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P3: a modest proposal for QSY

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The Smiths

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

I agree with you for once Joe... 50Hz sounds right. If you Ref cal from that point than you'll most likely be 4 to 5Hz off. I've not once been able to get it to 1Hz resolution. Yes, this is enough to hit the spot button, but having the extra two digits would be very helpful.

> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:58:27 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>
>
> > You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't
> > automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line
> > on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz.
>
> You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz from the
> K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the "Center
> Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center" again.
> The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3 frequency ...
> the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show 10.000.0 from
> 9.999.950 to 10.000.049).
>
> > Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
> > 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say
> > that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob
> > up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm
> > sure it's not going to be 10.000.100.
>
> No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as I just
> explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version (not
> truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center frequency
> to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process as
> documented in the manual.
>
> > You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been
> > set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out
> > of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses
> > things more.
>
> If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the manual and
> use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz, you will
> get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the order
> of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the instructions
> from those who designed the product and stop trying to argue.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 8/12/2010 2:09 AM, The Smiths wrote:
> >
> > You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't
> > automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line
> > on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter
> > how you look at it, if you can move a Center position on the P3 with
> > the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode, and it doesn't
> > change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to 10.000.1 or
> > down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing
> > between those two positions which just happen to be 100Hz apart from
> > each other. Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down
> > to 9.999.999 before the display on the P3 center line changes, than
> > obviously the K3 and the P3 are not in sync to the Hz.
> >
> > Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
> > 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say
> > that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob
> > up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm
> > sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and
> > that's after I set that center as close as possible. My rig
> > displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. Take your VFO move it down
> > until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 display? Mine says
> > 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra 2 digits in
> > order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. You
> > just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set
> > correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of
> > wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses
> > things more.
> >
> > I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head
> > in the sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3
> > with 000Hz accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY
> > button you are going to move the CENTER of that carrier on the
> > display as far or as close to the center that you just calibrated it
> > to. You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just
> > come on here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since
> > we've been discussing this.
> >
> > The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't
> > mind coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW,
> > but I do, and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz
> > filter on it makes a difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys
> > in mind, NOT cw guys. The accuracy of the center display, and the
> > tremendous warm up drift all indicate it. I love my P3, and I'm
> > having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this friendly to the
> > CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. He's
> > going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center,
> > then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to
> > the center display freq. This is NO different that putting your K3
> > on 10.000.000 and setting up the Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal.
> > You just wouldn't do it that way if you didn't know that your K3
> > wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000.
> >
> > You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts,
> > and I'm not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free
> > to contact me off the reflector if you need me to explain further.
> > That goes for Alan as well, I would love to talk with you and
> > explain what's going on here if my explanation doesn't make sense to
> > you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: [hidden email] Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY To:
> >> [hidden email]
> >>
> >> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3
> >> to tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra
> >> precision on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last
> >> post. I think you're over analyzing it and making it more
> >> complicated than it needs to be. Its not that hard to understand
> >> whats going on there I think most hams would get it. Those who
> >> don't get it its probably not important to.
> >>
> >> ~Brett (N7MG)
> >>
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list Home:
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:
> > mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
> > email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

This is an excellent point.

Thank you for illustrating it. With a narrow filter, 100Hz
resolution does not cut it in CW, although W4TV's proposed
CWT "macro magic" will work around it, that is, if we could
learn what the macro definitions would be with a programming
manual. :)

I would like to know if this frequency resolution issue,
along with the line cursor thickness and placement, the
memory "permanence" issues and the Programming Manual
Release are on the product roadmap schedule and will be
addressed in future releases of firmware before I place a P3
on my family's Christmas Present list.

I also agree with a previous poster that it would be
"helpful" if the markers tallied the VFO selections and some
of the params from the rig were displayed on the P3 screen.
My station layout is identical to his, with the planned
deployment of the P3 in the center, the computer monitor
above it, the K3 to the right and the computer keyboard
directly below it.

Although I could rationalize the lack of a screen "repeater"
of the K3 parameters because I can see those same parameters
(filter settings, frequency, VFO selections) on the computer
logger screen...

The biggie for me is the resolution and line
thickness/orientation issues. Im glad you guys are finding
them ad are clearly defining them here.

Thank you, brave pioneers, for geting there before me! You
seem to wear the arrows in your back rather well.

-lu-w4lt-

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:09:23 +0000
From: The Smiths <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
To: <[hidden email]>, Elecraft Reflector
<[hidden email]>
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't
automatically sync with
the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be
and usually is off by as
much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can move
a Center position on the
P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode,
and it doesn't
change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to
10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9
than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing between
those two positions which
just happen to be 100Hz apart from each other.
Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to
9.999.999 before the
display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3
and the P3 are not in
sync to the Hz.

Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig,
put it on 10.000.000 Now
look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it
does (according to you it
should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3 reads
10.000.1. Where is your K3
displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I
know mine sure isn't, and
that's after I set that center as close as possible. My rig
displays 10.000.042.
That's 58Hz off.
Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What
does your K3 display? Mine
says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the
extra 2 digits in order to
set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal.
You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has
been set correctly. If
you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by
that much difference.
Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more.

I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting
your head in the sand and
pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with
000Hz accuracy. When you
center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going to
move the CENTER of that
carrier on the display as far or as close to the center that
you just calibrated it
to.
You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't
just come on here and
said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've
been discussing this.

The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys
that don't mind coming
within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW,
but I do, and when I land
80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a
difference. The P3 was
designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The accuracy
of the center display, and
the tremendous warm up drift all indicate it.
I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants
to make this friendly to
the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys
use. He's going to have to
1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center, then
the Ref-cal alignments, and
then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the center display freq.
This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and
setting up the Zero beat
on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way
if you didn't know that
your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000.

You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my
facts, and I'm not going
to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free to contact
me off the reflector if
you need me to explain further. That goes for Alan as well,
I would love to talk
with you and explain what's going on here if my explanation
doesn't make sense to
you.

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> To: [hidden email]
>
> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read
the K3 to
> tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the
extra precision
> on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last
post. I
> think you're over analyzing it and making it more
complicated than it
> needs to be. Its not that hard to understand whats going
on there I
> think most hams would get it. Those who don't get it its
probably not
> important to.
>
> ~Brett (N7MG)

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Guy, K2AV

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by The Smiths

Actually...

In a CW contest, where following packet spots can put you on the exact
same frequency with all the other braying lemmings, contributing to
your signal's non-pickoutable status at the other end, being off the
crowd frequency by 20-50 hertz is a SUCCESSFUL strategy to break
through the pile, practiced ON PURPOSE by top CW contest operators. If
you are following CW packet spots, best to set your XIT up or down
20-30 Hz and leave it there. DON'T ever use zero offset chasing CW
packet spots. (It will NOT bother me in the LEAST if all those who
read this think such an assertion is nonsense and never try it out. I
have outlined one of my competitive edge secrets, and I WON'T mind if
you DON'T use it.)

So being within 50 Hz is QUITE adequate and USEFUL. And despite given
what seems to be being played as some failure of the P3, one DOES
still have the K3 tuning knob to very quickly adjust to perfect
centering for RTTY, and digital modes. On the K3, it's the big
easy-to-use same-size-as-the-maxi-boxes knob. For other transceivers,
consult owner's manual for location and instructions for tuning knob.

50 Hz off will still be within the audible passband on the NARROWEST
K3 passband setting. Most contesters will use something like 200 or
250 for search and pounce, especially for chasing packet spots. Many
of these spots will be off 100 or 200 Hz, in addition to carrying
blown calls, which is why the need for a quite wider bandwidth than 50
Hz for any kind of search and pounce operation.

As I have sort of been on the fence as to usefulness of a P3, you have
convinced me that a SPECTRUM DISPLAY, of all things, can be SO
ACCURATE, that by dropping the K3 to within 50 Hz of a VERY sharp
display blip, I would hear the blip station even if I forgot to back
off 50 Hz selectivity before QSY.

In contrast to your presentation that the 50 Hz is some kind of
failure, inattention to proper level of details or some such, you may
have sold the P3 to a long time cranky hard-to-convince,
uses-narrow-filter-settings-all-the-time CW contester, who probably
wasn't going to buy one.

Fixing the P3 50 Hz "problem" is probably one of these
how-many-angels-fit-on-the-head-of-a-pin controversies with a solution
that doesn't appear to warrant serious Elecraft business development
money when other good stuff is on the way.

But thanks for the dissertation, folks.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 12:28 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then... That still wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it.
______________________________________________________________
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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

So now I am getting a much better understanding...

What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50
cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
acceptable.

However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON
the signal I have selected.

I have never operated a LP-Pan, but can I assume that it
will function just like the Flex (it is the same software
front end after all)?

And Skimmer's waterfall display is also just as accurate.

This means that if I am a "shoot fish in a barrel" mult
operator and are combing the band for signals, I would be
much more efficient time wise using a Flex/LP-Pan or a
Skimmer than using a P3 on my K3, even with the Macro Magic
CWT solution, right? The upside is that no computer is
needed (which is a non trivial thing, IMO).

Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the
above systems?

-lu-w4lt-

Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:58:27 -0400
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3
doesn't
> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The
Center line
> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz.

You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz
from the
K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the
"Center
Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center"
again.
The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3
frequency ...
the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show
10.000.0 from
9.999.950 to 10.000.049).

> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig,
put it on
> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0.
Let's say
> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your
VFO knob
> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3
displaying? I'm
> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100.

No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as
I just
explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version
(not
truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center
frequency
to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process
as
documented in the manual.

> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center
has been
> set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have
EVERYTHING out
> of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just
confuses
> things more.

If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the
manual and
use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz,
you will
get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the
order
of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the
instructions
from those who designed the product and stop trying to
argue.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Brett Howard

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

No what is going on is the P3 only displays one decimal point after
Khz. Its dead on and it knows what the actual frequency is its just
that it rounds it to save a little space at the center of the display.
Move your eyes over to the radio or your logging software and you get
a full readout of the same frequency from the same source the P3 is
collecting it (the radio). Its not that you're off frequency its just
that you're seeing a rounded copy of it on the P3. However once you
center the P3 on the radios frequency you know that the P3 and the
radio are in sync with one another and on the same frequency.

~Brett (N7MG)

On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Lu Romero <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So now I am getting a much better understanding...
>
> What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50
> cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
> calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
> acceptable.
>
> However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON
> the signal I have selected.
>
> I have never operated a LP-Pan, but can I assume that it
> will function just like the Flex (it is the same software
> front end after all)?
>
> And Skimmer's waterfall display is also just as accurate.
>
> This means that if I am a "shoot fish in a barrel" mult
> operator and are combing the band for signals, I would be
> much more efficient time wise using a Flex/LP-Pan or a
> Skimmer than using a P3 on my K3, even with the Macro Magic
> CWT solution, right? The upside is that no computer is
> needed (which is a non trivial thing, IMO).
>
> Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the
> above systems?
>
> -lu-w4lt-
>
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:58:27 -0400
> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
> To: [hidden email]
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3
> doesn't
>> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The
> Center line
>> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz.
>
> You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz
> from the
> K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the
> "Center
> Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center"
> again.
> The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3
> frequency ...
> the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show
> 10.000.0 from
> 9.999.950 to 10.000.049).
>
>> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig,
> put it on
>> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0.
> Let's say
>> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your
> VFO knob
>> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3
> displaying? I'm
>> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100.
>
> No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as
> I just
> explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version
> (not
> truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center
> frequency
> to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process
> as
> documented in the manual.
>
>> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center
> has been
>> set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have
> EVERYTHING out
>> of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just
> confuses
>> things more.
>
> If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the
> manual and
> use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz,
> you will
> get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the
> order
> of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the
> instructions
> from those who designed the product and stop trying to
> argue.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by The Smiths

> Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then...
> That still wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it.

50 Hz is only the accuracy of the readout. Set Span to 2 KHz and
move MKR A ... you will notice it moves with much finer resolution
than 100 Hz steps. With a span of 50 KHz I can see 10 Hz steps in
the frequency sent to the K3 when tapping the select knob. With a
100 KHz span, 50 Hz accuracy/resolution on select seems easy.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/12/2010 12:28 PM, The Smiths wrote:

>
> Fair enough, so lets say that you're within 50Hz accuracy then... That still wouldn't QSY you to the Zero Beat on CW would it.
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:15:02 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>>
>> My P3 shows a rounded version of what is on the K3 when they are
>> synced. When my K3 says 7.100.000 the P3 shows 7.100.0 when I go to
>> 7.100.050 it goes to 7.100.1 its a rounded version. So when my P3 and
>> K3 are synced (by simply pressing center twice) I can read the
>> frequency on the K3 and know that is the frequency that the P3 is on.
>> I simply set the K3 to 10.000.000 and then do the ref cal on the P3.
>>
>> ~Brett (N7MG)
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:09 PM, The Smiths<[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't automatically
>>> sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line on the P3 CAN be and
>>> usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter how you look at it, if you can
>>> move a Center position on the P3 with the select knob in the "CENTER"
>>> adjustment mode, and it doesn't change from the reading of 10.000.0 until
>>> you get up to 10.000.1 or down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that
>>> SOMETHING is changing between those two positions which just happen to be
>>> 100Hz apart from each other.
>>> Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down to 9.999.999
>>> before the display on the P3 center line changes, than obviously the K3 and
>>> the P3 are not in sync to the Hz.
>>>
>>> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
>>> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say that it
>>> does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob up until the P3
>>> reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm sure it's not going to be
>>> 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and that's after I set that center as
>>> close as possible. My rig displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off.
>>> Take your VFO move it down until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3
>>> display? Mine says 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra
>>> 2 digits in order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal.
>>> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set
>>> correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of wack by
>>> that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses things more.
>>>
>>> I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head in the
>>> sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3 with 000Hz
>>> accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY button you are going
>>> to move the CENTER of that carrier on the display as far or as close to the
>>> center that you just calibrated it to.
>>> You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just come on
>>> here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since we've been
>>> discussing this.
>>>
>>> The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't mind
>>> coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW, but I do,
>>> and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz filter on it makes a
>>> difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys in mind, NOT cw guys. The
>>> accuracy of the center display, and the tremendous warm up drift all
>>> indicate it.
>>> I love my P3, and I'm having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this
>>> friendly to the CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use.
>>> He's going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center,
>>> then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to the
>>> center display freq.
>>> This is NO different that putting your K3 on 10.000.000 and setting up the
>>> Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal. You just wouldn't do it that way if you
>>> didn't know that your K3 wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000.
>>>
>>> You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts, and I'm
>>> not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free to contact me
>>> off the reflector if you need me to explain further. That goes for Alan as
>>> well, I would love to talk with you and explain what's going on here if my
>>> explanation doesn't make sense to you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3 to
>>>> tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra precision
>>>> on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last post. I
>>>> think you're over analyzing it and making it more complicated than it
>>>> needs to be. Its not that hard to understand whats going on there I
>>>> think most hams would get it. Those who don't get it its probably not
>>>> important to.
>>>>
>>>> ~Brett (N7MG)
>>>>
>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

Lu,

I don't think the accuracy is a problem, it is the rounding of the
frequency that is displayed on the P3 - that is simply resolution of the
frequency indicated. At least that is my understanding from a perusal
of the P3 manual.

The screen is continuous, but a frequency of 7035.265 displayed on the
K3 will be 7035.3 on the P3 In fact, any frequency between 7035.250 and
7035.349 will show up on the P3 as 7035.3 If there are several signals
in that 100 Hertz span, you should be able to point to one of them and
click - the K3 should show the low order digits, the P3 will not.

73,
Don W3FPR

Lu Romero wrote:

> So now I am getting a much better understanding...
>
> What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50
> cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
> calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
> acceptable.
>
> .....
>
> Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the
> above systems?
>
> -lu-w4lt-
>
>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by The Smiths

> Yes, this is enough to hit the spot button, but having the extra two
> digits would be very helpful.

You don't need the extra digits for REF CAL. Simply zero beat your
reference signal on the K3, Hold "CENTER" twice to align the P3 Center
frequency with the K3, then turn on REF CAL and adjust the signal so
it is centered in the display.

P3 REF CAL doesn't care about the frequency of the signal you are
using for alignment. The only thing REF CAL does is to move the
spectrum/Waterfall display so it aligns with the frequency reported
by the K3. You can even use one of those strange beacons on a
"odd" frequency as long as you properly tune the station and do
"CENTER" "CENTER" before adjusting REF CAL.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/12/2010 12:31 PM, The Smiths wrote:

>
> I agree with you for once Joe... 50Hz sounds right. If you Ref cal from that point than you'll most likely be 4 to 5Hz off. I've not once been able to get it to 1Hz resolution. Yes, this is enough to hit the spot button, but having the extra two digits would be very helpful.
>
>> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 02:58:27 -0400
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
>>
>>
>>> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't
>>> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line
>>> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz.
>>
>> You're wrong. The P3 display will never be more than 50 Hz from the
>> K3 if you calibrate it properly. Hold "center" until the "Center
>> Frequency" adjust display comes on and then hold "Center" again.
>> The P3 center frequency will be calibrated to the K3 frequency ...
>> the display will change +/- 50 Hz (e.g. it will show 10.000.0 from
>> 9.999.950 to 10.000.049).
>>
>>> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
>>> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say
>>> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob
>>> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm
>>> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100.
>>
>> No, the P3 display will change to 10.000.1 at 10.000.050 as I just
>> explained above. The P3 shows the correctly rounded version (not
>> truncated) of the K3 frequency. If you want the P3 center frequency
>> to align with the K3 simply do the "Center" "Center" process as
>> documented in the manual.
>>
>>> You just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been
>>> set correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out
>>> of wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses
>>> things more.
>>
>> If you properly zero the "Center" as instructed in the manual and
>> use WWV or an AM broadcast signal with SPAN set to 2 KHz, you will
>> get REF-CAL set to well less than 0.1 Hz ... probably on the order
>> of 0.01 Hz. It's not rocket science ... just follow the instructions
>> from those who designed the product and stop trying to argue.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 8/12/2010 2:09 AM, The Smiths wrote:
>>>
>>> You're wrong Brett... No matter what you say the P3 doesn't
>>> automatically sync with the K3 to a 1Hz accuracy. The Center line
>>> on the P3 CAN be and usually is off by as much as 99Hz. No matter
>>> how you look at it, if you can move a Center position on the P3 with
>>> the select knob in the "CENTER" adjustment mode, and it doesn't
>>> change from the reading of 10.000.0 until you get up to 10.000.1 or
>>> down to 9.999.9 than logic tells you that SOMETHING is changing
>>> between those two positions which just happen to be 100Hz apart from
>>> each other. Conversely, if you can change the K3 from 10.000.099 down
>>> to 9.999.999 before the display on the P3 center line changes, than
>>> obviously the K3 and the P3 are not in sync to the Hz.
>>>
>>> Look, try this.. it's a very simple test. Take your rig, put it on
>>> 10.000.000 Now look at your P3, does it say 10.000.0. Let's say
>>> that it does (according to you it should), now, turn your VFO knob
>>> up until the P3 reads 10.000.1. Where is your K3 displaying? I'm
>>> sure it's not going to be 10.000.100. I know mine sure isn't, and
>>> that's after I set that center as close as possible. My rig
>>> displays 10.000.042. That's 58Hz off. Take your VFO move it down
>>> until the P3 says 9.999.9. What does your K3 display? Mine says
>>> 9.999.940, 60Hz Off. it's NOT accurate. We need the extra 2 digits in
>>> order to set the true Center of the P3 BEFORE doing a Ref-Cal. You
>>> just can't set the Ref-cal until you know the center has been set
>>> correctly. If you do, than you're going to have EVERYTHING out of
>>> wack by that much difference. Moving that Ref cal just confuses
>>> things more.
>>>
>>> I'm not over thinking it, on the contrary you're putting your head
>>> in the sand and pretending that the P3's center is following the K3
>>> with 000Hz accuracy. When you center that marker and hit the QSY
>>> button you are going to move the CENTER of that carrier on the
>>> display as far or as close to the center that you just calibrated it
>>> to. You're just wrong.. I'm sorry. I don't know why Alan hasn't just
>>> come on here and said so... I've already seen 3 posts from him since
>>> we've been discussing this.
>>>
>>> The only people that this isn't important to are SSB guys that don't
>>> mind coming within 100Hz of the QSY freq. I don't know if you do CW,
>>> but I do, and when I land 80 hz away from someone with my 100 Hz
>>> filter on it makes a difference. The P3 was designed with SSB guys
>>> in mind, NOT cw guys. The accuracy of the center display, and the
>>> tremendous warm up drift all indicate it. I love my P3, and I'm
>>> having fun with it, but if Alan wants to make this friendly to the
>>> CW guys that requires more accuracy than the SSB guys use. He's
>>> going to have to 1 - re-write the manual on how to set up the Center,
>>> then the Ref-cal alignments, and then 2 - add the extra 2 digits to
>>> the center display freq. This is NO different that putting your K3
>>> on 10.000.000 and setting up the Zero beat on your Config: Ref Cal.
>>> You just wouldn't do it that way if you didn't know that your K3
>>> wasn't parked at exactly 10.000.000.
>>>
>>> You can disagree all you like. I've made my point, shown my facts,
>>> and I'm not going to argue any further on the reflector. Feel free
>>> to contact me off the reflector if you need me to explain further.
>>> That goes for Alan as well, I would love to talk with you and
>>> explain what's going on here if my explanation doesn't make sense to
>>> you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: [hidden email] Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:53:07 -0700
>>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY To:
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> The P3 is centered on the K3 by default. Thus you can read the K3
>>>> to tell what frequency the P3 is on. It doesn't need the extra
>>>> precision on the P3 display. I didn't read any more than your last
>>>> post. I think you're over analyzing it and making it more
>>>> complicated than it needs to be. Its not that hard to understand
>>>> whats going on there I think most hams would get it. Those who
>>>> don't get it its probably not important to.
>>>>
>>>> ~Brett (N7MG)
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list Home:
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:
>>> mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

> What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50
> cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
> calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
> acceptable.

You take what I said out of context. That statement was in
reference to the FREQUENCY DISPLAY. The FREQUENCY DISPLAY is
never move than 50 cycles from the K3 FREQUENCY DISPLAY. That
divergence is ONLY because the K3 FREQUENCY display ROUNDS to
the nearest 100 Hz (0.1 KHz).

> However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON
> the signal I have selected.

If you have sufficient span (visual resolution) selecting a
signal on the P3 will put you dead on in the K3. However,
it is just like clicking on the spectrum or waterfall in
any digital program, the mouse has a one pixel resolution -
if you are trying to use a spectrum/waterfall span of 100 KHz
in a window that is 360 pixels wide (1/4 of an SXGA screen),
the BEST you can do is +/- 138 Hz (100 KHz/360).

If you are using PowerSDR (the real FlexRadio) in full screen
mode on a 1600 pixel wide screen, each pixel will represent
about 70 Hz (100KHz/~1400 - the spectrum/waterfall is not full
width) and you can get within +/-35 Hz.

The same factors apply to the P3 ... your maximum accuracy is
SPAN/DISPLAY RESOLUTION. In the case of a 100 KHz span,
100KHz/480 +/- 100Hz ... that's one pixel and represents the
resolution limit of the display. However, I don't see it as
a real issue since a 100 KHz wide view only makes sense on a
relatively quiet band and you're not going to be using a 50 Hz
wide filter under those circumstances.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/12/2010 2:11 PM, Lu Romero wrote:

Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

No worries. I figured this stuff out in a later post. The
K3 is the boss, the P3 is the slave. Sorry about the
bandwidth. I aint thinking correctly at work. Trying to do
too much at once.

-lu-

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email], Lu Romero <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 15:23:09 -0400

> > What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than
>50
> > cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
> > calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is
>somewhat
> > acceptable.
>
>You take what I said out of context. That statement was in
>reference to the FREQUENCY DISPLAY. The FREQUENCY DISPLAY
>is never move than 50 cycles from the K3 FREQUENCY DISPLAY.
> That divergence is ONLY because the K3 FREQUENCY display
>ROUNDS to the nearest 100 Hz (0.1 KHz).
>
> > However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD
>ON
> > the signal I have selected.
>
>If you have sufficient span (visual resolution) selecting a
>signal on the P3 will put you dead on in the K3. However,
>it is just like clicking on the spectrum or waterfall in
>any digital program, the mouse has a one pixel resolution -
>if you are trying to use a spectrum/waterfall span of 100
>KHz in a window that is 360 pixels wide (1/4 of an SXGA
>screen), the BEST you can do is +/- 138 Hz (100 KHz/360).
>
>If you are using PowerSDR (the real FlexRadio) in full
>screen mode on a 1600 pixel wide screen, each pixel will
>represent about 70 Hz (100KHz/~1400 - the
>spectrum/waterfall is not full width) and you can get
>within +/-35 Hz.
>
>The same factors apply to the P3 ... your maximum accuracy
>is SPAN/DISPLAY RESOLUTION. In the case of a 100 KHz span,
>100KHz/480 +/- 100Hz ... that's one pixel and represents
>the resolution limit of the display. However, I don't see
>it as a real issue since a 100 KHz wide view only makes
>sense on a relatively quiet band and you're not going to be
>using a 50 Hz wide filter under those circumstances.
>
>73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>On 8/12/2010 2:11 PM, Lu Romero wrote:
>> So now I am getting a much better understanding...
>>
>> What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than
>> 50 cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
>> calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
>> acceptable.
>>
>> However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD
>> ON the signal I have selected.
>>
>> I have never operated a LP-Pan, but can I assume that it
>> will function just like the Flex (it is the same software
>> front end after all)?
>>
>> And Skimmer's waterfall display is also just as accurate.
>>
>> This means that if I am a "shoot fish in a barrel" mult
>> operator and are combing the band for signals, I would be
>> much more efficient time wise using a Flex/LP-Pan or a
>> Skimmer than using a P3 on my K3, even with the Macro
>> Magic CWT solution, right? The upside is that no
>> computer is needed (which is a non trivial thing, IMO).
>>
>> Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of
>> the above systems?
>>
>> -lu-w4lt-
>>
>>
>

John Fritze

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Bob Cunnings NW8L

Lest the list owners are thinking this topic is being discussed to
death: I am actually thankful this discussion has been going on as it
finally clicked with me how to set both my P3 and K3 for a more
accurate readout. Even though I followed the calibation proceedure
after building the K3 I never really felt the digital readout was as
accurate as could be. But now I understand what I needed to do and
why.

Thanks for the unintentional help here in the forums.

John
K2QY
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Bill W4ZV

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

Guy, K2AV wrote

Actually...

In a CW contest, where following packet spots can put you on the exact
same frequency with all the other braying lemmings, contributing to
your signal's non-pickoutable status at the other end, being off the
crowd frequency by 20-50 hertz is a SUCCESSFUL strategy to break
through the pile, practiced ON PURPOSE by top CW contest operators. If
you are following CW packet spots, best to set your XIT up or down
20-30 Hz and leave it there. DON'T ever use zero offset chasing CW
packet spots. (It will NOT bother me in the LEAST if all those who
read this think such an assertion is nonsense and never try it out. I
have outlined one of my competitive edge secrets, and I WON'T mind if
you DON'T use it.)

So being within 50 Hz is QUITE adequate and USEFUL. And despite given
what seems to be being played as some failure of the P3, one DOES
still have the K3 tuning knob to very quickly adjust to perfect
centering for RTTY, and digital modes. On the K3, it's the big
easy-to-use same-size-as-the-maxi-boxes knob. For other transceivers,
consult owner's manual for location and instructions for tuning knob.

50 Hz off will still be within the audible passband on the NARROWEST
K3 passband setting. Most contesters will use something like 200 or
250 for search and pounce, especially for chasing packet spots. Many
of these spots will be off 100 or 200 Hz, in addition to carrying
blown calls, which is why the need for a quite wider bandwidth than 50
Hz for any kind of search and pounce operation.

I strongly disagree. Ideally, the P3 should send the receiver VFO (not the transmitter) to exact zero-beat (as CW Skimmer does). If you *then* choose to set XIT for a consistent + or - 50 Hz offset, that's very easy to do. If the receiver does not go to zero beat, you have no way to set your consistent 50 Hz offset and in fact will be randomly between 0 and 100 Hz off, depending on which side of zero-beat the P3 sends the K3 to (+50 +50 = +100, and -50 +50 = 0, where VFO is the first number and XIT is the second).

The lack of true zero-beat capability is the major missing piece in the P3 and is why I'll continue to use CW Skimmer (even with its 24 kHz limitation) with my K3. Alan is very aware of this need, there are multiple implementation possibilities, and I'm sure he'll find the best solution. But I would not like for him to walk away from this discussion thinking true zero-beat capability is not needed.

73, Bill

Guy, K2AV

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

+ and - 100 Hz has worked quite well for breaking some pileups, and
still well within the +/- 250 Hz that puts one into the serious
annoyance category for the fellows up and down frequency.

While it really is nice to know that the P3 *WILL* set you fairly dead
on for digital signals, the degree of accuracy being discussed in this
thread, IMHO, is a far greater sharpness than needed to tack up the
note in a CW contest. More like measuring board widths with a
micrometer.

For those who simply don't have the tone sensitivity to set zero beat
by ear, even 50 Hz would be way better than some who apparently can't
get it within 250 Hz and then SPOT the misread. Such an individual
will be able to set themselves just about spot on.

But even the it's-only-as-good-as-plus-or-minus-fifty scenario put
forth by the gentleman would have been good enough for a CW contest
and certainly would not have been the implied "tragedy".

EITHER what he said or what you said bring it into clear usefulness
for my purposes. I'll take the better without any complaints. : >)

73, Guy.

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Guy, K2AV wrote:
>>
>> Actually...
>>
>> In a CW contest, where following packet spots can put you on the exact
>> same frequency with all the other braying lemmings, contributing to
>> your signal's non-pickoutable status at the other end, being off the
>> crowd frequency by 20-50 hertz is a SUCCESSFUL strategy to break
>> through the pile, practiced ON PURPOSE by top CW contest operators. If
>> you are following CW packet spots, best to set your XIT up or down
>> 20-30 Hz and leave it there. DON'T ever use zero offset chasing CW
>> packet spots. (It will NOT bother me in the LEAST if all those who
>> read this think such an assertion is nonsense and never try it out. I
>> have outlined one of my competitive edge secrets, and I WON'T mind if
>> you DON'T use it.)
>>
>> So being within 50 Hz is QUITE adequate and USEFUL. And despite given
>> what seems to be being played as some failure of the P3, one DOES
>> still have the K3 tuning knob to very quickly adjust to perfect
>> centering for RTTY, and digital modes. On the K3, it's the big
>> easy-to-use same-size-as-the-maxi-boxes knob. For other transceivers,
>> consult owner's manual for location and instructions for tuning knob.
>>
>> 50 Hz off will still be within the audible passband on the NARROWEST
>> K3 passband setting. Most contesters will use something like 200 or
>> 250 for search and pounce, especially for chasing packet spots. Many
>> of these spots will be off 100 or 200 Hz, in addition to carrying
>> blown calls, which is why the need for a quite wider bandwidth than 50
>> Hz for any kind of search and pounce operation.
>>
>
> I strongly disagree. Ideally, the P3 should send the receiver VFO (not the
> transmitter) to exact zero-beat (as CW Skimmer does). If you *then* choose
> to set XIT for a consistent + or - 50 Hz offset, that's very easy to do. If
> the receiver does not go to zero beat, you have no way to set your
> consistent 50 Hz offset and in fact will be randomly between 0 and 100 Hz
> off, depending on which side of zero-beat the P3 sends the K3 to (+50 +50 =
> +100, and -50 +50 = 0, where VFO is the first number and XIT is the second).
>
> The lack of true zero-beat capability is the major missing piece in the P3
> and is why I'll continue to use CW Skimmer (even with its 24 kHz limitation)
> with my K3. Alan is very aware of this need, there are multiple
> implementation possibilities, and I'm sure he'll find the best solution.
> But I would not like for him to walk away from this discussion thinking true
> zero-beat capability is not needed.
>
> 73, Bill
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/P3-a-modest-proposal-for-QSY-tp5410950p5419946.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

N8LP

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Technically, Joe, with PowerSDR/IF in Collapsed view you can fill the screen with the panadapter/waterfall up to the video card's maximum setting. I run my monitor at 1680 x 1200 and can fill the screen if I want to. Collapsed view is not available in the Flex Radio release of PowerSDR.

For your example 100kHz span, that would give a pixel resolution of about 60Hz, since the RBW is better than 1 pixel at that span. According to the P3 manual, the P3's RBW at 100kHz span would be 100000/450=~222 Hz. I assume they only display 450 pixels, so the pixel resolution would also be 222Hz.

PowerSDR/IF has a definite advantage in pixel resolution at wide spans. P3 has an advantage at very narrow spans since PowerSDR uses a fixed sample rate. If PowerSDR/IF is set for 48kHz sampling rate, the resolution at narrow spans would be 4x better than at 192kHz, of course.

73,
Larry N8LP

<quote author="Joe Subich, W4TV-4">

> What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50
> cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
> calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
> acceptable.

You take what I said out of context. That statement was in
reference to the FREQUENCY DISPLAY. The FREQUENCY DISPLAY is
never move than 50 cycles from the K3 FREQUENCY DISPLAY. That
divergence is ONLY because the K3 FREQUENCY display ROUNDS to
the nearest 100 Hz (0.1 KHz).

> However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON
> the signal I have selected.

If you have sufficient span (visual resolution) selecting a
signal on the P3 will put you dead on in the K3. However,
it is just like clicking on the spectrum or waterfall in
any digital program, the mouse has a one pixel resolution -
if you are trying to use a spectrum/waterfall span of 100 KHz
in a window that is 360 pixels wide (1/4 of an SXGA screen),
the BEST you can do is +/- 138 Hz (100 KHz/360).

If you are using PowerSDR (the real FlexRadio) in full screen
mode on a 1600 pixel wide screen, each pixel will represent
about 70 Hz (100KHz/~1400 - the spectrum/waterfall is not full
width) and you can get within +/-35 Hz.

The same factors apply to the P3 ... your maximum accuracy is
SPAN/DISPLAY RESOLUTION. In the case of a 100 KHz span,
100KHz/480 +/- 100Hz ... that's one pixel and represents the
resolution limit of the display. However, I don't see it as
a real issue since a 100 KHz wide view only makes sense on a
relatively quiet band and you're not going to be using a 50 Hz
wide filter under those circumstances.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

Bill W4ZV

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Lu Romero - W4LT

Lu Romero - W4LT wrote

However, on a Flex, I can click on a signal and be DEAD ON
the signal I have selected.

You just described the problem most SDRs have (excluding Skimmer). You must manually point a mouse or turn/press a knob to QSY. The advantage Skimmer has is that your fingers never need to leave your logging keyboard to do super-fast S&P on the same band the K3 is on.

Up Arrow to the next higher decoder dot (or Down Arrow for lower).
Identify by ear or contest logger's bandmap color code.
Work if needed; ignore if not.
Up Arrow to the next.

This is SOOOO much faster than using either a mouse or knob that it's a huge advantage (e.g. CT1BOH below)...and it's perfectly legal for unassisted mode when using Skimmer's Blind Mode (no text decoding).

http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/skimmertalk/2008-November/000191.html

If the P3 can solve the zero-beat QSY issue, hopefully there can also be keyboard control to jump to the next station. This would put it a step ahead of Skimmer because of the advantages the P3 has in SPAN widths and VFO flexibility (either A or B using A's IF OUT).

73, Bill

David Gilbert

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

Wouldn't I/Q outputs from the P3 have given you both right now?

Dave AB7E

On 8/13/2010 9:09 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote:

> You just described the problem most SDRs have (excluding Skimmer). You must
> manually point a mouse or turn/press a knob to QSY. The advantage Skimmer
> has is that your fingers never need to leave your logging keyboard to do
> super-fast S&P on the same band the K3 is on.
>
> Up Arrow to the next higher decoder dot (or Down Arrow for lower).
> Identify by ear or contest logger's bandmap color code.
> Work if needed; ignore if not.
> Up Arrow to the next.
>
> This is SOOOO much faster than using either a mouse or knob that it's a huge
> advantage (e.g. CT1BOH below)...and it's perfectly legal for unassisted mode
> when using Skimmer's Blind Mode (no text decoding).
>
> http://lists.contesting.com/pipermail/skimmertalk/2008-November/000191.html
>
> If the P3 can solve the zero-beat QSY issue, hopefully there can also be
> keyboard control to jump to the next station. This would put it a step
> ahead of Skimmer because of the advantages the P3 has in SPAN widths and VFO
> flexibility (either A or B using A's IF OUT).
>
> 73, Bill
>

Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: P3: a modest proposal for QSY

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Yes, that is exactly what I understand now. The GRANULARITY of the display
is higher or lower depending on the s;oce of bandwidth selected and
displayed on the screen. The narrower the slice, the smaller the
granularity. I thought the P3 was like the old fashioned external VFO units
that took over the frequency generation on the rig. It is not, its just a
read out.

I'm straight on this now. Shouldn't try to multitask too much at work :)
Not enough cycles delegated to groking the information.

-lu-

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 2:50 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] P3: a modest proposal for QSY

Lu,

I don't think the accuracy is a problem, it is the rounding of the frequency
that is displayed on the P3 - that is simply resolution of the frequency
indicated. At least that is my understanding from a perusal of the P3
manual.

The screen is continuous, but a frequency of 7035.265 displayed on the
K3 will be 7035.3 on the P3 In fact, any frequency between 7035.250 and
7035.349 will show up on the P3 as 7035.3 If there are several signals in
that 100 Hertz span, you should be able to point to one of them and click -
the K3 should show the low order digits, the P3 will not.

73,
Don W3FPR

Lu Romero wrote:

> So now I am getting a much better understanding...
>
> What Joe W4TV is saying is that a P3 is "never more than 50
> cycles" from the K3 frequency readout when correctly
> calibrated. With a 100 cycle bandwidth, this is somewhat
> acceptable.
>
> .....
>
> Will/can the P3/K3 combination approach the accuracy of the
> above systems?
>
> -lu-w4lt-
>
>
>

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