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OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

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Elecraft K3

OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

Hello Wise and Powerful Reflector;

I am experiencing a confounding problem with Ham Radio Deluxe, Digital Master 780 and my K3. I've determined that HRD polling the K3 is introducing a croaking pulse-like noise into my signal chain. I know it is HRD because if I quit out of HRD, no noise. In fact, if I merely click and hold on the Radio pane in Digital Master 780, the noise ceases. Additionally, if I click and hold on the Sound Card Pane, the noise also ceases. I assume this is because that action arrests HRD's polling of the K3.

I hear it on transmit and I know it is going out with my signal because I've tuned my TH-F6A to the transmit frequency and gone out on the deck and heard it in the TH-F6A's receiver.

I assume the noise is coming in on my various antennas because pulling the antenna jack causes the noise to cease. Pulling the audio cables does nothing. I hear the noise on the K3's RX on some bands but not on others. Where I really hear it is on the TX monitor when the Line in is set high and the computer's sound card is set low. If I try the reverse - set the Line In to 2 and the sound card on the computer to 100, I can barely hear the noise.

That has been my workaround when on PSK lately but I would like to eliminate this noise altogether and keep my signal clean.

Interestingly this doesn't show up as distortion on my external IMD meter from KK7UQ. I guess the noise is too wide and not a distortion product.

I'm thinking a ferrite toroid on the antenna coax might solve this. I tried one of those clip on ferrite dealies with no joy. So the question is: does anybody on the list have any experience like this? Is a toroid a good idea? Which one and how many turns?

TIA

73 de Eric, KG6MZS
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Jim Brown-10

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

On 3/18/2011 2:51 PM, Elecraft K3 wrote:
> I am experiencing a confounding problem with Ham Radio Deluxe, Digital Master 780 and my K3. I've determined that HRD polling the K3 is introducing a croaking pulse-like noise into my signal chain.

I strongly suspect that HRD is NOT causing this problem, but rather a
problem with either the computer or the K3 generating RF trash on the
serial connection. This is not uncommon, and generally is the result of
a Pin One problem at one or more of the data and/or audio ports.
Virtually all computer sound cards and data ports have Pin One problems.

IF the trash is coupled by RF to the antenna(s), a SERIOUS multi-turn
ferrite choke on the problematic cable(s) should help. The choke should
be tuned (by varying the number of turns) to cover the frequency range
where you are hearing interference.

Study http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
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Buck - k4ia

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

There are also two pin 1 mods that solved my problems. Search the
Alerts Enhancements page on the Elecraft website.

Buck
k4ia

On 3/18/2011 6:18 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 3/18/2011 2:51 PM, Elecraft K3 wrote:
>> I am experiencing a confounding problem with Ham Radio Deluxe, Digital Master 780 and my K3. I've determined that HRD polling the K3 is introducing a croaking pulse-like noise into my signal chain.
> I strongly suspect that HRD is NOT causing this problem, but rather a
> problem with either the computer or the K3 generating RF trash on the
> serial connection. This is not uncommon, and generally is the result of
> a Pin One problem at one or more of the data and/or audio ports.
> Virtually all computer sound cards and data ports have Pin One problems.
>
> IF the trash is coupled by RF to the antenna(s), a SERIOUS multi-turn
> ferrite choke on the problematic cable(s) should help. The choke should
> be tuned (by varying the number of turns) to cover the frequency range
> where you are hearing interference.
>
> Study http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Elecraft K3

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Hi Jim;

Thanks for the reply. HRD must be the source of the signal. It disappears mid croak when I quit HRD. That's not to say HRD is to *blame*.

I have read your excellent and comprehensive treatise on RFI and that is what prompted me to suspect a "SERIOUS multi-turn ferrite choke" was needed. I am embarrassed to say that I am a graphic designer that is new to the hobby and your article goes over my head in a hurry! I was hoping for specific suggestions about a manufacturer, product and number of turns.

I suspect the "problematic cable(s)" is the coax coming in from the antennas. It's not my tuner that is the problem because I tried completely taking it out of line and the noise persists. I'm not sure how to check the USB to serial cable. The noise goes completely away on RX when the antenna is disconnected. I have no way to check on TX without an antenna.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond.

73 de Eric, KG6MZS

On Mar 18, 2011, at 3:18 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> I strongly suspect that HRD is NOT causing this problem, but rather a
> problem with either the computer or the K3 generating RF trash on the
> serial connection. This is not uncommon, and generally is the result of
> a Pin One problem at one or more of the data and/or audio ports.
> Virtually all computer sound cards and data ports have Pin One problems.
>
> IF the trash is coupled by RF to the antenna(s), a SERIOUS multi-turn
> ferrite choke on the problematic cable(s) should help. The choke should
> be tuned (by varying the number of turns) to cover the frequency range
> where you are hearing interference.
>
> Study http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Elecraft K3

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

In reply to this post by Elecraft K3

Hi Joe;

Thank you for the reply. As I mentioned to Jim , the noise completely disappears on RX when the antenna is disconnected. This leads me to suspect that the RFI is coming in on the antenna cable. Does that sound right? If it was coming in on the USB to serial I would expect to still hear it when the antenna was disconnected.

73 de Eric, KG6MZS

On Mar 18, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> Replace the cable on your USB to serial interface and make sure
> your K3 has all of the "RFI" mods, particularly those involving
> the KIO3.
>
> What you are hearing is common mode noise from the USB cable that
> is being radiated into your antenna or being conducted via the
> RS-232 cable.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 3/18/2011 5:51 PM, Elecraft K3 wrote:
>> Hello Wise and Powerful Reflector;
>>
>> I am experiencing a confounding problem with Ham Radio Deluxe, Digital Master 780 and my K3. I've determined that HRD polling the K3 is introducing a croaking pulse-like noise into my signal chain. I know it is HRD because if I quit out of HRD, no noise. In fact, if I merely click and hold on the Radio pane in Digital Master 780, the noise ceases. Additionally, if I click and hold on the Sound Card Pane, the noise also ceases. I assume this is because that action arrests HRD's polling of the K3.
>>
>> I hear it on transmit and I know it is going out with my signal because I've tuned my TH-F6A to the transmit frequency and gone out on the deck and heard it in the TH-F6A's receiver.
>>
>> I assume the noise is coming in on my various antennas because pulling the antenna jack causes the noise to cease. Pulling the audio cables does nothing. I hear the noise on the K3's RX on some bands but not on others. Where I really hear it is on the TX monitor when the Line in is set high and the computer's sound card is set low. If I try the reverse - set the Line In to 2 and the sound card on the computer to 100, I can barely hear the noise.
>>
>> That has been my workaround when on PSK lately but I would like to eliminate this noise altogether and keep my signal clean.
>>
>> Interestingly this doesn't show up as distortion on my external IMD meter from KK7UQ. I guess the noise is too wide and not a distortion product.
>>
>> I'm thinking a ferrite toroid on the antenna coax might solve this. I tried one of those clip on ferrite dealies with no joy. So the question is: does anybody on the list have any experience like this? Is a toroid a good idea? Which one and how many turns?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> 73 de Eric, KG6MZS
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

Eric,

Joe is correct.

The fact that the noise disappears when the antenna is disconnected AND
when you shut down HRD indicates that your serial cable and/or the USB
to serial adapter is radiating trash and that trash is being picked up
by your antenna.

Jim's suggestions are valid for that sort of condition - kill the bad
stuff at the source, don't try to fix the symptoms (which is harder to
do anyway).

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/18/2011 9:10 PM, Elecraft K3 wrote:

> Hi Joe;
>
> Thank you for the reply. As I mentioned to Jim , the noise completely disappears on RX when the antenna is disconnected. This leads me to suspect that the RFI is coming in on the antenna cable. Does that sound right? If it was coming in on the USB to serial I would expect to still hear it when the antenna was disconnected.
>
> 73 de Eric, KG6MZS
>
>
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>> Replace the cable on your USB to serial interface and make sure
>> your K3 has all of the "RFI" mods, particularly those involving
>> the KIO3.
>>
>> What you are hearing is common mode noise from the USB cable that
>> is being radiated into your antenna or being conducted via the
>> RS-232 cable.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

In reply to this post by Elecraft K3

On 3/18/2011 5:43 PM, Elecraft K3 wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. HRD must be the source of the signal.

It's NOT. The digital circuitry producing RFI is the SOURCE of the problem.

> I have read your excellent and comprehensive treatise on RFI and that is what prompted me to suspect a "SERIOUS multi-turn ferrite choke" was needed. I am embarrassed to say that I am a graphic designer that is new to the hobby and your article goes over my head in a hurry! I was hoping for specific suggestions about a manufacturer, product and number of turns.

It's in the tutorial.

73, Jim K9YC

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Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

Administrator

In reply to this post by Elecraft K3

You've got plenty of answers about proper cables and application of ferrite noise suppression, but one thing hasn't been mentioned: Are you using the Elecraft KUSB or one you bought on your own?
I have a few different USB RS232 devices, and there's one I have that's consistently noisy.

Also, with the noisy one (when I used it) I found that paying attention to cable dress helps; i.e., route your RS232 and USB cables away from (perhaps at right angles to) the audio cables.

Leigh/WA5ZNU

Jim Brown-10

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

On 3/18/2011 9:11 PM, Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU wrote:
> I found that paying attention to cable dress helps; i.e., route your RS232 and USB cables away from (perhaps at right angles to) the audio cables.

That's another symptom of Pin One problems in the equipment where both
cables are connected. That is, one cable is radiating the RF and the
other is receiving it. If the equipment was built properly, that should
not matter.

73, Jim K9YC
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ik1bxn

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

In the past (in other situation and not k3 vs HRD) using shielded cable for serial connection and connecting its shield to signal ground ONLY at one edge (leaving shield disconnected at the other edge) helped me to fix noise capture. Maybe this may help also in this case. 73 to everybody

vk4tux

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

In reply to this post by Elecraft K3

I use one of these, works great;

http://www.coilcraft.com/rs232.cfm#table

Adrian ... vk4tux

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Jim Brown-10

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

In reply to this post by ik1bxn

On 3/19/2011 1:42 AM, ik1bxn wrote:
> In the past (in other situation and not k3 vs HRD) using shielded cable for
> serial connection and connecting its shield to signal ground ONLY at one
> edge (leaving shield disconnected at the other edge) helped me to fix noise
> capture. Maybe this may help also in this case. 73 to everybody

NEVER connect a cable shield to "signal ground" -- this MAKES a Pin One
Problem. The only proper connection of a cable shield is the SHIELDING
ENCLOSURE (like the chasssis).

When you disconnect the shield at one end, you stop shield current.
That CAN be an acceptable fix, but it can also CAUSE noise and RF
problems because it shields noise from only one end of the cable.

73, Jim K9YC
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ik1bxn

Re: OT Hearing HRD Communicate w/K3

ooops please apologize me ! I did mistake during translation in my mind , I ment chassis ! sorry for the confusion I may have created. Thanks Jim for correction ! 73 to everybody e grazie