OT: Ferrite Identification Question

[James Bennett]

A bit off-thread, but sorta related, as these things ARE used for antennas with my K3/KX3!! I have a bunch of ferrites - donuts, clamp-ons, beads, etc. that I’m trying to identify the mix. With the guidance of Tom/W8JI I’ve figured out how to use my AIM-4170C analyzer to show at what frequency these things have an R=X value with Q=1. However, I’ve not been successful relating that frequency data to the mix number. An email to Fair Rite has gone unanswered, and trying to wade through their web site is mind-boggling. Does anyone on this list have a URL that points to this information?

Thanks, Jim / W6JHB
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[Jim Brown-10]

Ferrites are not easily identified. From this links on this page you can
see all of those made by Fair-Rite.

http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/materials.htm

See my tutorial for a discussion of the use of ferrites for suppression,
which is what we are doing with chokes.

k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

To make use of Tom's advice, you'll need to match your measurements with
a product data sheet.  To find the data sheet, click on "Suppression" in
this link.

http://www.fair-rite.com/cgibin/catalog.pgm

Most clamp-on ferrite parts you are likely to run into in the surplus
market have a good chance of being Fair-Rite #43 or something similar to
#43 by another company.  Fair-Rite's #31 material is a relatively unique
material, and targeted to suppression at MF and HF. MF is 300 kHz to 3
MHz, HF is 3 MHz to 30 MHz.

73, Jim K9YC

http://www.fair-rite.com/newfair/materials.htm

On Thu,6/4/2015 9:32 AM, James Bennett wrote:
> A bit off-thread, but sorta related, as these things ARE used for antennas with my K3/KX3!! I have a bunch of ferrites - donuts, clamp-ons, beads, etc. that I’m trying to identify the mix. With the guidance of Tom/W8JI I’ve figured out how to use my AIM-4170C analyzer to show at what frequency these things have an R=X value with Q=1. However, I’ve not been successful relating that frequency data to the mix number. An email to Fair Rite has gone unanswered, and trying to wade through their web site is mind-boggling. Does anyone on this list have a URL that points to this information?

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[Jim Bolit]

VK1OD had a listing of common ham radio mixes that was helpful in ID'ing mix.

Owen Duffy took his website down and I am not sure if the info has been posted somewhere else.

Jim
W6AIM


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Bennett
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2015 9:33 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Ferrite Identification Question

A bit off-thread, but sorta related, as these things ARE used for antennas with my K3/KX3!! I have a bunch of ferrites - donuts, clamp-ons, beads, etc. that I’m trying to identify the mix. With the guidance of Tom/W8JI I’ve figured out how to use my AIM-4170C analyzer to show at what frequency these things have an R=X value with Q=1. However, I’ve not been successful relating that frequency data to the mix number. An email to Fair Rite has gone unanswered, and trying to wade through their web site is mind-boggling. Does anyone on this list have a URL that points to this information?

Thanks, Jim / W6JHB
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[Dr. William J. Schmidt, II]

You actually need more than one datapoint in most cases to identify the correct part. Simply measuring the reactance with a nice antenna analyzer at several frequencies (a few loops of wire through the device) and matching that up with the theoreticals given in the data sheets will tell you everything you need to know (except saturation... And you can get that from the size).


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
 
Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois
 
Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton - J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com

email:  [hidden email]
 

> On Jun 4, 2015, at 11:32 AM, James Bennett <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> A bit off-thread, but sorta related, as these things ARE used for antennas with my K3/KX3!! I have a bunch of ferrites - donuts, clamp-ons, beads, etc. that I’m trying to identify the mix. With the guidance of Tom/W8JI I’ve figured out how to use my AIM-4170C analyzer to show at what frequency these things have an R=X value with Q=1. However, I’ve not been successful relating that frequency data to the mix number. An email to Fair Rite has gone unanswered, and trying to wade through their web site is mind-boggling. Does anyone on this list have a URL that points to this information?
>
> Thanks, Jim / W6JHB
> ______________________________________________________________
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[James Bennett]

Hi Dan,

No problem. First, please understand that (1) I’m not an EE, and (2) I’m not an expert with the 4170C. I’ve had it a year or so and am comfortable with most basic measurements it can do, but this device is capable of a LOT more than I understand!

OK, I assume that you’ve got a 4170 and have some rudimentary knowledge in how to use it. The first thing you’ll need to do is to be sure you have a way to connect bare wire to the AIM. As you know, it has an SO-239 UHF connector on the front, so that’s a problem. I bought an adapter that is quite similar to the device on the elecraft web site called a BNC-BP: BNC Male to Stackable Binding Posts. You will need something similar, but one with a PL-259 / UHF connector on it, NOT the BNC.

Next, use this adapter to build a special CAL file. You probably are aware that you need three things for a CAL: an open (that’s easy - nothing connected to the binding posts), a short (again, easy - short piece of bare wire), and a resistance. I used a pair of 100 ohm resistors in parallel (for 50 ohms). It doesn’t have to be 50 ohms, but whatever resistance value you use has to be entered on the custom cal screen. I suggest naming this cal file and saving it for future use.

Once you’ve built your custom cal file, you’re almost ready to go. Make up a length of wire long enough to pass through the ferrite in question - pass it through only once. More than that really will skew the results. Make this wire as short as possible, and connect the bare ends to the binding posts.

Here is where you will need to experiment. The Fair Rite pages show the impedance (Z) at several different frequencies. I currently am measuring a couple of the square “clamp on” / “snap on” cores. They measure about 1-1/4 inches in length and about 5/8 inch square. They were in a box marked mix 43. I set my AIM Setup—>Plot Parameters to show me Series Load (Rx) and Phase. I have my Limits set to 20 and 30 MHz, as I want to see the impedance at 25 MHz, which is one of the values shown in the Fair Rite tables for Mix 43/44 clamp-ons. You can set it at whatever you want, but know that the tables only give you a small handful of frequency values. Anyway, I’ve got my Scales value for Zmag set at 200 in the AIM. When I run a scan on this particular snap-on core and look at the Zmag it shows at the 25 MHz mark, I get a value of 160.652, which isn’t too far off of what Fair Rite shows for a core with these dimensions: 161 ohms.

I was pretty sure when I started that this was a mix 43 core, and the measurements pretty much proved it right. Had I begun with no idea, it would have taken a tad longer to figure it out. So, as I mentioned, it’ll take some playing around with the Scales & Limits settings and some careful physical dimension measurement of the core(s) in question.

Bottom line is - yes this works pretty well. No, I would NOT want to spend my day doing this for a living - it is a PITA!!

Hope this helps. 73, Jim / W6JHB

> On   Thursday, Jun 4, 2015, at  Thursday, 11:00 AM, Dan Boardman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Jim - I would be interested (if it's not to much trouble) as to how to use the AIM-4170Canalyzer to figure the ferrites and etc. that I have that are not identified.
>
> Thanks much
>
> Dan NB1C
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Bennett
> Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 12:33 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Ferrite Identification Question
>
> A bit off-thread, but sorta related, as these things ARE used for antennas with my K3/KX3!! I have a bunch of ferrites - donuts, clamp-ons, beads, etc. that I’m trying to identify the mix. With the guidance of Tom/W8JI I’ve fig
> ured out how to use my AIM-4170C analyzer to show at what frequency these things have an R=X value with Q=1. However, I’ve not been successful relating that frequency data to the mix number. An email to Fair Rite has gone unanswered, and trying to wade through their web site is mind-boggling. Does anyone on this list have a URL that points to this information?
>
> Thanks, Jim / W6JHB
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]

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[Kevin Cozens-2]

On 15-06-04 01:12 PM, jim wrote:
> VK1OD had a listing of common ham radio mixes that was helpful in ID'ing mix.

If you know the URL for that page you can check the Internet archive at
http://archive.org/ to see if it has an archive of the information.

--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include <disclaimer/favourite> |             --Chris Hardwick
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[Martin]

Elecrafters,

If you have totally unknown toroids, this useful program should help:

Download , copy to your favourite folder and run (linux users run it
under wine).

miniRingkernRechner.exe (miniToroidCalculator)from here:

http://www.df7sx.de/?page_id=212

Read HELP

Set your language , then klick on TOOLS.

Measure ID OD and height of your toroid. Enter the data.

Wind some windings of wire onto the toroid ,measure the inductance and
enter the measured data.

Now klick Unknown Toroids and take over the measured data from TOOLS.

The program will not tell you the manufacturer or type, but it will tell
you what you can expect from the toroid.

With the knowledge of the calculated data you might now be able to
identify the toroid by searching through manufacturers lists.

There are other useful tools on this site, e.g. a dB-Calculator and a
Coax Stub Calculator.

Enjoy.



--

Ohne CW ist es nur CB..

73, Martin DM4iM
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[Jim Brown-10]

On Sat,6/6/2015 3:25 AM, Martin wrote:
> If you have totally unknown toroids, this useful program should help:

Not necessarily. This program and the measurements upon which it depends
tell us about the INDUCTANCE of a core, but NOT the RESISTANCE. When we
use ferrites for suppression (common mode chokes) we are using the
RESISTANCE.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Jim Bolit]

The best way to determine the core performance is to do what the
manufacturer does.

Use an analyzer to look a Ui and U''i over frequency to get an idea of the
material type.

The 2nd best way is to wind a few turns to see what the Rs is over the
frequency of interest.

The best is to build an actual unit and measure the parameters listed above
AND resonant frequencies of the unit.

What you think is happening, most likely is not.

The "wives" tale associated with the Ugly Balun is just that.  Put an Ugly
Balun on an analyzer, and very few would use them.

Jim
W6AIM




-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Martin
Sent: Saturday, June 6, 2015 3:25 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Ferrite Identification Question

Elecrafters,

If you have totally unknown toroids, this useful program should help:

Download , copy to your favourite folder and run (linux users run it under
wine).

miniRingkernRechner.exe (miniToroidCalculator)from here:

http://www.df7sx.de/?page_id=212

Read HELP

Set your language , then klick on TOOLS.

Measure ID OD and height of your toroid. Enter the data.

Wind some windings of wire onto the toroid ,measure the inductance and enter
the measured data.

Now klick Unknown Toroids and take over the measured data from TOOLS.

The program will not tell you the manufacturer or type, but it will tell you
what you can expect from the toroid.

With the knowledge of the calculated data you might now be able to identify
the toroid by searching through manufacturers lists.

There are other useful tools on this site, e.g. a dB-Calculator and a Coax
Stub Calculator.

Enjoy.



--

Ohne CW ist es nur CB..

73, Martin DM4iM
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