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OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

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Ken G Kopp

OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

John, you're simply incorrect. Our house has a number of WWVB synched
clocks, as do many, many thousands of others.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 09:41 John Harper <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Yes.
> https://www.qrp-labs.com/clockn.html
>
> https://www.runnersworld.com/gear/a20827055/advanced-gps-watches-for-runners/
>
> and more.
>
> Watches and clocks as "justification" for continued WWV broadcasts is
> laughable.
>
> John AE5X
> https://ae5x.blogspot.com
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:36 AM Dr. William J. Schmidt <
> [hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > Well let's start with all of those self-setting watches and wall
> clocks...
> > and then the propagation information that is broadcast. Does GPS do
> that?
> >
> >
> > Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ
> PJ2/K9HZ
> >
> > Owner - Operator
> > Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
> > Staunton, Illinois
> >
> > Owner – Operator
> > Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
> > Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
> > Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com
> > Like us on Facebook!
> >
> > Moderator – North American QRO Group at Groups.IO.
> >
> > email: [hidden email]
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Harper
> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:33 AM
> > To: Elecraft list <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: [Elecraft] WWV/WWVH Closure
> >
> > What is the justification for continued funding of WWV? Hasn't it been
> > obsoleted (if that's a verb) by GPS as far as being a time and freq
> > standard?
> >
> > John AE5X
> > https://ae5x.blogspot.com
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message
> > delivered to [hidden email]
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > https://www.avg.com
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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John Harper

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

I'm wearing an "atomic watch" as we speak and have two such clocks as well.
A few years ago I had a 4:3 Sony Trinitron tv. It was obsoleted by newer
better technology and I now have a 16:9 ratio TV just like you do. The
clock/watch argument in the age of GPS, network and cellular time sync is a
valid argument only to geeks, of which I am one, thanks (in part) to my
Casio watch.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 10:49 AM Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> John, you're simply incorrect. Our house has a number of WWVB synched
> clocks, as do many, many thousands of others.
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 09:41 John Harper <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Yes.
>> https://www.qrp-labs.com/clockn.html
>>
>> https://www.runnersworld.com/gear/a20827055/advanced-gps-watches-for-runners/
>>
>> and more.
>>
>> Watches and clocks as "justification" for continued WWV broadcasts is
>> laughable.
>>
>> John AE5X
>> https://ae5x.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:36 AM Dr. William J. Schmidt <
>> [hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Well let's start with all of those self-setting watches and wall
>> clocks...
>> > and then the propagation information that is broadcast. Does GPS do
>> that?
>> >
>> >
>> > Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ
>> PJ2/K9HZ
>> >
>> > Owner - Operator
>> > Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
>> > Staunton, Illinois
>> >
>> > Owner – Operator
>> > Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
>> > Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
>> > Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com
>> > Like us on Facebook!
>> >
>> > Moderator – North American QRO Group at Groups.IO.
>> >
>> > email: [hidden email]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [hidden email]
>> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Harper
>> > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:33 AM
>> > To: Elecraft list <[hidden email]>
>> > Subject: [Elecraft] WWV/WWVH Closure
>> >
>> > What is the justification for continued funding of WWV? Hasn't it been
>> > obsoleted (if that's a verb) by GPS as far as being a time and freq
>> > standard?
>> >
>> > John AE5X
>> > https://ae5x.blogspot.com
>> > ______________________________________________________________
>> > Elecraft mailing list
>> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>> >
>> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> > Message
>> > delivered to [hidden email]
>> >
>> >
>> > ---
>> > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
>> > https://www.avg.com
>> >
>> >
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-3

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

I think the millions of people who bought "atomic clocks" with no
technical background, no idea of how they set themselves would disagree.

... but only once they realize their "atomic clocks" are far less accurate.

The technology is attractive. You put in a battery, set the time zone
and it just works.

GPS clocks may need a clear view of the sky, and anything using network
time will need to connect to your LAN.

Much harder to set up.

73 -- Lynn

On 8/20/2018 9:10 AM, John Harper wrote:
> The
> clock/watch argument in the age of GPS, network and cellular time sync is a
> valid argument only to geeks, of which I am one, thanks (in part) to my
> Casio watch.
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Phil Kane-2

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

In reply to this post by John Harper

On 8/20/2018 9:10 AM, John Harper wrote:

> The clock/watch argument in the age of GPS, network and cellular time
> sync is a valid argument only to geeks, of which I am one, thanks (in
> part) to my Casio watch.

Neither GPS signals nor the 60 kHz WWVB signal are receivable inside my
apartment (yes, I tried). I briefly looked into a wall clock that used
an Ethernet connection to a NTP time server and had the look of what I
wanted but the cost of the clock approached the cost of the computer
that it would talk to.

Back to not-all-that-obsolete quartz regulated clocks and watches that
need readjustment from time to time. That's where the analog WWV signal
is essential.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

Administrator

Folks -
Please see my prior posts. The WWV thread has been closed.

Eric
Moderator
/elecraft.com/

On 8/20/2018 11:43 AM, Phil Kane wrote:

> On 8/20/2018 9:10 AM, John Harper wrote:
>
>> The clock/watch argument in the age of GPS, network and cellular time
>> sync is a valid argument only to geeks, of which I am one, thanks (in
>> part) to my Casio watch.
> Neither GPS signals nor the 60 kHz WWVB signal are receivable inside my
> apartment (yes, I tried). I briefly looked into a wall clock that used
> an Ethernet connection to a NTP time server and had the look of what I
> wanted but the cost of the clock approached the cost of the computer
> that it would talk to.
>
> Back to not-all-that-obsolete quartz regulated clocks and watches that
> need readjustment from time to time. That's where the analog WWV signal
> is essential.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

K2bew

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

In reply to this post by Ken G Kopp

I don't think John was implying people didn't have or use wwv clocks, but
that's it not a reason by itself for WWV, and I agree with him. Why pay
thousands of dollars to staff and run wwv just for clocks and stuff? With
the internet and phones that use data and or GPS satellites to constantly
synch time more effectively than radio sygnals it does seem crazy to fund
it. Not to mention that Canada has the equivalent already in CHU.
Tom, k2bew

On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 11:51 AM Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> John, you're simply incorrect. Our house has a number of WWVB synched
> clocks, as do many, many thousands of others.
>
> On Mon, Aug 20, 2018, 09:41 John Harper <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Yes.
> > https://www.qrp-labs.com/clockn.html
> >
> >
> https://www.runnersworld.com/gear/a20827055/advanced-gps-watches-for-runners/
> >
> > and more.
> >
> > Watches and clocks as "justification" for continued WWV broadcasts is
> > laughable.
> >
> > John AE5X
> > https://ae5x.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 20, 2018 at 10:36 AM Dr. William J. Schmidt <
> > [hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Well let's start with all of those self-setting watches and wall
> > clocks...
> > > and then the propagation information that is broadcast. Does GPS do
> > that?
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ
> > PJ2/K9HZ
> > >
> > > Owner - Operator
> > > Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
> > > Staunton, Illinois
> > >
> > > Owner – Operator
> > > Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
> > > Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
> > > Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com
> > > Like us on Facebook!
> > >
> > > Moderator – North American QRO Group at Groups.IO.
> > >
> > > email: [hidden email]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Harper
> > > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 10:33 AM
> > > To: Elecraft list <[hidden email]>
> > > Subject: [Elecraft] WWV/WWVH Closure
> > >
> > > What is the justification for continued funding of WWV? Hasn't it been
> > > obsoleted (if that's a verb) by GPS as far as being a time and freq
> > > standard?
> > >
> > > John AE5X
> > > https://ae5x.blogspot.com
> > > ______________________________________________________________
> > > Elecraft mailing list
> > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> > >
> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > > Message
> > > delivered to [hidden email]
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> > > https://www.avg.com
> > >
> > >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

K2bew

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

Sorry don't agree at all. Emergency communications when everything is down
and people need help is not comparable to a transmitter that puts out the
time according to an atomic clock over radio. You can always use a sundial,
and knowing the time to the second is not necessary in an emergency.
Tom

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:43 AM Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8/20/2018 7:16 PM, K2bew wrote:
>
> > With the internet and phones that use data and or GPS satellites to
> > constantly synch time more effectively than radio sygnals it does
> > seem crazy to fund it.
>
> This is the same sort of argument that some folks in the Emergency
> Management community raise - why do we need radios when we have cell
> phones and the internet. That assumes that the internet and the
> cell-phone infrastructure that depends on same will exist when the chips
> are down.
>
> I remember being in the studios of a major AM radio station when the
> corporate auditor told the chief engineer "this could be a very
> profitable operation if we could get rid of this thing called the
> transmitter". (Rest in peace, Howie....)
>
> I would suspect that the incremental cost of running WWV and WWVH -
> which are mostly "set and forget" operations - is of the same order of
> magnitude as the paper towel and toilet paper bill for that agency.
>
> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>
> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

Administrator

Folks - this thread was already closed. Please no more WWV posts.

73,
Eric
Moderator, COO, etc.
/elecraft.com/

On 8/21/2018 9:05 AM, K2bew wrote:
> Sorry don't agree at all. Emergency communications when everything is down
> and people need help is not comparable to a transmitter that puts out the
> time according to an atomic clock over radio. You can always use a sundial,
> and knowing the time to the second is not necessary in an emergency.
> Tom
>
>

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Lee Ormiston

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

In reply to this post by K2bew

The cesium and iridium clocks at National Institute of Standards and
Technology through WWV and WWVH broadcasts, provide the time signals to the
Global Positioning System satellites which without time signals to the Wide
Area Augmentation system from WWV & WWVH are not accurate for navigation
purposes. The WWV and WWVH broadcasts also provide the time signals for
satellites and space probes.

These signals also provide the time stability for all the Joe Taylor
communication modes.

The bit about my $30 wrist watch being incredibly accurate is not important
in the grand scheme of things.

73 Lee
NORRL

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 10:05 AM, K2bew <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sorry don't agree at all. Emergency communications when everything is down
> and people need help is not comparable to a transmitter that puts out the
> time according to an atomic clock over radio. You can always use a sundial,
> and knowing the time to the second is not necessary in an emergency.
> Tom
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:43 AM Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 8/20/2018 7:16 PM, K2bew wrote:
> >
> > > With the internet and phones that use data and or GPS satellites to
> > > constantly synch time more effectively than radio sygnals it does
> > > seem crazy to fund it.
> >
> > This is the same sort of argument that some folks in the Emergency
> > Management community raise - why do we need radios when we have cell
> > phones and the internet. That assumes that the internet and the
> > cell-phone infrastructure that depends on same will exist when the chips
> > are down.
> >
> > I remember being in the studios of a major AM radio station when the
> > corporate auditor told the chief engineer "this could be a very
> > profitable operation if we could get rid of this thing called the
> > transmitter". (Rest in peace, Howie....)
> >
> > I would suspect that the incremental cost of running WWV and WWVH -
> > which are mostly "set and forget" operations - is of the same order of
> > magnitude as the paper towel and toilet paper bill for that agency.
> >
> > 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
> > Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
> >
> > From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
> > Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: OT: WWV/WWVH Closure

Administrator

As noted in my prior email - This thread was closed yesterday.

73,
Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 8/21/2018 10:57 AM, Lee Ormiston wrote:

> The cesium and iridium clocks at National Institute of Standards and
> Technology through WWV and WWVH broadcasts, provide the time signals to the
> Global Positioning System satellites which without time signals to the Wide
> Area Augmentation system from WWV & WWVH are not accurate for navigation
> purposes. The WWV and WWVH broadcasts also provide the time signals for
> satellites and space probes.
>
> These signals also provide the time stability for all the Joe Taylor
> communication modes.
>
> The bit about my $30 wrist watch being incredibly accurate is not important
> in the grand scheme of things.
>
> 73 Lee
> NORRL
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 10:05 AM, K2bew <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Sorry don't agree at all. Emergency communications when everything is down
>> and people need help is not comparable to a transmitter that puts out the
>> time according to an atomic clock over radio. You can always use a sundial,
>> and knowing the time to the second is not necessary in an emergency.
>> Tom
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 9:43 AM Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/20/2018 7:16 PM, K2bew wrote:
>>>
>>>> With the internet and phones that use data and or GPS satellites to
>>>> constantly synch time more effectively than radio sygnals it does
>>>> seem crazy to fund it.
>>> This is the same sort of argument that some folks in the Emergency
>>> Management community raise - why do we need radios when we have cell
>>> phones and the internet. That assumes that the internet and the
>>> cell-phone infrastructure that depends on same will exist when the chips
>>> are down.
>>>
>>> I remember being in the studios of a major AM radio station when the
>>> corporate auditor told the chief engineer "this could be a very
>>> profitable operation if we could get rid of this thing called the
>>> transmitter". (Rest in peace, Howie....)
>>>
>>> I would suspect that the incremental cost of running WWV and WWVH -
>>> which are mostly "set and forget" operations - is of the same order of
>>> magnitude as the paper towel and toilet paper bill for that agency.
>>>
>>> 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
>>> Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
>>>
>>> From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
>>> Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]