Elecraft

[OT] Lead-acid battery question

Classic

List

Threaded

13 messages Options

Vic Rosenthal

[OT] Lead-acid battery question

I know there are those on this list who can help me.

I have a 5 kW generator at my house. It runs automatically once a week for a half hour to
charge the (sealed) battery. The first battery lasted for about 10 years! The present
battery is about 2 years old.

Some months ago, I noticed that it wasn't running. I found the battery dead. I took the
battery back to Batteries Plus where I got it; they charged it overnight and tested it
under load. They said the battery was OK. When I started the generator and checked the
charging voltage, it was 13.8V which I thought was marginal, so I replaced it.

Yesterday the generator would not start. The battery voltage with no load was 11.5V. I
left it on the charger all day. Then this morning I checked the voltage and it was 13.5V.
The generator started up and the charging voltage was 14.5V.

Do I have a bad battery?

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Jim Wiley

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

Sounds like your setup is not providing enough run time to fully
recharge the battery. Rather than fiddling with the existing engine
settings, I would suggest getting a small 1-ampere or so "trickle
charger" from a place like Wal-Mart or Sears. You will not need
anything larger, and the low-rate should be safe for the battery
long-term. Running the engine once a week seems excessive if all you
want to do is test it tomake sure it starts. Once a month is all I used
when I had a 15-KW diesel set, and it never failed to start in 20+
years. The trickle charger of course runs from the standard commercial
power outlet. You do not need to disconnect the existing charging
system, just hook up the new charger in parallel.

- Jim, KL7CC

On 4/8/2013 8:15 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote:

> I know there are those on this list who can help me.
>
> I have a 5 kW generator at my house. It runs automatically once a week
> for a half hour to charge the (sealed) battery. The first battery
> lasted for about 10 years! The present battery is about 2 years old.
>
> Some months ago, I noticed that it wasn't running. I found the battery
> dead. I took the battery back to Batteries Plus where I got it; they
> charged it overnight and tested it under load. They said the battery
> was OK. When I started the generator and checked the charging voltage,
> it was 13.8V which I thought was marginal, so I replaced it.
>
> Yesterday the generator would not start. The battery voltage with no
> load was 11.5V. I left it on the charger all day. Then this morning I
> checked the voltage and it was 13.5V. The generator started up and the
> charging voltage was 14.5V.
>
> Do I have a bad battery?
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Jim Wiley

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

Forgot to mention - be sure to get a charger that is intended for use
with sealed batteries! A charger intended for flooded batteries may be
set to too high a voltage, and could damage a sealed battery.

- Jim, KL7CC

On 4/8/2013 8:15 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote:

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Jim Wiley

A small charger will work if the battery is still good.

Before I assumed that, I'd charge the battery with a good charger, then
do a load test to see if it actually stores power.

I've had "sealed" batteries that were damaged in shipping. Looked fine,
but outgassed and dried out. Took a couple of years.

Usually, the periodic "run" is to bring the oil to temperature and
distribute it around the engine, not primarily for battery charging.

-- Lynn

On 4/8/2013 9:51 AM, Jim Wiley wrote:

> Sounds like your setup is not providing enough run time to fully
> recharge the battery. Rather than fiddling with the existing engine
> settings, I would suggest getting a small 1-ampere or so "trickle
> charger" from a place like Wal-Mart or Sears. You will not need
> anything larger, and the low-rate should be safe for the battery
> long-term. Running the engine once a week seems excessive if all you
> want to do is test it tomake sure it starts. Once a month is all I used
> when I had a 15-KW diesel set, and it never failed to start in 20+
> years. The trickle charger of course runs from the standard commercial
> power outlet. You do not need to disconnect the existing charging
> system, just hook up the new charger in parallel.
>
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
> On 4/8/2013 8:15 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote:
>> I know there are those on this list who can help me.
>>
>> I have a 5 kW generator at my house. It runs automatically once a week
>> for a half hour to charge the (sealed) battery. The first battery
>> lasted for about 10 years! The present battery is about 2 years old.
>>
>> Some months ago, I noticed that it wasn't running. I found the battery
>> dead. I took the battery back to Batteries Plus where I got it; they
>> charged it overnight and tested it under load. They said the battery
>> was OK. When I started the generator and checked the charging voltage,
>> it was 13.8V which I thought was marginal, so I replaced it.
>>
>> Yesterday the generator would not start. The battery voltage with no
>> load was 11.5V. I left it on the charger all day. Then this morning I
>> checked the voltage and it was 13.5V. The generator started up and the
>> charging voltage was 14.5V.
>>
>> Do I have a bad battery?
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Vic Rosenthal

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

I see that my original post was not clear. I should have said that after the first
instance of a dead battery, after the battery was tested and pronounced good, I replaced
the VOLTAGE REGULATOR.

I'm not sure about the type of electrolyte, whether it's gel or liquid, but I think it is
liquid. The battery is sealed, though. The capacity is 665 AH with "540 CCA."

I've received several responses to check if the battery is draining when the generator is
not running. I should have mentioned that I did this the first time it died, and there was
no current drain when it wasn't running.

On 4/8/2013 9:15 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote:

> I know there are those on this list who can help me.
>
> I have a 5 kW generator at my house. It runs automatically once a week for a half hour
> to charge the (sealed) battery. The first battery lasted for about 10 years! The present
> battery is about 2 years old.
>
> Some months ago, I noticed that it wasn't running. I found the battery dead. I took the
> battery back to Batteries Plus where I got it; they charged it overnight and tested it
> under load. They said the battery was OK. When I started the generator and checked the
> charging voltage, it was 13.8V which I thought was marginal, so I replaced it.
>
> Yesterday the generator would not start. The battery voltage with no load was 11.5V. I
> left it on the charger all day. Then this morning I checked the voltage and it was
> 13.5V. The generator started up and the charging voltage was 14.5V.
>
> Do I have a bad battery?
>
>
> --
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

Bob-270

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Jim Wiley

Well my bet would be a bad battery. Seems that either the self discharge rate
is high, because it is defective, or the controller for the automated cycling is
drawing excessive current and discharging the battery between cycles. The
fact that a battery "takes" a charge does not mean that it will maintain it.

Regarding chargers I have had good experience with these:

http://batterytender.com/products/automotive/battery-tender-plus-12v-at-1-25a.html

Don't be scared off by the price tag as they can be had for far less. In the
$35-$40 range if you shop around. I use these for my backup gel cells and
mostly for maintaining my motorcycle batteries over the winter. The motorcycle
batteries are AGM types.

73,
Bob
K2TK ex KN2TKR (1956) & K2TKR

K2 & K3 plus a bunch of G land MC's

On 4/8/2013 12:53 PM, Jim Wiley wrote:

> Forgot to mention - be sure to get a charger that is intended for use with
> sealed batteries! A charger intended for flooded batteries may be set to too
> high a voltage, and could damage a sealed battery.
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
> On 4/8/2013 8:15 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote:
>> I know there are those on this list who can help me.
>>
>> I have a 5 kW generator at my house. It runs automatically once a week for a
>> half hour to charge the (sealed) battery. The first battery lasted for about
>> 10 years! The present battery is about 2 years old.
>>
>> Some months ago, I noticed that it wasn't running. I found the battery dead.
>> I took the battery back to Batteries Plus where I got it; they charged it
>> overnight and tested it under load. They said the battery was OK. When I
>> started the generator and checked the charging voltage, it was 13.8V which I
>> thought was marginal, so I replaced it.
>>
>> Yesterday the generator would not start. The battery voltage with no load was
>> 11.5V. I left it on the charger all day. Then this morning I checked the
>> voltage and it was 13.5V. The generator started up and the charging voltage
>> was 14.5V.
>>
>> Do I have a bad battery?
>>
>

riese-k3djc

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

well it certanily sounds unhappy
check to see if there is any drain
as your system sets idle,, something
may be draining the battery

Bob K3DJC
On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 09:15:44 -0700 Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]>
writes:

> I know there are those on this list who can help me.
>
> I have a 5 kW generator at my house. It runs automatically once a
> week for a half hour to
> charge the (sealed) battery. The first battery lasted for about 10
> years! The present
> battery is about 2 years old.
>
> Some months ago, I noticed that it wasn't running. I found the
> battery dead. I took the
> battery back to Batteries Plus where I got it; they charged it
> overnight and tested it
> under load. They said the battery was OK. When I started the
> generator and checked the
> charging voltage, it was 13.8V which I thought was marginal, so I
> replaced it.
>
> Yesterday the generator would not start. The battery voltage with no
> load was 11.5V. I
> left it on the charger all day. Then this morning I checked the
> voltage and it was 13.5V.
> The generator started up and the charging voltage was 14.5V.
>
> Do I have a bad battery?
>
> --
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

riese-k3djc

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

Phil Kane-2

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Jim Wiley

On 4/8/2013 9:51 AM, Jim Wiley wrote:

> Running the engine once a week seems excessive if all you
> want to do is test it tomake sure it starts. Once a month is all I used
> when I had a 15-KW diesel set, and it never failed to start in 20+
> years.

Once a week is standard in our Public Safety and medical support comm
centers, after the terrible experience that a (national) telephone
utility had after an earthquake when they tried to start a gas turbine
and it literally blew itself apart - it had never been tested or
inspected in several years in an effort to reduce costs.

The test isn't whether it will start so much as whether it will pick up
and maintain the rated load.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

Member, Washington County, OR
Emergency Communications Team
for ARES/RACES and HEARTNET

Station Co-manager - W7PSV / K7PSV
Providence St. Vincent Medical Center
Disaster Communication Team
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Fred Townsend-2

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

Vic let me clarify a few issues.
1. At 665 AH your sealed battery is almost certainly a wet battery
(i.e. not a gel).
2. A charging voltage between 13.5 and 14.2 is normal. 14.5 is a bit
high unless the charger is temperature compensated and the weather is very
cold (in the area of your generator). Another cause would be if you measured
the charging voltage without a battery attached (i.e. no load). In any event
your real problem does not appear to be too high a charging voltage.
3. A measured voltage of 11.5 is a fully discharged battery. A 1 A
trickle charger would need 665 hours (actually even more because of
inefficiencies) to fully recharge that battery.
4. Why did you replace the old battery after 10 years? In your almost
ideal circumstances it could easily last 25 years. The nature of lead acid
batteries is they fail when fully discharged. That can kill even a new
battery which may be the case now.
5. Logically I must ask: Have you fixed the original problem? Battery
failure is likely a secondary problem. Ruling out two bad batteries (the old
and new batteries) has the generator become hard starting or else is there
another drain on the battery?

To find your problem you need to get a fully charged battery and monitor the
operation of the generator. Have you cleaned all the terminals and otherwise
verified the cables? Does it start hard? Does the started solenoid get warm
when not in use? Is there 13.5 to 14.2 volts on the battery posts (don't
measure the cable terminals) when the generator is running? When the
generator is off is there a battery drain? It may take a milliamp meter to
tell but be careful not to use it while charging or you may smoke the meter.
Remember ammeters are always placed in series, never in parallel (instant
smoke).

Try these procedures and get back to us.
73
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vic K2VCO
Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:13 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Lead-acid battery question

I see that my original post was not clear. I should have said that after the
first instance of a dead battery, after the battery was tested and
pronounced good, I replaced the VOLTAGE REGULATOR.

I'm not sure about the type of electrolyte, whether it's gel or liquid, but
I think it is liquid. The battery is sealed, though. The capacity is 665 AH
with "540 CCA."

I've received several responses to check if the battery is draining when the
generator is not running. I should have mentioned that I did this the first
time it died, and there was no current drain when it wasn't running.

On 4/8/2013 9:15 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote:

was 13.8V which I thought was marginal, so I replaced it.
>
> Yesterday the generator would not start. The battery voltage with no
> load was 11.5V. I left it on the charger all day. Then this morning I
> checked the voltage and it was 13.5V. The generator started up and the
charging voltage was 14.5V.
>
> Do I have a bad battery?
>
>
> --
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Vic Rosenthal

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

The charging voltage was measured with the battery connected.

Although it says "ca 665" on it, judging by the size it must 65 AH!

I charged it for a period of 12 hours with an initial charging current of about 7A, which
dropped to 2A.

I replaced the old battery because it went dead, and then when I charged it it did not
recover. I think the voltage regulator was bad and not producing enough charging voltage.
Then the battery was damaged because I didn't notice it was dead for a couple of weeks.

The new battery also went dead. I then checked the charging voltage and it was 13.8V. I
thought it was marginal, so I replaced the voltage regulator. Now I'm getting 14.5V when
the engine is running. But I am thinking that I damaged the new battery when I allowed it
to die before replacing the voltage regulator.

The connections have been cleaned. It is not particularly hard to start (cranks for about
5-7 seconds and starts). No drain at all when it is off.

On 4/8/2013 11:22 AM, Fred Townsend wrote:

>
> Vic let me clarify a few issues.
>
> 1.At 665 AH your sealed battery is almost certainly a wet battery (i.e. not a gel).
>
> 2.A charging voltage between 13.5 and 14.2 is normal. 14.5 is a bit high unless the
> charger is temperature compensated and the weather is very cold (in the area of your
> generator). Another cause would be if you measured the charging voltage without a
> battery attached (i.e. no load). _In any event your real problem does not appear to be
> too high a charging voltage._
>
> 3.A measured voltage of 11.5 is a fully discharged battery. A 1 A trickle charger would
> need 665 hours (actually even more because of inefficiencies) to fully recharge that
> battery.
>
> 4.Why did you replace the old battery after 10 years? In your almost ideal circumstances
> it could easily last 25 years. The nature of lead acid batteries is they fail when
> _fully discharged_. That can kill even a new battery which may be the case now.
>
> 5.Logically I must ask: Have you fixed the original problem? Battery failure is likely a
> secondary problem. Ruling out two bad batteries (the old and new batteries) has the
> generator become hard starting or else is there another drain on the battery?
>
> To find your problem you need to get a fully charged battery and monitor the operation
> of the generator. Have you cleaned all the terminals and otherwise verified the cables?
> Does it start hard? Does the started solenoid get warm when not in use? Is there 13.5
> to 14.2 volts on the battery posts (don't measure the cable terminals) when the
> generator is running? When the generator is off is there a battery drain? It may take a
> milliamp meter to tell but be careful not to use it while charging or you may smoke the
> meter. Remember ammeters are always placed in series, never in parallel (instant smoke).
>
> Try these procedures and get back to us.
>
> 73
>
> Fred, AE6QL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On
> Behalf Of Vic K2VCO
> Sent: Monday, April 08, 2013 10:13 AM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Lead-acid battery question
>
> I see that my original post was not clear. I should have said that after the first
> instance of a dead battery, after the battery was tested and pronounced good, I replaced
> the VOLTAGE REGULATOR.
>
> I'm not sure about the type of electrolyte, whether it's gel or liquid, but I think it
> is liquid. The battery is sealed, though. The capacity is 665 AH with "540 CCA."
>
> I've received several responses to check if the battery is draining when the generator
> is not running. I should have mentioned that I did this the first time it died, and
> there was no current drain when it wasn't running.
>
> On 4/8/2013 9:15 AM, Vic K2VCO wrote:
>
> > I know there are those on this list who can help me.
>
> >
>
> > I have a 5 kW generator at my house. It runs automatically once a week
>
> > for a half hour to charge the (sealed) battery. The first battery
>
> > lasted for about 10 years! The present battery is about 2 years old.
>
> >
>
> > Some months ago, I noticed that it wasn't running. I found the battery
>
> > dead. I took the battery back to Batteries Plus where I got it; they
>
> > charged it overnight and tested it under load. They said the battery
>
> > was OK. When I started the generator and checked the charging voltage, it was 13.8V
> which I thought was marginal, so I replaced it.
>
> >
>
> > Yesterday the generator would not start. The battery voltage with no
>
> > load was 11.5V. I left it on the charger all day. Then this morning I
>
> > checked the voltage and it was 13.5V. The generator started up and the charging
> voltage was 14.5V.
>
> >
>
> > Do I have a bad battery?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > Vic, K2VCO
>
> > Fresno CA
>
> > http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Elecraft mailing list
>
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Tim Groat

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

665 "CA" would be cranking amps (normal temperature), vs. the lower
"CCA" rating which is cold cranking amps. Unlike marine or RV batteries,
a starting battery have low ampere hours for its size: it's optimized
for high current loading, not for run-time.

I agree with those who suggest a good quality float charger to
continually maintain the battery at full charge. Be sure it has a true
float mode (not just an automatic charge cut-off), and avoid bargain
priced chargers (they often have poor voltage regulation). I wouldn't be
surprised if your generator controller has one; perhaps it has failed.

I hope you get the problem fixed!

--Tim (KR0U)
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Edward R Cole

Re: [OT] Lead-acid battery question

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

I have a 6500w electric-start Honda which had similar battery
problems. Mine were that I did not run it often enough and cold
winter wx in AK saps the battery over time. My solution was to use a
12v 500ma charger on the battery which is just enough to maintain
it. My generator is wired into the house via a transfer switch so I
just stole some 120vac from the switch (fused at the panel since it
is on the commercial side of the main breaker).

What is nice is I can power the entire house when commercial power is
off (even running my 2m-8877).

73, Ed - KL7UW

From: Jim Wiley <[hidden email]>
To: Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Lead-acid battery question

The trickle charger of course runs from the standard commercial
power outlet. You do not need to disconnect the existing charging
system, just hook up the new charger in parallel.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html