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OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

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Edward R Cole

OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

I sent this to the reflector last Tuesday but it never posted on the
reflector; here it is again:

>Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 09:03:13 -0800
>To: Elecraft Reflector
>From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
>Subject: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham
>
>This might be considered an offshoot of the OT R8 discussion - read on:
>
>A local ham friend dropped by to show my an antenna he had acquired
>wondering what freq. it covered. After looking it over I decided it
>was a 36-MHz quarter wave vertical with decoupling section at the
>base and fed with a gamma-match. The gamma has a 7/16 coax
>connector with N-female adapter, so apparently commercial band.
>
>My friend also recently acquired an 80-foot crank-up tower for $100
>(Yes, you read that correctly). Some guys are really lucky! He
>lives on disability so has few funds for ham radio, but asks me what
>antennas he can put on top of his tower. He does not want a
>directional antenna like a yagi...sooo
>
>First we considered he could lengthen the 72-inch commercial
>vertical to operate on 10m and mount it on top of the tower. But
>that would only give him one band.He could also shorten it to 6m but
>there is little local activity on that band so 10m probably would
>provide him better use.
>
>For HF bands I thought about a dipole with auto-tuner. Finally
>thought maybe running sloping dipoles might work well. Base load
>that tower as grounded vertical? 160-40m?
>
>Another note: He has a tech-class license so that limits where he
>can operate. I suggested upgrading to General and he is not adverse
>to doing that. He owns a IC-706.
>
>Any suggestions?

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

Ed,

Since he does not want a beam, I would suggest 3 dipole antennas
supported from his 80 ft. tower - OK, really 8 dipoles, but 3
feedlines. All of them would be inverted VEE type.

One of them is a fan dipole for 10/15/20 meters. Position that one to
favor his preferred DX locations.
The next is a fan dipole for the WARC bands 30/17/12 - position that one
at 90 degrees to the 10/15/20 dipole.
The third is a broadband antenna for 80 and 40. See the ARRL Antenna
Book 19th Edition (may also be in later versions) page 9-16 - "A Simple
Broadband Dipole for 80 Meters". It was initially described in a QST
article in September 1993. It uses a 1 wavelength of RG-213 plus a 1/4
wavelength of RG-11 to produce a Transmission Line Resonator and will
result in a 'double humped' SWR curve giving less than a 2:1 SWR from
3.5 MHz to 3.950 if the 80 meter wire is trimmed properly. A set of 40
meter wires can be added to this same coax giving both 80 and 40 meter
coverage with a low SWR.
Position the 4 radiator wires for this antenna at 45 degrees to the
wires for the 10/15/20 meter and the 30/17/12 meter sets for minimum
interaction.

Yes, he would have to have an antenna switch to switch between the 3
coax feedlines, but that would give him 80 through 10 meter coverage.
The 36 MHz antenna could be trimmed to 6 meters and added as a vertical
on the tower for 80 through 6 meter coverage with 4 feedlines.

For 160 meter coverage, run radials out from the tower and run it as a
shunt fed vertical - yes, that probably is a 5th feedline, so use a 6
position coax switch and connect the 6th position to a dummy load to
protect the equipment when it is not in use.

He would not have to put up the WARC antennas until he has his General
ticket. Other than the feedlines, the cost is as low as the wire used
for the radiators and the baluns for each feedline.

73,
Don W3FPR

Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 09:03:13 -0800

>> To: Elecraft Reflector
>> From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham
>>
>> This might be considered an offshoot of the OT R8 discussion - read on:
>>
>> A local ham friend dropped by to show my an antenna he had acquired
>> wondering what freq. it covered. After looking it over I decided it
>> was a 36-MHz quarter wave vertical with decoupling section at the
>> base and fed with a gamma-match. The gamma has a 7/16 coax connector
>> with N-female adapter, so apparently commercial band.
>>
>> My friend also recently acquired an 80-foot crank-up tower for $100
>> (Yes, you read that correctly). Some guys are really lucky! He
>> lives on disability so has few funds for ham radio, but asks me what
>> antennas he can put on top of his tower. He does not want a
>> directional antenna like a yagi...sooo
>>
>> First we considered he could lengthen the 72-inch commercial vertical
>> to operate on 10m and mount it on top of the tower. But that would
>> only give him one band.He could also shorten it to 6m but there is
>> little local activity on that band so 10m probably would provide him
>> better use.
>>
>> For HF bands I thought about a dipole with auto-tuner. Finally
>> thought maybe running sloping dipoles might work well. Base load
>> that tower as grounded vertical? 160-40m?
>>
>> Another note: He has a tech-class license so that limits where he
>> can operate. I suggested upgrading to General and he is not adverse
>> to doing that. He owns a IC-706.
>>
>> Any suggestions?
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

One other comment regarding fan dipoles.
They really work well, but if one attempts to put more than 3 bands on a
fan dipole, the interaction can become frustrating to tune them all,
been there, done that, and have all the scars.

I separate the radiators in my fan dipoles by about 1 foot using PVC for
the separators. It is important for the ends to be separated, but I
like to begin the separation as close to the feedpoint as is practical.
Cut the dipoles a bit long and tune them from the lowest band first to
the highest band last to minimize the effects of interaction.

Yes, I have successfully tuned a 6 band version of a fan dipole for a
local ham, but it becomes a bit more of a challenge when going beyond 3
bands.

73,
Don W3FPR

-------------------------------------------------------
Ed,

Since he does not want a beam, I would suggest 3 dipole antennas
supported from his 80 ft. tower - OK, really 8 dipoles, but 3 feedlines.
All of them would be inverted VEE type.

One of them is a fan dipole for 10/15/20 meters. Position that one to
favor his preferred DX locations.
The next is a fan dipole for the WARC bands 30/17/12 - position that one
at 90 degrees to the 10/15/20 dipole.
The third is a broadband antenna for 80 and 40. See the ARRL Antenna
Book 19th Edition (may also be in later versions) page 9-16 - "A Simple
Broadband Dipole for 80 Meters". It was initially described in a QST
article in September 1993. It uses a 1 wavelength of RG-213 plus a 1/4
wavelength of RG-11 to produce a Transmission Line Resonator and will
result in a 'double humped' SWR curve giving less than a 2:1 SWR from
3.5 MHz to 3.950 if the 80 meter wire is trimmed properly. A set of 40
meter wires can be added to this same coax giving both 80 and 40 meter
coverage with a low SWR.
Position the 4 radiator wires for this antenna at 45 degrees to the
wires for the 10/15/20 meter and the 30/17/12 meter sets for minimum
interaction.

Yes, he would have to have an antenna switch to switch between the 3
coax feedlines, but that would give him 80 through 10 meter coverage.
The 36 MHz antenna could be trimmed to 6 meters and added as a vertical
on the tower for 80 through 6 meter coverage with 4 feedlines.

For 160 meter coverage, run radials out from the tower and run it as a
shunt fed vertical - yes, that probably is a 5th feedline, so use a 6
position coax switch and connect the 6th position to a dummy load to
protect the equipment when it is not in use.

He would not have to put up the WARC antennas until he has his General
ticket. Other than the feedlines, the cost is as low as the wire used
for the radiators and the baluns for each feedline.

73,
Don W3FPR

Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 09:03:13 -0800

Bill Frantz

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

If he has a long coax run, he should consider a remote antenna
switch. I have one to keep the coax in the house to the YL's
tolerance level. If he can locate it close enough to the feed
points, he may be able to avoid multiple common mode chokes.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 9/13/14 at 4:47 PM, [hidden email] (Don Wilhelm) wrote:

>Yes, he would have to have an antenna switch to switch between
>the 3 coax feedlines, but that would give him 80 through 10
>meter coverage. The 36 MHz antenna could be trimmed to 6
>meters and added as a vertical on the tower for 80 through 6
>meter coverage with 4 feedlines.
>
>For 160 meter coverage, run radials out from the tower and run
>it as a shunt fed vertical - yes, that probably is a 5th
>feedline, so use a 6 position coax switch and connect the 6th
>position to a dummy load to protect the equipment when it is
>not in use.
>
>He would not have to put up the WARC antennas until he has his
>General ticket. Other than the feedlines, the cost is as low
>as the wire used for the radiators and the baluns for each feedline.

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Jim Brown-10

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

On Sat,9/13/2014 5:01 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> One other comment regarding fan dipoles.
> They really work well, but if one attempts to put more than 3 bands on
> a fan dipole, the interaction can become frustrating to tune them all,
> been there, done that, and have all the scars.

Strongly agree. Also, fans work best on harmonically related bands.
80/40 works very well, so does 20/15/10. 40/30/20 not so good.

I use separations of about 9 inches for 20/15/10, and about 15 inches
for 80/40.

A very high 20/15/10 fan will have Zo near 50 ohms, but an equally high
80/40 will be closer to 75-80 ohms, depending on what your ground is. I
feed my high 80/40s with RG11. Mine are up 110 ft.

On any fan, the longest dipole will have it's "normal" SWR bandwidth,
while the SWR bandwidths of the shorter dipole(s) will be about half
normal. That works great for 80, which is the widest band as a
percentage of frequency, and 40M is relatively narrow. No problem on
20/15/10 either, because we tend to use the bottom half of 10M.

73, Jim K9YC
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

I failed to mention another point with regard to fan dipoles. Do not
mix 3rd harmonic radiators on the same coax. In other words, stay away
from combinations of 40 meters and 15 meters, and also 40 meters and 30
meters. They may work, but tuning problems are 'iffy'.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/14/2014 1:08 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Sat,9/13/2014 5:01 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> One other comment regarding fan dipoles.
>> They really work well, but if one attempts to put more than 3 bands
>> on a fan dipole, the interaction can become frustrating to tune them
>> all, been there, done that, and have all the scars.
>
> Strongly agree. Also, fans work best on harmonically related bands.
> 80/40 works very well, so does 20/15/10. 40/30/20 not so good.
>
> I use separations of about 9 inches for 20/15/10, and about 15 inches
> for 80/40.
>

Bill Frantz

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

Fan dipoles depend on the relatively high impedance on the fan
pieces that are for other bands to send most of the energy into
the tuned fan. If you are using fans for 40 and 15, the energy
will be split between them on 15M which isn't what you want.

BTW - My combination of a 160M dipole commonly fed with an 80M
inverted V at 90 degrees to the 160M dipole works quite well on
15 meters. The cocoaNEC model shows good performance with 4
major lobes arranged more or less in the direction of the 160M wire.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 9/13/14 at 11:14 PM, [hidden email] (Walter Underwood) wrote:

>Eh? A 40m dipole is pretty close to resonance on 15m already,
>so how can you avoid that. In fact, all dipoles are resonant at
>odd multiples of half waves, so this is impossible to avoid.
>
>Could you clarify the issue here?
>
>wunder
>K6WRU
>CM87wj
>http://observer.wunderwood.org/
>
>On Sep 13, 2014, at 10:31 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>I failed to mention another point with regard to fan dipoles. Do not mix 3rd harmonic radiators on
>the same coax. In other words, stay away from combinations of
>40 meters and 15 meters, and also 40 meters and 30 meters.
>They may work, but tuning problems are 'iffy'.
>>
>>73,
>>Don W3FPR
>>

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Jim Wiley

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don -

Did you mean 80 meters and 30 meters? 40 meters and 30 meters should
be OK, even if the frequency separation is not optimal.

- Jim, KL7CC

On 9/13/2014 9:31 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> I failed to mention another point with regard to fan dipoles. Do not
> mix 3rd harmonic radiators on the same coax. In other words, stay
> away from combinations of 40 meters and 15 meters, and also 40 meters
> and 30 meters. They may work, but tuning problems are 'iffy'.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

Don't overlook traps. My low band antenna is a double (fan?) dipole with
80 M traps in one leg for 160/80 and 40 M traps in the other leg for 60/40
coverage. It seems to work fine at about 55 feet.

In an inverted V configuration, just install the legs at 90 degrees to each
other for minimal interaction. I did this for a 40/80 double V which also
worked great with the top at 40 feet.

73, Charlie k3ICH

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Wiley" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 3:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

> Don -
>
> Did you mean 80 meters and 30 meters? 40 meters and 30 meters should
> be OK, even if the frequency separation is not optimal.
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
>
> On 9/13/2014 9:31 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> I failed to mention another point with regard to fan dipoles. Do not mix
>> 3rd harmonic radiators on the same coax. In other words, stay away from
>> combinations of 40 meters and 15 meters, and also 40 meters and 30
>> meters. They may work, but tuning problems are 'iffy'.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

drewko

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

I don't have a tower but I am using a 10-20m cobweb antenna in my
attic. It's non-directional and feeds with a single coax. It gets out
pretty well on all five bands. Recently worked aZL station on 17m with
less than 2 watts (this is the requisite anecdotal information... but
true.) I'd love to try it on an 80 ft tower...

I'm using the G3TXQ version with single-wire elements. I originally
trimmed it to freq using a (cheap) noise bridge but a graphical
antenna analyzer would be nice and easy.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On Sat, 13 Sep 2014 13:16:37 -0800, you wrote:

>I sent this to the reflector last Tuesday but it never posted on the
>reflector; here it is again:
>
>
>>Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2014 09:03:13 -0800
>>To: Elecraft Reflector
>>From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
>>Subject: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham
>>
>>This might be considered an offshoot of the OT R8 discussion - read on:
>>
>>A local ham friend dropped by to show my an antenna he had acquired
>>wondering what freq. it covered. After looking it over I decided it
>>was a 36-MHz quarter wave vertical with decoupling section at the
>>base and fed with a gamma-match. The gamma has a 7/16 coax
>>connector with N-female adapter, so apparently commercial band.
>>
>>My friend also recently acquired an 80-foot crank-up tower for $100
>>(Yes, you read that correctly). Some guys are really lucky! He
>>lives on disability so has few funds for ham radio, but asks me what
>>antennas he can put on top of his tower. He does not want a
>>directional antenna like a yagi...sooo
>>
>>First we considered he could lengthen the 72-inch commercial
>>vertical to operate on 10m and mount it on top of the tower. But
>>that would only give him one band.He could also shorten it to 6m but
>>there is little local activity on that band so 10m probably would
>>provide him better use.
>>
>>For HF bands I thought about a dipole with auto-tuner. Finally
>>thought maybe running sloping dipoles might work well. Base load
>>that tower as grounded vertical? 160-40m?
>>
>>Another note: He has a tech-class license so that limits where he
>>can operate. I suggested upgrading to General and he is not adverse
>>to doing that. He owns a IC-706.
>>
>>Any suggestions?
>
>73, Ed - KL7UW
>http://www.kl7uw.com
> "Kits made by KL7UW"
>Dubus Mag business:
> [hidden email]
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Correction:
Make that 'don't mix 80 meters and 30 meters on the same coax'
73,
Don W3FPR
---------------------------------------------------
I failed to mention another point with regard to fan dipoles. Do not
mix 3rd harmonic radiators on the same coax. In other words, stay away
from combinations of 40 meters and 15 meters, and also 40 meters and 30
meters. They may work, but tuning problems are 'iffy'.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/14/2014 1:08 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

Elecraft mailing list

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

The reason that the 80/40/15 combo does not work well is that the 40 resonates pretty well on 15 because it is 3/4 wave. I have had a lot of difficulty with 80/40/20 and have never had one work well. My current fan is an Alpha-Delta 80/40 with a 75 meter wire fanned. It is the magic formula to use the same antenna for 80 CW and 75 Phone. It also works well with a tuner on 15 and nicely on 40. I have the apex at 44 feet and the fan about 20 degrees. It does not work well on 20 and 10 or the WARC bands.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart

On Sunday, September 14, 2014 12:41 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

I failed to mention another point with regard to fan dipoles. Do not
mix 3rd harmonic radiators on the same coax. In other words, stay away
from combinations of 40 meters and 15 meters, and also 40 meters and 30
meters. They may work, but tuning problems are 'iffy'.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/14/2014 1:08 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

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Edward R Cole

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

Thanks for the suggestions.

We considered shortening the vertical from 36 to 50 MHz, but there is
almost no local activity on 6m so probably of more use to him with a
Tech License as a 10m vertical - just has to add aluminum tubing of
the correct diameter (the antenna has existing section the slides for
tuning and uses a metal hose clamp to secure).

Some form of wire dipoles will be added, whether in inverted-V or
maybe simply sloping in a desired direction and only needing a single
rope to tie off to ground. Probably 20m & 15m. An 80/40m fan
inverted-V could be hung with center at a lower point on the tower to
be usable in NVIS mode. 45-60 foot high and being far below the
20-10m antennas would not interact. 80/40m dipole should be oriented
for good N-S radiation to cover AK from our location on the Kenai
Peninsula. I have a 80/40m invert-V at 45 foot with ends at
20-feet. I spaced the two wires using 8-inch painted wooden dowel
spacers to keep even spacing and cut the 80m dipole first using an
antenna analyzer. Then slight adjustment after the 40m dipole was
cut. I get 3700-4000 and 7000-7250 without need for a tuner. Tuner
permits running at 3500-3600 and 7200-7300.

The man has few funds to spend on ham goodies so offering things he
can make with materials in-hand. He says he has a lot of wire. Not
sure on coax and how long the runs will be. Since cables would need
to be suspended on a pilot rope or cable from top of the tower so the
tower can be cranked up/down, a remote coax switch would be handy for him.

Anyway have a good supply of ideas for him, now!

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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KD8NNU

Re: OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

In reply to this post by drewko

I use a cobweb at 40ft and it works real well for me also. It’s a good
multiband antenna.

~73
Don
KD8NNU
2014 Top Gun :-)
-.- -.. ---.. -. -. ..-
-----Original Message-----
From: drewko
Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 8:43 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Antenna ideas for a cheap ham

I don't have a tower but I am using a 10-20m cobweb antenna in my
attic. It's non-directional and feeds with a single coax. It gets out
pretty well on all five bands. Recently worked aZL station on 17m with
less than 2 watts (this is the requisite anecdotal information... but
true.) I'd love to try it on an 80 ft tower...

I'm using the G3TXQ version with single-wire elements. I originally
trimmed it to freq using a (cheap) noise bridge but a graphical
antenna analyzer would be nice and easy.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On Sat, 13 Sep 2014 13:16:37 -0800, you wrote:

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