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P3: a modest proposal for QSY

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Bob Cunnings NW8L

P3: a modest proposal for QSY

P3 s/n 74 arrived today, went together nicely and works great. I'm
still getting used to it, but as a long-time LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF user,
I was struck by one thing right away.

With PowerSDR-IF point and click tuning with the mouse is enhanced by
the fact that after pointing and clicking to change the K3 frequency,
one may immediately "fine tune" the signal with the mouse scroll
wheel. Especially for CW signals, this becomes second nature, a quick,
fluid series of actions - point, click, fine tune up or down to
zero-beat the signal (I do it by ear), using only one hand. This is
good because I can't always point with perfect accuracy, so am often
some tens or hundreds of Hz away from the desired signal. I set the
scroll wheel fine tuning rate to either 10 or 50 Hz per step.

With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to
the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at
least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more. So, in order to zero-beat I
must move a hand to the K3 and tune it in or press SPOT. I'd rather
finish the job using the hand already on the P3 SELECT knob, it's much
easier that way when it's done repeatedly (search and pounce etc). I
like panadaptor spans of 30 to 40 kHz, but even with narrower spans I
just can't consistently get close enough to zero-beat with a CW signal
on the P3 using the marker.

What I'd like to propose is a P3 "fine tune" QSY mode (optional,
controlled by menu setting), where the act of QSYing by tapping the
SELECT knob not only changes the K3 frequency, but also:

1. Clears the marker.
2. Puts the P3 into a mode where turning the select knob one way or
the other "fine tunes" the K3 at some rate like 200 Hz per revolution
or so (a "fine" rate, maybe adjustable).
3. Then, after any required fine tuning is complete, one more tap of
the select knob disables fine tuning, and it's business as usual.

The marker is cleared in step 1 because otherwise turning the SELECT
knob should continue to move the marker.

So the flow goes like this, with the proposed "Fine Tune" QSY mode
enabled in menu:

1. Tap MKR A to enable marker.
2. Turn SELECT knob to move marker onto desired signal.
3. Tap SELECT knob to QSY. The marker is cleared. Fine tuning of K3 is enabled.
4. Turn SELECT knob to fine tune (to zero-beat in the CW case, by ear
or using CWT indicator) the desired signal.
5. Tap SELECT knob once more to disable fine tuning, returning to normal state.

MKR B would get the same treatment. This would be perfectly general,
working for all modes, and less tiring when QSYing repeatedly using
the marker.

Bob NW8L
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The Smiths

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

I agree with your idea Bob, I think that perhaps the marker should stay on though. Perhaps it should either turn green, or blink or give some indication that you are still in the QSY mode. Once you push the QSY button again it would lock in your "scrubbed to" location and the Marker could come back solid, or blue again.
As for the movement in that second QSY mode, I would have it so that as you turn the QSY select knob the freq is just dragged along at real time, just as if you were turning the VFO knob. The rate could be set by how you have your knob Fine/course tuning rate set.

That would give you something similar to what you have on your LP Pan. I would love this feature as I've found myself using that QSY knob more than the VFO now...

> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 22:24:59 -0600
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>
> P3 s/n 74 arrived today, went together nicely and works great. I'm
> still getting used to it, but as a long-time LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF user,
> I was struck by one thing right away.
>
> With PowerSDR-IF point and click tuning with the mouse is enhanced by
> the fact that after pointing and clicking to change the K3 frequency,
> one may immediately "fine tune" the signal with the mouse scroll
> wheel. Especially for CW signals, this becomes second nature, a quick,
> fluid series of actions - point, click, fine tune up or down to
> zero-beat the signal (I do it by ear), using only one hand. This is
> good because I can't always point with perfect accuracy, so am often
> some tens or hundreds of Hz away from the desired signal. I set the
> scroll wheel fine tuning rate to either 10 or 50 Hz per step.
>
> With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to
> the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at
> least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more. So, in order to zero-beat I
> must move a hand to the K3 and tune it in or press SPOT. I'd rather
> finish the job using the hand already on the P3 SELECT knob, it's much
> easier that way when it's done repeatedly (search and pounce etc). I
> like panadaptor spans of 30 to 40 kHz, but even with narrower spans I
> just can't consistently get close enough to zero-beat with a CW signal
> on the P3 using the marker.
>
> What I'd like to propose is a P3 "fine tune" QSY mode (optional,
> controlled by menu setting), where the act of QSYing by tapping the
> SELECT knob not only changes the K3 frequency, but also:
>
> 1. Clears the marker.
> 2. Puts the P3 into a mode where turning the select knob one way or
> the other "fine tunes" the K3 at some rate like 200 Hz per revolution
> or so (a "fine" rate, maybe adjustable).
> 3. Then, after any required fine tuning is complete, one more tap of
> the select knob disables fine tuning, and it's business as usual.
>
> The marker is cleared in step 1 because otherwise turning the SELECT
> knob should continue to move the marker.
>
> So the flow goes like this, with the proposed "Fine Tune" QSY mode
> enabled in menu:
>
> 1. Tap MKR A to enable marker.
> 2. Turn SELECT knob to move marker onto desired signal.
> 3. Tap SELECT knob to QSY. The marker is cleared. Fine tuning of K3 is enabled.
> 4. Turn SELECT knob to fine tune (to zero-beat in the CW case, by ear
> or using CWT indicator) the desired signal.
> 5. Tap SELECT knob once more to disable fine tuning, returning to normal state.
>
> MKR B would get the same treatment. This would be perfectly general,
> working for all modes, and less tiring when QSYing repeatedly using
> the marker.
>
>
> Bob NW8L
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Bill W4ZV

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

Bob Cunnings wrote

With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to
the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at
least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more.

While I agree with the need for a better zero-beat QSY function (I'm spoiled by Skimmer's decoder dots), you should be able to come much closer than +/- 100-200 Hz. Have you checked both your K3's Ref Cal (do that first) and the P3's Ref Cal procedure? Using a 100 Hz BW (i.e. +/- 50 Hz) in the K3, I can consistently hear QSY signals inside the 100 Hz passband.

73, Bill

P.B. Christensen

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

> With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to
> the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at
> least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more.

A "snap to signal" menu function (with AFC centering) like that provided by
some software programs would be useful. Sounds like Elecraft already has
taken the idea into consideration as a future P3 feature.

Paul, W9AC

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Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

Yes, Ref Cal has been performed on both K3 and P3. The issue is ergonomic.

It's a matter of how accurately I can place the marker in the wider
spans, especially when I need to move quickly. My near vision isn't so
great, and the pixels on the display are tiny. At, say, a span of 50
kHz each pixel on the display is a 100 Hz bin (approx). If I'm off by
a couple of pixels when I position the marker and tap SELECT, I'm at
the very edge of my 400 Hz CW filter. Point and click tuning doesn't
have to be such an exacting exercise if you could just place the
marker approximately and then rapidly and accurately fine tune the
signal by ear, all with the SELECT knob.

I don't know what span you normally use, but I like using a span of at
least 50 kHz so I can observe activity on the entire CW sub-band, and
this would make hopping from signal to signal easier. Perhaps the
implementation of external monitor support will help by expanding the
display, but that's off in the future.

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>>
>>
>> With the P3, when I move the marker and tap the SELECT knob to QSY to
>> the frequency of some CW signal, rarely end up at zero-beat, often at
>> least 100-200 Hz away, sometimes more.
>>
>
> While I agree with the need for a better zero-beat QSY function (I'm spoiled
> by Skimmer's decoder dots), you should be able to come much closer than +/-
> 100-200 Hz. Have you checked both your K3's Ref Cal (do that first) and the
> P3's Ref Cal procedure? Using a 100 Hz BW (i.e. +/- 50 Hz) in the K3, I can
> consistently hear QSY signals inside the 100 Hz passband.
>
> 73, Bill
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5412345.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bill W4ZV

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

Bob Cunnings wrote

Yes, Ref Cal has been performed on both K3 and P3. The issue is ergonomic.

Another thing I do is to align the Spectrum MKR with the Waterfall (no MKR). The Center Line in the Spectrum Display interferes with the signal and MKR so it's easier to align if you use Split Display mode with Spectrum MKR only and align to the signal in the Waterfall immediately below.

As I said before I also hope for some sort of Snap Tune, but I can do much better than +/- 100-200 Hz with the current setup.

73, Bill

P.S. Depending on which firmware rev you have there may not be a Waterfall MKR available. There is in beta 00.30 but I don't use it for the above reason.

Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

Can you really do much better than +/- 100-200 Hz using a 50 kHz span?
That requires a marker placement accuracy of +/- 2 pixels, a 4 pixel
window, which is less than 1% of the width of the display (4/480 =
0.25%). If so, I must concede that you're a much better marksman than
I am!

The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when
using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could
see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might,
when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside
the passband of my 400 Hz filter. At 70 kHz each pixel represents a
150 Hz bin (approx) so I'm off by even 2 pixels I'm outside the filter
passband. Jumping from signal to signal within a wide panadaptor span
would be easier with a fine tune feature, and work for SSB signals as
well as CW.

I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode
with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for
extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar
functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion.

"Snap Tune" is an interesting idea too.

73,

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Bob Cunnings wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Ref Cal has been performed on both K3 and P3. The issue is ergonomic.
>>
>
> Another thing I do is to align the Spectrum MKR with the Waterfall (no MKR).
> The Center Line in the Spectrum Display interferes with the signal and MKR
> so it's easier to align if you use Split Display mode with Spectrum MKR only
> and align to the signal in the Waterfall immediately below.
>
> As I said before I also hope for some sort of Snap Tune, but I can do much
> better than +/- 100-200 Hz with the current setup.
>
> 73, Bill
>
> P.S. Depending on which firmware rev you have there may not be a Waterfall
> MKR available. There is in beta 00.30 but I don't use it for the above
> reason.
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5412535.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

The Smiths

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

Actually, after you posted that on the reflector last night I went back to the P3 and I put my span at 50KHz and I did a BUNCH of QSY to and from the zero beat of a signal. I was generally able to park myself within about 10Hz of the Center. A quick push of the SPOT button brought me right to Zero Beat with the signal. I did this with both weak signals and with loud ones (dark red lines).
Of course this is ONLY because I painstakingly took the time to find and properly set my Center mark before doing the final Ref Cal Alighment.
As you have already figured out, it's VERY important to let the P3 warm up sufficiently due to it's excessive drifting before doing the REF-Cal alignment. After that you should be able to get yourself somewhat close.

I think that the key to getting it so accurate, Bob, is to use your Peak meter.. Once a signal is present on the Audio display, and you can see below that it's a cw signal, if you line the A marker up with the displayed Peak of the signal that's stuck there, you can pretty much nail it. If you're trying to QSY to a signal by lining it up with only the Waterfall line as it comes down, or even worse, by using the Audio scope WITHOUT the peak on, you'll never get close.. That becomes a guessing game.
I'm still VERY much in favor of your idea to have a Scrub feature once you QSY, thereby using the Select knob as a way to drag the VFO around until you have Zero beat the signal both on the rig, and on the display. Then exit the Scub mode returning the A/B marker.

Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER" alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to be within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This would allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero Beat, and not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow to the CW guys.

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:33:27 -0600
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>
> Can you really do much better than +/- 100-200 Hz using a 50 kHz span?
> That requires a marker placement accuracy of +/- 2 pixels, a 4 pixel
> window, which is less than 1% of the width of the display (4/480 =
> 0.25%). If so, I must concede that you're a much better marksman than
> I am!
>
> The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when
> using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could
> see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might,
> when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside
> the passband of my 400 Hz filter. At 70 kHz each pixel represents a
> 150 Hz bin (approx) so I'm off by even 2 pixels I'm outside the filter
> passband. Jumping from signal to signal within a wide panadaptor span
> would be easier with a fine tune feature, and work for SSB signals as
> well as CW.
>
> I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode
> with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for
> extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar
> functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion.
>
> "Snap Tune" is an interesting idea too.
>
> 73,
>
> Bob NW8L
>

Bill W4ZV

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Bob Cunnings [via Elecraft] <[hidden email]> wrote:

The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when
using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could
see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might,
when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside
the passband of my 400 Hz filter.

I decided to try the same on 20m since 40m is relatively dead here. Using a 70 kHz SPAN and 400 Hz filter, after QSY I had NO signals falling outside my passband. I don't know what we're doing differently but I am simply aligning MKR A (in the Spectrum display only) which is 2 pixels wide with the signals in the Waterfall display directly below. I adjust REF LVL such that the waterfall background is relatively dark and weak signals are 1 pixel wide. I don't find it hard to align these but would actually prefer if MKR was 1 pixel wide instead of 2 (and I've told Alan that).

I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode
with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for
extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar
functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion.

I don't care for PowerSDR but I do use CW Skimmer's waterfall. The advantage is that clicking on a decoder dot in Skimmer takes you to the *exact* zero-beat frequency. The downside is that Skimmer's "Softrock on IF" mode (which is what must be used on the K3) is limited to 24 kHz spans (although Page Up and Down allows you to jump these spans up or down the band quickly). IMHO the really unique advantage of Skimmer is that you can jump from one decoder dot to the next by simply using Up or Down arrows on the keyboard. This makes for extremely fast S&Ping up or down the band in contests. CT1BOH first described this below:

http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/skimmertalk/2008-November/000191.html

This is perfectly legal for unassisted categories since Skimmer's Blind Mode is not displaying decoded calls.

If the P3 can be made to do something similar this would overcome this weakness relative to Skimmer. The P3 has many other advantages such as 200 kHz span, better flexibility in controlling both VFO A and VFO B, etc.

In the meantime, one workaround is to leave the K3 in CWT mode, click on the P3 signal and then tap SPOT for auto-tuning. However this still takes two keystrokes and requires that you at least get the signal inside your filter passband. I believe the P3 may eventually allow automatically sending the SPOT command to the K3 with its QSY command, but there are probably better ways to do this.

I know Alan is very aware of this need and we'll just have to wait to see what he comes up with.

73, Bill

Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by The Smiths

Good advice, I'll try enabling Peak and see if I can line the marker
up better that way.

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:04 AM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Actually, after you posted that on the reflector last night I went back to
> the P3 and I put my span at 50KHz and I did a BUNCH of QSY to and from the
> zero beat of a signal. I was generally able to park myself within about
> 10Hz of the Center. A quick push of the SPOT button brought me right to
> Zero Beat with the signal. I did this with both weak signals and with loud
> ones (dark red lines).
> Of course this is ONLY because I painstakingly took the time to find and
> properly set my Center mark before doing the final Ref Cal Alighment.
> As you have already figured out, it's VERY important to let the P3 warm up
> sufficiently due to it's excessive drifting before doing the REF-Cal
> alignment. After that you should be able to get yourself somewhat close.
>
> I think that the key to getting it so accurate, Bob, is to use your Peak
> meter.. Once a signal is present on the Audio display, and you can see below
> that it's a cw signal, if you line the A marker up with the displayed Peak
> of the signal that's stuck there, you can pretty much nail it. If you're
> trying to QSY to a signal by lining it up with only the Waterfall line as it
> comes down, or even worse, by using the Audio scope WITHOUT the peak on,
> you'll never get close.. That becomes a guessing game.
> I'm still VERY much in favor of your idea to have a Scrub feature once you
> QSY, thereby using the Select knob as a way to drag the VFO around until you
> have Zero beat the signal both on the rig, and on the display. Then exit the
> Scub mode returning the A/B marker.
>
> Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER"
> alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to
> be within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys
> that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This would
> allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero Beat, and
> not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow to the CW
> guys.
>
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:33:27 -0600
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>>
>> Can you really do much better than +/- 100-200 Hz using a 50 kHz span?
>> That requires a marker placement accuracy of +/- 2 pixels, a 4 pixel
>> window, which is less than 1% of the width of the display (4/480 =
>> 0.25%). If so, I must concede that you're a much better marksman than
>> I am!
>>
>> The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when
>> using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could
>> see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might,
>> when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside
>> the passband of my 400 Hz filter. At 70 kHz each pixel represents a
>> 150 Hz bin (approx) so I'm off by even 2 pixels I'm outside the filter
>> passband. Jumping from signal to signal within a wide panadaptor span
>> would be easier with a fine tune feature, and work for SSB signals as
>> well as CW.
>>
>> I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode
>> with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for
>> extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar
>> functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion.
>>
>> "Snap Tune" is an interesting idea too.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Bob NW8L
>>
>

Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

Wow. Better hand-eye coordination I guess.

Yes, I would prefer that the marker be only 1 pixel wide also.

An auto-spot-on-QSY feature would be sufficient for CW use I suppose.

I'll just try harder in the interim. I did receive a postcard recently
from my optometrist, reminding me that I was due for an eye exam. I
think I may need to get over there right away!

Bob NW8L

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Bob Cunnings [via Elecraft] <
> [hidden email]<ml-node%[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>
>>
>> The idea is to make life easier when cruising around the band when
>> using a *wide* span. Earlier today I opened it up to 70 kHz so I could
>> see +/- 35 kHz whilst listening around 7.040 Mhz and try as I might,
>> when I used the marker to select a CW signal I often ended up outside
>> the passband of my 400 Hz filter.
>
>
> I decided to try the same on 20m since 40m is relatively dead here. Using a
> 70 kHz SPAN and 400 Hz filter, after QSY I had NO signals falling outside my
> passband. I don't know what we're doing differently but I am simply
> aligning MKR A (in the Spectrum display only) which is 2 pixels wide with
> the signals in the Waterfall display directly below. I adjust REF LVL such
> that the waterfall background is relatively dark and weak signals are 1
> pixel wide. I don't find it hard to align these but would actually prefer
> if MKR was 1 pixel wide instead of 2 (and I've told Alan that).
>
> I guess I'm spoiled by using the mouse in point/click/fine tune mode
>> with LP-Pan/PowerSDR-IF in a 96 kHz span where there is no need for
>> extreme accuracy in pointing, it's fast and easy. I think similar
>> functionality would enhance the P3, just a suggestion.
>>
>
> I don't care for PowerSDR but I do use CW Skimmer's waterfall. The
> advantage is that clicking on a decoder dot in Skimmer takes you to the
> *exact* zero-beat frequency. The downside is that Skimmer's "Softrock on
> IF" mode (which is what must be used on the K3) is limited to 24 kHz spans
> (although Page Up and Down allows you to jump these spans up or down the
> band quickly). IMHO the really unique advantage of Skimmer is that you can
> jump from one decoder dot to the next by simply using Up or Down arrows on
> the keyboard. This makes for extremely fast S&Ping up or down the band in
> contests. CT1BOH first described this below:
>
> http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/skimmertalk/2008-November/000191.html
>
> This is perfectly legal for unassisted categories since Skimmer's Blind Mode
> is not displaying decoded calls.
>
> If the P3 can be made to do something similar this would overcome this
> weakness relative to Skimmer. The P3 has many other advantages such as 200
> kHz span, better flexibility in controlling both VFO A and VFO B, etc.
>
> In the meantime, one workaround is to leave the K3 in CWT mode, click on the
> P3 signal and then tap SPOT for auto-tuning. However this still takes two
> keystrokes and requires that you at least get the signal inside your filter
> passband. I believe the P3 may eventually allow automatically sending the
> SPOT command to the K3 with its QSY command, but there are probably better
> ways to do this.
>
> I know Alan is very aware of this need and we'll just have to wait to see
> what he comes up with.
>
> 73, Bill
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5413246.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Bill W4ZV

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by The Smiths

The Smiths wrote

Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER" alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to be within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This would allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero Beat, and not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow to the CW guys.

You may not be doing Reference Calibration correctly if you are using the digital frequency readout on the P3. You don't need anything except the Spectrum display (step 5 below). From page 19 of the manual:

Frequency Calibration

Turn on the transceiver and P3 and allow
them to warm up for 30 minutes, minimum,
before performing the calibration.

1. If the transceiver has a calibration procedure to
correct its frequency errors, perform that
procedure first.

2. Using a well-calibrated signal generator or an
on-the air carrier signal of known frequency,
tune in the signal on the transceiver. An A.M.
broadcast station can serve as a suitable test
signal.

3. Adjust the transceiver frequency to the known
frequency of the test signal. Depending upon
the modulation mode of the transceiver, the
signal may not be audible.

4. Set the P3 for minimum span and adjust the
reference level and scale so you can easily see
the signal.

5. Select MENU:Ref Cal, tap the SELECT
knob, and adjust the frequency calibration until
the carrier is centered horizontally on the
display. If the required correction is more than a
few kHz, it may be that the I.F. frequency is set
incorrectly. That can be adjusted via
MENU:Xcvr Def.

The P3's Ref Cal steps in the menu are 10 Hz but that's close enough for accurately QSYing to even a 50 Hz bandwidth.

73, Bill

The Smiths

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

Bill,

I'm going to try to be as least condescending as I can. Please forgive me if I go astray. I tend to get very snippety when I'm being treated as if I'm dumb...

Before you can even begin to set the Ref-Cal on the P3 you must FIRST know that the center line on the P3 is actually the center of the Freq. it is displaying. I'm sure by seeing your answer to my email that this is something that has completely alluded you. What you are suggesting, and the manual for that matter, is that what ever the display says is the center Freq. is going to be an accurate reading. This is just plain and outright ridiculous. If you have taken the time to really think about what is going on here you would come to the realization that there is only 1 ONE digit after the KHz freq. display on the P3 Center line (IE 10.000.0)

If you look at the centering adjustment for the P3 you will notice that the display will NOT change from the 10.000.0 position until you reach the 10.000.1 (+100Hz) or 9.999.9 (-100Hz) frequency. Therefore logic dictates that if you try to adjust a center and just arbitrarily use any position between 10.000.1 and 9.999.9 as your center you have a 1 in 100Hz chance of being centered on the Zero beat of WWV in this case (10.000.000 being the center carrier freq. of wwv in the USA. Not 10.000.099).

In other words, this means that if you were to even attempt to adjust your Ref-cal alignment on the P3 before finding the best "FUZZY" center of 10.000.000 you can, your REF-CAL alignment will NEVER be closer than the center you have set it to. So, now adding both the complete inaccuracy of the "Center alignment" of up to 100Hz, and the best possible marker accuracy of 5Hz (in the 2KHz span), you can NEVER set the P3 closer than 5Hz with any actual accuracy. And That of of course would require you making a really really good guesstimation of where the Fuzzy Center on the P3 is by finding the highest number before the flip, and the lowest number before the flip from 10.000.0, then moving the select knob to as close a center of each as you can.

Would you put your K3 on 10.000.0, turning off the extra 2 digits and try to set your Config: Ref-Cal alignment to Zero beat WWV? Because this is exactly what you are suggesting others do by telling them that the "Center" alignment has nothing to do with the Ref Cal alignment on the P3.
Elecraft has GOT TO add those two other digits into the display if anyone is going to have an accurate centering of their P3 before they do the Ref Cal alignment. This is IMPERATIVE to the CW operator that relies on being able to use 50Hz wide filters.

This is forgetting the fact that on 3 of the units I have helped align so far they have ALL been off frequency with both Center and Ref Cal by as much as -300. Well, -160 when first turned on, -220 about a half hour later, and then -300 about an hour later. The drift is incredible on the P3, a .05 or even 1ppm crystal it does not have.
I would suggest to EVERYONE that has the P3 they wait AT LEAST and hour (assuming you generally use your P3 for more than an hour when you operate it on a normal day) before setting their REF Cal alignment. But without doubt, before you do that, make sure that you know the center mark on your P3 is actually the center you're looking for.

I think it's time for the manual to change how the alignment has been written, not how I'm doing my alignment. Thank you.

> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:08:04 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>
>
>
> The Smiths wrote:
> >
> > Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER"
> > alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to be
> > within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys
> > that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This
> > would allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero
> > Beat, and not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow
> > to the CW guys.
> >
>
> You may not be doing Reference Calibration correctly if you are using the
> digital frequency readout on the P3. You don't need anything except the
> Spectrum display (step 5 below). From page 19 of the manual:
>
> Frequency Calibration
>
> Turn on the transceiver and P3 and allow
> them to warm up for 30 minutes, minimum,
> before performing the calibration.
>
> 1. If the transceiver has a calibration procedure to
> correct its frequency errors, perform that
> procedure first.
>
> 2. Using a well-calibrated signal generator or an
> on-the air carrier signal of known frequency,
> tune in the signal on the transceiver. An A.M.
> broadcast station can serve as a suitable test
> signal.
>
> 3. Adjust the transceiver frequency to the known
> frequency of the test signal. Depending upon
> the modulation mode of the transceiver, the
> signal may not be audible.
>
> 4. Set the P3 for minimum span and adjust the
> reference level and scale so you can easily see
> the signal.
>
> 5. Select MENU:Ref Cal, tap the SELECT
> knob, and adjust the frequency calibration until
> the carrier is centered horizontally on the
> display. If the required correction is more than a
> few kHz, it may be that the I.F. frequency is set
> incorrectly. That can be adjusted via
> MENU:Xcvr Def.
>
> The P3's Ref Cal steps in the menu are 10 Hz but that's close enough for
> accurately QSYing to even a 50 Hz bandwidth.
>
> 73, Bill
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5413530.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Brett Howard

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

The center follows the K3 you can tell where it is based on the fact
that there is a K3 next to you. So long as you've got the two synced
and don't have a center offset in you know where the center is.

~Brett (N7MG)

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:19 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Bill,
>
> I'm going to try to be as least condescending as I can. Please forgive me if I go astray. I tend to get very snippety when I'm being treated as if I'm dumb...
>
> Before you can even begin to set the Ref-Cal on the P3 you must FIRST know that the center line on the P3 is actually the center of the Freq. it is displaying. I'm sure by seeing your answer to my email that this is something that has completely alluded you. What you are suggesting, and the manual for that matter, is that what ever the display says is the center Freq. is going to be an accurate reading. This is just plain and outright ridiculous. If you have taken the time to really think about what is going on here you would come to the realization that there is only 1 ONE digit after the KHz freq. display on the P3 Center line (IE 10.000.0)
>
> If you look at the centering adjustment for the P3 you will notice that the display will NOT change from the 10.000.0 position until you reach the 10.000.1 (+100Hz) or 9.999.9 (-100Hz) frequency. Therefore logic dictates that if you try to adjust a center and just arbitrarily use any position between 10.000.1 and 9.999.9 as your center you have a 1 in 100Hz chance of being centered on the Zero beat of WWV in this case (10.000.000 being the center carrier freq. of wwv in the USA. Not 10.000.099).
>
> In other words, this means that if you were to even attempt to adjust your Ref-cal alignment on the P3 before finding the best "FUZZY" center of 10.000.000 you can, your REF-CAL alignment will NEVER be closer than the center you have set it to. So, now adding both the complete inaccuracy of the "Center alignment" of up to 100Hz, and the best possible marker accuracy of 5Hz (in the 2KHz span), you can NEVER set the P3 closer than 5Hz with any actual accuracy. And That of of course would require you making a really really good guesstimation of where the Fuzzy Center on the P3 is by finding the highest number before the flip, and the lowest number before the flip from 10.000.0, then moving the select knob to as close a center of each as you can.
>
> Would you put your K3 on 10.000.0, turning off the extra 2 digits and try to set your Config: Ref-Cal alignment to Zero beat WWV? Because this is exactly what you are suggesting others do by telling them that the "Center" alignment has nothing to do with the Ref Cal alignment on the P3.
> Elecraft has GOT TO add those two other digits into the display if anyone is going to have an accurate centering of their P3 before they do the Ref Cal alignment. This is IMPERATIVE to the CW operator that relies on being able to use 50Hz wide filters.
>
> This is forgetting the fact that on 3 of the units I have helped align so far they have ALL been off frequency with both Center and Ref Cal by as much as -300. Well, -160 when first turned on, -220 about a half hour later, and then -300 about an hour later. The drift is incredible on the P3, a .05 or even 1ppm crystal it does not have.
> I would suggest to EVERYONE that has the P3 they wait AT LEAST and hour (assuming you generally use your P3 for more than an hour when you operate it on a normal day) before setting their REF Cal alignment. But without doubt, before you do that, make sure that you know the center mark on your P3 is actually the center you're looking for.
>
> I think it's time for the manual to change how the alignment has been written, not how I'm doing my alignment. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 12:08:04 -0700
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>>
>>
>>
>> The Smiths wrote:
>> >
>> > Because the accuracy of the display readout when doing the "CENTER"
>> > alignment is short by 2 digits, it causes the centering of the P3 to be
>> > within only 100Hz of the actual center. It is imperative to the CW guys
>> > that the extra 2 digits be displayed on the Top center read out. This
>> > would allow us to both CENTER and REF CAL our WWV carrier right on Zero
>> > Beat, and not just within 100Hz. Right now this is the most crippling blow
>> > to the CW guys.
>> >
>>
>> You may not be doing Reference Calibration correctly if you are using the
>> digital frequency readout on the P3. You don't need anything except the
>> Spectrum display (step 5 below). From page 19 of the manual:
>>
>> Frequency Calibration
>>
>> Turn on the transceiver and P3 and allow
>> them to warm up for 30 minutes, minimum,
>> before performing the calibration.
>>
>> 1. If the transceiver has a calibration procedure to
>> correct its frequency errors, perform that
>> procedure first.
>>
>> 2. Using a well-calibrated signal generator or an
>> on-the air carrier signal of known frequency,
>> tune in the signal on the transceiver. An A.M.
>> broadcast station can serve as a suitable test
>> signal.
>>
>> 3. Adjust the transceiver frequency to the known
>> frequency of the test signal. Depending upon
>> the modulation mode of the transceiver, the
>> signal may not be audible.
>>
>> 4. Set the P3 for minimum span and adjust the
>> reference level and scale so you can easily see
>> the signal.
>>
>> 5. Select MENU:Ref Cal, tap the SELECT
>> knob, and adjust the frequency calibration until
>> the carrier is centered horizontally on the
>> display. If the required correction is more than a
>> few kHz, it may be that the I.F. frequency is set
>> incorrectly. That can be adjusted via
>> MENU:Xcvr Def.
>>
>> The P3's Ref Cal steps in the menu are 10 Hz but that's close enough for
>> accurately QSYing to even a 50 Hz bandwidth.
>>
>> 73, Bill
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5413530.html
>> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

The Smiths

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be 100Hz apart from each other.
Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999 before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and the P3 are not in sync to the Hz.

Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off.
Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal.
You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more.

I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the center that you just calibrated it to.
You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been discussing this.

The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do, and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all indicate it.
I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center, then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the center display freq.
This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and setting up the Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way if you didn't know that your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000.

You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, and I'm not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free to contact me off the reflector if you need me to explain further. That goes for Alan as well, I would love to talk with you and explain what's going on here if my explanation doesn't make sense to you.

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> To: [hidden email]
>
> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3 to
> tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra precision
> on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last post. I
> think you're over analyzing it and making it more complicated than it
> needs to be. Its not that hard to understand whats going on there I
> think most hams would get it. Those who don't get it its probably not
> important to.
>
> ~Brett (N7MG)
>

Brett Howard

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

My P3 shows a rounded version of what is on the K3 when they are
synced. When my K3 says 7.100.000 the P3 shows 7.100.0 when I go to
7.100.050 it goes to 7.100.1 its a rounded version. So when my P3 and
K3 are synced (by simply pressing center twice) I can read the
frequency on the K3 and know that is the frequency that the P3 is on.
I simply set the K3 to 10.000.000 and then do the ref cal on the P3.

~Brett (N7MG)

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:09 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically
> sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and
> usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can
> move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER"
> adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until
> you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that
> SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be
> 100Hz apart from each other.
> Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999
> before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and
> the P3 are not in sync to the Hz.
>
> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it
> does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3
> reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be
> 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as
> close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off.
> Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3
> display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra
> 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal.
> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set
> correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by
> that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more.
>
> I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the
> sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz
> accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going
> to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the
> center that you just calibrated it to.
> You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on
> here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been
> discussing this.
>
> The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind
> coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do,
> and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a
> difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The
> accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all
> indicate it.
> I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this
> friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use.
> He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center,
> then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the
> center display freq.
> This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and setting up the
> Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way if you
> didn't know that your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000.
>
> You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, and I'm
> not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free to contact me
> off the reflector if you need me to explain further. That goes for Alan as
> well, I would love to talk with you and explain what's going on here if my
> explanation doesn't make sense to you.
>
>
>
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>> To: [hidden email]
>>
>> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3 to
>> tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra precision
>> on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last post. I
>> think you're over analyzing it and making it more complicated than it
>> needs to be. Its not that hard to understand whats going on there I
>> think most hams would get it. Those who don't get it its probably not
>> important to.
>>
>> ~Brett (N7MG)
>>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by The Smiths

> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't
> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line
> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz.

You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz from the
K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the "Center
Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center" again.
The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3 frequency ...
the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show 10.000.0 from
9.999.950 to 10.000.049).

> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say
> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob
> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm
> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100.

No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as I just
explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version (not
truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center frequency
to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process as
documented in the manual.

> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been
> set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out
> of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses
> things more.

If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the manual and
use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz, you will
get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the order
of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the instructions
from those who designed the product and stop trying to argue.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/12/2010 2:09 AM, The Smiths wrote:

>
> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't
> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line
> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter
> how you look at it, if you can move a Center position on the P3 with
> the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode, and it doesn't
> change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to 10.000.1 or
> down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing
> between those two positions which just happen to be 100Hz apart from
> each other. Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down
> to 9.999.999 before the display on the P3 center line changes, than
> obviously the K3 and the P3 are not in sync to the Hz.
>
> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say
> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob
> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm
> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and
> that's after I set that center as close as possible. My rig
> displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. Take your VFO move it down
> until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 display? Mine says
> 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra 2 digits in
> order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. You
> just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set
> correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of
> wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses
> things more.
>
> I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head
> in the sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3
> with 000Hz accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY
> button you are going to move the CENTER of that carrier on the
> display as far or as close to the center that you just calibrated it
> to. You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just
> come on here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since
> we've been discussing this.
>
> The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't
> mind coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW,
> but I do, and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz
> filter on it makes a difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys
> in mind, NOT cw guys. The accuracy of the center display, and the
> tremendous warm up drift all indicate it. I love my P3, and I'm
> having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this friendly to the
> CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. He's
> going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center,
> then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to
> the center display freq. This is NO different that putting your K3
> on 10.000.000 and setting up the Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal.
> You just wouldn't do it that way if you didn't know that your K3
> wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000.
>
> You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts,
> and I'm not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free
> to contact me off the reflector if you need me to explain further.
> That goes for Alan as well, I would love to talk with you and
> explain what's going on here if my explanation doesn't make sense to
> you.
>
>
>
>
>> From: [hidden email] Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY To:
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3
>> to tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra
>> precision on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last
>> post. I think you're over analyzing it and making it more
>> complicated than it needs to be. Its not that hard to understand
>> whats going on there I think most hams would get it. Those who
>> don't get it its probably not important to.
>>
>> ~Brett (N7MG)
>>
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Bill W4ZV

P3 Reference Calibraton Error

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

Brett Howard wrote

The center follows the K3 you can tell where it is based on the fact
that there is a K3 next to you. So long as you've got the two synced
and don't have a center offset in you know where the center is.

Correct. I believe his confusion is thinking the P3 display is controlling the K3, but it's actually the other way around.

1. First calibrate the K3 to WWV using the K3 Manual procedure. With a good ear (or other methods) you can do this to <<1 Hz. The K3 should be reading 15.000.000 with FINE resolution and you should hear no beating or change in pitch when switching between UCW and LCW.

2. The P3's Center line tracks the K3 so P3 CF is exactly indicating the K3's frequency (15.000.000) even though the display is rounded (i.e. 15.000.0). So far we have not touched our P3 at all.

3. Next calibrate the P3's spectrum display per the manual procedure by using Ref Cal to shift the spectrum display so that it centers on the center line. Use the minimum SPAN (2.0 kHz) and adjust Ref Cal in 10 Hz steps until the spectrum display is best aligned on the center line. I find this easiest to do if you set SCALE = 10 and adjust REF LVL so the signal peak is mid-scale in the P3 display. Adjust Ref Cal so the signal shoulders are symmetrical about the center, or as close to symmetrical as possible, given the 10 Hz adjustment resolution.

Potential sources of error are:

1. Drift in K3 reference oscillator (49.38 MHz).
2. Drift in P3 reference oscillator (60 MHz).
3. Adjustment resolution of the P3's Ref Cal steps. Adjustment steps are 10 Hz (at the P3's 60 MHz clock). At WWV's 15 MHz (1/4 of 60 MHz), each adjustment step is 1/4 of 10 Hz = 2.5 Hz, which results in a maximum 1/2 step uncertainty (1.25 Hz) in adjustment resolution when centering the P3 display.

The P3's adjustment error (e.g. 1.25 Hz at 15 MHz) is accurate enough to easily hit 50 Hz bandwidth filters when using the minimum SPAN (even assuming some reference oscillator drift).

There may be other minor rounding errors in the DSP but I'll let the nit-pickers argue over that.

73, Bill

Bill W4ZV

Re: P3 Reference Calibraton Error

Bill W4ZV wrote

3. Adjustment resolution of the P3's Ref Cal steps. Adjustment steps are 10 Hz (at the P3's 60 MHz clock). At WWV's 15 MHz (1/4 of 60 MHz), each adjustment step is 1/4 of 10 Hz = 2.5 Hz, which results in a maximum 1/2 step uncertainty (1.25 Hz) in adjustment resolution when centering the P3 display.

Both Al's previous post which I missed and a PM from Lyle correct the above:

"The P3 is dealing with the 8.215 kHz IF frequency regardless of the signal frequency that is displayed on the center of the screen, so the steps are more like ((8.215/60)*10=) 1.4 Hz."

73, Bill

The Smiths

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then... That still wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it.

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:15:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
>
> My P3 shows a rounded version of what is on the K3 when they are
> synced. When my K3 says 7.100.000 the P3 shows 7.100.0 when I go to
> 7.100.050 it goes to 7.100.1 its a rounded version. So when my P3 and
> K3 are synced (by simply pressing center twice) I can read the
> frequency on the K3 and know that is the frequency that the P3 is on.
> I simply set the K3 to 10.000.000 and then do the ref cal on the P3.
>
> ~Brett (N7MG)
>
> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:09 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically
> > sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and
> > usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can
> > move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER"
> > adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until
> > you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that
> > SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be
> > 100Hz apart from each other.
> > Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999
> > before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and
> > the P3 are not in sync to the Hz.
> >
> > Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
> > 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it
> > does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3
> > reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be
> > 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as
> > close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off.
> > Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3
> > display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra
> > 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal.
> > You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set
> > correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by
> > that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more.
> >
> > I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the
> > sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz
> > accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going
> > to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the
> > center that you just calibrated it to.
> > You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on
> > here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been
> > discussing this.
> >
> > The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind
> > coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do,
> > and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a
> > difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The
> > accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all
> > indicate it.
> > I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this
> > friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use.
> > He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center,
> > then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the
> > center display freq.
> > This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and setting up the
> > Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way if you
> > didn't know that your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000.
> >
> > You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, and I'm
> > not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free to contact me
> > off the reflector if you need me to explain further. That goes for Alan as
> > well, I would love to talk with you and explain what's going on here if my
> > explanation doesn't make sense to you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >>
> >> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3 to
> >> tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra precision
> >> on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last post. I
> >> think you're over analyzing it and making it more complicated than it
> >> needs to be. Its not that hard to understand whats going on there I
> >> think most hams would get it. Those who don't get it its probably not
> >> important to.
> >>
> >> ~Brett (N7MG)
> >>
> >