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OT--RFI Issue

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w7aqk

OT--RFI Issue

Hi All,

I am in need of some informed counseling. Hopefully I won't start a thread
of "war stories".

Some time back, my neighbor complained that I was getting into his TV
system. He has Dish Network, by the way, which is the same thing I have.
Anyway, I immediately tried to be responsive, went to his house to hear the
problem for myself, with the aide of another local op who operated my rig
while I listened. I was getting into his system all right, but it was an
anomoly. I don't have any problem with my own systems here. Anyway, I
tried a few toroidal filters, but it didn't seem to help. Fortunately, I
got some assistance from the local ARRL RFI committee, and it was determined
that it was his sub-woofer leads that were the culprit, and I had not
filtered that particular lead previously. He has a serious "rats nest"
wiring system running all through his house. Anyway, A filter seemed to
solve the issue.

Fast forward to the present--now I'm told he thinks I am getting into his
phone system and his internet! I can believe the phone thing--that's not
uncommon, but also not necessarily indicative of a dirty signal. On the
other hand, I've never heard of a problem with someone's internet
connection. We both use the same internet system also--Cox Cable internet,
and I don't have any problem whatsoever here at my own house. He is not far
away, but obviously farther away than my own systems!

I suspect he may be a bit paranoid, and is assuming "any problem" is being
caused by me. However, I want to be proactive! I do, however, want to try
and be logical about the whole thing. Intuitively, I assume that if I was
transmitting a "dirty" signal, it would probably affect my phone system
(also wireless like he has, but probably a different brand) and internet
service. Also, I have now added a low pass filter, but haven't checked to
see if that made any difference, but I will. For one thing, I'm going to
try and talk to the guy "on the phone" to see If I can hear anything when I
key up. I've also been reviewing my connections. In any event, I don't
want to make the mistake of assuming that, just because I don't have a
problem with my systems, it must be faulty equipment at his end--or
something entirely unassociated with my operating.

So, any thoughts or ideas from the group?

Dave W7AQK

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daleputnam

Re: OT--RFI Issue

Hi David, The internet connections in his house are very likely not as well grounded/connected with quality cat5 or better wire, and the entry point of stray rf, could be any one of the runs of internet wiring that he may have strung around. A clue may be, how much power does it take to "mess up" his connections. During the initial conversation it would be good to establish if it is any connection or just one that is a problem... any website... any location in the house... or every location... what does he have for a router?? Wireless or wired?and when did it start? Relative to when he added or changed something? That would a clue to locate the offending connection. Good luck, this is a tuff one... lots of pitfalls... to watch out for... you don't want to suggest a complete wire change... you'll be wiring his house for network.... although... it sounds like that could likely fix it.

Have a great day,

--... ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy

> From: [hidden email]

> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:30:51 -0700
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT--RFI Issue
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am in need of some informed counseling. Hopefully I won't start a thread
> of "war stories".
>
> Some time back, my neighbor complained that I was getting into his TV
> system. He has Dish Network, by the way, which is the same thing I have.
> Anyway, I immediately tried to be responsive, went to his house to hear the
> problem for myself, with the aide of another local op who operated my rig
> while I listened. I was getting into his system all right, but it was an
> anomoly. I don't have any problem with my own systems here. Anyway, I
> tried a few toroidal filters, but it didn't seem to help. Fortunately, I
> got some assistance from the local ARRL RFI committee, and it was determined
> that it was his sub-woofer leads that were the culprit, and I had not
> filtered that particular lead previously. He has a serious "rats nest"
> wiring system running all through his house. Anyway, A filter seemed to
> solve the issue.
>
> Fast forward to the present--now I'm told he thinks I am getting into his
> phone system and his internet! I can believe the phone thing--that's not
> uncommon, but also not necessarily indicative of a dirty signal. On the
> other hand, I've never heard of a problem with someone's internet
> connection. We both use the same internet system also--Cox Cable internet,
> and I don't have any problem whatsoever here at my own house. He is not far
> away, but obviously farther away than my own systems!
>
> I suspect he may be a bit paranoid, and is assuming "any problem" is being
> caused by me. However, I want to be proactive! I do, however, want to try
> and be logical about the whole thing. Intuitively, I assume that if I was
> transmitting a "dirty" signal, it would probably affect my phone system
> (also wireless like he has, but probably a different brand) and internet
> service. Also, I have now added a low pass filter, but haven't checked to
> see if that made any difference, but I will. For one thing, I'm going to
> try and talk to the guy "on the phone" to see If I can hear anything when I
> key up. I've also been reviewing my connections. In any event, I don't
> want to make the mistake of assuming that, just because I don't have a
> problem with my systems, it must be faulty equipment at his end--or
> something entirely unassociated with my operating.
>
> So, any thoughts or ideas from the group?
>
> Dave W7AQK
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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ke9uw

Re: OT--RFI Issue

Interference in a cable tv or internet is almost always loose ground shield somewhere. I have had that happen more than once, including my own cable drop, and tightening the shield nuts has always fixed it.

Sent from my iPad
Chuck, KE9UW
(Jack for BMW motorcycles)

On Mar 18, 2013, at 10:21 PM, "Dale Putnam" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi David, The internet connections in his house are very likely not as well grounded/connected with quality cat5 or better wire, and the entry point of stray rf, could be any one of the runs of internet wiring that he may have strung around. A clue may be, how much power does it take to "mess up" his connections. During the initial conversation it would be good to establish if it is any connection or just one that is a problem... any website... any location in the house... or every location... what does he have for a router?? Wireless or wired?and when did it start? Relative to when he added or changed something? That would a clue to locate the offending connection. Good luck, this is a tuff one... lots of pitfalls... to watch out for... you don't want to suggest a complete wire change... you'll be wiring his house for network.... although... it sounds like that could likely fix it.
>
> Have a great day,
>
>
> --... ...--
> Dale - WC7S in Wy
>
>
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:30:51 -0700
>> Subject: [Elecraft] OT--RFI Issue
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am in need of some informed counseling. Hopefully I won't start a thread
>> of "war stories".
>>
>> Some time back, my neighbor complained that I was getting into his TV
>> system. He has Dish Network, by the way, which is the same thing I have.
>> Anyway, I immediately tried to be responsive, went to his house to hear the
>> problem for myself, with the aide of another local op who operated my rig
>> while I listened. I was getting into his system all right, but it was an
>> anomoly. I don't have any problem with my own systems here. Anyway, I
>> tried a few toroidal filters, but it didn't seem to help. Fortunately, I
>> got some assistance from the local ARRL RFI committee, and it was determined
>> that it was his sub-woofer leads that were the culprit, and I had not
>> filtered that particular lead previously. He has a serious "rats nest"
>> wiring system running all through his house. Anyway, A filter seemed to
>> solve the issue.
>>
>> Fast forward to the present--now I'm told he thinks I am getting into his
>> phone system and his internet! I can believe the phone thing--that's not
>> uncommon, but also not necessarily indicative of a dirty signal. On the
>> other hand, I've never heard of a problem with someone's internet
>> connection. We both use the same internet system also--Cox Cable internet,
>> and I don't have any problem whatsoever here at my own house. He is not far
>> away, but obviously farther away than my own systems!
>>
>> I suspect he may be a bit paranoid, and is assuming "any problem" is being
>> caused by me. However, I want to be proactive! I do, however, want to try
>> and be logical about the whole thing. Intuitively, I assume that if I was
>> transmitting a "dirty" signal, it would probably affect my phone system
>> (also wireless like he has, but probably a different brand) and internet
>> service. Also, I have now added a low pass filter, but haven't checked to
>> see if that made any difference, but I will. For one thing, I'm going to
>> try and talk to the guy "on the phone" to see If I can hear anything when I
>> key up. I've also been reviewing my connections. In any event, I don't
>> want to make the mistake of assuming that, just because I don't have a
>> problem with my systems, it must be faulty equipment at his end--or
>> something entirely unassociated with my operating.
>>
>> So, any thoughts or ideas from the group?
>>
>> Dave W7AQK
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Chuck, KE9UW

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by w7aqk

David,

This is reminiscent of the old days of TVI.
One of the guidelines back then was - avoid making any changes to that
neighbor's system by yourself. If you do, you may be "responsible" for
any future strange "happenings".
Your position should be to offer to assist a qualified technician in
isolating and correcting any deficiencies by providing periods of
operating to test the results of any repairs.

Exceptions may be OK if you are on really good and friendly terms with
your neighbor, but it does not sound to me like that is the case.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/18/2013 10:30 PM, Dyarnes wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am in need of some informed counseling. Hopefully I won't start a
> thread of "war stories".
>
> Some time back, my neighbor complained that I was getting into his TV
> system. He has Dish Network, by the way, which is the same thing I
> have. Anyway, I immediately tried to be responsive, went to his house
> to hear the problem for myself, with the aide of another local op who
> operated my rig while I listened. I was getting into his system all
> right, but it was an anomoly. I don't have any problem with my own
> systems here. Anyway, I tried a few toroidal filters, but it didn't
> seem to help. Fortunately, I got some assistance from the local ARRL
> RFI committee, and it was determined that it was his sub-woofer leads
> that were the culprit, and I had not filtered that particular lead
> previously. He has a serious "rats nest" wiring system running all
> through his house. Anyway, A filter seemed to solve the issue.
>
> Fast forward to the present--now I'm told he thinks I am getting into
> his phone system and his internet! I can believe the phone
> thing--that's not uncommon, but also not necessarily indicative of a
> dirty signal. On the other hand, I've never heard of a problem with
> someone's internet connection. We both use the same internet system
> also--Cox Cable internet, and I don't have any problem whatsoever here
> at my own house. He is not far away, but obviously farther away than
> my own systems!
>
> I suspect he may be a bit paranoid, and is assuming "any problem" is
> being caused by me. However, I want to be proactive! I do, however,
> want to try and be logical about the whole thing. Intuitively, I
> assume that if I was transmitting a "dirty" signal, it would probably
> affect my phone system (also wireless like he has, but probably a
> different brand) and internet service. Also, I have now added a low
> pass filter, but haven't checked to see if that made any difference,
> but I will. For one thing, I'm going to try and talk to the guy "on
> the phone" to see If I can hear anything when I key up. I've also
> been reviewing my connections. In any event, I don't want to make the
> mistake of assuming that, just because I don't have a problem with my
> systems, it must be faulty equipment at his end--or something entirely
> unassociated with my operating.
>

Richard Fjeld

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by w7aqk

This is when logging can really payoff. I have seen it related to a specific frequency.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dyarnes
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 9:30 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT--RFI Issue

Hi All,

I am in need of some informed counseling. Hopefully I won't start a thread
of "war stories".

______________________________________________________________
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Kurt Pawlikowski

Re: OT--RFI Issue

Dave,

Along this line, logging will tell you /whether/ its you or random.
But, maybe you've already established that...? It's really hard to
eliminate it if it's not you! {'-)

Regards,

kurtt

Kurt Pawlikowski, AKA WB9FMC
The Pinrod Corporation
[hidden email]
(773) 284-9500
http://pinrod.com
On 3/18/2013 23:08, Richard Fjeld wrote:

> This is when logging can really payoff. I have seen it related to a specific frequency.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dyarnes
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 9:30 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT--RFI Issue
>
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am in need of some informed counseling. Hopefully I won't start a thread
> of "war stories".
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Phil Kane-2

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

On 3/18/2013 8:36 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> This is reminiscent of the old days of TVI.
> One of the guidelines back then was - avoid making any changes to that
> neighbor's system by yourself. If you do, you may be "responsible" for
> any future strange "happenings".
> Your position should be to offer to assist a qualified technician in
> isolating and correcting any deficiencies by providing periods of
> operating to test the results of any repairs.

Don's reply is right on target today as it was 50 years ago when I first
got into the "RFI-chasing" business. I give that advice to all hams who
come to me on ARRL-referral and also remind them (us?) to ensure that
the station and its signals meet FCC requirements.

In my experience, the type of TVI/RFI/Audio rectification being
described is not due to a "dirty signal" but is a result of unwanted
reaction to the actual ("main") signal itself and the "cure" lies with
the affected installation, not with the radio station.. This is one of
the hardest things to sell to the affected party.

Although we operate "in the public interest", too many hams want to be
"Mister Fixit" which with today's state of consumer electronics is not
only a dangerous thing to attempt in terms of future liability but also
a hopeless task. How does one put a toroid around a circuit board
trace? <G>

My 2 cents' worth.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

ARRL Volunteer Counsel
ARRL Volunteer Consulting Engineer
(FCC San Francisco District Director - retired)

VP - General Counsel and Engineering Manager
CSI Telecommunications, Inc. - Consulting Engineers
San Francisco, CA - Beaverton, OR
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w7aqk

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by w7aqk

Hi All,

First, I hope this thread isn't viewed adversely by the moderator. I think
it's educational, at a minimum. Of course, I have a vested interest in the
topic right now, but sooner or later, just about every ham will probably
face this issue--rightly or wrongly!

I loved the old Jimmy Hatlo cartoon that "Missouri Guy" posted! Hatlo's
cartoons were a mainstay years back, and I sure miss them.

I very much tend to agree with both Don Wilhelm's response and with Phil
Kane's comments as well. I tend to think it isn't too much wrong to try
simple speaker line filters, which often do solve an issue, but as Phil
points out, today's electronics are much different than what we had in the
past, and it is easy to do exactly the wrong thing! For example, I think
the old "stand by" trick of using bypass caps, which used to work very often
in old stuff, isn't a good idea with today's equipment. Apparently
transistorized equipment, like audio amps, won't necessarily be happy with
such a "fix" the way older tube type gear would. I wouldn't try that!

In any event, I don't want to even attempt to go inside someone else's
equipment. I DO want to appear genuinely concerned and intent on trying to
resolve the issue!

Often the problem, is convincing the "affected party" that it really is a
defect in their equipment, or installation thereof, and not yours. Of
course, you need to be pretty darned sure that is the case! That was my
situation from the outset. All my neighbor wanted to focus on was how much
money he had spent on his "system", equating money spent to a lessened
responsibility. It's very esoteric for most people when you start talking
about bad ground connections on their end, and anomalies like speaker wire
runs acting as rectifiers of RF. They don't think they have done anything
wrong, and they are almost right, except for the laws of physics. In any
event, they tend to view it as an infringement on their rights, and don't
feel any concern that we also have the right to operate a properly
functioning station.

I very much appreciate the responses on this issue. Apparently internet
issues are not that rare, but I was assuming (wrongly I guess) that the vast
disparity between my operating frequency and that used by internet devices
would make this less probable. You learn something everyday! When you
think about it, though, unwanted RF comes from all sorts of
devices--florescent lights, dimmer switches, etc. So there doesn't always
seem to be a harmonic relationship.

Hopefully I will find a good answer to all of this.

Dave W7AQK

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Richard Fjeld

Re: OT--RFI Issue

"Often the problem, is convincing the "affected party" that it really is a
defect in their equipment, or installation thereof, and not yours. Of
course, you need to be pretty darned sure that is the case! "

The FCC used to send out a packet of information to people who complained explaining in part, that it was probably their equipment that was inadequate. I don't know if this is still being done. Perhaps you could get one. It sort of breaks the ice.

Rich, n0ce
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David Cutter

Re: OT--RFI Issue

I have explained it this way:

You've had a long, hot summer and it hasn't rained for months. Suddenly it
rains and it pours in through the roof that you hadn't noticed had lost a
couple of slates. Do you blame the weather or the builder of the house?
Similarly, your neighbour can say that he never had interference before, but
then, he wasn't aware he had a problem till someone fired up a radio
transmitter next door.

The rarity of interference from a radio amateur to/from a neighbour is why
plasma TVs, switchmode supplies, hi fi systems, video recorders et al have
such poor emc performance - it's a cost that is statistically unnecessary to
the masses.

David
G3UNA

Jay Kobelin

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by Richard Fjeld

I had a real issue in the late 70's. We lived in the fringe area of
terrestrial TV (> 50 miles) so signal strength was "iffy" from the start for
the lower channels (CH2 and CH4).

I was creaming a neighbors TV. I looked at her TV antenna and saw 2 300 ohm
leads tied to it. So I explained to her in simple pictures how the 2 wires
were "really killing things". I then explained that maybe going to one feed
(and explained in pictures about RG59 and a couple of transformers could
help...back then many TVs were just 300 ohms). I changed it over for her and
it did get better but still had quite an issue with channel 2.

So I ran 150 feet of RG59 from my cable TV splitter and hooked it up to
their TV. Swung the antenna directly at their hours, full amp output and
VOILA no more TVI. So I asked her "To ease the situation, I'll pay your
$7/month basic cable fee and you just have it installed". She didn't go for
that because "I hear cable keeps going out" (and that was quite true back
then).

Her genius boyfriend then suggested I install a 40 foot high, 200 foot long
copper screen between our properties..boy genius eh? Sterba [sturba?]
curtain in his mind?

So with that data I sent the FCC a letter and they replied with that I had
done was more than is expected of us hams. If my neighbor didn't want to
cooperate, basically, they said too bad for them. They stated stay on the
air...if they have an issue let them contact the FCC directly. Well that
week I did get on and did mess up her CH2 and she called. My XYL answered
the phone and told her we offered you the solution but you refused. Not sure
what happened after that as no more calls came to us and they were still
fine neighbors...go figure.

40 plus years later, undeground power and telephone lines, satellite TV and
only one issue about 15 years ago with someone with a 49mhz wireless phone.
They called the cops on me. I asked the cop on the phone for her badge
number and told her the next time that she calls my home she will have
another issue as I explained her that she was completely out of her
jurisdiction. I told the cop have the complainer come on over and I'll get
her a more advanced phone for my peace of mind. The neighbor, who was on
another line listening, refused the offer. I said "Well not much more I can
do" and the cop said "I have it in tape" and I
said "Yeah, so what...would you like the address for the FCC so you can send
it to them?" Never a word since.......from the cop or the neighbor.

Heard of one instance I think in the 80's due to rectification from a rusty
rain gutter...it was supposedly a true story but no Google or Snopes.com
around to find out. Hard to believe but never got the method used in finding
the rust ..probably observing harmonics but no details on exactly how it was
discovered "way back then".

What I have found if one knows their rights in this hobby, outside
"annoying" parties can be corrected but it should be done in a non hostile
manner. The planning "engineer" for the town asked me, on my tower
application permit to paint the tower blue. I said nicely "Why?" He said "To
match the sky" ..I said jokingly "When was the last time you saw a blue sky
in this area of California?"..followed by a less jokingly approach with
"Will you accept the liability if the paint degrades the tower, since its
not built that way and could affect its performance, and it comes down and
kills someone?"

He then X'd that off his dopey list. I got my permit 6 weeks later...that
was in 1996 and it hangs in the garage today for all to see!

Jay

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Fjeld" <[hidden email]>
To: "Dyarnes" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT--RFI Issue

> "Often the problem, is convincing the "affected party" that it really is a
> defect in their equipment, or installation thereof, and not yours. Of
> course, you need to be pretty darned sure that is the case! "
>
> The FCC used to send out a packet of information to people who complained
> explaining in part, that it was probably their equipment that was
> inadequate. I don't know if this is still being done. Perhaps you could
> get one. It sort of breaks the ice.
>
> Rich, n0ce
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Vic Rosenthal

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by David Cutter

My favorite RFI complaint was the lady across the street who said I was making it
impossible to use her portable phone. "Look, it doesn't work RIGHT NOW," she said. When I
pointed out that I couldn't be on the air since I was talking to her, she explained that
"that thing on your roof is sucking up all the signals!"

On 3/20/2013 11:33 AM, David Cutter wrote:

> I have explained it this way:
>
> You've had a long, hot summer and it hasn't rained for months. Suddenly it rains and it
> pours in through the roof that you hadn't noticed had lost a couple of slates. Do you
> blame the weather or the builder of the house? Similarly, your neighbour can say that he
> never had interference before, but then, he wasn't aware he had a problem till someone
> fired up a radio transmitter next door.
>
> The rarity of interference from a radio amateur to/from a neighbour is why plasma TVs,
> switchmode supplies, hi fi systems, video recorders et al have such poor emc performance
> - it's a cost that is statistically unnecessary to the masses.
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
>
>> "Often the problem, is convincing the "affected party" that it really is a
>> defect in their equipment, or installation thereof, and not yours. Of
>> course, you need to be pretty darned sure that is the case! "
>>
>> The FCC used to send out a packet of information to people who complained explaining in
>> part, that it was probably their equipment that was inadequate. I don't know if this
>> is still being done. Perhaps you could get one. It sort of breaks the ice.
>>
>> Rich, n0ce
>

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

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Phil Kane-2

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by Richard Fjeld

On 3/20/2013 11:01 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote:

> The FCC used to send out a packet of information to people who
> complained explaining in part, that it was probably their equipment
> that was inadequate. I don't know if this is still being done.
> Perhaps you could get one. It sort of breaks the ice.

It's called the "TV Interference Handbook" - call the FCC "Call Center"
(or whatever it's called nowadays) at 1-888-CALL-FCC (225-5322) to see
if it is still in print.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Jay Kobelin

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

LOL

I have heard that for 5 decades ....

Jay

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT--RFI Issue

> My favorite RFI complaint was the lady across the street who said I was
> making it impossible to use her portable phone. "Look, it doesn't work
> RIGHT NOW," she said. When I pointed out that I couldn't be on the air
> since I was talking to her, she explained that "that thing on your roof is
> sucking up all the signals!"
>
> On 3/20/2013 11:33 AM, David Cutter wrote:
>> I have explained it this way:
>>
>> You've had a long, hot summer and it hasn't rained for months. Suddenly
>> it rains and it pours in through the roof that you hadn't noticed had
>> lost a couple of slates. Do you blame the weather or the builder of the
>> house? Similarly, your neighbour can say that he never had interference
>> before, but then, he wasn't aware he had a problem till someone fired up
>> a radio transmitter next door.
>>
>> The rarity of interference from a radio amateur to/from a neighbour is
>> why plasma TVs, switchmode supplies, hi fi systems, video recorders et al
>> have such poor emc performance - it's a cost that is statistically
>> unnecessary to the masses.
>>
>> David
>> G3UNA
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Often the problem, is convincing the "affected party" that it really is
>>> a
>>> defect in their equipment, or installation thereof, and not yours. Of
>>> course, you need to be pretty darned sure that is the case! "
>>>
>>> The FCC used to send out a packet of information to people who
>>> complained explaining in part, that it was probably their equipment that
>>> was inadequate. I don't know if this is still being done. Perhaps you
>>> could get one. It sort of breaks the ice.
>>>
>>> Rich, n0ce
>>
>
> --
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

N7US

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

http://transition.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/Mass_Media/Databases/documents_collect
ion/1993InterferenceHandbook.pdf

73, Jim N7US

-----Original Message-----

On 3/20/2013 11:01 AM, Richard Fjeld wrote:

> The FCC used to send out a packet of information to people who
> complained explaining in part, that it was probably their equipment
> that was inadequate. I don't know if this is still being done.
> Perhaps you could get one. It sort of breaks the ice.

It's called the "TV Interference Handbook" - call the FCC "Call Center"
(or whatever it's called nowadays) at 1-888-CALL-FCC (225-5322) to see
if it is still in print.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

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daleputnam

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by Jay Kobelin

I had a neighbor that called the local FCC to complain, and was so forceful that the FCC came out to visit and inspect. I tried (successfully, until they left) to suppress the grin, as we inspected the ham shack to be.... I'd erected the tower with triband beam and ran the coax into the ham shack, and left it dangle... because the radios were yet to be unpacked.I didn't even have the radios in the house yet. They were still in storage. The FCC went next door, visited with her, ... came back.. shook my hand, expressed their sympathy for me, having to live next to her, and warned me NOT to go adjust any.. not any thing in her house, for any reason. I later found she had had a 21mc if tv... by seeing it in the trash, a few months later. (NO, I wanted to go get it, but didn't dare push my luck)

Have a great day,

--... ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy

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Jim Brown-10

Re: OT--RFI Issue

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

> Your position should be to offer to assist a qualified technician in
> >isolating and correcting any deficiencies by providing periods of
> >operating to test the results of any repairs.

I'd say it depends entirely on the attitude of the RFI victiim, and the
ham's relationship with that party. The vast majority of RFI complaints
today are the result of Pin One Problems in the victim equipment. These
are a manufacturing defect that is the result of poor design, and any
wiring connected to the equipment will act as a receiving antenna for
our signals, where they will be rectified and amplified.

In today's world, "qualified technician" for consumer electronics is an
oxymoron.

Several years ago, I helped ND2T diagnose and cure strong RFI to his
next door neighbor's "exotic high futility" system, in a living room
only 20 ft from Tom's antennas, which were driven by a big ACOM legal
limit amp. Tom introduced me as an audio expert and RFI expert (which I
am) then returned to his shack and transmitted on all the bands. I stuck
chokes on cables until the RFI went away, and by the time Tom arrived
after our work was done, had the guy ready to open his wallet to buy
them at my cost. Tom, however, insisted on paying for the cores
himself. Problem solved.

It is NEVER a good idea to modify the equipment, but it IS good to
disable the antennas (that wiring) by adding ferrite chokes tuned to the
transmitter frequency(ies). Tuning is accomplished simply by using the
"right" ferrite mix and adjusting the number of turns through the core.

Speaker cables are a very common antenna. Another excellent move is to
replace parallel wire loudspeaker cables (zip cord, no matter how
exotic) by twisted pair. #12 copper makes excellent speaker cable
(there's a classic AES Paper by Prof. R. A Greiner, Dept of EE at U Wis
about this), and twisting strongly rejects RF coupling. I have solved
MANY cases of RFI by doing this.

RFI causes and solutions are covered in considerable detail in

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

73, Jim K9YC

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ab2tc

Re: OT--RFI Issue

Hi,

Please indicate a source of twisted pair wire suitable for speaker feeds. #16 or #14 is fine for me. I am still having trouble keeping my 15m signals out of my family room system. Currently that room's speaker wire is of the parallel kind.

AB2TC - Knut

Jim Brown-10 wrote

> Your position should be to offer to assist a qualified technician in
> >isolating and correcting any deficiencies by providing periods of
> >operating to test the results of any repairs.

I'd say it depends entirely on the attitude of the RFI victiim, and the
ham's relationship with that party. The vast majority of RFI complaints
today are the result of Pin One Problems in the victim equipment. These
are a manufacturing defect that is the result of poor design, and any
wiring connected to the equipment will act as a receiving antenna for
our signals, where they will be rectified and amplified.

In today's world, "qualified technician" for consumer electronics is an
oxymoron.

Several years ago, I helped ND2T diagnose and cure strong RFI to his
next door neighbor's "exotic high futility" system, in a living room
only 20 ft from Tom's antennas, which were driven by a big ACOM legal
limit amp. Tom introduced me as an audio expert and RFI expert (which I
am) then returned to his shack and transmitted on all the bands. I stuck
chokes on cables until the RFI went away, and by the time Tom arrived
after our work was done, had the guy ready to open his wallet to buy
them at my cost. Tom, however, insisted on paying for the cores
himself. Problem solved.

It is NEVER a good idea to modify the equipment, but it IS good to
disable the antennas (that wiring) by adding ferrite chokes tuned to the
transmitter frequency(ies). Tuning is accomplished simply by using the
"right" ferrite mix and adjusting the number of turns through the core.

Speaker cables are a very common antenna. Another excellent move is to
replace parallel wire loudspeaker cables (zip cord, no matter how
exotic) by twisted pair. #12 copper makes excellent speaker cable
(there's a classic AES Paper by Prof. R. A Greiner, Dept of EE at U Wis
about this), and twisting strongly rejects RF coupling. I have solved
MANY cases of RFI by doing this.

RFI causes and solutions are covered in considerable detail in

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf

73, Jim K9YC
<snip>

Jim Brown-10

Re: OT--RFI Issue

On 3/20/2013 4:19 PM, ab2tc wrote:
> Please indicate a source of twisted pair wire suitable for speaker feeds.
> #16 or #14 is fine for me. I am still having trouble keeping my 15m signals
> out of my family room system. Currently that room's speaker wire is of the
> parallel kind.

It's commonly used by sound system professionals, including sound
contractors who install permanent systems. Belden and West Penn both
make stranded twisted pair in the range of #10 to #26. Excessive wire
resistance degrades bass transient response (makes it "flabby), so if
you (or your neighbor) is picky, big copper is the weapon of choice.
Contrary to the high futility mystique pumped out by guys selling snake
oil, nothing is better than P.O.C. (plain, ordinary copper).

73, Jim K9YC
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