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OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

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VA3LX

OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

Hello,

We live on a very windy Island (with an industrial wind farm) and have been
loosing shingles off the roof due to severe wind storms.

We've been considering having a metal roof, but I'm wondering about the
possible impact of the metal roof on the radiation pattern and efficacy of
nearby antennas.

There's a SteppIR on a tower about 20 feet from a corner of the roof. The
antenna is about 30 feet higher than the highest point of the roof.

I'd appreciate learning from anyone with relevant experience or technical
expertise related to this.

Many thanks.

73s,

Paul
VA3LX
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Jim Bennett

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

Paul,

Our home is about 25 miles east of downtown Sacramento, CA. It is a two story home and until May of 2012 had a wood shake roof - very common in this part of the state. It was the original roof, about 21 years old, and was getting pretty nasty. We had it replaced with a metal roof: the "Barcelona" style of powder coated steel roofing made by Gerard.

My primary antenna is an 88 foot long doublet made with #26 wire. It is supported in the center (at 45 feet) by a long fiberglass windsurfing mast. The ends run through some trees to the north and south. The roof is only about 15-20 feet from quite a bit of the antenna. I did not notice ANY differences in performance of this antenna when we had the roof replaced.

Note that with the wood shake roof, my feeder was 600-ohm line that I had simply lying on the wood shakes. I knew that was not a good idea with a metal roof, so I replaced the 600-ohm feeder with 450-ohm ladder line and routed that along the side of the house, running about 120 feet from the shack window to the antenna. Other than my K3's internal tuner having to re-learn tuning algorithms for each band/frequency, all was good.

I never bothered to mess with my eznec radiation pattern stuff, as (1) the patterns from a doublet are really whacky to begin with, and (2) I had no other options, so I knew "it is what it is!". :-)

IMHO, you may see "some" difference, but I doubt it's going to be significant.

Jim / W6JHB
Folsom, CA (not the prison!)

On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 9:19 AM, Paul Taenzer wrote:

> Hello,
>
> We live on a very windy Island (with an industrial wind farm) and have been
> loosing shingles off the roof due to severe wind storms.
>
> We've been considering having a metal roof, but I'm wondering about the
> possible impact of the metal roof on the radiation pattern and efficacy of
> nearby antennas.
>
> There's a SteppIR on a tower about 20 feet from a corner of the roof. The
> antenna is about 30 feet higher than the highest point of the roof.
>
> I'd appreciate learning from anyone with relevant experience or technical
> expertise related to this.
>
> Many thanks.
>
> 73s,
>
> Paul
> VA3LX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Mel

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

Hello Paul,

I have not had any bad experience with metal roof with one exception. I had a garage with a metal roof and while I did not see any pattern or tuning issues, I did notice that on a couple of galvanized panels where the connection was marginal, some discoloration where they touched. I was using a 14AVQ at power near the roof. RF currents? With insulated panels that are screwed together, or galvanized ones with sheet metal screws probably will never give you any problems.

On my barn which is 46 x 54 feet I have used a vertical with the Galvanized panel roof as a ground plane. Worked great.

Mel, K6KBE

________________________________
From: Jim Bennett <[hidden email]>
To: Paul Taenzer <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

Paul,

Our home is about 25 miles east of downtown Sacramento, CA. It is a two story home and until May of 2012 had a wood shake roof - very common in this part of the state. It was the original roof, about 21 years old, and was getting pretty nasty. We had it replaced with a metal roof: the "Barcelona" style of powder coated steel roofing made by Gerard.

My primary antenna is an 88 foot long doublet made with #26 wire. It is supported in the center (at 45 feet) by a long fiberglass windsurfing mast. The ends run through some trees to the north and south. The roof is only about 15-20 feet from quite a bit of the antenna. I did not notice ANY differences in performance of this antenna when we had the roof replaced.

Note that with the wood shake roof, my feeder was 600-ohm line that I had simply lying on the wood shakes. I knew that was not a good idea with a metal roof, so I replaced the 600-ohm feeder with 450-ohm ladder line and routed that along the side of the house, running about 120 feet from the shack window to the antenna. Other than my K3's internal tuner having to re-learn tuning algorithms for each band/frequency, all was good.

I never bothered to mess with my eznec radiation pattern stuff, as (1) the patterns from a doublet are really whacky to begin with, and (2) I had no other options, so I knew "it is what it is!". :-)

IMHO, you may see "some" difference, but I doubt it's going to be significant.

Jim / W6JHB
Folsom, CA (not the prison!)

On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 9:19 AM, Paul Taenzer wrote:

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Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

In reply to this post by VA3LX

Paul, I doubt that anyone can predict the effect exactly without some very sophisticated modeling software and exact dimensions. I will give a stab at it, but because you are talking about a very wide frequency band and some unknowns about bonding and the conductivity of the roof you will have as an alternate I will have to speak in generalities.

Since you are talking 30 feet from the antenna which is about 1/2 wavelength on 20 meters, presumed to be the lowest frequency, the effect should not be too great.

The alternate roofing material will also affect radiation somewhat, so I would doubt that the solid metel effect would be much greater than composition shingles. I don't know much about ceramic roofs, but I would guess they would have a little greater effect than composition but less than metal.

I would expect more effect on pattern than SWR or other loading indications. The effect, if noticed at all would be a slight signal improvement in the directions away from the room and a slight deterioration in the direction of the roof.

I would expect that your situation will be very interesting for observation and discussion during rag chews and increase your enjoyment of your QTH and amateur radio. We hams like to observe and discuss such things at length. I would predict that you are much more likely to make interesting contacts while sitting in a dry hamshack talking on the radio than while replacing shingles standing on the roof. My advice as an Electrical Engineer and after 57 years as a ham radio operator is to buy the roof you want, enjoy the lack of leaks and continue to enjoy radio. I doubt that you will notice much difference in antenna performance, but you will spend many enjoyable hours trying and discussing the difference on the radio and in eyeball QSOs.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart

________________________________
From: Paul Taenzer <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 11:19 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

Hello,

We live on a very windy Island (with an industrial wind farm) and have been
loosing shingles off the roof due to severe wind storms.

We've been considering having a metal roof, but I'm wondering about the
possible impact of the metal roof on the radiation pattern and efficacy of
nearby antennas.

There's a SteppIR on a tower about 20 feet from a corner of the roof. The
antenna is about 30 feet higher than the highest point of the roof.

I'd appreciate learning from anyone with relevant experience or technical
expertise related to this.

Many thanks.

73s,

Paul
VA3LX
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Jim Bennett

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

In reply to this post by Jim Bennett

Yes. Yes I was. :-)

On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 12:11 PM, Tom H Childers wrote:

>
> You must have been running very low power. Laying any kind of
> ladder-line on a roof, insulated or not, is an excellent way to have
> a house fire that the insurance company will not pay for. Especialy a
> shake shingle roof.
>
> 73,
> Tom
> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
> ARRL Lifetime Member
> QCWA Lifetime Member
>
> [snip]
> 73,
> Tom
> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
> ARRL Lifetime Member
> QCWA Lifetime Member
>

John Marvin

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

I didn't see the original reply, but I just wanted to clear up one
misconception. Homeowner's insurance covers stupidity. Unless it can be
proved that you put that ladder line on the roof and ran high power
through it with the intention of burning the house down, you would be
covered.

73,
John
AC0ZG

On 7/4/2013 1:19 PM, Jim Bennett wrote:

> Yes. Yes I was. :-)
>
> On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 12:11 PM, Tom H Childers wrote:
>
>> You must have been running very low power. Laying any kind of
>> ladder-line on a roof, insulated or not, is an excellent way to have
>> a house fire that the insurance company will not pay for. Especialy a
>> shake shingle roof.
>>
>> 73,
>> Tom
>> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
>> ARRL Lifetime Member
>> QCWA Lifetime Member
>>
>> [snip]
>> 73,
>> Tom
>> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
>> ARRL Lifetime Member
>> QCWA Lifetime Member
>>
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Jim Bennett

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

Not sure I'm liking where this conversation is going. I answered the original poster's question as to whether a metal roof has been seen to adversely affect antenna performance, not advocate doing "stupid" things. My installation worked very well for me w/o running high power. I knew I WOULD be doing QRO after a new roof was installed and subsequently ran my feeder in an appropriate location.

Jim / W6JHB

On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 12:52 PM, John Marvin wrote:

> I didn't see the original reply, but I just wanted to clear up one misconception. Homeowner's insurance covers stupidity. Unless it can be proved that you put that ladder line on the roof and ran high power through it with the intention of burning the house down, you would be covered.
>
> 73,
> John
> AC0ZG
>
> On 7/4/2013 1:19 PM, Jim Bennett wrote:
>> Yes. Yes I was. :-)
>>
>> On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 12:11 PM, Tom H Childers wrote:
>>
>>> You must have been running very low power. Laying any kind of
>>> ladder-line on a roof, insulated or not, is an excellent way to have
>>> a house fire that the insurance company will not pay for. Especialy a
>>> shake shingle roof.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Tom
>>> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
>>> ARRL Lifetime Member
>>> QCWA Lifetime Member
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>> 73,
>>> Tom
>>> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
>>> ARRL Lifetime Member
>>> QCWA Lifetime Member
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Mike Harris-9

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

I run an Optibeam OB9-5 at about 42 feet on a tower only 10 feet away
from the corner of our single story house with metal roof.

It hasn't disadvantaged me any. I see a small change in SWR as the
larger elements of 20M and 17M swing over the roof.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO
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Kurt Cramer-2

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

In reply to this post by Mel

I had a summer Mobile home in Bisbee AZ. It had a large room added that also had a metal roof. A vertical for twenty meters mounted in the middle worked very well.
Kurt, W7QHD

> Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2013 11:06:25 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9

I ran some quick models of a tower at the corner of a house with
a metal roof in HFTA. The effects of the metal roof were modeled
by a plane (sloping) from the tower to the edge of the roof, a drop
from eave height to local ground height (set to flat for these
purposes) and then flat ground out five miles.

While there is some change, the effects are minor and would be lost
in the clutter of other terrain effects anyplace other than in the
middle of a vast open plain.

The biggest effect will be impedance changes as Mike noted - and they
should me minimal if the antenna is 10 meters/30 feet or more above
the roof level for 20 meters and and above. A low band wire will be
a different story as the effective height will be quite low.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 7/4/2013 5:05 PM, Mike Harris wrote:

> I run an Optibeam OB9-5 at about 42 feet on a tower only 10 feet away
> from the corner of our single story house with metal roof.
>
> It hasn't disadvantaged me any. I see a small change in SWR as the
> larger elements of 20M and 17M swing over the roof.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike VP8NO
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

In reply to this post by Jim Bennett

The original poster did not mention doing anything to his antenna or feed line. He just wondered if putting a new metal roof on his house would screw up his antenna. The answer, I think is probably not enough to notice, so go for it. A leaky roof is not a joy at all!

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ & Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart

________________________________
From: Jim Bennett <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 4, 2013 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

Not sure I'm liking where this conversation is going. I answered the original poster's question as to whether a metal roof has been seen to adversely affect antenna performance, not advocate doing "stupid" things. My installation worked very well for me w/o running high power. I knew I WOULD be doing QRO after a new roof was installed and subsequently ran my feeder in an appropriate location.

Jim / W6JHB

On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 12:52 PM, John Marvin wrote:

Bob KD7YZ

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

In reply to this post by VA3LX

On Thursday Taenzer used a Straight-Key to send:
-------------Original Comment-------

> We've been considering having a metal roof, but I'm wondering about the
> possible impact of the metal roof on the radiation pattern

I can tell you that my barn metal roof allows me to make about an hour
window to the WNW for 6m EME. I do not have Az/El rotator.

The 6M8GJ 8 element is about 30 feet above , and at the apex of, the
barn roof. The orientation of the barn is generally also WNW.

It's predictable, never fails and I have made a few EME contacts on 6m
looking that way towards moonset and an Elevation of about 28 degrees
and down.

--
Best regards,
Bob KD7YZ Win7-64bit + K3

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John Hendricks-2

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

Have used metal as a ground plane & it worked great. Metal sections must be well bonded together or rectification will result. The larger the better.

John Hendricks K7JLT

On Jul 4, 2013, at 16:16, KD7YZ Bob <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thursday Taenzer used a Straight-Key to send:
> -------------Original Comment-------
>
>> We've been considering having a metal roof, but I'm wondering about the
>> possible impact of the metal roof on the radiation pattern
>
> I can tell you that my barn metal roof allows me to make about an hour
> window to the WNW for 6m EME. I do not have Az/El rotator.
>
> The 6M8GJ 8 element is about 30 feet above , and at the apex of, the
> barn roof. The orientation of the barn is generally also WNW.
>
> It's predictable, never fails and I have made a few EME contacts on 6m
> looking that way towards moonset and an Elevation of about 28 degrees
> and down.
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Bob KD7YZ Win7-64bit + K3
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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John Marvin

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

In reply to this post by Jim Bennett

Sorry, that was not my intention. We all do "stupid" things. The
intention of my post was not to say that what you did was stupid. My
illustration particularly mentioned running high power, which you
already said you had not done, as an extreme to illustrate the point.
Insurance won't cover it if it is proved to be an intentional act, and
even intentional acts are covered for kids up to a certain age.

The intention was to clear up the misconception that if one of our homes
was damaged or destroyed by doing something that in hindsight might not
have been the wisest thing, insurance still would cover it. But I can
see that this discussion could turn off into a long discussion that has
nothing to do with Elecraft or ham radio, so it should probably die
right here.

73,

John
AC0ZG

On 7/4/2013 2:54 PM, Jim Bennett wrote:

> Not sure I'm liking where this conversation is going. I answered the original poster's question as to whether a metal roof has been seen to adversely affect antenna performance, not advocate doing "stupid" things. My installation worked very well for me w/o running high power. I knew I WOULD be doing QRO after a new roof was installed and subsequently ran my feeder in an appropriate location.
>
> Jim / W6JHB
>
> On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 12:52 PM, John Marvin wrote:
>
>> I didn't see the original reply, but I just wanted to clear up one misconception. Homeowner's insurance covers stupidity. Unless it can be proved that you put that ladder line on the roof and ran high power through it with the intention of burning the house down, you would be covered.
>>
>> 73,
>> John
>> AC0ZG
>>
>> On 7/4/2013 1:19 PM, Jim Bennett wrote:
>>> Yes. Yes I was. :-)
>>>
>>> On Thursday, Jul 4, 2013, at Thursday, 12:11 PM, Tom H Childers wrote:
>>>
>>>> You must have been running very low power. Laying any kind of
>>>> ladder-line on a roof, insulated or not, is an excellent way to have
>>>> a house fire that the insurance company will not pay for. Especialy a
>>>> shake shingle roof.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Tom
>>>> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
>>>> ARRL Lifetime Member
>>>> QCWA Lifetime Member
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>> 73,
>>>> Tom
>>>> Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
>>>> ARRL Lifetime Member
>>>> QCWA Lifetime Member
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Ignacy

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

In reply to this post by VA3LX

I had verticals on concrete, roof shingle and metal roofs. Always radials lying on top. The metal roof was the best by far.

One way to find out how much the roof is affecting the performance of a beam is to look at SWR changes as the antenna is rotating.

Ignacy, NO9E

alsopb

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

SWR is a pretty coarse indication of interaction. Interactions can
change directional antenna F/B and F/S ratio by 6-10 db easily (assuming
you have it in the first place) and hardly affect SWR.

At least, this is my experience from antenna modeling.

However, we have to live with the hands we're dealt. Without any field
strength measurements or calculations, one probably won't detect much.
Ignorance is bliss.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 7/5/2013 20:13, Ignacy wrote:

> I had verticals on concrete, roof shingle and metal roofs. Always radials
> lying on top. The metal roof was the best by far.
>
> One way to find out how much the roof is affecting the performance of a beam
> is to look at SWR changes as the antenna is rotating.
>
> Ignacy, NO9E
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/OT-anyone-have-experience-with-effects-of-metal-roofs-on-antenna-performace-tp7576265p7576322.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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george fritkin

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metal roofs on antenna performace?

I remember the toughest class was antenna theory. As an undergrad EE student, I believed that this class would kill my plan to be an EE. I got a 25 (out of 100)! No bragging, it was the highest grade. They graded on a curve. My prof was a world renown antenna expert. He liked to &@#* with us. So if anyone figures out this antenna stuff email me
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kevinr@coho.net

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metalroofs on antenna performace?

I was just reviewing my copy of Balanis and remembered the grueling
effort of the class. I took it in grad school with a crazy Greek
professor who worked with Balanis. He wound up being my thesis advisor :)
Kevin. KD5ONS

On 7/5/2013 1:54 PM, george fritkin wrote:

> I remember the toughest class was antenna theory. As an undergrad EE student, I believed that this class would kill my plan to be an EE. I got a 25 (out of 100)! No bragging, it was the highest grade. They graded on a curve. My prof was a world renown antenna expert. He liked to &@#* with us. So if anyone figures out this antenna stuff email me
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Phil Shepard

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metalroofs on antenna performace?

Ah, memories … I took an antenna class from Balanis, and we used photo copies of his fledgling book, acting as proofers. He was my senior EE project advisor as well. Quite a character. I wish I still remembered a fraction of what I knew then. Hi hi.

Phil, NS7P

On Jul 5, 2013, at 3:11 PM, kevinr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was just reviewing my copy of Balanis and remembered the grueling effort of the class. I took it in grad school with a crazy Greek professor who worked with Balanis. He wound up being my thesis advisor :)
> Kevin. KD5ONS
>
>
>
> On 7/5/2013 1:54 PM, george fritkin wrote:
>> I remember the toughest class was antenna theory. As an undergrad EE student, I believed that this class would kill my plan to be an EE. I got a 25 (out of 100)! No bragging, it was the highest grade. They graded on a curve. My prof was a world renown antenna expert. He liked to &@#* with us. So if anyone figures out this antenna stuff email me
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Paul Chebi

Re: OT - anyone have experience with effects of metalroofs on antenna performace?

This note is for the log/web manager.

I note that each time somebody comments on a thread ( the recent ones on metal roof), a new email is sent to all recipients. This is a nuisance cluttering the inbox.
My experience with blogs is all comments are retained on the server Under one heading, and an email is sent daily to anybody interested in that subject upon request.
Hope something could be done about that.

Paul Chebi
Kk4ptv

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 5, 2013, at 6:46 PM, Phil Shepard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ah, memories … I took an antenna class from Balanis, and we used photo copies of his fledgling book, acting as proofers. He was my senior EE project advisor as well. Quite a character. I wish I still remembered a fraction of what I knew then. Hi hi.
>
> Phil, NS7P
>
> On Jul 5, 2013, at 3:11 PM, kevinr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I was just reviewing my copy of Balanis and remembered the grueling effort of the class. I took it in grad school with a crazy Greek professor who worked with Balanis. He wound up being my thesis advisor :)
>> Kevin. KD5ONS
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/5/2013 1:54 PM, george fritkin wrote:
>>> I remember the toughest class was antenna theory. As an undergrad EE student, I believed that this class would kill my plan to be an EE. I got a 25 (out of 100)! No bragging, it was the highest grade. They graded on a curve. My prof was a world renown antenna expert. He liked to &@#* with us. So if anyone figures out this antenna stuff email me
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html