Pretty-printed manuals...
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Although my original response to "the original suggestion" was intended
to be somewhat jocular, I am really quite appalled at the number of people who (a) thought I suggested DOING AWAY with manuals, and (b) took their hip-shot at me for making a suggestion which was (1) not mine, and (2) not what was suggested anyhow. It makes me wonder if written manuals serve any purpose at all -- since people evidently can't extract meaning from what they read. It is also appalling (but no longer surprising to me) that there are so many hams out there who are relegating themselves to the early 20th century. The Elecraft design line is very modern and designed to take advantage of, but not be dependent upon, the ubiquitous presence of computers. According to the latest surveys, roughly 2/3 of ALL American households contain at least one computer. Why is it that a supposedly technologically-adept hobby like ham radio contains such a larger than average Luddite constituency? In addition, though some readers thought they saw the concept "GREEN" in my note, again this is reading with no comprehension. The original point, which BTW came from Alistair Cooper's post, was that people might recognize the choice offered and save the manufacturer and themselves money by not requesting a pretty-printed manual. The lovely Elecraft manuals, printed on high quality stock, are not cheap to produce, and local printing of a few selected pages on cheap Staples stock is certainly "greener." With regard to checking boxes, I have made a K2 with almost all its accessories, an XV144, along with numerous other kits over the years, and in the recent half-dozen builds, I have not used the printed manuals at all. Anyone who thinks it is somehow difficult to check the boxes in an electronic version is just plain out of touch with reality. If one has a computer, for heaven's sake use it! After all, it is supposed to be a labor-saving tool, not some shibboleth from a previous culture. John Ragle -- W1ZI ===== On 8/21/2011 9:04 AM, Gary Gregory wrote: > The original suggestion was to make the paper manual 'optional' at > time of > order... ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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I think you are making a hugely arrogant and erroneous assumption that anyone who sees the need for a printed manual is a Luddite. "Appalling"? Seriously? While you may not be overtly suggesting that Elecraft do away with manuals, below you are indeed sneering at those who still feel the need for one. Why on earth would you expect everyone to be able to assemble their kit within reach of their computer? And you are in error when you say that local printing is significantly cheaper or greener than that provided by Elecraft when you consider the cost of disposable ink jet cartridges. And as my earlier post points out, it isn't likely to save Elecraft anything either. Not everyone who disagrees with you is unable to comprehend what they read, and in fact many are able to think beyond what they read. Dave AB7E On 8/21/2011 7:42 AM, John Ragle wrote: > Although my original response to "the original suggestion" was intended > to be somewhat jocular, I am really quite appalled at the number of > people who (a) thought I suggested DOING AWAY with manuals, and (b) took > their hip-shot at me for making a suggestion which was (1) not mine, and > (2) not what was suggested anyhow. > > It makes me wonder if written manuals serve any purpose at all -- since > people evidently can't extract meaning from what they read. > > It is also appalling (but no longer surprising to me) that there are so > many hams out there who are relegating themselves to the early 20th > century. The Elecraft design line is very modern and designed to take > advantage of, but not be dependent upon, the ubiquitous presence of > computers. According to the latest surveys, roughly 2/3 of ALL American > households contain at least one computer. Why is it that a supposedly > technologically-adept hobby like ham radio contains such a larger than > average Luddite constituency? > > In addition, though some readers thought they saw the concept "GREEN" in > my note, again this is reading with no comprehension. The original > point, which BTW came from Alistair Cooper's post, was that people might > recognize the choice offered and save the manufacturer and themselves > money by not requesting a pretty-printed manual. The lovely Elecraft > manuals, printed on high quality stock, are not cheap to produce, and > local printing of a few selected pages on cheap Staples stock is > certainly "greener." > > With regard to checking boxes, I have made a K2 with almost all its > accessories, an XV144, along with numerous other kits over the years, > and in the recent half-dozen builds, I have not used the printed manuals > at all. Anyone who thinks it is somehow difficult to check the boxes in > an electronic version is just plain out of touch with reality. If one > has a computer, for heaven's sake use it! After all, it is supposed to > be a labor-saving tool, not some shibboleth from a previous culture. > > John Ragle -- W1ZI > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by John Ragle
John Ragle posted
" >Why is it that a supposedly >technologically-adept hobby like ham radio contains such >a larger than average Luddite constituency? " LOL John I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this part of your comment. The positive opinions expressed here regarding printed manuals are actually very widespread. If you want to see an even more spirited discussion, just go over to the LinuxJournal site which just announced the end of the printed version of its magazine. People are literally up in arms about this.. :) Of course they are not being given a choice. The reality is that we are all on different points along the journey to the paperless office and no one likes to be forced to change. So your idea of making it an option is definitely the best choice imho. I think we often forget that not everyone shares our world view of things. And just because they don't agree with our view doesn't mean that we shouldn't respect theirs. -- Thanks Jon KG6VDW ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Hi to the Group -- Dave -- your correct -- Most of us that are building a
kit or troubleshooting a problem want to have hard copy to look at and write notes, etc. Thanks for your comment -- it makes sense too. There is nothing worse than trying to work on some piece of equipment while navigating only a partial schematic on the terminal, laptop, or pad. Yuck! I too understand the thinking of wanting to reduce paper usage but, in this case it would only serve to make more work for Elecraft folks to have to make that decision, comply with the order options. I vote to keep the manuals coming -- they are great !!!! Rick NU7Z ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by JonKG6VDW
John, W1ZI, wrote:
"It is also appalling (but no longer surprising to me) that there are so many hams out there who are relegating themselves to the early 20th century. The Elecraft design line is very modern and designed to take advantage of, but not be dependent upon, the ubiquitous presence of computers." Unfortunately, technology can be a curse, as well as blessing. I have many job files, 10 to 15 years, old which are no longer readable by modern software. Supposed "translation utilities" are sometimes helpful, but more typically are ineffective. Yet, the paper files for the same work are still perfectly readable. I suppose that someday those paper files will fall apart--but probably after I do. For now, I'll keep my paper manuals, each with its notes and portability. Oh, the .PDF of the most current manual will reside on my computer or flash drive as an *additional *resource. 73, Blair K3YD ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by John Ragle
Hi, Blair...
What you say about 'job files" is quite true. I've been in & around computers since the late 1950's, and although I've ditched all my 8" floppies, I still have some 5 1/4" that I have saved in the forlorn hopes that they will become useful again for some other function than as coasters. ...but about the lifetime of tech manuals, I think the significant yardstick by which to measure them would be the average lifetime of the hardware they describe. Granted that eBay has the occasional SX-24 or HRO, or even the FT-101, I think that progress in the field is such that over a 10 or 15 year interval the useful hardware's lifetime is exceeded on average. Emphasis on "average!" The equipment in my ham operation looks very different from the way it looked 10 years ago, and on the computer side, I reckon 2 or 3 years is the absolute maximum life for hardware. Manuals designed to last for 25 or 50 years are just silly. John Ragle -- W1ZI ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by John Ragle
Kind of mean-spirited, no? I have a number of files and documents
stored on 5 1/4" 360 KB floppies [remember those], including my master's thesis. They were put there by me, mainly using an MS-DOS very early forerunner to MS Office called "Enable" running on a 10 MHz AT&T desktop built by Olivetti, with a green screen. I don't know where I could find a 5 1/4" drive now, I don't know where I can find a copy of that version of Enable [it stored stuff in some form of compressed binary because 4GB USB sticks hadn't been invented then [OK, USB hadn't been invented either] and it had to work within what today we would consider laughable storage limits, and I suspect at least some of the diskettes are no longer readable. Fortunately, I have printed copies of them, especially the thesis I worked so hard on, and they are as readable as the day I printed them. Does that make me a Luddite? 73, Fred K6DGW Auburn CA On 8/21/2011 7:42 AM, John Ragle wrote: > Why is it that a supposedly > technologically-adept hobby like ham radio contains such a larger than > average Luddite constituency? ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Old drives, old formats. Re: Pretty-printed manuals...
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I have boxes of those 5 1/4 diskettes plus a few 8 inchers. Everything I
wrote in the '70s and most of what I wrote in the '80s is now unavailable to me. Just the musty printouts give me a trail of provenance. Some of the algorithms I created back then would still be of value but I cannot get to them. An acoustic analysis program I wrote to simulate the noise pollution around a surface phosphate mine would be nice to have. It was fun to write within the confines we had then but the transition to C and Pascal made life much simpler. Variables with actual descriptive names were a boon to getting the work done faster and the debugging went more quickly in the new modular forms. To this day I am influenced by the integer variables in Fortran: i, j, k. Forth forced me to think in functional decomposition. I do not miss the confines of 65 kB but it was nice to know the wiring of the entire computer and how each bit of the rudimentary OSes of the day fit together. Getting to the I/O lines was much easier then too. Now to dig out my CP/M box and see if it still boots from those 8 inch floppies :) 73, Kevin. KD5ONS On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:19:26 -0700, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote: > Kind of mean-spirited, no? I have a number of files and documents > stored on 5 1/4" 360 KB floppies [remember those], including my master's > thesis. They were put there by me, mainly using an MS-DOS very early > forerunner to MS Office called "Enable" running on a 10 MHz AT&T desktop > built by Olivetti, with a green screen. I don't know where I could > find a 5 1/4" drive now, I don't know where I can find a copy of that > version of Enable [it stored stuff in some form of compressed binary > because 4GB USB sticks hadn't been invented then [OK, USB hadn't been > invented either] and it had to work within what today we would consider > laughable storage limits, and I suspect at least some of the diskettes > are no longer readable. > > Fortunately, I have printed copies of them, especially the thesis I > worked so hard on, and they are as readable as the day I printed them. > Does that make me a Luddite? > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > Auburn CA > > On 8/21/2011 7:42 AM, John Ragle wrote: > >> Why is it that a supposedly >> technologically-adept hobby like ham radio contains such a larger than >> average Luddite constituency? > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Pretty-printed manuals...[End of Thread]
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
Time to end this thread.
73, Eric List Moderator Eric www.elecraft.com _..._ On Aug 21, 2011, at 4:19 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote: > Kind of mean-spirited, no? I have a number of files and documents > stored on 5 1/4" 360 KB floppies [remember those], including my master's > thesis. They were put there by me, mainly using an MS-DOS very early > forerunner to MS Office called "Enable" running on a 10 MHz AT&T desktop > built by Olivetti, with a green screen. I don't know where I could > find a 5 1/4" drive now, I don't know where I can find a copy of that > version of Enable [it stored stuff in some form of compressed binary > because 4GB USB sticks hadn't been invented then [OK, USB hadn't been > invented either] and it had to work within what today we would consider > laughable storage limits, and I suspect at least some of the diskettes > are no longer readable. > > Fortunately, I have printed copies of them, especially the thesis I > worked so hard on, and they are as readable as the day I printed them. > Does that make me a Luddite? > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > Auburn CA > > On 8/21/2011 7:42 AM, John Ragle wrote: > >> Why is it that a supposedly >> technologically-adept hobby like ham radio contains such a larger than >> average Luddite constituency? > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Old drives, old formats. Re: Pretty-printed manuals...[Thread Ended]
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In reply to this post by kevinr@coho.net
Let's end this thread and its variants.
73, Eric WA6HHQ List Moderator www.elecraft.com _..._ On Aug 21, 2011, at 4:40 PM, "Kevin Rock" <[hidden email]> wrote: > I have boxes of those 5 1/4 diskettes plus a few 8 inchers. Everything I > wrote in the '70s and most of what I wrote in the '80s is now unavailable > to me. Just the musty printouts give me a trail of provenance. Some of > the algorithms I created back then would still be of value but I cannot > get to them. An acoustic analysis program I wrote to simulate the noise > pollution around a surface phosphate mine would be nice to have. It was > fun to write within the confines we had then but the transition to C and > Pascal made life much simpler. Variables with actual descriptive names > were a boon to getting the work done faster and the debugging went more > quickly in the new modular forms. To this day I am influenced by the > integer variables in Fortran: i, j, k. Forth forced me to think in > functional decomposition. I do not miss the confines of 65 kB but it was > nice to know the wiring of the entire computer and how each bit of the > rudimentary OSes of the day fit together. Getting to the I/O lines was > much easier then too. Now to dig out my CP/M box and see if it still > boots from those 8 inch floppies :) > 73, > Kevin. KD5ONS > > > On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:19:26 -0700, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Kind of mean-spirited, no? I have a number of files and documents >> stored on 5 1/4" 360 KB floppies [remember those], including my master's >> thesis. They were put there by me, mainly using an MS-DOS very early >> forerunner to MS Office called "Enable" running on a 10 MHz AT&T desktop >> built by Olivetti, with a green screen. I don't know where I could >> find a 5 1/4" drive now, I don't know where I can find a copy of that >> version of Enable [it stored stuff in some form of compressed binary >> because 4GB USB sticks hadn't been invented then [OK, USB hadn't been >> invented either] and it had to work within what today we would consider >> laughable storage limits, and I suspect at least some of the diskettes >> are no longer readable. >> >> Fortunately, I have printed copies of them, especially the thesis I >> worked so hard on, and they are as readable as the day I printed them. >> Does that make me a Luddite? >> >> 73, >> >> Fred K6DGW >> Auburn CA >> >> On 8/21/2011 7:42 AM, John Ragle wrote: >> >>> Why is it that a supposedly >>> technologically-adept hobby like ham radio contains such a larger than >>> average Luddite constituency? >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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