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Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

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AC7AC

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

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Rick Dettinger-3

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

In reply to this post by David Cutter

>
> "The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's
> knob. "
>
> I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that
> the key
> is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the
> desk, except
> perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up
> straight
> and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The
> telegraphers of
> old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one
> once.
>
> 73
>
> David
> G3UNA
>>

That is the difference between the American and British systems. As I
understand it, the British used this method, as I do, to avoid a
"glass arm". The Americans invented the bug for the same reason. I
also use a bug. During WW2, Australian operators, accustomed to the
British method, were frustrated when serving on American military
aircraft, because the key was screwed to the rear of the operating
table.

The following is from Chapter 9, Part II of "The Art and Skill of
Radio-Telegraphy" by William G. Pierpont, N0HFF, (SK):

As the beginners progress, they adapt their keying style to whatever
is comfortable to them
individually. There are many variations in adjustment, depending on
the particular key design
details and the operator's preferences. The Australians and New
Zealanders appear to have
followed the British practice, but other European countries have not
necessarily done so.
Australians have said they found it very hard to send properly with
the American keys -- with
their flat topped key-knobs, located far back from the edge of the
table -- as installed in air-
ground-air stations during WW-II. They called these keying
arrangements "a flaming nuisance!"
In summary, with all these variations in basic and detail design, it
seems obvious that there must
be more than one way to design a good key and use it.

This entire book is available for free download, and can be linked
from here:

http://www.qsl.net/n9bor/n0hff.htm

73,

Rick Dettinger K7MW

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Kevin Rock

Re: Off-Topic: CW sending vs. receiving speed

In reply to this post by Tom Hammond-2

QRQ ?

:)

Kevin. KD5ONS

-----Original Message-----

>From: Tom Hammond <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Aug 7, 2009 6:45 PM
>To: dw <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic: CW sending vs. receiving speed
>
>Hi Duane:
>
>>Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
>>their copy speed?
>>
>>I can't help but assume this, and so when I call CQ and get a return
>>caller sending at half the speed which I called or sending extreme
>>farnsworth, I almost always lower my speed in order to be considerate.
>
>In general, yes. One should assume that if a station calls "CQ" at x-WPM,
>he is soliciting a reply at or near that speed.
>
>Likewise if you call "CQ" at 20 WPM you would normally expect to get a
>reply at somewhere around that speed.
>
>However... there are those (and I currently have one in my Advanced CW class)
>who can readily copy 20-22 WPM, but who are still learning to send 'clean' CW
>with a keyer, BUT they can send decent 13 WPM CW with a straight key.
>
>I ALWAYS try to match my speed to that of the other guy, regardless of his
>sending speed. Sometimes that means that we have a 45-minute 15 WPM QSO,
>only to find at the 45th minute that he actually can send/copy 50 WPM and
>for some odd reason he just chose to send 15 WPM when he answered my CQ...
>So we just had a QRS QSO when we could have held it at a much higher speed
>which would have still suited both of us... <G>
>
>IF you have any reason to believe that the other guy can send/receive at a
>higher speed, you can always ASK him if he's able to send/copy faster.
>I also have (several) students who can send (decent CQ) at a speed faster
>than they can copy. They won't speed up their sending unless asked to do so
>and if asked, they tell the other guy to please NOT increase his speed to them
>faster than they can copy (but 'pressing' their copy is good for them, to
>some extent).
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>73,
>
>Tom Hammond N0SS
>
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AC7AC

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

In reply to this post by Rick Dettinger-3

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dave.wilburn

Re: Off-Topic: CW sending vs. receiving speed

In reply to this post by AC7AC

I fully agree. I'm fairly new (in comparison) at this. My sweet spot 18 wpm. If the speed creeps up and we wander from the basics, I get in trouble quick.

Luckily I can't yet send much faster than I can receive.

73

David Wilburn
NM4M
------Original Message------
From: Ricky Robbins
Sender: [hidden email]
To: Elecraft_List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic: CW sending vs. receiving speed
Sent: Aug 7, 2009 13:50

> Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
> their copy speed?

Well, it's *logical* - that just doesn't always mean it's true. :)

After a long period of inactivity, my copy speed right now is about 10
wpm, but I can send considerably faster and I have to keep reminding
myself to send at about 10 wpm to avoid getting it sent back to me at
a faster speed than I can copy.

I can copy faster than 10 wpm when receiving the standard RST, Name,
QTH, Rig, etc., but if you start telling me about your late
grandmother's bursitis woes or the cabbage worm grief in your garden I
probably won't be able to keep up.

The problem is when I'm sending with a straight key I tend to creep up
in speed without realizing it, get it back at the faster speed, and
then cut QSO's short because I always feel it's impolite to ask the
other fellow to QRS when *I'm* the one who sped us up in the first
place.

The aforementioned ticks me off (at myself), because I'm a ragchewer
and when we move off of the formula and get into cabbage & grandmas is
when I start getting more interested in the di-dahversation.

I keep thinking the speed will come back, but I don't think it's
coming back at the rate it came originally some thirty years ago.

Rick
N4YQP
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4X4KF

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

In reply to this post by David Cutter

Aumein!!!!!
4x4kf
Michael

David Cutter wrote:

>"The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. "
>
>I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the key
>is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk, except
>perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight
>and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers of
>old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once.
>
>73
>
>David
>G3UNA
>
>
>
>
>
>>If you have trouble holding a steady sending speed
>>try tapping a heel or toe, as if you are a musician.
>>
>>And, the should-be-obvious .... -don't- lay your arm
>>on the desk and only use your wrist to send. The
>>elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on
>>the key's knob. The wrist acts as a "spring" or
>>"damper".
>>
>>73! Ken - K0PP
>>
>>
>
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>
>
>
>

--
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dave.wilburn

Re: Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

In reply to this post by .k8dd.-2

Your inability to perceive the problem is (likely) directly proportional to the years you have been doing code. ;)

I did code mobile for the first time recently. Coming back from dropping my son off at Camp Lejeune. It was the New Eng. QSO party. My paddles were the buttons on the mic of a 706. It was lots of listening up front. Then just reply to their call.

I didn't try running a freq while driving. You have to save something to shoot for.

David Wilburn
NM4M
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: ".k8dd." <[hidden email]>

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 17:43:55
To: Grant Youngman<[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft_List Reflector<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

I've never understood that line of thought.
Why would you take target practice at little tykes? That's unreal.

On the other hand people will talk on cell phones while driving and
people will pick up a microphone and talk on 2m. That's all ok. But
talk about talking on cw ..... You don't have a cell phone or a
microphone to drop if things go wrong - just take your hand off the key
or paddle and let it sit there.
And what's the difference between copying phone or CW in your head?
That's not an argument either!
I've just never understood the comments that get made about mobile CW.

73 :^]
Hank K8DD

Grant Youngman wrote:

> Hmmm .. I can't use my cell phone when driving through a school zone
> here, even with a hands-free. I wonder if I could get away with
> taking target practice at the little tykes walking to school while
> sending mobile CW :-)
>
> Grant/NQ5T
>
>> always sent around 25-30 WPM. I could never send as well as I could
>> copy
>> when mobile, due to the car bouncing off potholes, other vehicles,
>> etc.
>> ;-) As I got older, my sending speed fell below my copy speed even at
>> home. Regardless, unless I get a QRS request, I assume someone
>> answering my CQ can copy the speed I used.
>

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David Cutter

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

In reply to this post by AC7AC

Well, you could knock me down with a feather ! (As mum used to say) I
cannot imagine sending for more than a few minutes like that. From your
description, the upper arm must be at a considerable angle to the body,
whereas the way I'm used to, the upper arm is vertical, ie in a 'natural' or
relaxed position. Similarly, with the lower arm horizontal, the wrist has
an easy time because it is also in an easy, relaxed position. With your
description, the wrist must be bent quite sharply and I can imagine glass
arm following quite quickly, hence the bug key invention so the whole arm
rests on the table.

I had a quick look in that book but couldn't find a picture of the method
you describe. I drew a side view for RADCOM several years ago showing the
sitting position and received no comments.

There's a modern equivalent: the computer key board and mouse. I use these
several hours a day and need my chair raised quite high to get my arms as
near horizontal as possible, but it's never quite right, hence I use wrist
supports for both. That's why typist chairs are so much higher than desk
chairs.

The way I've explained it to trainees is that the wrist and fingers are like
a gearbox, or, perhaps in modern parlance - an interface - between the heavy
weight of the arm and the delicate instrument which is the fingers. The
fingers stay flexible and springy as the wrist bounces up and down over a
range of 2 to 3 inches which is translated by the fingers into a movement of
perhaps only 2 to 4 thou, ie less than a paper thickness for high speed
work. By the way I used a spring setting around 2oz.

I could go on...

Thanks for the education Ron, Ken and all.

73

David
G3UNA

> Ha, ha David. We're separated by more than a "common language"!
>
> The first time I saw the form of sending you describe with the arm in
> mid-air was about 10 years ago and I was astounded!
>
> Here in the USA since the the military and so civilian services taught
> everyone to lay their arm on the desk as Ken described. That goes back to,
> at least, the mid 1930's. That's how I've always used a straight key.
>
> I visited a buddy in Holland for the first time a few years ago and took
> with me as a gift a nice straight key. He immediately put it on the edge
> of
> his desk and wailed away on it with his arm in the air. My jaw dropped.
>
> We did do that here but only in mobile units where the key was strapped to
> one leg. In that use we also cranked the spring tension down much tighter
> than normal when the key was on the desk.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> "The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. "
>
> I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the
> key
>
> is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk,
> except
>
> perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight
> and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers
> of
> old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once.
>
> 73
>
> David
> G3UNA
>

w7aqk

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

Hi All,

May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those
who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm
vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would
substantially add to the probability of fatigue.

Anyway, my suggestion is this--relax! Seriously, I think a substantial
contributor to fatigue and "glass arm" is tension. The wrist and hand
cannot really perform effectively when tension is permitted. Under tension,
the muscles soon tire. I like to compare this to a golf swing, in that
nothing will defeat a golf swing more than tension. There is absolutely no
way you can properly execute a golf swing if your arms are locked and tense.
I think the same principal applies here.

I taught CW for a while when I was in the Army. I probably didn't have
command of all the appropriate techniques, but when I saw a student (most of
them actually) with a "death grip" on his key, I knew the output was going
to be pretty stinko--at least after a short while. By just getting them to
relax their forearm and wrist, the improvement was really quite dramatic.
It sometimes took a while to adjust their rhythm to a "proper" and relaxed
rocking motion of the wrist, but it usually worked.

There's a lot more to good technique than just what I have described. I
think folks like Ron, KU7Y, (he wrote a booklet on this sort of stuff), and
others, could add a great deal. I'm pretty sure my overall technique was
lacking in many ways, but there are some folks out there who can make a hand
key sing!

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Cutter" <[hidden email]>
To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>; "'Ken Kopp'" <[hidden email]>;
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

> Well, you could knock me down with a feather ! (As mum used to say) I
> cannot imagine sending for more than a few minutes like that. From your
> description, the upper arm must be at a considerable angle to the body,
> whereas the way I'm used to, the upper arm is vertical, ie in a 'natural'
> or
> relaxed position. Similarly, with the lower arm horizontal, the wrist has
> an easy time because it is also in an easy, relaxed position. With your
> description, the wrist must be bent quite sharply and I can imagine glass
> arm following quite quickly, hence the bug key invention so the whole arm
> rests on the table.
>
> I had a quick look in that book but couldn't find a picture of the method
> you describe. I drew a side view for RADCOM several years ago showing the
> sitting position and received no comments.
>
> There's a modern equivalent: the computer key board and mouse. I use
> these
> several hours a day and need my chair raised quite high to get my arms as
> near horizontal as possible, but it's never quite right, hence I use wrist
> supports for both. That's why typist chairs are so much higher than desk
> chairs.
>
>
> The way I've explained it to trainees is that the wrist and fingers are
> like
> a gearbox, or, perhaps in modern parlance - an interface - between the
> heavy
> weight of the arm and the delicate instrument which is the fingers. The
> fingers stay flexible and springy as the wrist bounces up and down over a
> range of 2 to 3 inches which is translated by the fingers into a movement
> of
> perhaps only 2 to 4 thou, ie less than a paper thickness for high speed
> work. By the way I used a spring setting around 2oz.
>
> I could go on...
>
> Thanks for the education Ron, Ken and all.
>
> 73
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
>
>
>> Ha, ha David. We're separated by more than a "common language"!
>>
>> The first time I saw the form of sending you describe with the arm in
>> mid-air was about 10 years ago and I was astounded!
>>
>> Here in the USA since the the military and so civilian services taught
>> everyone to lay their arm on the desk as Ken described. That goes back
>> to,
>> at least, the mid 1930's. That's how I've always used a straight key.
>>
>> I visited a buddy in Holland for the first time a few years ago and took
>> with me as a gift a nice straight key. He immediately put it on the edge
>> of
>> his desk and wailed away on it with his arm in the air. My jaw dropped.
>>
>> We did do that here but only in mobile units where the key was strapped
>> to
>> one leg. In that use we also cranked the spring tension down much tighter
>> than normal when the key was on the desk.
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> "The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. "
>>
>> I couldn't disagree more! I have always taught as I was taught that the
>> key
>>
>> is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk,
>> except
>>
>> perhaps the other hand. The forearm should be horizontal, sit up
>> straight
>> and relax the shoulders. It's very similar to typing. The telegraphers
>> of
>> old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one
>> once.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> David
>> G3UNA
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

David Cutter

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

David

That's something I can't understand. How do you make the upper arm vertical
(in both views) with the elbow on the table? The table would have to be
very low or your chair very high and your stomach right up (and over) the
edge of the table. Do you sit square to the table or at an angle? A
picture would paint a thousand words.

73

David
G3UNA
ps a friend has suggested that you sit that way to send American Morse
whereas we sit our way to send International Morse. Phew, I can feel the
flames licking around me already ; - ]

> Hi All,
>
> May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those
> who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm
> vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would
> substantially add to the probability of fatigue.
>
> Anyway, my suggestion is this--relax! Seriously, I think a substantial
> contributor to fatigue and "glass arm" is tension. The wrist and hand
> cannot really perform effectively when tension is permitted. Under
> tension, the muscles soon tire. I like to compare this to a golf swing,
> in that nothing will defeat a golf swing more than tension. There is
> absolutely no way you can properly execute a golf swing if your arms are
> locked and tense. I think the same principal applies here.
>
> I taught CW for a while when I was in the Army. I probably didn't have
> command of all the appropriate techniques, but when I saw a student (most
> of them actually) with a "death grip" on his key, I knew the output was
> going to be pretty stinko--at least after a short while. By just getting
> them to relax their forearm and wrist, the improvement was really quite
> dramatic. It sometimes took a while to adjust their rhythm to a "proper"
> and relaxed rocking motion of the wrist, but it usually worked.
>
> There's a lot more to good technique than just what I have described. I
> think folks like Ron, KU7Y, (he wrote a booklet on this sort of stuff),
> and others, could add a great deal. I'm pretty sure my overall technique
> was lacking in many ways, but there are some folks out there who can make
> a hand key sing!
>
> Dave W7AQK
>
>

Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

Let me jump ont this wagon too.
(Having taught morsecode receiving and sending to radio-officers for 5
years)

I was taught the 'EU-way', key on the side of the table. So, I taught
that to my student also.
What i see and feel when I do it the 'US-way', elbow on the table, it
works fine as long as I relax and let the wrist talk. Not any different
from the 'EU-way'.
I would use different keys for the two ways though.

73,
Arie PA3A

(PS: most of the time I use a vibroplex now)

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w7aqk

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

In reply to this post by David Cutter

David and All,

Well, I actually didn't intend to infer that the upper arm had to be
perfectly vertical. That is usually dicated by the height of the operating
table. I was basically trying to say that the arm would/should not be
totally extended, and that the forearm would/should be supported by the
table. However, your question makes me wonder if there might be some
benefit to having a key lower somewhat so that the upper arm could be more
vertical. I'll have to try that.

Basically though, the idea is to have the forearm resting comfortably, so
that weight of the arm is not a factor. The hand and wrist do the work, not
the arm. It just seems to me, from your drawing, the arm would tend to be
more involved in the process. That further suggests to me that the tension
thing I talked about would be more of a problem--perhaps not. When I rest
my forearm on the table, I can relax my arm. In the position shown in your
drawing, I would have to support the weight of the arm using arm and
shoulder muscles. It just seems logical to me that this would have to cause
some amount of fatigue at some point.

The bottom line I think is that the arm should be as comfortable as
possible. It has been a while since I really did long hours with a hand
key. When I was in the Army though, it was 8 hours a day. I distinctly
remember that some operating tables seemed too high, so I was always looking
for an adjustable chair. My arms seem to be more "relaxed" when they are
closer to my body, but that may really be a question of relaxing the
shoulders as well. I prefer to have the key closer to me, so that does
suggest that the upper arms be more vertical than extended. That may sound
mundane, but for long operating periods I think it matters. You might
experiment a bit.

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Cutter" <[hidden email]>
To: "David Y." <[hidden email]>; "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>; "'Ken
Kopp'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2009 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

> David
>
> That's something I can't understand. How do you make the upper arm
> vertical (in both views) with the elbow on the table? The table would
> have to be very low or your chair very high and your stomach right up (and
> over) the edge of the table. Do you sit square to the table or at an
> angle? A picture would paint a thousand words.
>
> 73
>
> David
> G3UNA
> ps a friend has suggested that you sit that way to send American Morse
> whereas we sit our way to send International Morse. Phew, I can feel the
> flames licking around me already ; - ]
>
>
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those
>> who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm
>> vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would
>> substantially add to the probability of fatigue.
>>
>> Anyway, my suggestion is this--relax! Seriously, I think a substantial
>> contributor to fatigue and "glass arm" is tension. The wrist and hand
>> cannot really perform effectively when tension is permitted. Under
>> tension, the muscles soon tire. I like to compare this to a golf swing,
>> in that nothing will defeat a golf swing more than tension. There is
>> absolutely no way you can properly execute a golf swing if your arms are
>> locked and tense. I think the same principal applies here.
>>
>> I taught CW for a while when I was in the Army. I probably didn't have
>> command of all the appropriate techniques, but when I saw a student (most
>> of them actually) with a "death grip" on his key, I knew the output was
>> going to be pretty stinko--at least after a short while. By just getting
>> them to relax their forearm and wrist, the improvement was really quite
>> dramatic. It sometimes took a while to adjust their rhythm to a "proper"
>> and relaxed rocking motion of the wrist, but it usually worked.
>>
>> There's a lot more to good technique than just what I have described. I
>> think folks like Ron, KU7Y, (he wrote a booklet on this sort of stuff),
>> and others, could add a great deal. I'm pretty sure my overall technique
>> was lacking in many ways, but there are some folks out there who can make
>> a hand key sing!
>>
>> Dave W7AQK
>>
>>

drewko

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

In reply to this post by w7aqk

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 01:10:05 -0700, Dave W7AQK wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those
>who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm
>vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would
>substantially add to the probability of fatigue.

Have to disagree here... Arm-off-the-table works fine for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-JkkkKGUHM&fmt=18

I can do this all day...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SythbsvxZfA&fmt=18

Even the worst key is useable (but I wouldn't recommend it)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSSAGY_L6YE&fmt=18

I think maintaining a loose "linkage" in the wrist, elbow and shoulder
really helps to relax. I like to fidgit around a bit while sending
CW; can't do that with my arm glued to the table. YMMV, of course!
Whatever works best for you.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

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Peter Wollan-2

Re: Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

In reply to this post by dave.wilburn

This is a seductive argurment, but it's specious. People have been
talking a long time, so why can't they use cell phones while driving?

The problem is that doing anything other than driving while you're
driving leads to inattention or distraction -- and a dramatic increase
in the likelihood of a wreck. You may feel that you're not like other
people, you can tell when you're not driving well, and you can handle
it. Drunk drivers think that way too.

I like the idea of mobile CW, and I admire the people who can do it.
But I'm not going to do it myself.

Peter N8MHD

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:40 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Your inability to perceive the problem is (likely) directly proportional to the years you have been doing code. ;)
>
> I did code mobile for the first time recently. Coming back from dropping my son off at Camp Lejeune. It was the New Eng. QSO party. My paddles were the buttons on the mic of a 706. It was lots of listening up front. Then just reply to their call.
>
> I didn't try running a freq while driving. You have to save something to shoot for.
>
> David Wilburn
> NM4M
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ".k8dd." <[hidden email]>
>
> Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 17:43:55
> To: Grant Youngman<[hidden email]>
> Cc: Elecraft_List Reflector<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed
>
>
> I've never understood that line of thought.
> Why would you take target practice at little tykes? That's unreal.
>
> On the other hand people will talk on cell phones while driving and
> people will pick up a microphone and talk on 2m. That's all ok. But
> talk about talking on cw ..... You don't have a cell phone or a
> microphone to drop if things go wrong - just take your hand off the key
> or paddle and let it sit there.
> And what's the difference between copying phone or CW in your head?
> That's not an argument either!
> I've just never understood the comments that get made about mobile CW.
>
> 73 :^]
> Hank K8DD
>
>
>
> Grant Youngman wrote:
>> Hmmm .. I can't use my cell phone when driving through a school zone
>> here, even with a hands-free. I wonder if I could get away with
>> taking target practice at the little tykes walking to school while
>> sending mobile CW :-)
>>
>> Grant/NQ5T
>>
>>> always sent around 25-30 WPM. I could never send as well as I could
>>> copy
>>> when mobile, due to the car bouncing off potholes, other vehicles,
>>> etc.
>>> ;-) As I got older, my sending speed fell below my copy speed even at
>>> home. Regardless, unless I get a QRS request, I assume someone
>>> answering my CQ can copy the speed I used.
>>
>
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g3ymc

Re: Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

On 8 Aug 2009 at 8:15, Peter Wollan wrote:

> This is a seductive argurment, but it's specious. People have been
> talking a long time, so why can't they use cell phones while driving?

In the UK of course using a mobile while driving is illegal (unless it
is hands free), on the spot fine if caught. There are special
exemptions for amateur kit, though I wouldn't want to be stopped by the
police speaking into a 2m handheld - or even worse sending morse while
driving.

Sadly this reflector is drifting WAY off topic. I recently resubscribed
to see what was happening in Atpos but if these sort of threads
continue I will be leaving again.

73 Dave G3YMC

http://www.davesergeant.com

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Pete Spotts

Re: Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009 14:41:16 +0100
"Dave Sergeant" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 8 Aug 2009 at 8:15, Peter Wollan wrote:
>
> > This is a seductive argurment, but it's specious. People have been
> > talking a long time, so why can't they use cell phones while
> > driving?
>
> In the UK of course using a mobile while driving is illegal (unless
> it is hands free), on the spot fine if caught. There are special
> exemptions for amateur kit, though I wouldn't want to be stopped by
> the police speaking into a 2m handheld - or even worse sending morse
> while driving.
>
> Sadly this reflector is drifting WAY off topic. I recently
> resubscribed to see what was happening in Atpos but if these sort of
> threads continue I will be leaving again.
>
> 73 Dave G3YMC
>
> http://www.davesergeant.com
>

Check out the archives before closing the door on the list. Thes crop
up every once in awhile, but threads like this represent a small
proportion of the topics, based on a *very* casual survey.

With best regards,

Pete
--
Peter N. Spotts -- KC1JB
http://www.kc1jb.net (under construction)
Email: [hidden email] | Skype: pspotts
QRP-ARCI # 4174 | North American QRP CW Club # 2446
Flying Pigs QRP # 1983 | SKCC # 4853 | QCWA #34679
W5JH Black Widow paddle #601

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David Cutter

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol

In reply to this post by drewko

That's very similar to what I had in mind.

Here is a link to my sketch, kindly hosted by David G4DMP

In my style, the pressure comes from the middle finger onto the disc and
that finger takes all of the bounce. I find bunching the fingers together
onto the key knob very tiring and I've added a disc to several keys. I have
thousands of these discs, so, if anyone wants some, let me know.

http://www.g4dmp.co.uk/MorseOperator.doc

73
David
G3UNA

>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>May I offer another suggestion? First of all, I tend to agree with those
>>who say the forearm should be supported by the table, with the upper arm
>>vertical. Seems to me that not supporting the arm with the table would
>>substantially add to the probability of fatigue.
>
> Have to disagree here... Arm-off-the-table works fine for me:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-JkkkKGUHM&fmt=18
>
> I can do this all day...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SythbsvxZfA&fmt=18
>
> Even the worst key is useable (but I wouldn't recommend it)...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSSAGY_L6YE&fmt=18
>
> I think maintaining a loose "linkage" in the wrist, elbow and shoulder
> really helps to relax. I like to fidgit around a bit while sending
> CW; can't do that with my arm glued to the table. YMMV, of course!
> Whatever works best for you.
>
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
>
>

Gary Hinson

Re: Off-Topic - Straight-key speed cpontrol --> Ergonomics

In reply to this post by drewko

> I think maintaining a loose "linkage" in the wrist, elbow and
shoulder
> really helps to relax. I like to fidgit around a bit while sending
> CW; can't do that with my arm glued to the table. YMMV, of course!
> Whatever works best for you.

I recently bought a "Natural" keyboard from Microsoft which has an
angled split down the middle so the left and right hands are less
inclined to intertwine themselves around the middle letters. As I get
used to it, it's gradually helping me improve my touch typing. It's
sold on the benefits for sufferers of Repetitive Strain Injury (=
typists elbow = glass arm).

Of a little more relevance, it came with an oversized mouse with a
high thumb groove and operating instructions that tell me to lay the
right side of my hand on the table next to the mouse, then rotate my
hand until the thumb reaches the groove, *leaving the side of my hand
still resting on the table*. Like the keyboard, it felt a little odd
at first but I'm getting used to to it ... And now I'm starting to
wonder about tilting my Bencher paddle in a similar way. I can easily
make a little wooden wedge to lift the left paddle relative to the
right, but a total redesign of the paddle to suit my hand's natural
resting position will probably work better than the original paddle
design which sits parallel to the desk.

73
Gary ZL2iFB

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

Administrator

In reply to this post by dw-4

Let's retire this thread for now. Its hit my unofficial 'OT' posting volume limit. ;-)
73,

Eric WA6HHQ
Elecraft List Moderator
_..._
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Wollan <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, Aug 8, 2009 6:15 am
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed
To: [hidden email]
CC: [hidden email], Elecraft_List Reflector <[hidden email]>

This is a seductive argurment, but it's specious. People have been
talking a long time, so why can't they use cell phones while driving?

The problem is that doing anything other than driving while you're
driving leads to inattention or distraction -- and a dramatic increase
in the likelihood of a wreck. You may feel that you're not like other
people, you can tell when you're not driving well, and you can handle
it. Drunk drivers think that way too.

I like the idea of mobile CW, and I admire the people who can do it.
But I'm not going to do it myself.

Peter N8MHD

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 11:40 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:

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