OT - 6 meter beacon clicks followup ????

[callen1155]

Hello,

A while back I asked a question about receiving key clicks on 6 meters due to a ham's beacon a mile away.  Here's the link:    http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/cw-clicking-td5011614.html
 
Honestly, those annoying, LOUD clicks make 6 meter operating impossible at times (can't copy weak signals). Last night I was so fed up I just shut off the radio and sent elecraft a message to cancel my 6 meter PR-6 pre-amp order which was on back order.

So yesterday I wrote the owner of the beacon a very polite email and explained how severe the problem was. Here is some of what I said:

"The reason I'm writing has to do with your beacon. Basically I can't get away from it. I have key clicks in my receiver all the way from 50.000 cw up past 50.170 SSB. I hear them regardless of the frequency I'm on. And I mean loud annoying key clicks. I can literally copy your beacon's cw message when I'm up in the SSB portion of the band.  I receive the beacon at S9 +25 dB on 50.060 but my poor S meter never gets a rest from the beacon. My S meter constantly jumps from S3 to S5 when the beacon transmits, even when I'm up on the SSB frequencies. I can't even get an S meter reading on a weak signal station due to your beacon acting on the S meter. As you could imagine, this makes operating very difficult, very annoying, and for a truly weak signal I'm trying to pull out of the noise floor, it makes it impossible. I have to try and 'deafen' my K3 with excessive Noise Blanking and DSP settings etc to the point where I can't hear the 'weak signals'. Both antennas experience the same affect."

Before I post his entire response below my question is do I have a valid complaint to take to the FCC or am I just wasting my time and need to learn to be content :

His response:
"Hi Chuck AF4XK,
I am sorry that you are experiencing problems on your receive. I have
had the beacon on 6 meters in operation since 1992 and it is within
the 3 khz. band plan for beacons. I have had it checked  on a
$25,000.00 spectrum analyzer to make sure it was where it needed to
be. All beacons have to be checked every year to check for
performance. This 6m beacon is centered on 50.060 with a constant null
on either end. Being a member of the Intercontinental Beacon
Commision, I have to make sure it is within specs to keep it up for
propagation. I have it send in 1 watt, 10 watts, and 45 watts for the
purpose of overseas propagation. Since all beacons are turned off
during ARRL contests. I usually turn this off according to the rules
of each contest, and it resumes operation after the contest is
complete.
I also enjoy the voice SSB portion of six, and PSK31 but since the
beacon is located at this location, I am receiving the same clicking
and annoying spread that you are getting and more. So when contests
are going on, I jump on six for the short time I can use it also. I
have tried to find a site to move it so it won't interfere with the
hams in this area. But I haven't found one as of yet. Still looking
though. Don ( N8DDK ) and Jack ( N6UYB ) down the street less than 1/4
mile, are both having the same problem you are having with the band
wipe out. And both are glad when it is turned off during contests. I
wish that there is something I could do to prevent this, but you are
not alone. Being it runs 24/7 for the watchers of propagation for
hams, and is totally funded by me for this purpose, this is my
donation to the ham community. If you know of a location that I could
move it to and not interfere with any other hams that wants to operate
on six meter, let me know. I would be glad to move it.
Richard --- KD4NMI/B"

Is this in the spirit of amateur radio??

One thing further, I just purchased a IC-910H for satellite operation (sorry elecraft, i wanted to give you the business but ...) and now I'm VERY CONCERNED about his 2 meter beacon on 144.300

Thanks for any further advice.

chuck
af4xk

[Rick Stealey]

On his listing on QRZ.com it indicates he is running an FT690 and a "homebrew" GE amplifier
for his beacon.  Both are bad news.  Yaesu's are not known for having clean keying, and running
it into a (presumably) class C amplifier would make it worse.
He sure thinks he is doing the ham fraternity a good deed, well intentioned.  He is
just highly uninformed from a technical standpoint.
Suggestion - you MIGHT ask him if he would run a test with you and run the rig barefoot.
If that cleans it up then you at least have something to discuss with him on a technical
level - the possible replacement of the amp.
It doesn't look like he has much modern equipment.  Any way you might talk him into
replacing the old Yaesu with a K3?  (yeah, right).
GL
Rick  K2XT

     
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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> Before I post his entire response below my question is do I have a
> valid complaint to take to the FCC or am I just wasting my time and
> need to learn to be content :

I doubt that the FCC would do much since the clicks are in band.

KD4NMI's claim that the problem is location doesn't pass the "smell
test".  I have a strong (KW) station on six meters within 1/4 mile
of me and only hear clicks from him when he's within a few KHz.

His QRZ page indicates he is using a Yaesu FT-690 and a modified GE
100W amplifier for the beacon.  Yaesu rigs of the FT-690 vintage were
not known for being "clean" with regards to clicks even when barefoot.
They were designed for low power portable operation.

In addition, unless the GE "amplifier" (most likely the transmitter
strip out of an old low band mobile rig) has been heavily modified for
class AB operation, it is running "hard" class C which will make any
clicks even worse due to the inherent limiting action.  The limiting
will cause existing clicks to be amplified more than the "desired" CW
*and* sharpen the edges of the waveform which generates even more
clicks.

If you have or can borrow a P3 (or spectrum analyzer that covers six) I
suggest taking pictures (screen capture) showing the alleged clicks and
contacting ARRL for assistance.  While there may be nothing that can be
done via the FCC, the "persuasion" from the ARRL Amateur Auxiliary
might convince him to clean up this act.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV



On 6/11/2012 8:05 AM, callen1155 wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> A while back I asked a question about receiving key clicks on 6 meters due
> to a ham's beacon a mile away.  Here's the link:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/cw-clicking-td5011614.html
>
> Honestly, those annoying, LOUD clicks make 6 meter operating impossible at
> times (can't copy weak signals). Last night I was so fed up I just shut off
> the radio and sent elecraft a message to cancel my 6 meter PR-6 pre-amp
> order which was on back order.
>
> So yesterday I wrote the owner of the beacon a very polite email and
> explained how severe the problem was. Here is some of what I said:
>
> "The reason I'm writing has to do with your beacon. Basically I can't get
> away from it. I have key clicks in my receiver all the way from 50.000 cw up
> past 50.170 SSB. I hear them regardless of the frequency I'm on. And I mean
> loud annoying key clicks. I can literally copy your beacon's cw message when
> I'm up in the SSB portion of the band.  I receive the beacon at S9 +25 dB on
> 50.060 but my poor S meter never gets a rest from the beacon. My S meter
> constantly jumps from S3 to S5 when the beacon transmits, even when I'm up
> on the SSB frequencies. I can't even get an S meter reading on a weak signal
> station due to your beacon acting on the S meter. As you could imagine, this
> makes operating very difficult, very annoying, and for a truly weak signal
> I'm trying to pull out of the noise floor, it makes it impossible. I have to
> try and 'deafen' my K3 with excessive Noise Blanking and DSP settings etc to
> the point where I can't hear the 'weak signals'. Both antennas experience
> the same affect."
>
> Before I post his entire response below my question is do I have a valid
> complaint to take to the FCC or am I just wasting my time and need to learn
> to be content :
>
> His response:
> "Hi Chuck AF4XK,
> I am sorry that you are experiencing problems on your receive. I have
> had the beacon on 6 meters in operation since 1992 and it is within
> the 3 khz. band plan for beacons. I have had it checked  on a
> $25,000.00 spectrum analyzer to make sure it was where it needed to
> be. All beacons have to be checked every year to check for
> performance. This 6m beacon is centered on 50.060 with a constant null
> on either end. Being a member of the Intercontinental Beacon
> Commision, I have to make sure it is within specs to keep it up for
> propagation. I have it send in 1 watt, 10 watts, and 45 watts for the
> purpose of overseas propagation. Since all beacons are turned off
> during ARRL contests. I usually turn this off according to the rules
> of each contest, and it resumes operation after the contest is
> complete.
> I also enjoy the voice SSB portion of six, and PSK31 but since the
> beacon is located at this location, I am receiving the same clicking
> and annoying spread that you are getting and more. So when contests
> are going on, I jump on six for the short time I can use it also. I
> have tried to find a site to move it so it won't interfere with the
> hams in this area. But I haven't found one as of yet. Still looking
> though. Don ( N8DDK ) and Jack ( N6UYB ) down the street less than 1/4
> mile, are both having the same problem you are having with the band
> wipe out. And both are glad when it is turned off during contests. I
> wish that there is something I could do to prevent this, but you are
> not alone. Being it runs 24/7 for the watchers of propagation for
> hams, and is totally funded by me for this purpose, this is my
> donation to the ham community. If you know of a location that I could
> move it to and not interfere with any other hams that wants to operate
> on six meter, let me know. I would be glad to move it.
> Richard --- KD4NMI/B"
>
> Is this in the spirit of amateur radio??
>
> One thing further, I just purchased a IC-910H for satellite operation (sorry
> elecraft, i wanted to give you the business but ...) and now I'm VERY
> CONCERNED about his 2 meter beacon on 144.300
>
> Thanks for any further advice.
>
> chuck
> af4xk
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/OT-6-meter-beacon-clicks-followup-tp7557465.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

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[Vic Rosenthal]

Obviously he has not used the expensive spectrum analyzer to look at more than "where it's
supposed to be". Maybe he has done this in a key-down condition, which would of course not
show the clicks.

I would send him a letter -- or get a local ARRL OO to do so -- explaining the
relationship of the shape of keyed elements to clicks, pointing out what others have said
about his exciter and amplifier. I would explain the procedure for checking this with a
spectrum analyzer -- while keying! -- or even an oscilloscope or just a receiver. He seems
to believe that the clicks are unavoidable at his power level, which is total nonsense.

What he is doing is not "good amateur practice" and therefore does violate FCC rules. In
fact, if you can hear him in the SSB portion of the band, his clicks probably extend out
of the band on the low side.

If the above doesn't work, then yes, I would complain to the FCC. But if he is a
reasonable guy, he should be open to listening to a technical explanation of what is wrong
and how to fix it.

On 6/11/2012 5:05 AM, callen1155 wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> A while back I asked a question about receiving key clicks on 6 meters due
> to a ham's beacon a mile away.  Here's the link:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/cw-clicking-td5011614.html
>
> Honestly, those annoying, LOUD clicks make 6 meter operating impossible at
> times (can't copy weak signals). Last night I was so fed up I just shut off
> the radio and sent elecraft a message to cancel my 6 meter PR-6 pre-amp
> order which was on back order.
>
> So yesterday I wrote the owner of the beacon a very polite email and
> explained how severe the problem was. Here is some of what I said:
>
> "The reason I'm writing has to do with your beacon. Basically I can't get
> away from it. I have key clicks in my receiver all the way from 50.000 cw up
> past 50.170 SSB. I hear them regardless of the frequency I'm on. And I mean
> loud annoying key clicks. I can literally copy your beacon's cw message when
> I'm up in the SSB portion of the band.  I receive the beacon at S9 +25 dB on
> 50.060 but my poor S meter never gets a rest from the beacon. My S meter
> constantly jumps from S3 to S5 when the beacon transmits, even when I'm up
> on the SSB frequencies. I can't even get an S meter reading on a weak signal
> station due to your beacon acting on the S meter. As you could imagine, this
> makes operating very difficult, very annoying, and for a truly weak signal
> I'm trying to pull out of the noise floor, it makes it impossible. I have to
> try and 'deafen' my K3 with excessive Noise Blanking and DSP settings etc to
> the point where I can't hear the 'weak signals'. Both antennas experience
> the same affect."
>
> Before I post his entire response below my question is do I have a valid
> complaint to take to the FCC or am I just wasting my time and need to learn
> to be content :
>
> His response:
> "Hi Chuck AF4XK,
> I am sorry that you are experiencing problems on your receive. I have
> had the beacon on 6 meters in operation since 1992 and it is within
> the 3 khz. band plan for beacons. I have had it checked  on a
> $25,000.00 spectrum analyzer to make sure it was where it needed to
> be. All beacons have to be checked every year to check for
> performance. This 6m beacon is centered on 50.060 with a constant null
> on either end. Being a member of the Intercontinental Beacon
> Commision, I have to make sure it is within specs to keep it up for
> propagation. I have it send in 1 watt, 10 watts, and 45 watts for the
> purpose of overseas propagation. Since all beacons are turned off
> during ARRL contests. I usually turn this off according to the rules
> of each contest, and it resumes operation after the contest is
> complete.
> I also enjoy the voice SSB portion of six, and PSK31 but since the
> beacon is located at this location, I am receiving the same clicking
> and annoying spread that you are getting and more. So when contests
> are going on, I jump on six for the short time I can use it also. I
> have tried to find a site to move it so it won't interfere with the
> hams in this area. But I haven't found one as of yet. Still looking
> though. Don ( N8DDK ) and Jack ( N6UYB ) down the street less than 1/4
> mile, are both having the same problem you are having with the band
> wipe out. And both are glad when it is turned off during contests. I
> wish that there is something I could do to prevent this, but you are
> not alone. Being it runs 24/7 for the watchers of propagation for
> hams, and is totally funded by me for this purpose, this is my
> donation to the ham community. If you know of a location that I could
> move it to and not interfere with any other hams that wants to operate
> on six meter, let me know. I would be glad to move it.
> Richard --- KD4NMI/B"
>
> Is this in the spirit of amateur radio??
>
> One thing further, I just purchased a IC-910H for satellite operation (sorry
> elecraft, i wanted to give you the business but ...) and now I'm VERY
> CONCERNED about his 2 meter beacon on 144.300
>
> Thanks for any further advice.
>
> chuck
> af4xk

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[Vic Rosenthal]

Or simply adjusting the bias so it will not operate in class C. Of course that would mean
that he would get less power.

On 6/11/2012 5:58 AM, Rick Stealey wrote:
> If that cleans it up then you at least have something to discuss with him on a technical
> level - the possible replacement of the amp.

--
--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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[Guy, K2AV]

What needs to be done is for someone at a distance to document the clicks,
someone decidedly not "local local".  As long as only "local locals"
complain, he always has it in his mind that it's overload.  If it CAN'T be
documented at a distance, then there is the question how do you know that
it ISN'T overload.  If it isn't down 50 dB plus and minus 500 Hz then it's
not state of the art.  (All caveats about actually knowing HOW to measure
key clicks accurately still apply.)

And all the discussion here does little.  Without technically correct
documentation and subsequent application to the FCC, all this is just
shouting into the great big internet bit bucket.

He is in Knightdale, in the general Raleigh area, and I am on the other
side of Raleigh, in Apex.  If I can hear his beacon on one of my HF
antennas, I will check it out carefully.

73, Guy.
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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> He is in Knightdale, in the general Raleigh area, and I am on the
> other side of Raleigh, in Apex. If I can hear his beacon on one of my
> HF antennas, I will check it out carefully.

You should not have any problem ... I regularly copy the Orlando beacon
which runs 6 watts at a similar distance (EL98gl to EL98kr - 26 mi +/-)
on an R5 vertical.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV



On 6/11/2012 11:54 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> What needs to be done is for someone at a distance to document the clicks,
> someone decidedly not "local local".  As long as only "local locals"
> complain, he always has it in his mind that it's overload.  If it CAN'T be
> documented at a distance, then there is the question how do you know that
> it ISN'T overload.  If it isn't down 50 dB plus and minus 500 Hz then it's
> not state of the art.  (All caveats about actually knowing HOW to measure
> key clicks accurately still apply.)
>
> And all the discussion here does little.  Without technically correct
> documentation and subsequent application to the FCC, all this is just
> shouting into the great big internet bit bucket.
>
> He is in Knightdale, in the general Raleigh area, and I am on the other
> side of Raleigh, in Apex.  If I can hear his beacon on one of my HF
> antennas, I will check it out carefully.
>
> 73, Guy.
>

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[Mike WA8BXN]

Hi Chuck,
 
Have you tried turning the noise blanker OFF entirely? With some rigs I have
found that the noise blanker can at times cause good signals to seem to have
problems. You might also try using an attenuator to bring the beacon to say
S9 and see if the clicks are still present. Doing this may not produce any
interesting results, but perhaps it may.
 
73 - Mike WA8BXN
 
 
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[Guy, K2AV]

50.06: copying Wb0RMO en10, wisps of a W4 earlier,  but no KD4NMI/B at all.
 I usually hear 100 watt ten meter mobile stations across town S5 to S8,
would expect to hear NMI as well.

Perhaps we should take this off-reflector?

73, Guy.

On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You should not have any problem ... I regularly copy the Orlando beacon
> which runs 6 watts at a similar distance (EL98gl to EL98kr - 26 mi +/-)
> on an R5 vertical.
>
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[CHRISTOP PATTERSON]

Chuck:

Based on what you are saying, the beacon is not operating in accordance with good amateur practice. It seems inconceivable that a "clean" beacon could be interfering with so many stations.
My first suggestion, since the fellow points out that the beacon is self funded, is that you ask him to save himself some money and turn it off. Although he is apparently enamored with "his" beacon, there are so many six meter beacons in the eastern US that all he is doing is adding to the noise pollution. If you point him to the K9MU beacon list, http://www.k9mu.com/map/ , he will see that there are several 6 meter beacons in nearby grids, including EM95, EM84 and EM85. (Interestingly, his beacon is not shown on the K9MU list). As a practical matter, his beacon does nothing to enhance any propagation watches or studies. A quick look at the DX Summit site for the years 2008-present shows only five spots outside the US and Canada; the only overseas spots are from CT1HZE or Mexico. Curiously, many of the DX Summit site spots list a frequency of 50.059MHz; this is outside the authorized beacon band. Perhaps over the years the Yaesu transmitter has moved a bit low in frequency, o
 r it transmits CW in lower sideband.
It is also worth noting that the October, 1991 QST review of the Yaesu FT-650, http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/16464891/503024121/name/ARRL, points out that the FT-650 generates considerable key clicks on transmit, and the cleanness of the transmit signal is not great.
My second suggestion is that you and other hams in your area confirm what you are reporting. If someone can look at the signal and see the clicks you should inform him of that fact. You should also advise him that you will contact the FCC if the matter is not promptly resolved, i.e., the beacon is removed or cleaned up, within a set time period. Even though he cannot understand why his beacon is interfering with so many stations; it seems that the answer is obvious. If he does not comply, a formal complaint is in order.
Good luck.

Chris Patterson W3CMP
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[Thom Durfee]

I suggest that you try a couple of deep notch filters on 50.060. That
should fix the problem.


Thom WI8W


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[callen1155]

Thanks Chris,

Great info.

FWIW, I just received an email from another elecraft reflector reader who lives over nine miles away from my QTH.   When he points his beam toward my direction he hears the clicks (he does not hear them on the sides and back of beam).

73.
chuck
af4xk

[Iain MacDonnell - N6ML-2]

I can't use the IF NB on 6m due to the nearby K6FRC beacon. It sounds
like key clicks over a large portion of the band, but it's really not.
The DSP NB does not suffer from this (obviously?)

73,

    ~iain / N6ML


On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Mike WA8BXN <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Chuck,
>
> Have you tried turning the noise blanker OFF entirely? With some rigs I have
> found that the noise blanker can at times cause good signals to seem to have
> problems. You might also try using an attenuator to bring the beacon to say
> S9 and see if the clicks are still present. Doing this may not produce any
> interesting results, but perhaps it may.
>
> 73 - Mike WA8BXN
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[k1tl]

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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Yes, Let's end this OT thread for now.

73,

Eric
List Moderator
---
www.elecraft.com


On 6/11/2012 9:52 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

> 50.06: copying Wb0RMO en10, wisps of a W4 earlier,  but no KD4NMI/B at all.
>   I usually hear 100 watt ten meter mobile stations across town S5 to S8,
> would expect to hear NMI as well.
>
> Perhaps we should take this off-reflector?
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> You should not have any problem ... I regularly copy the Orlando beacon
>> which runs 6 watts at a similar distance (EL98gl to EL98kr - 26 mi +/-)
>> on an R5 vertical.
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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