P3: Can the Panadapter be used with a Ten Tec Orion 1?

[Lu Romero - W4LT]

Hi all:
 
I realize that the P3 can be set to function with various transceivers, but
can it be used with an Orion 1 (the original model, not the current model)?
 
Im not really interested in using the Panadapter for monitoring On Air
received signals (although that might be nice if it worked well for that
purpose as well because the scope in the Orion, well, sucks!).  No, what I
want to do with my P3 is use it as a local "spectrun analyser" scope to set
audio frequency response and equalization for transmission. Transmitting
into a dummy load and turning monitor on, I can hear the monitor output of
the Orion, but it would be nice to also SEE it as well to better and more
accurately shape the signal.  Yes its better to do it with another receiver,
but time is of the essence in this environment.
 
Lacking a audio spectrum analyser, but having a P3, I thought I could put it
to good use next weekend for setting up consistent audio levels and
processing in this Ten Tec environment.  I have 12 Orion 1 transceivers to
"match" and not much time to do it, so it would be a helpful tool to have!
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Lu Romero - W4LT
K3 #3182/P3 # 1302
And now K1 # 2539
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Lu,

I don't like to discourage list members away from Elecraft products, but
I do not know if the P3 will do the task you are asking about - it
depends on what other equipment you have to use along with the P3.  Yes,
the P3 can do the job IF you have the other equipment to run it for your
immediate purposes.

I would suggest that you also investigate the "Simple Spectrum Analyzer"
by G4AON used in conjunction with Spectrogram or SpectrumLab or other
computer based FFT audio spectrum analyzer.
You can find information on the resistive tap and the mixer at
http://www.astromag.co.uk/ssa/.  This is an adaptation of the 40 dB
resistive tap from the W7ZOI Power Meter along with a mixer to bring the
signal down to baseband where it can be analyzed with an audio FFT
spectrum analyzer.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/23/2011 11:08 PM, Luis V. Romero wrote:

> Hi all:
>
> I realize that the P3 can be set to function with various transceivers, but
> can it be used with an Orion 1 (the original model, not the current model)?
>
> Im not really interested in using the Panadapter for monitoring On Air
> received signals (although that might be nice if it worked well for that
> purpose as well because the scope in the Orion, well, sucks!).  No, what I
> want to do with my P3 is use it as a local "spectrun analyser" scope to set
> audio frequency response and equalization for transmission. Transmitting
> into a dummy load and turning monitor on, I can hear the monitor output of
> the Orion, but it would be nice to also SEE it as well to better and more
> accurately shape the signal.  Yes its better to do it with another receiver,
> but time is of the essence in this environment.
>
> Lacking a audio spectrum analyser, but having a P3, I thought I could put it
> to good use next weekend for setting up consistent audio levels and
> processing in this Ten Tec environment.  I have 12 Orion 1 transceivers to
> "match" and not much time to do it, so it would be a helpful tool to have!
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Lu Romero - W4LT
> K3 #3182/P3 # 1302
> And now K1 # 2539
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Lu Romero - W4LT]

Hi Don:

Thanks for the response.  

Maybe Im not clear regarding what Im trying to do.

I have a dozen TenTec Orion 1's at a multi multi operation I
play at.  Im tasked with "standardizing" the audio
parameters for this operation in regards to compression and
frequency response before CQ WW SSB.  We want to make sure
that all the rigs sound as good as they can sound and have
consistent levels.  People play with these radios over the
ensuing months, so they are usually diddled to death by the
time I get there.

I have done this in the past "by ear".  That is, I have
plugged a given rig into a dummy load and diddled with the
audio settings until I got it to sound "right".  I wrote
down all the settings and went to another radio.  I set that
radio on a dummy load and input all the settings I wrote
down on the first radio.  I used the same microphone, the
same audio path and made sure the radios were at the same
software revision.  Lo and behold, the second radio sounds
different than the first with exactly the same numbers in
the software!  I have found in practice that no two Orions
sound the same, using exactly the same numbers and exactly
the same microphone and exactly the same voice (mine).

What I want to do is inject pink noise from a Flash Memory
WAV player that has a track from the NAB Audio Reference
disk.  I have the WAV player set to loop the file forever.
Feeding it through a Radio Design Labs line level to mic
level amplifier block, the level coming out is 0 VU mic
level at a nominal 600 ohms impedance.  I want to feed this
into the mic input of the Transceiver under Test and, with a
"spectrum analyser" looking at the output of the audio
monitor circuit (yes, not ideal, but it gets me in the
ballpark) "see" where Im at.  I trust my ears, but it would
be nice to be able to see the waveform on the SA.  Knowing
where I am at, I can then adjust the rig's settings and even
"pre-distort" the audio input from external processing
(several transceivers are driven through W2IHY processors)
to optimize drive, punch and inteligibility.

As I said, I have done this "by ear" in the past.  But now I
have a P3.  I can do exactly the same thing on my personal
K3 by disconnecting the serial connection.  I can then see
the output of the rig in the P3 via IF leakage, and I was
able to look at what pink noise looks like at my personal
station and the effect of applying EQ to the pink noise
VISUALLY on the P3. I could do what I have to do faster on
the Orions if I could SEE the waveforms.  It would save me
time I can use otherwise at this station.

What I would like to know is if the P3 can, using any IF
leakage from the Orion's IF out, do the same thing as I can
do on my K3. Im not looking for any laboratory grade results
here, Im just looking for a ballpark image of the modulation
envelope that includes frequency domain information so I can
judge the "flatness" (or lack thereof) of the audio
frequency response of a given Orion rig.  This way, I can
twiddle the knobs and "match" the rigs as closely as
possible to a "consistent" starting point since the same
identical numbers dont seem to have indentical results
across Orions as they do on K3's.  If the numbers gave
repeatable results across several Orions, I wouldnt have to
do this! I would just input the numbers into all the rigs
and have a consistent starting point for tweaking.  

I want to use what I have on hand, I dont want to go out and
spend money or time building things.  If I was still at my
old TV station, I would borrow the Tek Spectrum Analyser at
the transmitter, or the Anchor audio analyser at the studio
and be done with it, but I dont work there anymore and dont
have access to these tools, so I wanted to use what I had on
hand.  

Guess I will just have to try it and see if it works!  Or
maybe I will look on the web for a freeware or shareware
audio baseband spectrum analyser which runs on a PC laptop
which I can then plug into the headphone output of a given
Orion and observe the waveform there.  

I was just curious if someone had used the P3 for something
like this in the past.

-lu-w4lt-

Message: 17
Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:40:35 -0400
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: Can the Panadapter be used with
a Ten Tec
    Orion 1?
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Lu,

I don't like to discourage list members away from Elecraft
products, but
I do not know if the P3 will do the task you are asking
about - it
depends on what other equipment you have to use along with
the P3.  Yes,
the P3 can do the job IF you have the other equipment to run
it for your
immediate purposes.

I would suggest that you also investigate the "Simple
Spectrum Analyzer"
by G4AON used in conjunction with Spectrogram or SpectrumLab
or other
computer based FFT audio spectrum analyzer.
You can find information on the resistive tap and the mixer
at
http://www.astromag.co.uk/ssa/.  This is an adaptation of
the 40 dB
resistive tap from the W7ZOI Power Meter along with a mixer
to bring the
signal down to baseband where it can be analyzed with an
audio FFT
spectrum analyzer.

73,
Don W3FPR

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[Merv Schweigert]

If you protect the P3 input with some back to back diodes,  put a piece of
wire on the IF input,  dial up the P3 IF to the the freq you wish to
listen to,  and the P3
will show you the received signal.
I think the caveat is to protect the input to the P3 or you will burn it
up..


Merv K9FD/KH6

> Hi Don:
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
> Maybe Im not clear regarding what Im trying to do.
>
> I have a dozen TenTec Orion 1's at a multi multi operation I
> play at.  Im tasked with "standardizing" the audio
> parameters for this operation in regards to compression and
> frequency response before CQ WW SSB.  We want to make sure
> that all the rigs sound as good as they can sound and have
> consistent levels.  People play with these radios over the
> ensuing months, so they are usually diddled to death by the
> time I get there.
>
> I have done this in the past "by ear".  That is, I have
> plugged a given rig into a dummy load and diddled with the
> audio settings until I got it to sound "right".  I wrote
> down all the settings and went to another radio.  I set that
> radio on a dummy load and input all the settings I wrote
> down on the first radio.  I used the same microphone, the
> same audio path and made sure the radios were at the same
> software revision.  Lo and behold, the second radio sounds
> different than the first with exactly the same numbers in
> the software!  I have found in practice that no two Orions
> sound the same, using exactly the same numbers and exactly
> the same microphone and exactly the same voice (mine).
>
> What I want to do is inject pink noise from a Flash Memory
> WAV player that has a track from the NAB Audio Reference
> disk.  I have the WAV player set to loop the file forever.
> Feeding it through a Radio Design Labs line level to mic
> level amplifier block, the level coming out is 0 VU mic
> level at a nominal 600 ohms impedance.  I want to feed this
> into the mic input of the Transceiver under Test and, with a
> "spectrum analyser" looking at the output of the audio
> monitor circuit (yes, not ideal, but it gets me in the
> ballpark) "see" where Im at.  I trust my ears, but it would
> be nice to be able to see the waveform on the SA.  Knowing
> where I am at, I can then adjust the rig's settings and even
> "pre-distort" the audio input from external processing
> (several transceivers are driven through W2IHY processors)
> to optimize drive, punch and inteligibility.
>
> As I said, I have done this "by ear" in the past.  But now I
> have a P3.  I can do exactly the same thing on my personal
> K3 by disconnecting the serial connection.  I can then see
> the output of the rig in the P3 via IF leakage, and I was
> able to look at what pink noise looks like at my personal
> station and the effect of applying EQ to the pink noise
> VISUALLY on the P3. I could do what I have to do faster on
> the Orions if I could SEE the waveforms.  It would save me
> time I can use otherwise at this station.
>
> What I would like to know is if the P3 can, using any IF
> leakage from the Orion's IF out, do the same thing as I can
> do on my K3. Im not looking for any laboratory grade results
> here, Im just looking for a ballpark image of the modulation
> envelope that includes frequency domain information so I can
> judge the "flatness" (or lack thereof) of the audio
> frequency response of a given Orion rig.  This way, I can
> twiddle the knobs and "match" the rigs as closely as
> possible to a "consistent" starting point since the same
> identical numbers dont seem to have indentical results
> across Orions as they do on K3's.  If the numbers gave
> repeatable results across several Orions, I wouldnt have to
> do this! I would just input the numbers into all the rigs
> and have a consistent starting point for tweaking.
>
> I want to use what I have on hand, I dont want to go out and
> spend money or time building things.  If I was still at my
> old TV station, I would borrow the Tek Spectrum Analyser at
> the transmitter, or the Anchor audio analyser at the studio
> and be done with it, but I dont work there anymore and dont
> have access to these tools, so I wanted to use what I had on
> hand.
>
> Guess I will just have to try it and see if it works!  Or
> maybe I will look on the web for a freeware or shareware
> audio baseband spectrum analyser which runs on a PC laptop
> which I can then plug into the headphone output of a given
> Orion and observe the waveform there.
>
> I was just curious if someone had used the P3 for something
> like this in the past.
>
> -lu-w4lt-
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:40:35 -0400
> From: Don Wilhelm<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: Can the Panadapter be used with
> a Ten Tec
>      Orion 1?
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID:<[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Lu,
>
> I don't like to discourage list members away from Elecraft
> products, but
> I do not know if the P3 will do the task you are asking
> about - it
> depends on what other equipment you have to use along with
> the P3.  Yes,
> the P3 can do the job IF you have the other equipment to run
> it for your
> immediate purposes.
>
> I would suggest that you also investigate the "Simple
> Spectrum Analyzer"
> by G4AON used in conjunction with Spectrogram or SpectrumLab
> or other
> computer based FFT audio spectrum analyzer.
> You can find information on the resistive tap and the mixer
> at
> http://www.astromag.co.uk/ssa/.  This is an adaptation of
> the 40 dB
> resistive tap from the W7ZOI Power Meter along with a mixer
> to bring the
> signal down to baseband where it can be analyzed with an
> audio FFT
> spectrum analyzer.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>    

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[Alan Bloom]

Hi Lu,

Why not just tune the K3 to the RF output frequency of the Orion?  The
K3's IF output signal is picked off before the crystal filters, so the
P3 shows the actual unfiltered signal received at the K3 antenna
connector.

Alan N1AL


On Mon, 2011-10-24 at 16:39 -0400, Lu Romero wrote:

> Hi Don:
>
> Thanks for the response.  
>
> Maybe Im not clear regarding what Im trying to do.
>
> I have a dozen TenTec Orion 1's at a multi multi operation I
> play at.  Im tasked with "standardizing" the audio
> parameters for this operation in regards to compression and
> frequency response before CQ WW SSB.  We want to make sure
> that all the rigs sound as good as they can sound and have
> consistent levels.  People play with these radios over the
> ensuing months, so they are usually diddled to death by the
> time I get there.
>
> I have done this in the past "by ear".  That is, I have
> plugged a given rig into a dummy load and diddled with the
> audio settings until I got it to sound "right".  I wrote
> down all the settings and went to another radio.  I set that
> radio on a dummy load and input all the settings I wrote
> down on the first radio.  I used the same microphone, the
> same audio path and made sure the radios were at the same
> software revision.  Lo and behold, the second radio sounds
> different than the first with exactly the same numbers in
> the software!  I have found in practice that no two Orions
> sound the same, using exactly the same numbers and exactly
> the same microphone and exactly the same voice (mine).
>
> What I want to do is inject pink noise from a Flash Memory
> WAV player that has a track from the NAB Audio Reference
> disk.  I have the WAV player set to loop the file forever.
> Feeding it through a Radio Design Labs line level to mic
> level amplifier block, the level coming out is 0 VU mic
> level at a nominal 600 ohms impedance.  I want to feed this
> into the mic input of the Transceiver under Test and, with a
> "spectrum analyser" looking at the output of the audio
> monitor circuit (yes, not ideal, but it gets me in the
> ballpark) "see" where Im at.  I trust my ears, but it would
> be nice to be able to see the waveform on the SA.  Knowing
> where I am at, I can then adjust the rig's settings and even
> "pre-distort" the audio input from external processing
> (several transceivers are driven through W2IHY processors)
> to optimize drive, punch and inteligibility.
>
> As I said, I have done this "by ear" in the past.  But now I
> have a P3.  I can do exactly the same thing on my personal
> K3 by disconnecting the serial connection.  I can then see
> the output of the rig in the P3 via IF leakage, and I was
> able to look at what pink noise looks like at my personal
> station and the effect of applying EQ to the pink noise
> VISUALLY on the P3. I could do what I have to do faster on
> the Orions if I could SEE the waveforms.  It would save me
> time I can use otherwise at this station.
>
> What I would like to know is if the P3 can, using any IF
> leakage from the Orion's IF out, do the same thing as I can
> do on my K3. Im not looking for any laboratory grade results
> here, Im just looking for a ballpark image of the modulation
> envelope that includes frequency domain information so I can
> judge the "flatness" (or lack thereof) of the audio
> frequency response of a given Orion rig.  This way, I can
> twiddle the knobs and "match" the rigs as closely as
> possible to a "consistent" starting point since the same
> identical numbers dont seem to have indentical results
> across Orions as they do on K3's.  If the numbers gave
> repeatable results across several Orions, I wouldnt have to
> do this! I would just input the numbers into all the rigs
> and have a consistent starting point for tweaking.  
>
> I want to use what I have on hand, I dont want to go out and
> spend money or time building things.  If I was still at my
> old TV station, I would borrow the Tek Spectrum Analyser at
> the transmitter, or the Anchor audio analyser at the studio
> and be done with it, but I dont work there anymore and dont
> have access to these tools, so I wanted to use what I had on
> hand.  
>
> Guess I will just have to try it and see if it works!  Or
> maybe I will look on the web for a freeware or shareware
> audio baseband spectrum analyser which runs on a PC laptop
> which I can then plug into the headphone output of a given
> Orion and observe the waveform there.  
>
> I was just curious if someone had used the P3 for something
> like this in the past.
>
> -lu-w4lt-
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 23:40:35 -0400
> From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: Can the Panadapter be used with
> a Ten Tec
>     Orion 1?
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Lu,
>
> I don't like to discourage list members away from Elecraft
> products, but
> I do not know if the P3 will do the task you are asking
> about - it
> depends on what other equipment you have to use along with
> the P3.  Yes,
> the P3 can do the job IF you have the other equipment to run
> it for your
> immediate purposes.
>
> I would suggest that you also investigate the "Simple
> Spectrum Analyzer"
> by G4AON used in conjunction with Spectrogram or SpectrumLab
> or other
> computer based FFT audio spectrum analyzer.
> You can find information on the resistive tap and the mixer
> at
> http://www.astromag.co.uk/ssa/.  This is an adaptation of
> the 40 dB
> resistive tap from the W7ZOI Power Meter along with a mixer
> to bring the
> signal down to baseband where it can be analyzed with an
> audio FFT
> spectrum analyzer.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Dave Johnson]

Lu, if you have access to an SDR receiver that can record it's output
on a PC, it might be easier that using a noise source.

When comparing several microphones and headsets on my K3, I used a
Perseus SDR to play back the results for A/B/C/D comparison in order
to pick the best equaliser/mic combination. The saved files from the
Perseus were labelled to match the microphone and can be played back
very easily, in addition, recording a wide chunk of frequency means
the bandwidth can easily be checked if that might be an issue.

73 Dave
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[Nr4c]

Pardon me, but I have read a lot of the traffic on this topic, and some
very good ideas have been considered.  Recorded audio into the mic jack
or a sound source as in a 'pink' noise, or ''white' noise allows the
radio to be adjusted.  I have a K3, so I can use it with the P3 to
analyze the audio of my other radio(s) while transmitting into a 'dummy'
load.

But, none of these account for the difference in mics.  A station with
a dozen radios and a dozen mic is still going to show differences in
transmitted audio due to different mics and mic usage/voices.

I'm glad I don't have to do this!

...bill   nr4c



On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 13:09:47 +0000, Dave Johnson wrote:

> Lu, if you have access to an SDR receiver that can record it's output
> on a PC, it might be easier that using a noise source.
>
> When comparing several microphones and headsets on my K3, I used a
> Perseus SDR to play back the results for A/B/C/D comparison in order
> to pick the best equaliser/mic combination. The saved files from the
> Perseus were labelled to match the microphone and can be played back
> very easily, in addition, recording a wide chunk of frequency means
> the bandwidth can easily be checked if that might be an issue.
>
> 73 Dave
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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