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OT: Whole House Generator

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Doug Hensley

OT: Whole House Generator

If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the list.

I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called "Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively clean sine wave. So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, a level virtually undetectable to the user.

Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it? Their standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn some communications services might become unuseable.

Again, respond to me privately: << w5jv @ hotmail.com >>.

Thank you,

Doug W5JV

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Re: OT: Whole House Generator

I tried to get more information on the "syntergy" process. I know of no electrical design of the alternator that allow a non distorted change in frequency of the output, However a method of load sensing and a planetary transmission with speed selection could do the job of letting the motor run slower while the alternator is at constant speed. The 5-12 minute load sensing could be the process of the speed selection so that no load is affected. Hummm interesting.
I have a 35 KW diesel Generac and never looked back. It uses the old governor method of adjusting engineer fuel/RPM to load. Less load less fuel used. OH well.
Mel, K6KBE

From: Doug Hensley <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 1:18 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the list.

I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called "Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively clean sine wave. So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, a level virtually undetectable to the user.

Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it? Their standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn some communications services might become unuseable.

Again, respond to me privately: << w5jv @ hotmail.com >>.

Thank you,

Doug W5JV

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT-2

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

In reply to this post by Doug Hensley

I suspect a fair number of us are interested, as long as we can keep to
the (reasonable) OT limits.

Friends have Generac units, not "low distortion" and report good results.

Since most of the ham gear I've owned takes 110v, rectifies, filters and
regulates it, I'm not sure we need to worry about distortion.

The exception is your basic uninterruptible power supply that senses
distortion and thinks it's a sign of an upcoming outage.

73 -- Lynn

On 9/7/2017 1:15 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:

> If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the list.
>
>
> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called "Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively clean sine wave. So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, a level virtually undetectable to the user.
>
>
> Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it? Their standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn some communications services might become unuseable.
>
>
> Again, respond to me privately: << w5jv @ hotmail.com >>.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Doug W5JV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

Mark Bayern-3

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I found that Generac has a series of egens they call the 'Synergy'
line. These are variable speed generators. The only variable speed
generators I'm familiar rectify the alternator's output then use PWM
to generate the 60hz 115VAC waveform.

The Honda small portable 1KW and 2KW gens use this system.

Mark

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I tried to get more information on the "syntergy" process. I know of no electrical design of the alternator that allow a non distorted change in frequency of the output, However a method of load sensing and a planetary transmission with speed selection could do the job of letting the motor run slower while the alternator is at constant speed. The 5-12 minute load sensing could be the process of the speed selection so that no load is affected. Hummm interesting.
> I have a 35 KW diesel Generac and never looked back. It uses the old governor method of adjusting engineer fuel/RPM to load. Less load less fuel used. OH well.
> Mel, K6KBE
>
> From: Doug Hensley <[hidden email]>
> To: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 1:18 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator
>
> If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the list.
>
>
> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called "Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively clean sine wave. So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion, a level virtually undetectable to the user.
>
>
> Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it? Their standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn some communications services might become unuseable.
>
>
> Again, respond to me privately: << w5jv @ hotmail.com >>.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Doug W5JV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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N2TK

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

In reply to this post by Doug Hensley

The only issue I have had with my Generac 16KW Quiet-Source was with a
couple old UPS supplies. In their software I had to open up the window for
voltage. The new UPS supplies and any other equipment in the house have not
had any problem with the generator power. I like the idea of the
"Syntergy".
Let us know how you make out

73,
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug Hensley
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 4:16 PM
To: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the
list.

I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator and
what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called
"Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively
clean sine wave. So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion,
a level virtually undetectable to the user.

Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it? Their
standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn
some communications services might become unuseable.

Again, respond to me privately: << w5jv @ hotmail.com >>.

Thank you,

Doug W5JV

______________________________________________________________
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Re: OT: Whole House Generator

In reply to this post by Mark Bayern-3

OK, more complexity more MTBF issues. If the system is for whole house backup and you need LONG term protection, think "reliability".
The older systems are easy to maintain and service and there is nothing to go wrong on the AC generation that simple parts you can get will get it back working. Hummmmm.
My OLDER Generac is 35 years old and running with exception to replace a simple battery alternator, fan belts and thermal switches that did not fix.
Mel, K6KBE

From: Mark Bayern <[hidden email]>
To: Mel Farrer <[hidden email]>
Cc: Doug Hensley <[hidden email]>; Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

I found that Generac has a series of egens they call the 'Synergy'
line. These are variable speed generators. The only variable speed
generators I'm familiar rectify the alternator's output then use PWM
to generate the 60hz 115VAC waveform.

The Honda small portable 1KW and 2KW gens use this system.

Mark

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft
<[hidden email]> wrote:

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

In reply to this post by Mark Bayern-3

This new variety of Generac's are obviously all the new "Inverter" type
generators, because in order for a non-invertor type to make 60 Hz AC power,
it HAS to run at some multiple of 60Hz, typically 3600 RPM constant speed.

The ONLY way the engine speed can vary is to utilize an SS circuit to
generate the required 60 HZ sine wave.

I currently have a Honda EU7000 set up in an "almost" automatic running
mode. I have to manually start the generator and hit a push-button which
energizes a big transfer switch so certain circuits in the house go from
mains to generator.
When commercial power is restored for at least a continuous minute, the
system reverts back to mains power. I then have to manually shut off the
generator.

Glad to see Generac moving to this type. It should make your UPS systems
much happier.

73, Charlie k3ICH''

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mark Bayern
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2017 5:16 PM
To: Mel Farrer <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>; Doug Hensley
<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator

I found that Generac has a series of egens they call the 'Synergy'
line. These are variable speed generators. The only variable speed
generators I'm familiar rectify the alternator's output then use PWM to
generate the 60hz 115VAC waveform.

The Honda small portable 1KW and 2KW gens use this system.

Mark

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I tried to get more information on the "syntergy" process. I know of no
electrical design of the alternator that allow a non distorted change in
frequency of the output, However a method of load sensing and a planetary
transmission with speed selection could do the job of letting the motor run
slower while the alternator is at constant speed. The 5-12 minute load
sensing could be the process of the speed selection so that no load is
affected. Hummm interesting.
> I have a 35 KW diesel Generac and never looked back. It uses the old
governor method of adjusting engineer fuel/RPM to load. Less load less fuel
used. OH well.
> Mel, K6KBE
>
> From: Doug Hensley <[hidden email]>
> To: Elecraft List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 1:18 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: Whole House Generator
>
> If you want to respond to this, please respond privately to me and NOT the
list.
>
>
> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator
and what caught my ey in the process was a new generator by GENERAC called
"Syntergy" which uses a new three-vein generator and produces a relatively
clean sine wave. So clean, GENERAC claims less than 1% harmonic distortion,
a level virtually undetectable to the user.
>
>
> Has anyone studied this unit and made any conclusions about it? Their
standard unit produces a minimum of 10% harmonic distortion and they warn
some communications services might become unuseable.

>
>
> Again, respond to me privately: << w5jv @ hotmail.com >>.
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Doug W5JV
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]

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k6dgw

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Hmmm ... for over a decade we used a stock gasoline Generac [7.5 KVA
IIRC] at the Alpine County camp for the Cal QSO Party. Acoustically
noisy [RF quiet] but ran fine and the various transceivers we used over
the years never complained. With the tube amps, PF ran around 0.9 or so,
with the KPA500 it ran around 0.8 or so. We also had a Honda inverter
[2 KW], used primarily in econo-mode to run the electric blankets at
night [very quiet idle]. It was RF-quiet too, just struggled some if we
tried to run the station on it.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 9/7/2017 1:54 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:

Jim Brown-10

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

In reply to this post by Doug Hensley

On 9/7/2017 1:15 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:
> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator

It's worth thinking about your needs first. Key questions are"

1) What loads do I need to run from it? Get hard numbers, including
starting current for motors (refrigerators, well pumps, etc.) The 120V
loads can easily be measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter. You'll need a
clamp-on current probe for your VOM or scope to measure permanently
wired loads and 240V loads.

2) How often are power outages? How long do they last?

3) Do I really need to run A/C from a generator? Obviously depends on
climate, but also demands a bigger generator and a lot more fuel.

I have two generators. One is a Honda 2000i, which I can easily carry,
and use for portable hamming. The second is a 6.5kVA Honda (EU6500?)
that can be set for either 120VAC or 120/240 with a neutral. I use it in
the 120/240V mode. It's big enough to run my well motors.

I've rewired the breaker panel in my home to put all my "critical" loads
on one side of 120V -- lights, computers, TV, refrigerator -- and have
found that the little 2000i can run it all in econ-mode. That gives us
the option of using the smaller generator until we need to re-build the
water pressure during a long outage.

73, Jim K9YC

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ae5ka

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

I have a Kohler 8 kw unit on a whole house automatic transfer switch that
runs on propane, No A/C so 8 kW supplies the whole house just fine. I've
measured its output at 4% THD using a Fluke power quality meter with or
without load. Seems to fit the ticket.

Chip
AE5KA

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9/7/2017 1:15 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:
>
>> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator
>>
>
> It's worth thinking about your needs first. Key questions are"
>
> 1) What loads do I need to run from it? Get hard numbers, including
> starting current for motors (refrigerators, well pumps, etc.) The 120V
> loads can easily be measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter. You'll need a
> clamp-on current probe for your VOM or scope to measure permanently wired
> loads and 240V loads.
>
> 2) How often are power outages? How long do they last?
>
> 3) Do I really need to run A/C from a generator? Obviously depends on
> climate, but also demands a bigger generator and a lot more fuel.
>
> I have two generators. One is a Honda 2000i, which I can easily carry, and
> use for portable hamming. The second is a 6.5kVA Honda (EU6500?) that can
> be set for either 120VAC or 120/240 with a neutral. I use it in the
> 120/240V mode. It's big enough to run my well motors.
>
> I've rewired the breaker panel in my home to put all my "critical" loads
> on one side of 120V -- lights, computers, TV, refrigerator -- and have
> found that the little 2000i can run it all in econ-mode. That gives us the
> option of using the smaller generator until we need to re-build the water
> pressure during a long outage.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

N4ZR

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

FWIW, I have a 16 KW Generac propane generator. It uses load-shedding
modules with an automatic transfer switch, so that if my load exceeds
capacity the 240-VAC loads will be shed one at a time. I figure the
chances of my simultaneously running the dryer, the oven, the AC and my
amplifier are pretty low. Haven't noticed any problems with the
waveform, but haven't really looked.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 9/8/2017 8:46 AM, Chip Stratton wrote:

> I have a Kohler 8 kw unit on a whole house automatic transfer switch that
> runs on propane, No A/C so 8 kW supplies the whole house just fine. I've
> measured its output at 4% THD using a Fluke power quality meter with or
> without load. Seems to fit the ticket.
>
> Chip
> AE5KA
>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 9/7/2017 1:15 PM, Doug Hensley wrote:
>>
>>> I am going through the process of choosing a whole house home generator
>>>
>> It's worth thinking about your needs first. Key questions are"
>>
>> 1) What loads do I need to run from it? Get hard numbers, including
>> starting current for motors (refrigerators, well pumps, etc.) The 120V
>> loads can easily be measured with a Kill-A-Watt meter. You'll need a
>> clamp-on current probe for your VOM or scope to measure permanently wired
>> loads and 240V loads.
>>
>> 2) How often are power outages? How long do they last?
>>
>> 3) Do I really need to run A/C from a generator? Obviously depends on
>> climate, but also demands a bigger generator and a lot more fuel.
>>
>> I have two generators. One is a Honda 2000i, which I can easily carry, and
>> use for portable hamming. The second is a 6.5kVA Honda (EU6500?) that can
>> be set for either 120VAC or 120/240 with a neutral. I use it in the
>> 120/240V mode. It's big enough to run my well motors.
>>
>> I've rewired the breaker panel in my home to put all my "critical" loads
>> on one side of 120V -- lights, computers, TV, refrigerator -- and have
>> found that the little 2000i can run it all in econ-mode. That gives us the
>> option of using the smaller generator until we need to re-build the water
>> pressure during a long outage.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: OT: Whole House Generator

I'd have a fully automatic generator in a second IF we had propane or natural gas available.
However, the addition of suitable tanks and piping, which MUST be installed "professionally", would be well over the cost of the generator itself.

All of you with non-invertor conventional 3600 RPM generators should take a look at the actual waveform coming out of them.
My older Honda ES-6500 would run anything I connected to it, but my computer UPS did NOT like it. The waveform was basically 60 Hz but there was noticeable distortion and glitches.

The inverters are certainly more complicated with potentially more things to fail, BUT the waveform out of My Honda EU-7000 is audio signal generator clean.

73, Charlie k3ICH

On 9/8/2017 8:46 AM, Chip Stratton wrote:
> I have a Kohler 8 kw unit on a whole house automatic transfer switch
> that runs on propane, No A/C so 8 kW supplies the whole house just
> fine. I've measured its output at 4% THD using a Fluke power quality
> meter with or without load. Seems to fit the ticket.
>
> Chip
> AE5KA
>

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