Elecraft

OT: Remote antenna tuner

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Ken G Kopp

OT: Remote antenna tuner

If an antenna is showing a VSVR of 3:1, something about the situation
is wrong, and most likely it's -not- the antenna. Fix the problem … feed
the antenna power where it's resonant, assuming the antenna is actually
resonant on the amateur band of interest. Expecting a tuner to compensate
for a problem external to an antenna is unreasonable, IMO

73!

Ken - K0PP
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Helmut Berka - DL2MAJ

Re: OT: Remote antenna tuner

In my case I have 2x 8.5m wire only.

How to use it on 80m .. 10m ?????

A tuner is required!!

Here I use a modified version of a symmetrical tuner AT-502
(www.hamware.de), which works perfectly with my K3 (#1804).

vy 73 de
Helmut DL2MAJ

Am 31/03/2019 um 18:13 schrieb Ken G Kopp:

> If an antenna is showing a VSVR of 3:1, something about the situation
> is wrong, and most likely it's -not- the antenna. Fix the problem … feed
> the antenna power where it's resonant, assuming the antenna is actually
> resonant on the amateur band of interest. Expecting a tuner to compensate
> for a problem external to an antenna is unreasonable, IMO
>
> 73!
>
> Ken - K0PP
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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W2xj

Re: OT: Remote antenna tuner

In reply to this post by Ken G Kopp

I would disagree. Most high power commercial operations use non-resonant mismatched antennas. Typically there is either a tuner at the antenna or open wire is used.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 31, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If an antenna is showing a VSVR of 3:1, something about the situation
> is wrong, and most likely it's -not- the antenna. Fix the problem … feed
> the antenna power where it's resonant, assuming the antenna is actually
> resonant on the amateur band of interest. Expecting a tuner to compensate
> for a problem external to an antenna is unreasonable, IMO
>
> 73!
>
> Ken - K0PP
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Chris_DL2MDU

Re: OT: Remote antenna tuner

On my holiday style operations I use a doublet with 300 Ohm twin lead cable.
The end of that 300 Ohm feeder is connected to a 4:1 BALUN
The BALUN is hooked direct to the K3S / K3
With the internal ATU I can use that antenna from 10 to 80 with 100 Watts

For details have a look to http://www.dl2mdu.de/antenna/

73 de Chris, DL2MDU

Am 31.03.2019 um 18:44 schrieb W2xj:

> I would disagree. Most high power commercial operations use non-resonant mismatched antennas. Typically there is either a tuner at the antenna or open wire is used.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 31, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> If an antenna is showing a VSVR of 3:1, something about the situation
>> is wrong, and most likely it's -not- the antenna. Fix the problem … feed
>> the antenna power where it's resonant, assuming the antenna is actually
>> resonant on the amateur band of interest. Expecting a tuner to compensate
>> for a problem external to an antenna is unreasonable, IMO
>>
>> 73!
>>
>> Ken - K0PP
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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73 Chris, DL2MDU

Jim Brown-10

Re: OT: Remote antenna tuner

In reply to this post by Ken G Kopp

On 3/31/2019 9:13 AM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
> If an antenna is showing a VSVR of 3:1, something about the situation
> is wrong, and most likely it's -not- the antenna.

Ever try to use a simple half-wave dipole from 3.5-4 MHz? There are ways
to do it, but it takes effort.

73, Jim K9YC

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k6dgw

Re: OT: Remote antenna tuner

In reply to this post by W2xj

I also disagree. AM broadcast verticals are designed to achieve a
desired pattern and main lobe elevation angle. Over flat ground, 225
degrees will optimize the ground wave coverage. However, higher powered
stations will then suffer from self-interference at the coverage edges
because the sky wave and ground wave interfere. It's common to shorten
the antenna a bit to perhaps 195 degrees or so which tends to reduce the
self-interference. Once the pattern and main lobe angle have been
defined, the feed point is matched to the transmission line with an
appropriate network. Neither 225 degrees [5/8 wave] nor 195 degrees are
resonant lengths and both require a matching network.

Many hams do not have the luxury of resonant antennas on every band. It
seems perfectly reasonable to employ some sort of matching network to
match the feed point to the coax on bands where it is not resonant
AND/OR does not present a 50 ohm load to the coax and needing to do so
does not imply there's something wrong with the antenna.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/31/2019 9:44 AM, W2xj wrote:

W2xj

Re: OT: Remote antenna tuner

Let me add that even a quarter wave vertical is rarely a perfect match. The 50 ohm point is almost never the same as the j0 point. HF broadcasters don’t even try for a match. Typically open wire line is used and the match is achieved at the transmitter output network. They pump up to 500KW into VSWRs over 2:1.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 31, 2019, at 6:03 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I also disagree. AM broadcast verticals are designed to achieve a desired pattern and main lobe elevation angle. Over flat ground, 225 degrees will optimize the ground wave coverage. However, higher powered stations will then suffer from self-interference at the coverage edges because the sky wave and ground wave interfere. It's common to shorten the antenna a bit to perhaps 195 degrees or so which tends to reduce the self-interference. Once the pattern and main lobe angle have been defined, the feed point is matched to the transmission line with an appropriate network. Neither 225 degrees [5/8 wave] nor 195 degrees are resonant lengths and both require a matching network.
>
> Many hams do not have the luxury of resonant antennas on every band. It seems perfectly reasonable to employ some sort of matching network to match the feed point to the coax on bands where it is not resonant AND/OR does not present a 50 ohm load to the coax and needing to do so does not imply there's something wrong with the antenna.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 3/31/2019 9:44 AM, W2xj wrote:
>> I would disagree. Most high power commercial operations use non-resonant mismatched antennas. Typically there is either a tuner at the antenna or open wire is used.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 31, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> If an antenna is showing a VSVR of 3:1, something about the situation
>>> is wrong, and most likely it's -not- the antenna. Fix the problem … feed
>>> the antenna power where it's resonant, assuming the antenna is actually
>>> resonant on the amateur band of interest. Expecting a tuner to compensate
>>> for a problem external to an antenna is unreasonable, IMO
>>>
>>> 73!
>>>
>>> Ken - K0PP
>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Chris_DL2MDU

Re: OT: Remote antenna tuner

In reply to this post by Chris_DL2MDU

I am sorry for any confusion. But I used that antenna on the Maldives Isl.
and from D4 (Cape Verde) with great success.

3200 + QSOs as D44TUK on CW and 1400 as D44TUQ (my YL) on RTTY was
verifying that.

To answer your question now, I have seen that combination with the 4:1
balun at one of our
competitors in the IARU Fieldday Contest. That was before K3 when the
Kenwood TS 850S was the
first choice of serious contester.

I love that marvelously performing ANTENNA TUNER in my K3

73 de Chris, DL2MDU

Am 31.03.2019 um 20:58 schrieb Bob McGraw K4TAX:

> Chris:
>
> Out of curiosity, why did you choose to use a 4:1 balun with that
> antenna/feed line configuration and not a 1:1 balun?
>
> I have a center fed wire fed with 450 ohm twin lead window line and I
> use a 1:1 balun which I'm told is correct.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
> On 3/31/2019 1:51 PM, Christian Friess wrote:
>> On my holiday style operations I use a doublet with 300 Ohm twin lead
>> cable.
>> The end of that 300 Ohm feeder is connected to a 4:1 BALUN
>> The BALUN is hooked direct to the K3S / K3
>> With the internal ATU I can use that antenna from 10 to 80 with 100
>> Watts
>>
>> For details have a look to http://www.dl2mdu.de/antenna/
>>
>> 73 de Chris, DL2MDU
>>
>> Am 31.03.2019 um 18:44 schrieb W2xj:
>>> I would disagree. Most high power commercial operations use
>>> non-resonant mismatched antennas. Typically there is either a tuner
>>> at the antenna or open wire is used.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On Mar 31, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If an antenna is showing a VSVR of 3:1, something about the situation
>>>> is wrong, and most likely it's -not- the antenna. Fix the problem
>>>> … feed
>>>> the antenna power where it's resonant, assuming the antenna is
>>>> actually
>>>> resonant on the amateur band of interest. Expecting a tuner to
>>>> compensate
>>>> for a problem external to an antenna is unreasonable, IMO
>>>>
>>>> 73!
>>>>
>>>> Ken - K0PP
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

73 Chris, DL2MDU