Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

[dw-4]

What's the general consensus?
Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
their copy speed?

I can't help but assume this, and so when I call CQ and get a return
caller sending at half the speed which I called or sending extreme
farnsworth, I almost always lower my speed in order to be considerate.

Thanks
Duane
N1BBR
 
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[Grant Youngman]

O
> ...  when I call CQ and get a return
> caller sending at half the speed which I called or sending extreme
> farnsworth, I almost always lower my speed in order to be considerate.

Sound like a good plan ...

Grant/NQ5T
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[AC7AC]

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[.k8dd.-2]

dw wrote:
> What's the general consensus?
> Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
> their copy speed?


Not necessarily.  I believe most people can receive CW faster than they
can send CW manually - keyer, bug or straight key.  Although when they
first start the opposite is probably true.

73    Hank    K8DD

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[Steve Ellington]

brilliant.

Steve
N4LQ
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "dw" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft_List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 12:26 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

> What's the general consensus?
> Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
> their copy speed?
>
> I can't help but assume this, and so when I call CQ and get a return
> caller sending at half the speed which I called or sending extreme
> farnsworth, I almost always lower my speed in order to be considerate.
>
> Thanks
> Duane
> N1BBR
>
> --
> [hidden email]
>
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[Brett Howard]

I'm capable of sending much faster than I can reliably copy.  So I find what
works best for me is I send slower to start off to try and get the other
person to match my speed.  I'm sending much slower than I can but I send
slower so that I can copy.  I find that 9 times out of 10 people answer me
at considerably higher speed than I'm sending.  Commonly I'll call at 10WPM
and get calls at 13 to 15 which is the difference between solid cpy and I'm
barely getting what your saying cpy.  But I usually muddle through.

I find that I'm happiest if I can send faster and talk the other OP into
QRSing below my sending speed.  Allows me to get out what I had to say and
also get a better print of what they are saying.  I find that it often
reduces stress on the faster guy and they talk to me longer too.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of dw
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 9:27 AM
To: Elecraft_List
Subject: [Elecraft] Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

What's the general consensus?
Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
their copy speed?

I can't help but assume this, and so when I call CQ and get a return
caller sending at half the speed which I called or sending extreme
farnsworth, I almost always lower my speed in order to be considerate.

Thanks
Duane
N1BBR
 
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[Doug Person]

Not sure I agree.  I can send 25 WPM with a decent straight key and
30-35 with a good iambic paddle.  However, I can only comfortably copy
15 WPM. I have a lot of trouble with stations that just need to send at
20 WPM.  I just can't quite manage that speed.

Doug -- K0DXV

k8dd. wrote:

> dw wrote:
>  
>> What's the general consensus?
>> Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
>> their copy speed?
>>    
>
>
> Not necessarily.  I believe most people can receive CW faster than they
> can send CW manually - keyer, bug or straight key.  Although when they
> first start the opposite is probably true.
>
> 73    Hank    K8DD
>
> ____________________________________________________________
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>  

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[.k8dd.-2]

Well, in my case it took a few years - and then around 35 wpm or so the
receiving speed passed the sending speed.

73    Hank    K8DD



Doug Person wrote:

> Not sure I agree.  I can send 25 WPM with a decent straight key and
> 30-35 with a good iambic paddle.  However, I can only comfortably copy
> 15 WPM. I have a lot of trouble with stations that just need to send at
> 20 WPM.  I just can't quite manage that speed.
>
> Doug -- K0DXV
>
> k8dd. wrote:
>> dw wrote:
>>  
>>> What's the general consensus?
>>> Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
>>> their copy speed?
>>>    
>>
>> Not necessarily.  I believe most people can receive CW faster than they
>> can send CW manually - keyer, bug or straight key.  Although when they
>> first start the opposite is probably true.
>>
>> 73    Hank    K8DD
>>

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[Ricky Robbins]

> Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
> their copy speed?

Well, it's *logical* - that just doesn't always mean it's true.  :)

After a long period of inactivity, my copy speed right now is about 10
wpm, but I can send considerably faster and I have to keep reminding
myself to send at about 10 wpm to avoid getting it sent back to me at
a faster speed than I can copy.

I can copy faster than 10 wpm when receiving the standard RST, Name,
QTH, Rig, etc., but if you start telling me about your late
grandmother's bursitis woes or the cabbage worm grief in your garden I
probably won't be able to keep up.

The problem is when I'm sending with a straight key I tend to creep up
in speed without realizing it, get it back at the faster speed, and
then cut QSO's short because I always feel it's impolite to ask the
other fellow to QRS when *I'm* the one who sped us up in the first
place.

The aforementioned ticks me off (at myself), because I'm a ragchewer
and when we move off of the formula and get into cabbage & grandmas is
when I start getting more interested in the di-dahversation.

I keep thinking the speed will come back, but I don't think it's
coming back at the rate it came originally some thirty years ago.

Rick
N4YQP
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[AC7AC]

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[AC7AC]

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[Brett Howard]

Yea...  Problem is that the usual answer to that is "73 GUD QSO HPE TO CUL".

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 11:01 AM
To: 'Elecraft_List'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Off-Topic: CW sending vs. recieving speed

The appropriate reaction is "PSE QRS 10 WPM TNX OM"

Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----
...I find that 9 times out of 10 people answer me
at considerably higher speed than I'm sending.  Commonly I'll call at 10WPM
and get calls at 13 to 15 which is the difference between solid cpy and I'm
barely getting what your saying cpy.  But I usually muddle through...


~Brett (KC7OTG)


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[Doug Person]

I sure can relate to that. I can send wonderful code at 25 WPM but
simply cannot copy anywhere near that.

I'm trying a new technique.  I'm going to copy received code by typing
it on my computer.  I can type an easy 60-70 WPM so I'm hoping that by
putting down the pencil and banging on the keyboard I can substantially
increase my receive speed.

Doug -- K0DXV

Ricky Robbins wrote:

>> Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
>> their copy speed?
>>    
>
> Well, it's *logical* - that just doesn't always mean it's true.  :)
>
> After a long period of inactivity, my copy speed right now is about 10
> wpm, but I can send considerably faster and I have to keep reminding
> myself to send at about 10 wpm to avoid getting it sent back to me at
> a faster speed than I can copy.
>
> I can copy faster than 10 wpm when receiving the standard RST, Name,
> QTH, Rig, etc., but if you start telling me about your late
> grandmother's bursitis woes or the cabbage worm grief in your garden I
> probably won't be able to keep up.
>
> The problem is when I'm sending with a straight key I tend to creep up
> in speed without realizing it, get it back at the faster speed, and
> then cut QSO's short because I always feel it's impolite to ask the
> other fellow to QRS when *I'm* the one who sped us up in the first
> place.
>
> The aforementioned ticks me off (at myself), because I'm a ragchewer
> and when we move off of the formula and get into cabbage & grandmas is
> when I start getting more interested in the di-dahversation.
>
> I keep thinking the speed will come back, but I don't think it's
> coming back at the rate it came originally some thirty years ago.
>
> Rick
> N4YQP
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>  

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[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Not always. Even if the Op who answers your call can copy high speed CW, he
might be replying at slow speed for some good reason such as echo on your
signal, which can make copy of high speed CW difficult, hoping that you will
slow down. At this latitude 56N multipath echo occurs quite frequently on
40m signals from the West Coast. A reply at 15wpm seems to work, but a reply
at a higher speed can become garbled when echo is present.

FWIW

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD.


> dw wrote:
>
> What's the general consensus?
> Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
> their copy speed?



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[Ken Kopp-3]

If you have trouble holding a steady sending speed
try tapping a heel or toe, as if you are a musician.

And, the should-be-obvious .... -don't- lay your arm
on the desk and only use your wrist to send.  The
elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on
the key's knob.  The wrist acts as a "spring" or
"damper".

73! Ken - K0PP
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[Dave, W8OV]

For several years I kept a schedule with an old(er) friend (now SK) as I
mobiled to work each day.  He could copy very high speed, but nearly
always sent around 25-30 WPM. I could never send as well as I could copy
when mobile, due to the car bouncing off potholes, other vehicles, etc.
;-) As I got older, my sending speed fell below my copy speed even at
home.  Regardless, unless I get a QRS request, I assume someone
answering my CQ can copy the speed I used.

Dave, W8OV
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[Grant Youngman]

Hmmm .. I can't use my cell phone when driving through a school zone  
here, even with a hands-free.  I wonder if I could get away with  
taking target practice at the little tykes walking to school while  
sending mobile CW :-)

Grant/NQ5T

>
> always sent around 25-30 WPM. I could never send as well as I could  
> copy
> when mobile, due to the car bouncing off potholes, other vehicles,  
> etc.
> ;-) As I got older, my sending speed fell below my copy speed even at
> home.  Regardless, unless I get a QRS request, I assume someone
> answering my CQ can copy the speed I used.

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[.k8dd.-2]

I've never understood that line of thought.
Why would you take target practice at little tykes?  That's unreal.

On the other hand people will talk on cell phones while driving and
people will pick up a microphone and talk on 2m.  That's all ok.  But
talk about talking on cw ..... You don't have a cell phone or a
microphone to drop if things go wrong - just take your hand off the key
or paddle and let it sit there.
And what's the difference between copying phone or CW in your head?
That's not an argument either!
I've just never understood the comments that get made about mobile CW.

73     :^]
Hank    K8DD



Grant Youngman wrote:

> Hmmm .. I can't use my cell phone when driving through a school zone  
> here, even with a hands-free.  I wonder if I could get away with  
> taking target practice at the little tykes walking to school while  
> sending mobile CW :-)
>
> Grant/NQ5T
>
>> always sent around 25-30 WPM. I could never send as well as I could  
>> copy
>> when mobile, due to the car bouncing off potholes, other vehicles,  
>> etc.
>> ;-) As I got older, my sending speed fell below my copy speed even at
>> home.  Regardless, unless I get a QRS request, I assume someone
>> answering my CQ can copy the speed I used.
>

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[Tom Hammond-2]

Hi Duane:

>Is it logical to assume that a person's CW sending speed approximates
>their copy speed?
>
>I can't help but assume this, and so when I call CQ and get a return
>caller sending at half the speed which I called or sending extreme
>farnsworth, I almost always lower my speed in order to be considerate.

In general, yes.  One should assume that if a station calls "CQ" at x-WPM,
he is soliciting a reply at or near that speed.

Likewise if you call "CQ" at 20 WPM you would normally expect to get a
reply at somewhere around that speed.

However... there are those (and I currently have one in my Advanced CW class)
who can readily copy 20-22 WPM, but who are still learning to send 'clean' CW
with a keyer, BUT they can send decent 13 WPM CW with a straight key.

I ALWAYS try to match my speed to that of the other guy, regardless of his
sending speed.  Sometimes that means that we have a 45-minute 15 WPM QSO,
only to find at the 45th minute that he actually can send/copy 50 WPM and
for some odd reason he just chose to send 15 WPM when he answered my CQ...
So we just had a QRS QSO when we could have held it at a much higher speed
which would have still suited both of us... <G>

IF you have any reason to believe that the other guy can send/receive at a
higher speed, you can always ASK him if he's able to send/copy faster.
I also have (several) students who can send (decent CQ) at a speed faster
than they can copy.  They won't speed up their sending unless asked to do so
and if asked, they tell the other guy to please NOT increase his speed to them
faster than they can copy (but 'pressing' their copy is good for them, to
some extent).

Hope this helps.

73,

Tom Hammond   N0SS

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[David Cutter]

"The elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on the key's knob. "

I couldn't disagree more!  I have always taught as I was taught that the key
is at the edge of the desk and no part of your body touches the desk, except
perhaps the other hand.  The forearm should be horizontal, sit up straight
and relax the shoulders.  It's very similar to typing.  The telegraphers of
old had to send for hours and this is the way they did it; I was one once.

73

David
G3UNA

> If you have trouble holding a steady sending speed
> try tapping a heel or toe, as if you are a musician.
>
> And, the should-be-obvious .... -don't- lay your arm
> on the desk and only use your wrist to send.  The
> elbow should rest on the desk and the fingers on
> the key's knob.  The wrist acts as a "spring" or
> "damper".
>
> 73! Ken - K0PP

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