[OT]: Antenna Tuners - one more reason

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[OT]: Antenna Tuners - one more reason

alorona
There are many hams who dislike antenna tuners and will go to great lengths to avoid having to use one, including putting up multiple antennas, trimming antennas inch by inch, and using elaborate matching schemes involving transmission lines of various lengths and Zo.

Besides the tremendous freedom a good antenna tuner gives you with regard to the length of your antenna, length of your feedline, type of feedline, and choice of operating frequency, there is one other advantage that many often forget and which I rarely hear explained.

I use a homebrew link-coupled balanced tuner. It's getting harder to find a commercially-built link-coupled unit, but the most famous example is the good old Johnson Matchbox which most folks are familiar with.

Anyway, the advantage I'm talking about is that when properly adjusted, a link-coupled tuner acts as a high-pass filter. This means that it provides additional rejection of AM broadcast stations in the 530 - 1710 kHz band. This is really important to many hams, particularly when they live close to one of these high-powered transmitters which are always on and have plenty of potential for causing problems in the receiver.

I have run simulations of my particular tuner (which is not exactly like a Johnson) which show that I enjoy a minimum of -30 dB of rejection at 1710 kHz (the closest end of the broadcast band and thus, the worst case) when I am tuned up on 80 meters, and -50 dB when I'm tuned on 40 meters. I have confirmed these numbers with measurements.

I have troublemakers at 1110 and 1300 kHz, both 50 kW only about 1.5 miles away. I believe they would cause me some problems if I did not have this tuner in the line which knocks them down by 42 and 38 dB, respectively, when I am operating on 80 meters. When you knock down a 50 kW signal by 40 dB, it looks like a mere 5 W signal!

So the next time someone complains about "lossy tuners", or having to "twirl dials", remind them that there is this hidden benefit to using a good old-fashioned, link-coupled tuner.
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Re: [OT]: Antenna Tuners - one more reason

W8JI
Using a tuner to get rid of BCB problems often works quite
well. That's a good suggestion because most of the time it
works, although there are cases where it might not work as
well or can even make things worse.

The typical T-network tuner is a highpass configuration  and
will generally reject lower frequency signals at a more
rapidly increasing attenuation than above the tuner
frequency. Most link coupled tuners are actually a
"bandpass" circuit, not a highpass.

In all cases we should remember the exact suppression
characteristics depend on the impedances presented by the
radio and the antenna system at the undesired frequency to
the network. There are cases where a tuner (of nearly any
type) can actually increase the level of an undesired
out-of-band signal, even though that same tuner looks good
into a 50-ohm resistor from a 50-ohm source.

It is the characteristics of the antenna, tuner, and radio
as a combination of impedances at the **unwanted** signal
frequency that determine the real attenuation.....not how it
acts into 50-ohm loads from infinite bandwidth 50-ohm
sources found in models.

<<Anyway, the advantage I'm talking about is that when
properly adjusted, a link-coupled tuner acts as a high-pass
filter. This means that it provides additional rejection of
AM broadcast stations in the 530 - 1710 kHz band. This is
really important to many hams, particularly when they live
close to one of these high-powered transmitters which are
always on and have plenty of potential for causing problems
in the receiver.>>

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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Bill Steffey NY9H
It's up on the website ,,,,,  time to order....


bill
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Bill Steffey NY9H
In reply to this post by W8JI
oopps    now i can't find it ,,,,,    sri


bill

At 08:23 AM 4/15/2010, Bill  NY9H wrote:
>It's up on the website ,,,,,  time to order....
>
>
>bill
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Elecraft have sent an e-mail to all of those on their "P3 waiting
list" with an order link.  Since the P3 is not on the order form
and does not have any other link (that I an find) from the web
page, I will not repost the link from the e-mail.  

However, if you want to be among the first on your block to have a
P3, I suggest contacting Elecraft by e-mail ([hidden email]),  
phone or fax.

The e-mail sets the initial price at $699.95 with first shipments
"around July 15, 2010."

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill NY9H
> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:29 AM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] time to order your P3 >>>>
>
>
> oopps    now i can't find it ,,,,,    sri
>
>
> bill
>
> At 08:23 AM 4/15/2010, Bill  NY9H wrote:
> >It's up on the website ,,,,,  time to order....
> >
> >
> >bill
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ
Administrator
http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm

Please use the link above to order instead of via the phone. If everyone
calls today our sales staff will be in big trouble :-)

We're just completing building the complete P3 web page now and will
have more info up later today.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ

_..._


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill NY9H
>> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:29 AM
>> To: Elecraft Reflector
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] time to order your P3 >>>>
>>
>>
>> oopps    now i can't find it ,,,,,    sri
>>
>>
>> bill
>>
>> At 08:23 AM 4/15/2010, Bill  NY9H wrote:
>>    
>>> It's up on the website ,,,,,  time to order....
>>>
>>>
>>> bill
>>>      
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>    
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>  
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

M0XDF
Eric, can you remind us what is required in the K3 to run the P3, I have an original KXV3
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
Accuracy Transcends Speed

On 15 Apr 2010, at 14:44, Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft wrote:

> http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm
>
> Please use the link above to order instead of via the phone. If everyone
> calls today our sales staff will be in big trouble :-)
>
> We're just completing building the complete P3 web page now and will
> have more info up later today.
>
> 73, Eric  WA6HHQ
>
> _..._
>
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill NY9H
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:29 AM
>>> To: Elecraft Reflector
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] time to order your P3 >>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> oopps    now i can't find it ,,,,,    sri
>>>
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>> At 08:23 AM 4/15/2010, Bill  NY9H wrote:
>>>
>>>> It's up on the website ,,,,,  time to order....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> bill
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ
Administrator
The earlier KXV3 is fine for the P3.    (The KXV3a added internal
transverter connections for the K144XV).

No other options are required.

73, Eric

_..._



David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
> Eric, can you remind us what is required in the K3 to run the P3, I have an original KXV3
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
>  
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Bill W4ZV
Eric Swartz -WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote
The earlier KXV3 is fine for the P3.    (The KXV3a added internal
transverter connections for the K144XV).

No other options are required.
But you probably should do the IF OUT mod if you haven't yet done so:

http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/IF_Output_Buffer_Gain_Mod_Rev_A.pdf

"This modification increases the signal level at the I.F. output by more than 10 dB. It requires changing one
easily-accessible resistor on the K3’s main RF board with either another surface mount device (SMD) or a leaded 1/8 watt resistor. A kit containing both an SMD and leaded resistor is available from Elecraft: K3IOBUFFKT.

This change has been incorporated into all new K3’s beginning in September 2009."

73,  Bill
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

M0XDF
Good point, since I'm paying for shipping, I might as well order any mod kits I have yet got - applying them would be a good idea - including the ones I've had for a year :-(
--
Study without desire spoils the memory, and it retains nothing that it takes in.  -- Leonardo da Vinci

On 15 Apr 2010, at 15:16, Bill W4ZV wrote:

>
>
> Eric Swartz -WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
>>
>> The earlier KXV3 is fine for the P3.    (The KXV3a added internal
>> transverter connections for the K144XV).
>>
>> No other options are required.
>>
>
> But you probably should do the IF OUT mod if you haven't yet done so:
>
> http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/IF_Output_Buffer_Gain_Mod_Rev_A.pdf
>
> "This modification increases the signal level at the I.F. output by more
> than 10 dB. It requires changing one
> easily-accessible resistor on the K3’s main RF board with either another
> surface mount device (SMD) or a leaded 1/8 watt resistor. A kit containing
> both an SMD and leaded resistor is available from Elecraft: K3IOBUFFKT.
>
> This change has been incorporated into all new K3’s beginning in September
> 2009."
>
> 73,  Bill
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/OT-Antenna-Tuners-one-more-reason-tp4905802p4907763.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Trevor Smithers
In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ
I assume the item shown on the order page is for the pre built unit - will you be offering a kit
version ?

73
Trevor G0KTN

-------- Original Message --------

http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm

Please use the link above to order instead of via the phone. If everyone
calls today our sales staff will be in big trouble :-)

We're just completing building the complete P3 web page now and will
have more info up later today.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

M0XDF
ah - I hope that's the kit!

73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm. - Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965).

On 15 Apr 2010, at 15:48, Trevor Smithers wrote:

> I assume the item shown on the order page is for the pre built unit - will you be offering a kit
> version ?
>
> 73
> Trevor G0KTN
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm
>
> Please use the link above to order instead of via the phone. If everyone
> calls today our sales staff will be in big trouble :-)
>
> We're just completing building the complete P3 web page now and will
> have more info up later today.
>
> 73, Eric  WA6HHQ
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Re: [OT]: Antenna Tuners - one more reason

n7ws
In reply to this post by alorona
Antenna tuners have their place---just not in my shack.  That said, your tuner is actually a band-pass filter whose performance as a filter is dependent on what it's matching.

If you really need a high-pass filter to correct an issue, then I think that you should use a purpose-built filter.

Just my HO.

Wes  N7WS

--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Al Lorona <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] [OT]: Antenna Tuners - one more reason
> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 12:08 AM
> There are many hams who dislike
> antenna tuners and will go to great lengths to avoid having
> to use one, including putting up multiple antennas, trimming
> antennas inch by inch, and using elaborate matching schemes
> involving transmission lines of various lengths and Zo.
>
> Besides the tremendous freedom a good antenna tuner gives
> you with regard to the length of your antenna, length of
> your feedline, type of feedline, and choice of operating
> frequency, there is one other advantage that many often
> forget and which I rarely hear explained.
>
> I use a homebrew link-coupled balanced tuner. It's getting
> harder to find a commercially-built link-coupled unit, but
> the most famous example is the good old Johnson Matchbox
> which most folks are familiar with.
>
> Anyway, the advantage I'm talking about is that when
> properly adjusted, a link-coupled tuner acts as a high-pass
> filter. This means that it provides additional rejection of
> AM broadcast stations in the 530 - 1710 kHz band. This
> is really important to many hams, particularly when they
> live close to one of these high-powered transmitters which
> are always on and have plenty of potential for causing
> problems in the receiver.
>
> I have run simulations of my particular tuner (which is not
> exactly like a Johnson) which show that I enjoy a minimum of
> -30 dB of rejection at 1710 kHz (the closest end of the
> broadcast band and thus, the worst case) when I am tuned up
> on 80 meters, and -50 dB when I'm tuned on 40 meters. I have
> confirmed these numbers with measurements.
>
> I have troublemakers at 1110 and 1300 kHz, both 50
> kW only about 1.5 miles away. I believe they would cause
> me some problems if I did not have this tuner in the line
> which knocks them down by 42 and 38 dB, respectively,
> when I am operating on 80 meters. When you knock down a 50
> kW signal by 40 dB, it looks like a mere 5 W signal!
>
> So the next time someone complains about "lossy tuners", or
> having to "twirl dials", remind them that there is this
> hidden benefit to using a good old-fashioned,
> link-coupled tuner.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>


     
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Phil Hystad-3
In reply to this post by M0XDF
I ordered mine -- I don't care whether it is a kit or not-a-kit.  I wanted the P3.

On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:15 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:

> ah - I hope that's the kit!
>
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
> Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm. - Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965).
>
> On 15 Apr 2010, at 15:48, Trevor Smithers wrote:
>
>> I assume the item shown on the order page is for the pre built unit - will you be offering a kit
>> version ?
>>
>> 73
>> Trevor G0KTN
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>>
>> http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm
>>
>> Please use the link above to order instead of via the phone. If everyone
>> calls today our sales staff will be in big trouble :-)
>>
>> We're just completing building the complete P3 web page now and will
>> have more info up later today.
>>
>> 73, Eric  WA6HHQ
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

M0XDF
well I ordered too, but I really want the kit, both for the fun and understanding and for the reduced cost - no custom charges on a kit
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
--
One can pay back the loan of gold, but one dies forever in debt to those
who are kind. -Malayan Proverb

On 15 Apr 2010, at 16:58, Phil Hystad wrote:

> I ordered mine -- I don't care whether it is a kit or not-a-kit.  I wanted the P3.
>
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 8:15 AM, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote:
>
>> ah - I hope that's the kit!
>>
>> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174
>> Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm. - Winston Churchill (1874 - 1965).
>>
>> On 15 Apr 2010, at 15:48, Trevor Smithers wrote:
>>
>>> I assume the item shown on the order page is for the pre built unit - will you be offering a kit
>>> version ?
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Trevor G0KTN
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>
>>> http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm
>>>
>>> Please use the link above to order instead of via the phone. If everyone
>>> calls today our sales staff will be in big trouble :-)
>>>
>>> We're just completing building the complete P3 web page now and will
>>> have more info up later today.
>>>
>>> 73, Eric  WA6HHQ
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
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[elecraft] k2 alignment testing

Dickinson, Joe
Current status from n0xdb.

I have alignment phase 2 working for the most part (don't' have an antenna yet so skipped that part for the moment).

Alignment phase 1 still no tone.  I tried this alignment before, and resoldered the phone jack, but am not sure if it's making a solid connection because the leads don't go through the board, they just appear at the holes.

I was hearing some static, now I don't hear jack.

I have a 60ohm headphones (it calls for 30ohm) not sure if this is a big deal.

What should I check to verify sound going into or out of my phone jack?
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ
Administrator
In reply to this post by Trevor Smithers
Oops - I made a mistake getting this up quickly last night.  The P3
listed on the order form was the kit version.

I've now corrected the order form and added the -F assembled version
($50 more).

http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm

If you placed an order and want to change it to a -F please email
[hidden email] to let them know, with your order confirmation number
copied in the email. That will help us quickly match it with your order.

Just moving too fast here! (We're also working hard to get ready to head
out to the Visalia International DX Convention tonight.)

73, Eric   WA6HHQ
====

On 4/15/2010 7:48 AM, Trevor Smithers wrote:
> I assume the item shown on the order page is for the pre built unit - will you be offering a kit
> version ?
>
> 73
> Trevor G0KTN
>
>    
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

n7ws
Although I had a P3 in my hand a month ago and saw it operate (briefly) before I order one, I would like to see a manual and get some idea of what it brings to the table.

ps. Did you add that steel plate inside that I recommended to keep it from skidding off the table when I push a button and that makes the XYL think that there really is something inside worth $700? :-)

--- On Thu, 4/15/10, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] time to order your P3   >>>>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 11:04 AM
> Oops - I made a mistake getting this
> up quickly last night.  The P3
> listed on the order form was the kit version.
>
> I've now corrected the order form and added the -F
> assembled version
> ($50 more).
>
> http://www.elecraft.com/order_form_p3.htm
>
> If you placed an order and want to change it to a -F please
> email
> [hidden email]
> to let them know, with your order confirmation number
> copied in the email. That will help us quickly match it
> with your order.
>
> Just moving too fast here! (We're also working hard to get
> ready to head
> out to the Visalia International DX Convention tonight.)
>
> 73, Eric   WA6HHQ
> ====
>
> On 4/15/2010 7:48 AM, Trevor Smithers wrote:
> > I assume the item shown on the order page is for the
> pre built unit - will you be offering a kit
> > version ?
> >
> > 73
> > Trevor G0KTN
> >
> >   
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>


     
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How is the P3 Connected to the K3?

Richard Thorne

I'm curious how the P3 is connected to the K3.  Currently I have the RS-232 and the 15pin Accessory port connected to my Microham Microkeyer II.  Will the P3 need the same connections? if so is there a way to get the P3 and MicrokeyerII to coexist.

Rich - N5ZC
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Re: time to order your P3 >>>>

Ruben Navarro Huedo-2
In reply to this post by n7ws
It is also important for me, read the manual.
I can't test it before order, then i need read the manual.
My order will wait until it.


El 15/04/2010 19:57, Wes Stewart escribió:
> Although I had a P3 in my hand a month ago and saw it operate (briefly) before I order one, I would like to see a manual and get some idea of what it brings to the table.
>
> ps. Did you add that steel plate inside that I recommended to keep it from skidding off the table when I push a button and that makes the XYL think that there really is something inside worth $700? :-)
>
> --- On Thu, 4/15/10, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>

--
Rubén Navarro Huedo - EA5BZ
http://www.palotes.com
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