Elecraft

Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

Classic

List

Threaded

13 messages Options

briancom

Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

Guys,

I wonder if anybody else noticed this. I'm wondering if there is an
explanation.

Picked up a high S/N K3 which has new syntheizers installed. It also
has the TCXO installed. No ref lock board.

Looked at the pitch vs time from a Rb locked signal generator at 10 MHz.

I see sawtooth variations in pitch of about 0.15 Hz peak-to-peak with
periods of about 30-45 seconds.

Anybody else notice this?

These variations do not show up when the identical experiment is
performed using a TS-480 with high stability oscillator. Rather all
variations are smooth. They did not show up on an older K3 with the old
synthesizer boards.

Yes the variations are small but the discontinuous nature is of some
concern.

73 de Brian/K3KO
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

Hi Brian,

I believe I am seeing the same thinghere... I used to use a program
called Dopplergram. Dopplergram graphs audio vs time, and is used to
look for very, very, small changes in frequency. By small, I mean on
the order you are describing... A few tenths of hz.

In the past, I used it to watch Ionospheric movement changes, via
Doppler changes.

Using the old and the new synth, (actually using the K3 at all), makes
this now seems impossible, and I have given up on it.

I have mentioned it here a few times, and there seems to be no
resolution. I asked if the external reference wold correct this, and
the consensus was-- no it would not. Sorry to say, this appears to be
one case where the K3 seems to totally fail at the task.

The sawtooth steps as the K3 corrects for drift, (or whatever it is
doing), destroy the look of my ionospheric Doppler graphs.

I will probably just get a different rig, and use it for Dopplergrams,
while keeping the K3 for normal use.

If you ever do figure out a fix for this, PLEASE let me know.

--
73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)

For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info

For SSTV help see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sat, 2016-03-05 at 13:43 +0000, brian wrote:

> Guys,
>
> I wonder if anybody else noticed this.  I'm wondering if there is an
> explanation.
>
> Picked up a high S/N K3 which has new syntheizers installed.  It
> also
> has the TCXO installed.  No ref lock board.
>
> Looked at the pitch vs time from a Rb locked signal generator at 10
> MHz.
>
> I see sawtooth variations in pitch of about 0.15 Hz peak-to-peak
> with
> periods of about 30-45 seconds.
>
> Anybody else notice this?
>
> These variations do not show up when the identical experiment is
> performed using a TS-480 with high stability oscillator.  Rather all
> variations are smooth.  They did not show up on an older K3 with the
> old
> synthesizer boards.
>
> Yes the variations are small but the discontinuous nature is of some
> concern.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

In reply to this post by briancom

The assumption would be that because it did not behave like your TS 480, it
was defective, the TS 480 being a superior benchmark? :>)

This was reported very early on with the new synthesizers and seems to have
no effect other than an emotional response in the observer. It is involved
with collection of design issues and solutions stirred up by the decision
to support very high speed QRQ QSK and the needed exceptionally short
RX/TX/TX transition times.

It also is a better method of regulation as the settling point is not off
to one side due to being "pulled" by some moving condition in the circuit
specifics until the detection threshold is reached. It is always being
tested for higher than and lower than. There is no detection threshold
bias.

Those who are into precise measurements can measure either side of this
very faint sawtooth and average them, knowing that both the high side and
low side limits have been tested by the +/- 0.07 Hz swing and the sweet
number is in the middle, without any state detection bias.

73, Guy K2AV

On Saturday, March 5, 2016, brian <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Guys,
>
> I wonder if anybody else noticed this. I'm wondering if there is an
> explanation.
>
> Picked up a high S/N K3 which has new syntheizers installed. It also has
> the TCXO installed. No ref lock board.
>
> Looked at the pitch vs time from a Rb locked signal generator at 10 MHz.
>
> I see sawtooth variations in pitch of about 0.15 Hz peak-to-peak with
> periods of about 30-45 seconds.
>
> Anybody else notice this?
>
> These variations do not show up when the identical experiment is performed
> using a TS-480 with high stability oscillator. Rather all variations are
> smooth. They did not show up on an older K3 with the old synthesizer
> boards.
>
> Yes the variations are small but the discontinuous nature is of some
> concern.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

--
Sent via Gmail Mobile on my iPhone
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Grant Youngman

Re: Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

In reply to this post by NK7Z

This behavior has been discussed quite a few times on the reflector — you night do a search on the archives. The frequency correction scheme contributes to the excellent phase noise performance of the radio.

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342

> On Mar 5, 2016, at 7:57 AM, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> I believe I am seeing the same thinghere... I used to use a program
> called Dopplergram. Dopplergram graphs audio vs time, and is used to
> look for very, very, small changes in frequency. By small, I mean on
> the order you are describing... A few tenths of hz.
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

NK7Z

Re: Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

These two statements seem to contradict each other...
--
73's, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)

For software/hardware reviews see:
http://www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info

For SSTV help see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Sat, 2016-03-05 at 09:26 -0500, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> This was reported very early on with the new synthesizers and seems
> to have no effect other than an emotional response in the observer.

> Those who are into precise measurements can measure either side of
> this very faint sawtooth and average them, knowing that both the high
> side and low side limits have been tested by the +/- 0.07 Hz swing
> and the sweet number is in the middle, without any state detection
> bias.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Wes (N7WS)

Re: Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

In reply to this post by briancom

When I get time I'll have to look at this. I have an old K3 with the original
synthesizer and no TCXO and a new K3S with a TCXO.

I also now have a GPSDO. After getting this, I checked the K3S and was not
thrilled to see that the TCXO required a 20 Hz adjustment.

Wes N7WS

On 3/5/2016 6:43 AM, brian wrote:

> Guys,
>
> I wonder if anybody else noticed this. I'm wondering if there is an explanation.
>
> Picked up a high S/N K3 which has new syntheizers installed. It also has the
> TCXO installed. No ref lock board.
>
> Looked at the pitch vs time from a Rb locked signal generator at 10 MHz.
>
> I see sawtooth variations in pitch of about 0.15 Hz peak-to-peak with periods
> of about 30-45 seconds.
>
> Anybody else notice this?
>
> These variations do not show up when the identical experiment is performed
> using a TS-480 with high stability oscillator. Rather all variations are
> smooth. They did not show up on an older K3 with the old synthesizer boards.
>
> Yes the variations are small but the discontinuous nature is of some concern.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO

Grant Youngman

Re: Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

20 Hz is well within the +/- 1 ppm (or the “typical +/- 0.5 ppm) spec of the TCXO ...

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342

> On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:13 AM, Wes (N7WS) <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> When I get time I'll have to look at this. I have an old K3 with the original synthesizer and no TCXO and a new K3S with a TCXO.
>
> I also now have a GPSDO. After getting this, I checked the K3S and was not thrilled to see that the TCXO required a 20 Hz adjustment.
>
> Wes N7WS
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Clay Autery

Re: Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

Technically, whether the 20 Hz correction is within spec depends upon
the frequency where the measurement was taken...

At 20 MHz, the 20 Hz correction is AT the spec limit.

Above 20 MHz, the correction would be WITHIN the spec.

Anything BELOW 20 MHz, a 20 Hz correction is OUTSIDE the spec.

Have an awesome day! Back to building...

On 3/5/2016 11:57 AM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:
> 20 Hz is well within the +/- 1 ppm (or the “typical +/- 0.5 ppm) spec of the TCXO ...
>
> Grant NQ5T
> K3 #2091, KX3 #8342

______________________
Clay Autery, KG5LKV
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Grant Youngman

Re: Oddity in K3 with new synthesizer

I think the spec is relative to the TCXO frequency, which is nominally 49.380 MHz, NOT the dial frequency. I'd happy to be corrected ...

So 20 Hz against the TCXO nominal is quite within spec.

Grant NQ5T

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 5, 2016, at 2:18 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Technically, whether the 20 Hz correction is within spec depends upon
> the frequency where the measurement was taken...
>
> At 20 MHz, the 20 Hz correction is AT the spec limit.
>
> Above 20 MHz, the correction would be WITHIN the spec.
>
> Anything BELOW 20 MHz, a 20 Hz correction is OUTSIDE the spec.
>
> Have an awesome day! Back to building...
>
>
>> On 3/5/2016 11:57 AM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:
>> 20 Hz is well within the +/- 1 ppm (or the “typical +/- 0.5 ppm) spec of the TCXO ...
>>
>> Grant NQ5T
>> K3 #2091, KX3 #8342
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KG5LKV
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Clay Autery

Antenna Connectors completed!

Not to open a can-o-worms again, but just closing the loop here. A while
back, I asked for help IDing the pins used on the pigtails soldered to
the ANT1 & ANT 2 panel connectors.

Well, I finally got my hands on some new ones, AND I have ID'd the EXACT
part number should I ever need it again. I took a break from building
my delta loop's third support tilt-base for about an hour today and
finally built up the new N-connector panel mounts with pigtails.
Now, I can put the OEM Elecraft parts away UN-molested and have them
readily available should I ever need them.

Here's a link to a pic with my newly constructed assemblies in the front
and the OEM assemblies in the back:

*http://montac.com/images/antenna/UHF_2_N.jpg* (2.15 MB file)*
*
_Notes on construction:_
N-Connector, panel mount - Pasternack Part# PE45085
Wire: 18 AWG, Mil-Spec, AG-Plated, Stranded Cu, BLACK, Teflon Jacket
Pin: MILL-MAX 3231 PCB pin
Solder: Pb/Sn/Ag/Cu (4% silver)

Soldered using high temp, broad tip for fast heat, minimum dwell.
After fully cooling, cleaned well with 99.9% Iso. Alcohol, dried.
Resistance check done and measures below instruments resolution at zero.
Exposed areas of wire/solder covered with 2-coats of conformal coating
to prevent oxidation.

Connectors installed and radio re-assembled. (Note: PA must be removed
and shield unfastened and moved a bit to remove KAT3A board to allow OE
connector removal. Installation is reverse of removal.) Silver plated
wire is stiffer than the OE wire and requires some gentle shaping to
line the pins up with the receptacles on the KAT3A board.

That's it... Back to finishing up my over-engineered tilt-base and
telescoping, free-standing (mostly) 40' mast. I'll post some pics of
that later if anyone is interested.

Have a good evening!

______________________
Clay Autery, KG5LKV
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Nr4c

Re: Antenna Connectors completed!

Link doesn't work for me.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Mar 6, 2016, at 12:03 AM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not to open a can-o-worms again, but just closing the loop here. A while
> back, I asked for help IDing the pins used on the pigtails soldered to
> the ANT1 & ANT 2 panel connectors.
>
> Well, I finally got my hands on some new ones, AND I have ID'd the EXACT
> part number should I ever need it again. I took a break from building
> my delta loop's third support tilt-base for about an hour today and
> finally built up the new N-connector panel mounts with pigtails.
> Now, I can put the OEM Elecraft parts away UN-molested and have them
> readily available should I ever need them.
>
> Here's a link to a pic with my newly constructed assemblies in the front
> and the OEM assemblies in the back:
>
> *http://montac.com/images/antenna/UHF_2_N.jpg* (2.15 MB file)*
> *
> _Notes on construction:_
> N-Connector, panel mount - Pasternack Part# PE45085
> Wire: 18 AWG, Mil-Spec, AG-Plated, Stranded Cu, BLACK, Teflon Jacket
> Pin: MILL-MAX 3231 PCB pin
> Solder: Pb/Sn/Ag/Cu (4% silver)
>
> Soldered using high temp, broad tip for fast heat, minimum dwell.
> After fully cooling, cleaned well with 99.9% Iso. Alcohol, dried.
> Resistance check done and measures below instruments resolution at zero.
> Exposed areas of wire/solder covered with 2-coats of conformal coating
> to prevent oxidation.
>
> Connectors installed and radio re-assembled. (Note: PA must be removed
> and shield unfastened and moved a bit to remove KAT3A board to allow OE
> connector removal. Installation is reverse of removal.) Silver plated
> wire is stiffer than the OE wire and requires some gentle shaping to
> line the pins up with the receptacles on the KAT3A board.
>
> That's it... Back to finishing up my over-engineered tilt-base and
> telescoping, free-standing (mostly) 40' mast. I'll post some pics of
> that later if anyone is interested.
>
> Have a good evening!
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KG5LKV
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

W Paul Mills

Re: Antenna Connectors completed!

Try this, worked for me <http://montac.com/images/antenna/UHF_2_N.jpg>

On 03/05/2016 11:57 PM, Nr4c wrote:

> Link doesn't work for me.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ...nr4c. bill
>
>
>> On Mar 6, 2016, at 12:03 AM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Not to open a can-o-worms again, but just closing the loop here. A while
>> back, I asked for help IDing the pins used on the pigtails soldered to
>> the ANT1 & ANT 2 panel connectors.
>>
>> Well, I finally got my hands on some new ones, AND I have ID'd the EXACT
>> part number should I ever need it again. I took a break from building
>> my delta loop's third support tilt-base for about an hour today and
>> finally built up the new N-connector panel mounts with pigtails.
>> Now, I can put the OEM Elecraft parts away UN-molested and have them
>> readily available should I ever need them.
>>
>> Here's a link to a pic with my newly constructed assemblies in the front
>> and the OEM assemblies in the back:
>>
>> *http://montac.com/images/antenna/UHF_2_N.jpg* (2.15 MB file)*
>> *
>> _Notes on construction:_
>> N-Connector, panel mount - Pasternack Part# PE45085
>> Wire: 18 AWG, Mil-Spec, AG-Plated, Stranded Cu, BLACK, Teflon Jacket
>> Pin: MILL-MAX 3231 PCB pin
>> Solder: Pb/Sn/Ag/Cu (4% silver)
>>
>> Soldered using high temp, broad tip for fast heat, minimum dwell.
>> After fully cooling, cleaned well with 99.9% Iso. Alcohol, dried.
>> Resistance check done and measures below instruments resolution at zero.
>> Exposed areas of wire/solder covered with 2-coats of conformal coating
>> to prevent oxidation.
>>
>> Connectors installed and radio re-assembled. (Note: PA must be removed
>> and shield unfastened and moved a bit to remove KAT3A board to allow OE
>> connector removal. Installation is reverse of removal.) Silver plated
>> wire is stiffer than the OE wire and requires some gentle shaping to
>> line the pins up with the receptacles on the KAT3A board.
>>
>> That's it... Back to finishing up my over-engineered tilt-base and
>> telescoping, free-standing (mostly) 40' mast. I'll post some pics of
>> that later if anyone is interested.
>>
>> Have a good evening!
>>
>> ______________________
>> Clay Autery, KG5LKV
>> MONTAC Enterprises
>> (318) 518-1389
>>

--
/*************************************************
* Amateur Radio Station AC0HY *
* W. Paul Mills SN807 *
* Assistant EC Alpha-1 ARES Shawnee/Wabunsee, KS *
* President Kaw Valley Amateur Radio Club *
*************************************************/
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Clay Autery

Re: Antenna Connectors completed!

Thanks... don't know why my link didn't come through live... you have
to copy/paste all between the asterisks... Or use the active link Paul
was able to post.

______________________
Clay Autery, KG5LKV
(318) 518-1389

On 3/6/2016 12:08 AM, W Paul Mills wrote:
> Try this, worked for me <http://montac.com/images/antenna/UHF_2_N.jpg>
>
> On 03/05/2016 11:57 PM, Nr4c wrote:
>> Link doesn't work for me.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ...nr4c. bill
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]