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OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

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Randy Cook-2

OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

I would appreciate any help from the group on my unusual antenna situation. Not really Elecraft related, so OK to respond off line.

Recently, we had to gut our back yard, as several Redwood trees were undermining a retaining wall. Bad situation. So, the trees had to go, and with them my antenna supports! I now have essentially a 50ft by 30ft yard with 6ft fences on the three sides, house and porch on the fourth. Some hardscape prevents long radials. For aesthetic reasons, I don't have a tower or tall supports. My first shot was a fiberglass pole, at about 34ft, with a wire up the middle. Terminates in the base to an MFJ antenna autotuner. I placed the pole a few feet from the corner of the lot where, when painted, blends into a neighbors tree behind, and is an barely visible from the street.

My limitations are the radial field. I did some research, and started with 8 wires, varying from 15' to 35' in a 100 degree spread on the flower beds and small lawn. Another ham suggested elevated radials as an alternative, so I tried two 35' radials at 90 deg angles along two fence sides, about 4' off the ground. Much of what I read was from hams with big lots and dozens of radial in all directions. Couldn't find much on my situation.

Conditions have not been that good, and other commitments have prevented much testing. I have some time now and want to find the best solution. Questions for the group--

Give the limits on the radial field (90-110 degrees, limited length) is 10 buried better than 2 elevated?

Does it make sense to use BOTH elevated and buried?

Some prelim testing, using some SE Asia DX stations, showed little difference in the receive signal strength switching in either or both radial plans. I plan on using some on air events this week to gather signal strength reports on my transmissions.

Any thoughts?

73

Randy Cook - K6CRC
K3 #2051
[hidden email]

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Jim Bennett

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

Randy,

Also a CA ham, but a bit to the east of you, up here in Folsom. We've got several redwoods and they serve me well for an 88 foot doublet at 45 feet, and two Inverted L's - one for 80 and one for 160. However, I use the K3's diversity receive a LOT and for my other antenna, I have a ground mounted Hustler 5BTV. Our back yard is kinda sucky for antennas - large concrete patio and a fairly large pool. The grassy area is about 40 x 20. The XYL (also a ham - KF6ZNT) "allowed" me to mount the vertical in the grass area. Not in the middle, as we've got two kids, but not too far from it. I installed a DX-engineering vertical radial plate and tilt-over vertical assembly for the 5BTV. Since I'm pretty limited radial-wise, I did the best I could: I ran 40 of them from that radial plate across the entire yard. Not all are straight. Some are 25-30 feet long, some are only 6 feet long. All were put into the grass and held down with metal "clips" - u-shaped things about five inches or so lo
ng. Within a year, the grass completely grew over the wires and I no longer see any of them.

For a few months, I used this vertical as my transmit AND receive antenna. Not as good as a yagi at 150 feet, but it works and I made plenty of QSO's!! So, you'll probably do fine with buried radials - the more, the merrier in your case.

As a side note - we'd started getting gophers digging through the back yard grass. Apparently they didn't take too kindly to all those steel clips being placed in the grass - after I put in the radials, the gophers moved out!

Jim / W6JHB

On Monday, Jul 1, 2013, at Monday, 9:30 AM, Randy Cook wrote:

> I would appreciate any help from the group on my unusual antenna situation. Not really Elecraft related, so OK to respond off line.
>
> Recently, we had to gut our back yard, as several Redwood trees were undermining a retaining wall. Bad situation. So, the trees had to go, and with them my antenna supports! I now have essentially a 50ft by 30ft yard with 6ft fences on the three sides, house and porch on the fourth. Some hardscape prevents long radials. For aesthetic reasons, I don't have a tower or tall supports. My first shot was a fiberglass pole, at about 34ft, with a wire up the middle. Terminates in the base to an MFJ antenna autotuner. I placed the pole a few feet from the corner of the lot where, when painted, blends into a neighbors tree behind, and is an barely visible from the street.
>
> My limitations are the radial field. I did some research, and started with 8 wires, varying from 15' to 35' in a 100 degree spread on the flower beds and small lawn. Another ham suggested elevated radials as an alternative, so I tried two 35' radials at 90 deg angles along two fence sides, about 4' off the ground. Much of what I read was from hams with big lots and dozens of radial in all directions. Couldn't find much on my situation.
>
> Conditions have not been that good, and other commitments have prevented much testing. I have some time now and want to find the best solution. Questions for the group--
>
> Give the limits on the radial field (90-110 degrees, limited length) is 10 buried better than 2 elevated?
>
> Does it make sense to use BOTH elevated and buried?
>
> Some prelim testing, using some SE Asia DX stations, showed little difference in the receive signal strength switching in either or both radial plans. I plan on using some on air events this week to gather signal strength reports on my transmissions.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> 73
>
> Randy Cook - K6CRC
> K3 #2051
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Mike WA8BXN

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

In reply to this post by Randy Cook-2

Randy,

I think elevated radials need to be tuned, that is a particular length for a
given band. If you will be operating multiple bands, a set is needed for
each band. Radials on or under ground do not need to be a particular length
to work (more and longer is probably always good).

What band(s) do you want to operate? If 20 meters, you might consider an end
fed half wave vertical that would not need much ground system.

73 - Mike WA8BXN

-------Original Message-------

From: Randy Cook
Date: 07/01/13 12:30:28
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

I would appreciate any help from the group on my unusual antenna situation.
Not really Elecraft related, so OK to respond off line.

Recently, we had to gut our back yard, as several Redwood trees were
undermining a retaining wall. Bad situation. So, the trees had to go, and
with them my antenna supports! I now have essentially a 50ft by 30ft yard
with 6ft fences on the three sides, house and porch on the fourth. Some
hardscape prevents long radials. For aesthetic reasons, I don't have a tower
or tall supports. My first shot was a fiberglass pole, at about 34ft, with a
wire up the middle. Terminates in the base to an MFJ antenna autotuner. I
placed the pole a few feet from the corner of the lot where, when painted,
blends into a neighbors tree behind, and is an barely visible from the
street.

My limitations are the radial field. I did some research, and started with 8
wires, varying from 15' to 35' in a 100 degree spread on the flower beds and
small lawn. Another ham suggested elevated radials as an alternative, so I
tried two 35' radials at 90 deg angles along two fence sides, about 4' off
the ground. Much of what I read was from hams with big lots and dozens of
radial in all directions. Couldn't find much on my situation.

Conditions have not been that good, and other commitments have prevented
much testing. I have some time now and want to find the best solution.
Questions for the group--

Give the limits on the radial field (90-110 degrees, limited length) is 10
buried better than 2 elevated?

Does it make sense to use BOTH elevated and buried?

Some prelim testing, using some SE Asia DX stations, showed little
difference in the receive signal strength switching in either or both radial
plans. I plan on using some on air events this week to gather signal
strength reports on my transmissions.

Any thoughts?

73

Randy Cook - K6CRC
K3 #2051
[hidden email]

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Matt Zilmer

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

In reply to this post by Randy Cook-2

Elevated radials are better than buried, but more radials are better
than a few or none. A good minimum number (for each band) would be 8.
Many studies on this have shown many more than 8 per band (like > 25)
is much better and, of course, much harder and expensive to field.

I have a 33' vertical made of heavywall aluminum that has 7 radials
for 40m and another 7 for 15m. It works well enough, but generally I
use it as an RX ANT for the K3's sub rx. In my own case, the radials
are buried for aesthetic reasons. Plus, I don't want to need to duck
down when mowing. There is no ATU at the base of this vertical.

When using this antenna for RMS Winmor (for Navy-Marine Corps MARS)
just below 40m, it had no trouble handling all states west of the
Mississippi with 150W drive.

I would say that you should do what you can to maximize the radial
count, even if it means changing your location plan.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 09:30:09 -0700, you wrote:

>I would appreciate any help from the group on my unusual antenna situation. Not really Elecraft related, so OK to respond off line.
>
>Recently, we had to gut our back yard, as several Redwood trees were undermining a retaining wall.
Bad situation. So, the trees had to go, and with them my antenna
supports! I now have essentially a 50ft by 30ft yard with 6ft fences
on the three sides, house and porch on the fourth. Some hardscape
prevents long radials. For aesthetic reasons, I don't have a tower or
tall supports. My first shot was a fiberglass pole, at about 34ft,
with a wire up the middle. Terminates in the base to an MFJ antenna
autotuner. I placed the pole a few feet from the corner of the lot
where, when painted, blends into a neighbors tree behind, and is an
barely visible from the street.
>
>My limitations are the radial field. I did some research, and started with 8 wires, varying from
15' to 35' in a 100 degree spread on the flower beds and small lawn.
Another ham suggested elevated radials as an alternative, so I tried
two 35' radials at 90 deg angles along two fence sides, about 4' off
the ground. Much of what I read was from hams with big lots and dozens
of radial in all directions. Couldn't find much on my situation.
>
>Conditions have not been that good, and other commitments have prevented much testing.
I have some time now and want to find the best solution. Questions
for the group--
>
>Give the limits on the radial field (90-110 degrees, limited length) is 10 buried better than 2 elevated?
>
>Does it make sense to use BOTH elevated and buried?
>
>Some prelim testing, using some SE Asia DX stations, showed little difference in the receive signal
strength switching in either or both radial plans. I plan on using
some on air events this week to gather signal strength reports on my
transmissions.

>
>Any thoughts?
>
>
>73
>
>Randy Cook - K6CRC
>K3 #2051
>[hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

John Oppenheimer

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

In reply to this post by Randy Cook-2

Hi Randy,

I have plotted several of the ground radial count versus loss studies.
http://www.kn5l.net/GroundRadialStudy/#figure2

A plot of minimum radial length versus number of radials is:
http://www.kn5l.net/GroundRadialStudy/#figure4

The above may help you with your antenna selection.

John KN5L
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Ignacy

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

In reply to this post by Mike WA8BXN

Mike WA8BXN wrote

I think elevated radials need to be tuned, that is a particular length for a
given band. If you will be operating multiple bands, a set is needed for
each band.

If elevated radials are not tuned and not quarter wave, the efficiency may be even higher than with quarter wave radials but the feed point is likely to be at a very high voltage. This requires either very high impedance chokes or transformers. No radial verticals are case in point.

There is a 160m vertical with innovative elevated radial (http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html). It is equivalent to two elevated radials and coil. There is an anecdotal information that this vertical works much better than a vertical with many short ground radials.

Ignacy, NO9E

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

Elevated radials need not be tuned (whatever matching network is used
should resolve the tuning, BUT if the radials are to be effective in
cancelling the horizontally polarized radiation, pairs must be arranged
180 degrees apart. Yes, they can bend, but will be most effective if
the bends are symetrical and opposite. Remember the "ground plane"
antenna that was quite popular some time ago - the 4 radials were
arranged at 90 degrees to each other. Yes, those were tuned to
resonance as was the monopole, and they were sloped downward to produce
closer to a 50 ohm match. Those were elevated radials.

With a proper matching network a vertical having the vertical element
and the radial with equal lengths will match in a similar manner to a
center fed dipole, If the radials and the vertical element are not the
same length, then the feed will be similar to an off-center-fed dipole.
(the radial pairs should be of the same length to cancel the horizontal
radiation).

Normally elevated radials are used with resonant vertical sections, and
in that case should be tuned for resonance one at a time with the
vertical section.

73,
Don W3FPR
.
On 7/1/2013 3:49 PM, Ignacy wrote:

> Mike WA8BXN wrote
>> I think elevated radials need to be tuned, that is a particular length for
>> a
>> given band. If you will be operating multiple bands, a set is needed for
>> each band.
> If elevated radials are not tuned and not quarter wave, the efficiency may
> be even higher than with quarter wave radials but the feed point is likely
> to be at a very high voltage. This requires either very high impedance
> chokes or transformers. No radial verticals are case in point.
>
> There is a 160m vertical with innovative elevated radial
> (http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html). It is equivalent to two elevated
> radials and coil. There is an anecdotal information that this vertical works
> much better than a vertical with many short ground radials.
>
> Ignacy, NO9E
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/OT-Radials-for-Vertical-Antenna-tp7576089p7576111.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Barry K3NDM

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

In reply to this post by Mike WA8BXN

Mike,
Tuned radials are really not needed in an elevated radial setup.
You just put an ATU at the base of the vertical section and run 2-4
radials from the ground of the ATU. The only issue is making sure the
antenna system is really high enough to be called raised. I would shoot
for elevations in excess of 1/10 wavelength, and preferably a bit more.
Impedance of the antenna is totally unimportant as the ATU takes care of
making sure your transmitter "sees" a proper load.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

On 7/1/2013 12:49 PM, Mike WA8BXN wrote:

> Randy,
>
> I think elevated radials need to be tuned, that is a particular length for a
> given band. If you will be operating multiple bands, a set is needed for
> each band. Radials on or under ground do not need to be a particular length
> to work (more and longer is probably always good).
>
> What band(s) do you want to operate? If 20 meters, you might consider an end
> fed half wave vertical that would not need much ground system.
>
> 73 - Mike WA8BXN
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Randy Cook
> Date: 07/01/13 12:30:28
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna
>
> I would appreciate any help from the group on my unusual antenna situation.
> Not really Elecraft related, so OK to respond off line.
>
> Recently, we had to gut our back yard, as several Redwood trees were
> undermining a retaining wall. Bad situation. So, the trees had to go, and
> with them my antenna supports! I now have essentially a 50ft by 30ft yard
> with 6ft fences on the three sides, house and porch on the fourth. Some
> hardscape prevents long radials. For aesthetic reasons, I don't have a tower
> or tall supports. My first shot was a fiberglass pole, at about 34ft, with a
> wire up the middle. Terminates in the base to an MFJ antenna autotuner. I
> placed the pole a few feet from the corner of the lot where, when painted,
> blends into a neighbors tree behind, and is an barely visible from the
> street.
>
> My limitations are the radial field. I did some research, and started with 8
> wires, varying from 15' to 35' in a 100 degree spread on the flower beds and
> small lawn. Another ham suggested elevated radials as an alternative, so I
> tried two 35' radials at 90 deg angles along two fence sides, about 4' off
> the ground. Much of what I read was from hams with big lots and dozens of
> radial in all directions. Couldn't find much on my situation.
>
> Conditions have not been that good, and other commitments have prevented
> much testing. I have some time now and want to find the best solution.
> Questions for the group--
>
> Give the limits on the radial field (90-110 degrees, limited length) is 10
> buried better than 2 elevated?
>
> Does it make sense to use BOTH elevated and buried?
>
> Some prelim testing, using some SE Asia DX stations, showed little
> difference in the receive signal strength switching in either or both radial
> plans. I plan on using some on air events this week to gather signal
> strength reports on my transmissions.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> 73
>
> Randy Cook - K6CRC
> K3 #2051
> [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Mel

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

In reply to this post by Ignacy

Consider the OCF vertical dipole.

Mel

________________________________
From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

All of the "no radial verticals" that I've seen are electrically 1/2
wavelength long and so behave as an end-fed dipole. Since the feed point
impedance is very high, there is very little current flowing and so a ground
connection has relatively little impact on the efficiency.

Another great reference for vertical antennas is "Vertical Antenna Classics"
published by the ARRL (ARRL Order No. 5218, ISBN 0-87259-521-8)

73, Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----
...If elevated radials are not tuned and not quarter wave, the efficiency
may be even higher than with quarter wave radials but the feed point is
likely to be at a very high voltage. This requires either very high
impedance chokes or transformers. No radial verticals are case in point.

There is a 160m vertical with innovative elevated radial
(http://www.w0uce.net/K2AVantennas.html). It is equivalent to two elevated
radials and coil. There is an anecdotal information that this vertical works
much better than a vertical with many short ground radials.

Ignacy, NO9E

--
View this message in context:
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/OT-Radials-for-Vertical-Antenna-tp75760
89p7576111.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
______________________________________________________________
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w7aqk

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

In reply to this post by Randy Cook-2

Hi Randy and All,

A lot of answers to your questions, but I think what you really need to do
is read the extensive coverage of this topic by Rudy Severns, N6LF. Go to
this website:

http://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/

There are at least two groups of QEX articles you probably would be most
interested in reading. One is his general series on ground system
experimentation, and his later articles on elevated radials. All these were
published in QEX, and Rudy did a great deal of study and experimentation in
preparation for writing them. Few people understand this subject better, or
at least the practicalities of such systems.

Early on Rudy commented that as few as 4 elevated radials could probably
outperform an extensively laid ground radial system. However, it turns out
that this also required very rigid tuning procedures, and that probably 8 or
more were really what would be necessary. The bugaboo, apparently, is
getting the current distribution right in the radials themselves--otherwise
they can become counter productive, or I think that was his conclusion.

In any event, this is really good stuff, and well worth studying. It may
not answer all your questions, but you will undoubtedly learn a lot about
radial systems in the process, and you can experiment on your own as you see
fit.

Dave W7AQK

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Terry Schieler-2

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

In reply to this post by Matt Zilmer

I'll have to go on record as disagreeing with Matt, W6NIA's statement below. Elevated radials *are* better than buried radials only *if* the vertical is not ground-mounted and the radials are tuned to resonance for each band.

With ground-mounted verticals, the radials need not be tuned and do a better job if a large quantity of them are spread out on or below the ground. I would not use elevated radials with a ground-mounted vertical.

Terry W0FM

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Zilmer [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 12:33 PM
To: Randy Cook
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

Elevated radials are better than buried, but more radials are better than a few or none. A good minimum number (for each band) would be 8.
Many studies on this have shown many more than 8 per band (like > 25) is much better and, of course, much harder and expensive to field.

I have a 33' vertical made of heavywall aluminum that has 7 radials for 40m and another 7 for 15m. It works well enough, but generally I use it as an RX ANT for the K3's sub rx. In my own case, the radials are buried for aesthetic reasons. Plus, I don't want to need to duck down when mowing. There is no ATU at the base of this vertical.

When using this antenna for RMS Winmor (for Navy-Marine Corps MARS) just below 40m, it had no trouble handling all states west of the Mississippi with 150W drive.

I would say that you should do what you can to maximize the radial count, even if it means changing your location plan.

73,
matt W6NIA

______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Matt Zilmer

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

Actually, I don't think we're disagreeing. But if so, point(s) taken.
I didn't mention that elevated radials shouldn't be used with a ground
mounted vertical (I wouldn't try this either). Anyway, thanks for the
info about having to tune them. That part I didn't know.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 10:04:32 -0500, you wrote:

>I'll have to go on record as disagreeing with Matt, W6NIA's statement below.
Elevated radials *are* better than buried radials only *if* the
vertical is not ground-mounted and the radials are tuned to resonance
for each band.
>
>With ground-mounted verticals, the radials need not be tuned and do a
better job if a large quantity of them are spread out on or below the
ground. I would not use elevated radials with a ground-mounted
vertical.

>
>Terry W0FM
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Matt Zilmer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>Sent: Monday, July 01, 2013 12:33 PM
>To: Randy Cook
>Cc: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna
>
>Elevated radials are better than buried, but more radials are better than a few or none. A good minimum number (for each band) would be 8.
>Many studies on this have shown many more than 8 per band (like > 25) is much better and, of course, much harder and expensive to field.
>
>I have a 33' vertical made of heavywall aluminum that has 7 radials for 40m and another 7 for 15m. It works well enough, but generally I use it as an RX ANT for the K3's sub rx. In my own case, the radials are buried for aesthetic reasons. Plus, I don't want to need to duck down when mowing. There is no ATU at the base of this vertical.
>
>When using this antenna for RMS Winmor (for Navy-Marine Corps MARS) just below 40m, it had no trouble handling all states west of the Mississippi with 150W drive.
>
>I would say that you should do what you can to maximize the radial count, even if it means changing your location plan.
>
>73,
>matt W6NIA
>
>

Mel

Re: OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

Yes, on tuning the radials on none mounted verticals. Look at the design information on any VHF ground plane 1/4 wave vertical.

Mel, K6KBE

________________________________
From: Matt Zilmer <[hidden email]>
To: Terry Schieler <[hidden email]>
Cc: 'Randy Cook' <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 8:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT- Radials for Vertical Antenna

Actually, I don't think we're disagreeing. But if so, point(s) taken.
I didn't mention that elevated radials shouldn't be used with a ground
mounted vertical (I wouldn't try this either). Anyway, thanks for the
info about having to tune them. That part I didn't know.

73,
matt W6NIA

On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 10:04:32 -0500, you wrote:

>I'll have to go on record as disagreeing with Matt, W6NIA's statement below.
Elevated radials *are* better than buried radials only *if* the
vertical is not ground-mounted and the radials are tuned to resonance
for each band.
>
>With ground-mounted verticals, the radials need not be tuned and do a
better job if a large quantity of them are spread out on or below the
ground. I would not use elevated radials with a ground-mounted
vertical.

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