > ..... > and the list goes one. Remember from whence we have come! > > Numbers....the din is deafening! > > Lee - K0WA > > > In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you > don't > have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't > find any > Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is > Common > Sense divine? > > Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my > mind. > - J. Wolf > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Greg - AB7R
Funny how that works, isn't it?
--- On Thu, 12/2/10, GREG FICHER <[hidden email]> Playing devil's advocate here folks have often lauded the K3 for being at the top of the Sherwood list so it was fine to "go by the numbers" then. So we should not discount them now. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k6rb
On 12/2/2010 8:55 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> The guy told me the THD was 0.1 % to which I > replied "but the human ear cannot distinguish a THD much below 1 %." And > he replied, "of course, you can't hear it, that's why we have the > oscilloscope." The price for the system was in excess of $10,000. As an audio professional (and a Fellow of the AES), I can tell you that THD is a poor indicator of equipment performance or audibility. It's not that the numbers don't matter, but rather that simple-minded descriptors like THD are not useful. The human ear DOES hear harmonic distortion at levels as low as 0.02%, but it depends on the ORDER of the harmonic (that is, which harmonic). The second harmonic can be somewhat pleasing, and some studio EFX boxes add second harmonic. The control that adjusts the level of the second harmonic is called "warmth." In general, orders of harmonics that relate to western musical scales (octaves) are least objectionable, and high orders are most objectionable. Third order harmonic distortion is no pleasant. It is those higher orders that are audible at low levels. Also, any non-linear process produces both harmonics and intermod. Some intermod products are also quite audible at fairly low levels, while others that are common to western musical scales are less audible. 73, Jim Brown K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net
It's been a long time since I had statistics in college. However, in medical studies, when numbers are presented comparing 2 outcomes, a Chi-square test (or Fisher's Exact test if the sample is small) is run to determine if the difference is statistically significant. Is there something similar that could or should be done when comparing receiver specs? Do all the numbers you techies are comparing have real-world value, or do some of them make no difference in our day to day operating?
Barry W2UP |
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