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(OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

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Robert 'RC' Conley

(OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

Guys;
I'm anticipating a move to a seniors villa and I know I will be unable to
to take my antenna farm and most of the ham shack. I've decided on my KX2
with ATU (grab-n go). A MAG LOOP should allow indoor operations at QRP
power levels.Thanks for your thoughts.
73
KC5WA

--
May You Live Long and Prosper....
what's life without a few dragons....
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

For those interested, the ARRL has a new book entitled "Ham Radio from
Indoors". It is a quick read with a lot of good ideas!

'73 de JIM N2ZZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
'RC' Conley
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2017 9:16 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

Guys;
I'm anticipating a move to a seniors villa and I know I will be unable to to
take my antenna farm and most of the ham shack. I've decided on my KX2 with
ATU (grab-n go). A MAG LOOP should allow indoor operations at QRP power
levels.Thanks for your thoughts.
73
KC5WA

--
May You Live Long and Prosper....
what's life without a few dragons....
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k6dgw

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

In reply to this post by Robert 'RC' Conley

I'm not sure about a mag loop inside a room, I've never tried mine that
way. When used vertically outside, they tend to be insensitive to
surroundings [trees, ground, you sitting under it] because the
permeability of most such surroundings is 1. This may not be true if
you're set up on the track of a railroad yard ... or if there's a lot of
ferromagnetic material in your walls.

If you try it, be aware of several things:

1. Small magnetic loops involve some very high voltages and circulating
currents, even at surprisingly low powers. AA5TB has an on-line
calculator and there is a similar one at
http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/small_tx_loop_calc.aspx

2. The equivalent radiation resistance of small loops is
extraordinarily low -- in the milliohms range. Your power will be split
between the radiation resistance and the RF resistance of the
conductors, which is higher than the DC resistance because of the skin
effect. You really need to achieve the lowest possible RF resistance
[high conductor surface area].

3. Mag loops are resonant transformers or autotransformers. To radiate
at all, they MUST be exactly resonant at your TX frequency. "Getting
close and letting the ATU match it" will create a fairly effective dummy
load. Bypass the ATU and tune the loop for exact resonance.

4. The usable bandwidth will be very low [i.e. you need to re-resonate
the loop when you QSY, even a little]. As the circumference of the loop
becomes smaller in relation to the wavelength [i.e. on lower frequencies
for a fixed size loop], the BW can become smaller than the occupied BW
of a SSB signal.

Commercial mag loops [e.g. my Alexloop] are usable from 40 up. Tuning it
on 40 is really touchy. It's easier on 20 and up. They tend to run in
the $400 range. You can build one much cheaper, but remember #2 above.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/22/2017 6:16 AM, Robert 'RC' Conley wrote:
> Guys;
> I'm anticipating a move to a seniors villa and I know I will be unable to
> to take my antenna farm and most of the ham shack. I've decided on my KX2
> with ATU (grab-n go). A MAG LOOP should allow indoor operations at QRP
> power levels.Thanks for your thoughts.
> 73
> KC5WA
>

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wayne burdick

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

Administrator

In reply to this post by Robert 'RC' Conley

I'm with you, Ron. I've put up pretty effective invisible wires everywhere I've lived, one way or the other, without retribution. If anyone needs help with this within driving distance to Belmont, CA, I'm your guy. I'll do it for the fun of it, and maybe a glass of wine afterward.

Wayne
N6KR

On Jan 22, 2017, at 4:49 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Over the years I've done a fair bit of operating from inside apartments. My
> tactic was to get as much wire up as high as possible while still being
> unobtrusive. I was running 10 watts or less, CW.
>
> In one location I had a tree about 20 feet away from a window at my
> operating desk. I slipped a fine wire out of the window (so I could still
> close it) and hooked it to some fishing line leader which I then tossed into
> the tree, succeeding in getting it about 20 feet above the ground. It was
> not visible and survived some surprising winds. Worked it against a
> counterpoise made from fine white wire held along the (apartment white) wall
> with pushpins.
>
> Where I had a 2nd (top) floor unit, I had good success with a thin white
> wire 'doublet' tacked onto the wall near the ceiling with the two halves
> running as nearly in opposite directions as possible I was able to get about
> 50 feet of wire up that way and made a lot of contacts including some DX. Of
> course being indoors brings you closer to all sources of noise and,
> depending upon the construction of the building a certain amount of
> "shielding".
>
> One apartment building had a flat roof. The manager okayed me installing a
> simple antenna on the roof. It never hurts to ask. In another top floor
> location I discovered I had an attic access door in one closet, so I
> installed a "doublet" in the attic just under the roof rafters. Got a full
> half wave on 40 in that space with a bend in each half. The "feeder" was
> open wire - thin white wires that passed through two tiny holes in the
> ceiling next to the wall at my operating position and down to the rig. It
> worked beautifully on 40 through 10 meters. On that one when I moved I never
> got into the attic space to remove the antenna, insulators, etc. I just cut
> the feeder at the ceiling and filled the tiny holes. Eventually someone
> needing to do work in the attic probably scratched their head wondering what
> that was - unless they were a Ham.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
> 'RC' Conley
> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2017 6:16 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS
>
> Guys;
> I'm anticipating a move to a seniors villa and I know I will be unable to to
> take my antenna farm and most of the ham shack. I've decided on my KX2 with
> ATU (grab-n go). A MAG LOOP should allow indoor operations at QRP power
> levels.Thanks for your thoughts.
> 73
> KC5WA
>
> --
> May You Live Long and Prosper....
> what's life without a few dragons....
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
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Vic Rosenthal

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

In reply to this post by Robert 'RC' Conley

I agree with Ron that the best solution is wire outdoors. I too lived in apartments and did similar things. Best results always seemed to come from some sort of balanced antenna when possible. Nowadays there are so many noise sources in buildings that getting a wire outside is worth the struggle. Indoors, you are within the loop of the AC lines, Ethernet cables, etc. Try to get out of the loop and use a balun to decouple the outside of the feed line if it's coax.
Small wire like no. 20 enameled wire can be almost invisible from a few feet away.
Another possibility is a temporary antenna. You can make a little stand for a mag loop and place it outdoors to operate and then bring it inside when you are done.
I have a little game I play whenever I visit a new place. I ask myself "how would I put up an antenna if I lived here?" My wife is used to my walking around looking at trees, etc.

Vic 4X6GP

> On 23 Jan 2017, at 02:49, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Over the years I've done a fair bit of operating from inside apartments. My
> tactic was to get as much wire up as high as possible while still being
> unobtrusive. I was running 10 watts or less, CW.
>
> In one location I had a tree about 20 feet away from a window at my
> operating desk. I slipped a fine wire out of the window (so I could still
> close it) and hooked it to some fishing line leader which I then tossed into
> the tree, succeeding in getting it about 20 feet above the ground. It was
> not visible and survived some surprising winds. Worked it against a
> counterpoise made from fine white wire held along the (apartment white) wall
> with pushpins.
>
> Where I had a 2nd (top) floor unit, I had good success with a thin white
> wire 'doublet' tacked onto the wall near the ceiling with the two halves
> running as nearly in opposite directions as possible I was able to get about
> 50 feet of wire up that way and made a lot of contacts including some DX. Of
> course being indoors brings you closer to all sources of noise and,
> depending upon the construction of the building a certain amount of
> "shielding".
>
> One apartment building had a flat roof. The manager okayed me installing a
> simple antenna on the roof. It never hurts to ask. In another top floor
> location I discovered I had an attic access door in one closet, so I
> installed a "doublet" in the attic just under the roof rafters. Got a full
> half wave on 40 in that space with a bend in each half. The "feeder" was
> open wire - thin white wires that passed through two tiny holes in the
> ceiling next to the wall at my operating position and down to the rig. It
> worked beautifully on 40 through 10 meters. On that one when I moved I never
> got into the attic space to remove the antenna, insulators, etc. I just cut
> the feeder at the ceiling and filled the tiny holes. Eventually someone
> needing to do work in the attic probably scratched their head wondering what
> that was - unless they were a Ham.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert
> 'RC' Conley
> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2017 6:16 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS
>
> Guys;
> I'm anticipating a move to a seniors villa and I know I will be unable to to
> take my antenna farm and most of the ham shack. I've decided on my KX2 with
> ATU (grab-n go). A MAG LOOP should allow indoor operations at QRP power
> levels.Thanks for your thoughts.
> 73
> KC5WA
>
> --
> May You Live Long and Prosper....
> what's life without a few dragons....

Doug Turnbull

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Fred,
Well put and useful. I can though testify that the AlexLoop can work
amazingly well from inside a frame house and even a stone house as I have
tried this. It also works wonderfully from a hotel balcony; though I
understand these are less common in W land for unfortunate reasons. Keep
the magnetic loop off furniture with metal springs inside.

The AlexLoop or Magnetic Loop is my antenna of choice for travel as it is
so unobtrusive and yet amazingly can work. This sounds like snake oil so
perhaps I am over enthusiastic. I have used the AlexLoop in a part time
effort for a WPX contest. Operation was from Connecticut with the antenna
inside my sisters house using KC1AV as my call. I worked 270 some Qs with
a good 30% of these being with Europe. My power was 5 or 10 Watts -
memory fails me on this point.

I have at times found the AlexLoop out perform a Buddipole at full 1/4
wave length for twenty meters with two radials. How this could be well I
can not answer. I am suspicious. At night it is surely easier to retune
the antenna when changing bands than having to go outside and change the
length of the antenna and its radials. The AlexLoop capacitor is within
arm's reach.

When possible for portable operation though I prefer an end fed dipole
but this only works when staying with understanding friends or family.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred
Jensen
Sent: 22 January 2017 22:50
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

I'm not sure about a mag loop inside a room, I've never tried mine that
way. When used vertically outside, they tend to be insensitive to
surroundings [trees, ground, you sitting under it] because the
permeability of most such surroundings is 1. This may not be true if
you're set up on the track of a railroad yard ... or if there's a lot of
ferromagnetic material in your walls.

If you try it, be aware of several things:

1. Small magnetic loops involve some very high voltages and circulating
currents, even at surprisingly low powers. AA5TB has an on-line
calculator and there is a similar one at
http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/small_tx_loop_calc.aspx

2. The equivalent radiation resistance of small loops is
extraordinarily low -- in the milliohms range. Your power will be split
between the radiation resistance and the RF resistance of the
conductors, which is higher than the DC resistance because of the skin
effect. You really need to achieve the lowest possible RF resistance
[high conductor surface area].

3. Mag loops are resonant transformers or autotransformers. To radiate
at all, they MUST be exactly resonant at your TX frequency. "Getting
close and letting the ATU match it" will create a fairly effective dummy
load. Bypass the ATU and tune the loop for exact resonance.

4. The usable bandwidth will be very low [i.e. you need to re-resonate
the loop when you QSY, even a little]. As the circumference of the loop
becomes smaller in relation to the wavelength [i.e. on lower frequencies
for a fixed size loop], the BW can become smaller than the occupied BW
of a SSB signal.

Commercial mag loops [e.g. my Alexloop] are usable from 40 up. Tuning it
on 40 is really touchy. It's easier on 20 and up. They tend to run in
the $400 range. You can build one much cheaper, but remember #2 above.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/22/2017 6:16 AM, Robert 'RC' Conley wrote:
> Guys;
> I'm anticipating a move to a seniors villa and I know I will be unable to
> to take my antenna farm and most of the ham shack. I've decided on my KX2
> with ATU (grab-n go). A MAG LOOP should allow indoor operations at QRP
> power levels.Thanks for your thoughts.
> 73
> KC5WA
>

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k6dgw

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

Good to know. I've never tried my Alexloop inside the house, but for an
all-round portable antenna it meets the requirements of size, ease of
set-up/take-down, and working well at QRP-ish power levels. The tuning
problem is mitigated by the fact that I usually sit directly under it
when it's mounted on the tripod and I can just reach up and adjust it.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/23/2017 5:21 AM, Doug Turnbull wrote:
> Fred,
> Well put and useful. I can though testify that the AlexLoop can work
> amazingly well from inside a frame house and even a stone house as I have
> tried this.

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kevino z

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

I just wish Alex would release the motor to control the tuning...
-Kevin (KK4YEL)

-----
The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.

On Jan 23, 2017, at 14:13, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

Good to know. I've never tried my Alexloop inside the house, but for an all-round portable antenna it meets the requirements of size, ease of set-up/take-down, and working well at QRP-ish power levels. The tuning problem is mitigated by the fact that I usually sit directly under it when it's mounted on the tripod and I can just reach up and adjust it.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/23/2017 5:21 AM, Doug Turnbull wrote:
Fred,
Well put and useful. I can though testify that the AlexLoop can work
amazingly well from inside a frame house and even a stone house as I have
tried this.

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k6dgw

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

Many years ago, when computers filled buildings, consumed a megawatt or
two, and the IBM CEO forecast a world-wide market for them of maybe six,
ten tops ... automatic antenna matching, particularly in HF mobile
environments, was sometimes achieved by sampling the voltage and current
at the feed point and driving a motor on the matching unit's capacitor
shaft to make the phase difference zero [i.e. resonance]. Should be
able to do that with a mag loop today in a much smaller package.

I do wish Alex had put a 10:1 drive on the capacitor shaft however.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 1/23/2017 11:16 AM, kevino z wrote:

> I just wish Alex would release the motor to control the tuning...
> -Kevin (KK4YEL)
>
>
> -----
> The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of
> doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.
>
> On Jan 23, 2017, at 14:13, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>> Good to know. I've never tried my Alexloop inside the house, but for
>> an all-round portable antenna it meets the requirements of size, ease
>> of set-up/take-down, and working well at QRP-ish power levels. The
>> tuning problem is mitigated by the fact that I usually sit directly
>> under it when it's mounted on the tripod and I can just reach up and
>> adjust it.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>>
>>
>> On 1/23/2017 5:21 AM, Doug Turnbull wrote:
>>> Fred,
>>> Well put and useful. I can though testify that the AlexLoop
>>> can work
>>> amazingly well from inside a frame house and even a stone house as I
>>> have
>>> tried this.
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>

KENT TRIMBLE

MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

In reply to this post by k6dgw

The Alex Loop is rated at 20 watts PEP maximum.

Even at 5 watts, I position mine as far away from my body as I can.

The jury is still out, in my opinion, as to how RF affects the human
body, especially the brain.

73,

Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
Jefferson City, MO

On 1/23/2017 1:11 PM, someone wrote:
> The tuning problem is mitigated by the fact that I usually sit
> directly under it when it's mounted on the tripod and I can just reach
> up and adjust it.
>

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kw9e

Re: MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

Yeah I often smell baked ham when using my KPA500.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 23, 2017, at 3:21 PM, KENT TRIMBLE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The Alex Loop is rated at 20 watts PEP maximum.
>
> Even at 5 watts, I position mine as far away from my body as I can.
>
> The jury is still out, in my opinion, as to how RF affects the human body, especially the brain.
>
> 73,
>
> Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
> Jefferson City, MO
>
>
>
>> On 1/23/2017 1:11 PM, someone wrote:
>> The tuning problem is mitigated by the fact that I usually sit directly under it when it's mounted on the tripod and I can just reach up and adjust it.
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

<Fill in your own jokes here....>

On 1/23/2017 1:52 PM, Peter LaBissoniere wrote:
> The jury is still out, in my opinion, as to how RF affects the human body, especially the brain.

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JEAN-FRANCOIS

Re: (OT redoux) MAG LOOP ANTENNAS

In reply to this post by Robert 'RC' Conley

Hi,

I already used the Alexloop inside my house a few years ago. I was using at that time a FT-897D running at 5W on battery on 20m…. And I did many contacts using PSK31 and JT-65. I was really fun to see how it was possible to even do contacts inside the house…. At least, to experiment mode without going outside during the winter season. Hi Hiiiiiiiiii ‼️🎉

73 de Jeff | VA2SS

__________________________________________
Jeff | VA2SS
Jean-François Ménard

[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
www.VA2SS.com<http://www.VA2SS.com>

Membre de / Member of :
ARRL / AMSAT / QRP ARCI / FISTS / SKCC / MICHIGAN QRP CLUB

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Message sent from my portable device.

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