OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines

[Don Rasmussen]

I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet front loading washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher power supply trashes entire HF at S9 +10, I have to use an MFJ-1026 to remedy this. Whirlpool Duet and Maytag Neptune are notoroius for this with no known sure fire remedies at the device.

Happily? The wife is NOT happy with the washer, seems it acts more like a dishwasher with respect to cleaning power, that it to say VERY light duty.

A tiny amount of water tossed about some dirty socks, well you get the idea.  

I need suggestions on large capacity top loaders that habe a clean bill of health in an HF environment.

Please email your suggestion to wb8yqj at yahoo dot com so I might "clean up" my act before the bands open for the Fall.

TIA,
Don
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[Steve Ellington]

Don
Read down through this thread. You might want to contact this guy.
http://lists.contesting.com/_rfi/2005-02/msg00041.html

Steve
N4LQ
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Rasmussen" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 10:23 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines

> I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet front loading
> washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher power supply trashes entire
> HF at S9 +10, I have to use an MFJ-1026 to remedy this. Whirlpool Duet and
> Maytag Neptune are notoroius for this with no known sure fire remedies at
> the device.
>
> Happily? The wife is NOT happy with the washer, seems it acts more like a
> dishwasher with respect to cleaning power, that it to say VERY light duty.
>
> A tiny amount of water tossed about some dirty socks, well you get the
> idea.
>
> I need suggestions on large capacity top loaders that habe a clean bill of
> health in an HF environment.
>
> Please email your suggestion to wb8yqj at yahoo dot com so I might "clean
> up" my act before the bands open for the Fall.
>
> TIA,
> Don
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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[Jim Brown-10]

On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:23:45 -0700 (PDT), Don Rasmussen wrote:

>I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet front
>loading washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher power supply
>trashes entire HF at S9 +10,

Your post is timely. As it happens, there are two recent threads
(begun on Friday or Saturday) on the RFI reflector on this topic. I
suggest that you head over to contesting.com and read them. It IS
off topic here, so I won't say more. :)

73,

Jim K9YC





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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:23:45 -0700 (PDT), Don Rasmussen wrote:
>
>>I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet front
>>loading washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher power supply
>>trashes entire HF at S9 +10,
>
> Your post is timely. As it happens, there are two recent threads
> (begun on Friday or Saturday) on the RFI reflector on this topic. I
> suggest that you head over to contesting.com and read them. It IS
> off topic here, so I won't say more. :)
>
> 73,
>
> Jim K9YC

I posted an eHam article about this a couple of years ago.  (In fact, if
you do "duet rfi" on Google you'll find me pretty quickly.)  I get about
two messages a month from hams who have the Whirlpool Duet series and have
terrible RFI problems.  Universally, when I advise they call Whirlpool and
complain, they report back that they were told that they were the first
person ever to report the problem.

On eHam, someone responded with his own article and I took the suggested
steps: AC line filter, better ground, some ferrites and wire re-routing
inside the washer.  Plus I partially remodeled my house, put in a new
ground system, and put in a tower and yagi. The noise went from S9+60 to
S3.  An improvement only by comparison.

Along the way I spoke with engineers at Whirlpool, received a whole
complete set of new innards from them, and did a lot of other research.
Despite their willingness to talk to me on the phone and send me parts
(which didn't help) I think th best solution is to buy something else.

It will be be interesting to see if the RFI list has a new, full solution.

Leigh/WA5ZNU

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[David Cutter]

Leigh

>From your research, would you conclude that the machine did not comply  with
emc regulations?

This sort of problem is, as we all know, common with many imported
computers, shipped with filters designed in but obviously missing.

Is this a sign that industry in general is prepared to save a few $ per
machine and have very few complaints from their customers?  After all, as a
proportion of the population, how many would notice?

David
G3UNA

> I posted an eHam article about this a couple of years ago.  (In fact, if
> you do "duet rfi" on Google you'll find me pretty quickly.)  I get about
> two messages a month from hams who have the Whirlpool Duet series and have
> terrible RFI problems.  Universally, when I advise they call Whirlpool and
> complain, they report back that they were told that they were the first
> person ever to report the problem.
>
> On eHam, someone responded with his own article and I took the suggested
> steps: AC line filter, better ground, some ferrites and wire re-routing
> inside the washer.  Plus I partially remodeled my house, put in a new
> ground system, and put in a tower and yagi. The noise went from S9+60 to
> S3.  An improvement only by comparison.
>
> Along the way I spoke with engineers at Whirlpool, received a whole
> complete set of new innards from them, and did a lot of other research.
> Despite their willingness to talk to me on the phone and send me parts
> (which didn't help) I think th best solution is to buy something else.
> >
> Leigh/WA5ZNU
>

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[Jim Brown-10]

On Tue, 8 Sep 2009 07:16:18 +0100, David Cutter wrote:

>From your research, would you conclude that the machine did not
>comply  with emc regulations?

NO! FCC Rules give noise makers built into appliances and lighting
equipment a complete exemption from EMC rules.  

Again, this is a topic for the RFI reflector. ALL of this has been
discussed there, in great detail, including by folks who work in the
EMC world. Like all the contesting.com reflectors, you can search
threads and read them from the contesting.com website. And you can
join if you like.

73,

Jim Brown K9YC


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Ok....

There is something to be said about keeping with older technology.  Why does a washer and dryer need to have a microprocessor?  Timers have done the job for many years.  

Lee - K0WA


 In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common Sense divine?




________________________________
From: Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 9:23:45 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines

I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet front loading washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher power supply trashes entire HF at S9 +10, I have to use an MFJ-1026 to remedy this. Whirlpool Duet and Maytag Neptune are notoroius for this with no known sure fire remedies at the device.

Happily? The wife is NOT happy with the washer, seems it acts more like a dishwasher with respect to cleaning power, that it to say VERY light duty.

A tiny amount of water tossed about some dirty socks, well you get the idea.  

I need suggestions on large capacity top loaders that habe a clean bill of health in an HF environment.

Please email your suggestion to wb8yqj at yahoo dot com so I might "clean up" my act before the bands open for the Fall.

TIA,
Don
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[Dick Dievendorff]

Perhaps because microcontroller-based control circuits might be less
expensive to manufacture than the mechanical devices they replace, offer
flexibility for "features" that are deal-makers in a competitive
marketplace, have shorter lead time for changes, are less subject to
mechanical failure (wear) than the timers they replace, and might result in
higher reliability of that portion of the product?  These are generally the
reasons...

Dick, K6KR


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lee Buller
Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:06 AM
To: Don Rasmussen; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines

Ok....

There is something to be said about keeping with older technology.  Why does
a washer and dryer need to have a microprocessor?  Timers have done the job
for many years.  

Lee - K0WA


 In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you
don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you
can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common
Sense.  Is Common Sense divine?




________________________________
From: Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 9:23:45 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines

I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet front loading
washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher power supply trashes entire
HF at S9 +10, I have to use an MFJ-1026 to remedy this. Whirlpool Duet and
Maytag Neptune are notoroius for this with no known sure fire remedies at
the device.

Happily? The wife is NOT happy with the washer, seems it acts more like a
dishwasher with respect to cleaning power, that it to say VERY light duty.

A tiny amount of water tossed about some dirty socks, well you get the idea.


I need suggestions on large capacity top loaders that habe a clean bill of
health in an HF environment.

Please email your suggestion to wb8yqj at yahoo dot com so I might "clean
up" my act before the bands open for the Fall.

TIA,
Don
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[Bob-270]

Advantage to them not I or us here.

Reliability is questionable...  After a spike induced by lightning a
$479 dishwasher needs
a $350 PCB replacement rather than a much cheaper mechanical timer.  And
there doesn't
seem to be any option on board parts, just replace the PCB.

Were I to have one of the GE Duets mentioned here I think I would unplug
it when I wanted
to play Radio.  But I agree  that the point is valid I should not have
to do that.   I can only
hope a neighbor doesn't get one...  Or have they?, is that the new high
noise level on  160/80.

73,
Bob
K2TK

Dick Dievendorff wrote:

> Perhaps because microcontroller-based control circuits might be less
> expensive to manufacture than the mechanical devices they replace, offer
> flexibility for "features" that are deal-makers in a competitive
> marketplace, have shorter lead time for changes, are less subject to
> mechanical failure (wear) than the timers they replace, and might result in
> higher reliability of that portion of the product?  These are generally the
> reasons...
>
> Dick, K6KR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lee Buller
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:06 AM
> To: Don Rasmussen; Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines
>
> Ok....
>
> There is something to be said about keeping with older technology.  Why does
> a washer and dryer need to have a microprocessor?  Timers have done the job
> for many years.  
>
> Lee - K0WA
>
>
>  In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you
> don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you
> can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common
> Sense.  Is Common Sense divine?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 9:23:45 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines
>
> I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet front loading
> washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher power supply trashes entire
> HF at S9 +10, I have to use an MFJ-1026 to remedy this. Whirlpool Duet and
> Maytag Neptune are notoroius for this with no known sure fire remedies at
> the device.
>
> Happily? The wife is NOT happy with the washer, seems it acts more like a
> dishwasher with respect to cleaning power, that it to say VERY light duty.
>
> A tiny amount of water tossed about some dirty socks, well you get the idea.
>
>
> I need suggestions on large capacity top loaders that habe a clean bill of
> health in an HF environment.
>
> Please email your suggestion to wb8yqj at yahoo dot com so I might "clean
> up" my act before the bands open for the Fall.
>
> TIA,
> Don
>
>  

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> and might result in higher reliability of that portion of the product?

Not hardly ... last time I visited my mother, I repaired
a pump seal in her 40 year old Westinghouse front loading
washer.  The mechanical timer is still running perfectly
after all these years ... and doing as many as 8 - 10
loads a week while we were growing up.  

Those mechanical timer designs came from the commercial
(coin operated) world where they did hundreds of loads
(cycles) a week with nary a failure ... I maintained many
of those machines while working for my dad in high school
and college.

The only advantage of the microprocessors are quick time
to market and the ability to implement water/energy saving
cycles demanded by the enviro-nuts at the cost of EMI
pollution.

The microprocessor controls certainly do not survive in
a surge/spike/lightning rich environment nearly as well
as the properly designed/sized mechanical timers.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dick
> Dievendorff
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:46 PM
> To: 'Lee Buller'; 'Don Rasmussen'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines
>
>
> Perhaps because microcontroller-based control circuits might
> be less expensive to manufacture than the mechanical devices
> they replace, offer flexibility for "features" that are
> deal-makers in a competitive marketplace, have shorter lead
> time for changes, are less subject to mechanical failure
> (wear) than the timers they replace, and might result in
> higher reliability of that portion of the product?  These are
> generally the reasons...
>
> Dick, K6KR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lee Buller
> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:06 AM
> To: Don Rasmussen; Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines
>
> Ok....
>
> There is something to be said about keeping with older
> technology.  Why does a washer and dryer need to have a
> microprocessor?  Timers have done the job for many years.  
>
> Lee - K0WA
>
>
>  In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short
> supply.  If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common
> Sense and use it.  If you can't find any Common Sense, ask
> for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common
> Sense divine?
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 9:23:45 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines
>
> I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet
> front loading washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher
> power supply trashes entire HF at S9 +10, I have to use an
> MFJ-1026 to remedy this. Whirlpool Duet and Maytag Neptune
> are notoroius for this with no known sure fire remedies at the device.
>
> Happily? The wife is NOT happy with the washer, seems it acts
> more like a dishwasher with respect to cleaning power, that
> it to say VERY light duty.
>
> A tiny amount of water tossed about some dirty socks, well
> you get the idea.
>
>
> I need suggestions on large capacity top loaders that habe a
> clean bill of health in an HF environment.
>
> Please email your suggestion to wb8yqj at yahoo dot com so I
> might "clean up" my act before the bands open for the Fall.
>
> TIA,
> Don
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html 
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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>
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[Grant Youngman]

>
> The only advantage of the microprocessors are quick time
> to market and the ability to implement water/energy saving
> cycles demanded by the enviro-nuts at the cost of EMI
> pollution.

Excuse me?

Front loading machines use far less water and detergent (both  
beneficial) and generally result in more effective cleaning than your  
mechanically timed top-loader.

My own household machine produces no detectible EMI.  But then I don't  
have my Elecraft (just to keep something even remotely if just barely  
related to the Elecraft list) radios in the laundry room either.

Grant/NQ5T
Certified "enviro-nut"


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[Dick Dievendorff]

Yours is anecdotal evidence based on small sample dizes. The  
manufacturers have the data for large numbers.

Dick,K6KR

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 8, 2009, at 1:08 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> and might result in higher reliability of that portion of the  
>> product?
>
> Not hardly ... last time I visited my mother, I repaired
> a pump seal in her 40 year old Westinghouse front loading
> washer.  The mechanical timer is still running perfectly
> after all these years ... and doing as many as 8 - 10
> loads a week while we were growing up.
>
> Those mechanical timer designs came from the commercial
> (coin operated) world where they did hundreds of loads
> (cycles) a week with nary a failure ... I maintained many
> of those machines while working for my dad in high school
> and college.
>
> The only advantage of the microprocessors are quick time
> to market and the ability to implement water/energy saving
> cycles demanded by the enviro-nuts at the cost of EMI
> pollution.
>
> The microprocessor controls certainly do not survive in
> a surge/spike/lightning rich environment nearly as well
> as the properly designed/sized mechanical timers.
>
> 73,
>
>   ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dick
>> Dievendorff
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:46 PM
>> To: 'Lee Buller'; 'Don Rasmussen'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines
>>
>>
>> Perhaps because microcontroller-based control circuits might
>> be less expensive to manufacture than the mechanical devices
>> they replace, offer flexibility for "features" that are
>> deal-makers in a competitive marketplace, have shorter lead
>> time for changes, are less subject to mechanical failure
>> (wear) than the timers they replace, and might result in
>> higher reliability of that portion of the product?  These are
>> generally the reasons...
>>
>> Dick, K6KR
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lee Buller
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 6:06 AM
>> To: Don Rasmussen; Elecraft Reflector
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines
>>
>> Ok....
>>
>> There is something to be said about keeping with older
>> technology.  Why does a washer and dryer need to have a
>> microprocessor?  Timers have done the job for many years.
>>
>> Lee - K0WA
>>
>>
>> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short
>> supply.  If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common
>> Sense and use it.  If you can't find any Common Sense, ask
>> for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common
>> Sense divine?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Don Rasmussen <[hidden email]>
>> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 9:23:45 PM
>> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: RFI from Front Loading Washing Machines
>>
>> I've been stuck for a couple years now with a Whirlpool Duet
>> front loading washing machine. The internal MCU and switcher
>> power supply trashes entire HF at S9 +10, I have to use an
>> MFJ-1026 to remedy this. Whirlpool Duet and Maytag Neptune
>> are notoroius for this with no known sure fire remedies at the  
>> device.
>>
>> Happily? The wife is NOT happy with the washer, seems it acts
>> more like a dishwasher with respect to cleaning power, that
>> it to say VERY light duty.
>>
>> A tiny amount of water tossed about some dirty socks, well
>> you get the idea.
>>
>>
>> I need suggestions on large capacity top loaders that habe a
>> clean bill of health in an HF environment.
>>
>> Please email your suggestion to wb8yqj at yahoo dot com so I
>> might "clean up" my act before the bands open for the Fall.
>>
>> TIA,
>> Don
>> ______________________________________________________________
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[David Gilbert]

I worked in the discrete semi industry (engineer and then business
manager) for thirty years, dealing with most of the major appliance
companies in Asia, Europe, and the U.S.  By their own statements, the
mechanical timer was far and away the most failure prone component in
any washing machine.  The appliance industry in general resisted solid
state controls for a long time due to inertia and tooling investments,
but the first area where they came to us actively seeking help was to
replace that damn mechanical timer.  They were just fed up with the
customer complaints and the high costs of in-warranty service calls.

Aside from people like hams who have all sorts of tall metal outside
connected one way or another to their electrical ground system, what
percentage of people do you think have their washing machines zapped by
nearby lightning strikes?  I can pretty much guarantee that it is a
much, much smaller number than the percentage of mechanical timers that
failed in the old washing machines.

Dave   AB7E



Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> and might result in higher reliability of that portion of the product?
>>    
>
> Not hardly ... last time I visited my mother, I repaired
> a pump seal in her 40 year old Westinghouse front loading
> washer.  The mechanical timer is still running perfectly
> after all these years ... and doing as many as 8 - 10
> loads a week while we were growing up.  
>
> Those mechanical timer designs came from the commercial
> (coin operated) world where they did hundreds of loads
> (cycles) a week with nary a failure ... I maintained many
> of those machines while working for my dad in high school
> and college.
>
> The only advantage of the microprocessors are quick time
> to market and the ability to implement water/energy saving
> cycles demanded by the enviro-nuts at the cost of EMI
> pollution.
>
> The microprocessor controls certainly do not survive in
> a surge/spike/lightning rich environment nearly as well
> as the properly designed/sized mechanical timers.
>
> 73,
>
>    ... Joe, W4TV
>  
>
>
>  

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[Richard Ferch]

K6KR wrote:

> Yours is anecdotal evidence based on small sample dizes. The  
> manufacturers have the data for large numbers.

Frankly, I doubt whether sample size has anything to do with it. It's
much more likely to be the ability to meet current marketplace demands
cheaply (these include consumer preferences for "gee whiz" features, as
well as energy efficiency criteria).

Manufacturers and consumers measure reliability in different ways. To
the consumer, unreliability is measured by failure to function as
desired. To the manufacturer, unreliability is measured by warranty and
repair calls, or perhaps if the issue becomes widely enough known to
affect consumer confidence in the product, by negative impact on sales.
These consumer and manufacturer measures can be very different.

If the typical consumer response to a failure is to go out and buy
another unit from the same manufacturer, perhaps even a more expensive
model, then unreliability, at least with respect to that particular
failure mode, is actually good for the manufacturer's balance sheet.

73,
Rich VE3KI
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[David Gilbert]

That might be the case with some generic products, but not for most
consumer electronics and certainly not for major appliances.  Even when
your TV or DVD player fails most people avoid that manufacturer like the
plague (at least for the next few product cycles), if not out of fear of
a repeat, then simply to get even.  How many people do you think would
buy a second K3 if their first one simply failed due to a manufacturing
flaw that wasn't adequately addressed by Elecraft?

I know of no manufacturer ... not a single one ... who considers product
unreliability to be good for the balance sheet.  History has proven time
and time again quite the contrary.

Dave   AB7E



Richard Ferch wrote:
> If the typical consumer response to a failure is to go out and buy
> another unit from the same manufacturer, perhaps even a more expensive
> model, then unreliability, at least with respect to that particular
> failure mode, is actually good for the manufacturer's balance sheet.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
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[drewko]

More anecdotal evidence... I just replaced a gas valve solenoid coil
in my dryer-- the first repair it's needed in 30 years. The matching
washer hasn't had any problems yet.

Nice dryer... it just dries the clothes. It doesn't have to worry
about the kinds of things a microprocessor based clothes dryer
probably does: multitasking, wifi-connectivity, social networking,
remote control and monitoring by White House Environmental Office,
etc. etc.

73,
Drew
AF2Z


On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 06:06:20 -0700 (PDT), Lee - K0WA wrote:

>Ok....
>
>There is something to be said about keeping with older technology.  Why does a washer and dryer need to have a microprocessor?  Timers have done the job for many years.  
>
>Lee - K0WA
>
>
> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common Sense divine?
>
>

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