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Proper grounding for P3.

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David Olean

Proper grounding for P3.

I have been rebuilding my little hamshack these last few days. I am only
operating on one band (160M) so there is not much gear involved, but I
am trying to do it all correctly to minimize noise pickup from common
mode signals arriving in the shack from many RG-6 beverage feed lines.
Most of my work is outdoors preventing common mode noise from
propagating along the RG-6 coax. To help things along inside the shack,
I have installed a large copper buss bar with numerous attachment points
for wide braid connections to all the AC powered equipment on the
operating bench plus anything else that has RF or audio involved. I
have bonded everything to this buss bar and have routed a couple of #8
ground wires in conduit from the buss down to two ground rods situated
below the shack. I have a separate ground rod about 25 ft away for
grounding the beverage feed lines. I noted that several shack items
had no provision for grounding. One of them was the P3 panadaptor.
There is no ground on it. The inside is pretty empty so there is plenty
of room to install a ground lug. My question is will a lug modification
bother some new accessory/option that Wayne 'n Eric have planned for the
empty space? Maybe an Elecraft Sno-Cone dispenser or Elecraft coffee
maker? The logical spot for a lug is on the back panel. Am I safe there?

Is it good practice to bond the P3 chassis to ground? It gets 12 VDC
power from an external source, and it seems logical to have a separate
ground point and not count on coax cable shields for any ground
connection. I had a DX Engineering NCC-1 with no ground as well as the
computer, recording device, an Astron power supply etc. They are now
all bonded to the copper buss bar.

Dave K1WHS

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Proper grounding for P3.

David,

If your goal is to reduce noise, hum, and buzz in your station, then ---
much better than "grounding", use the "Bonding" techniques suggested
(and tested) in K9YC's information on the subject.
Basically, you bond from enclosure to enclosure with braid or heavy wire
- follow along the path of connecting audio cables and coax. When you
finally get to the end of the path (amplifier or tuner), then you can
connect to your station ground. Connecting each piece of equipment
separately to the station ground can actually make the hum, noise, and
buzz pickup worse.

You are NOT grounding for RF, but for lightning and AC mains protection
for you and your family and pets.
Mother Earth is not a SINK for RF - that is what common mode chokes on
the coax are for, use effective ones.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/28/2018 2:54 PM, David Olean wrote:

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NK7Z

Re: Proper grounding for P3.

In reply to this post by David Olean

Hi Dave (K1WHS),

I have a bit of an description on how I removed most of my RFI from the
shack located at:

https://www.nk7z.net/category/info/rfi-mitigation/constructing-a-shack-for-minimal-rfi-from-the-ground-up/

Scroll to "Rebuilding the Shack from scratch".

The link above is a link to a set of articles on removing RFI from your
environment, so you may find other articles of interest.

Don't forget to check out K9YC's very informative and useful articles at:

http://k9yc.com/publish.htm

Look under "Ham Radio Topics", there is more information than you can
absorb in a day at his site, and all of it is good.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
https://www.nk7z.net

On 03/28/2018 11:54 AM, David Olean wrote:

> I have been rebuilding my little hamshack these last few days. I am only
> operating on one band (160M) so there is not much gear involved, but I
> am trying to do it all correctly to minimize noise pickup from common
> mode signals arriving in the shack from many RG-6 beverage feed lines.
> Most of my work is outdoors preventing common mode noise from
> propagating along the RG-6 coax. To help things along inside the shack,
> I have installed a large copper buss bar with numerous attachment points
> for wide braid connections to all the AC powered equipment on the
> operating bench plus anything else that has RF or audio involved. I
> have bonded everything to this buss bar and have routed a couple of #8
> ground wires in conduit from the buss down to two ground rods situated
> below the shack. I have a separate ground rod about 25 ft away for
> grounding the beverage feed lines. I noted that several shack items
> had no provision for grounding. One of them was the P3 panadaptor.
> There is no ground on it. The inside is pretty empty so there is plenty
> of room to install a ground lug. My question is will a lug modification
> bother some new accessory/option that Wayne 'n Eric have planned for the
> empty space? Maybe an Elecraft Sno-Cone dispenser or Elecraft coffee
> maker? The logical spot for a lug is on the back panel. Am I safe there?
>
> Is it good practice to bond the P3 chassis to ground? It gets 12 VDC
> power from an external source, and it seems logical to have a separate
> ground point and not count on coax cable shields for any ground
> connection. I had a DX Engineering NCC-1 with no ground as well as the
> computer, recording device, an Astron power supply etc. They are now
> all bonded to the copper buss bar.
>
> Dave K1WHS
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Proper grounding for P3.

In reply to this post by David Olean

Hi Dave,

Here's my take on Grounding and Bonding for ham radio. Most of it was
incorporated in Ward Silver's new ARRL book on the topic.

http://k9yc.com/GroundingAndAudio.pdf

Yes, you should add a suitable bonding point for any gear that lacks it.
Just make sure that whatever point you choose isn't insulated from the
chassis by paint. :)

On 3/28/2018 11:54 AM, David Olean wrote:

> I have been rebuilding my little hamshack these last few days. I am
> only operating on one band (160M) so there is not much gear involved,
> but I am trying to do it all correctly to minimize noise pickup from
> common mode signals arriving in the shack from many RG-6 beverage feed
> lines. Most of my work is outdoors preventing common mode noise from
> propagating along the RG-6 coax. To help things along inside the
> shack, I have installed a large copper buss bar with numerous
> attachment points for wide braid connections to all the AC powered
> equipment on the operating bench plus anything else that has RF or
> audio involved. I have bonded everything to this buss bar and have
> routed a couple of #8 ground wires in conduit from the buss down to
> two ground rods situated below the shack. I have a separate ground rod
> about 25 ft away for grounding the beverage feed lines.

One of the most important rules about grounds is that you can have as
many as you like, but in a premises, all MUST be bonded together.

> I noted that several shack items had no provision for grounding. One
> of them was the P3 panadaptor. There is no ground on it. The inside is
> pretty empty so there is plenty of room to install a ground lug. My
> question is will a lug modification bother some new accessory/option
> that Wayne 'n Eric have planned for the empty space? Maybe an
> Elecraft Sno-Cone dispenser or Elecraft coffee maker? The logical
> spot for a lug is on the back panel. Am I safe there?
>
> Is it good practice to bond the P3 chassis to ground? It gets 12 VDC
> power from an external source, and it seems logical to have a
> separate ground point and not count on coax cable shields for any
> ground connection.

Yes.

> I had a DX Engineering NCC-1 with no ground as well as the computer,
> recording device, an Astron power supply etc. They are now all bonded
> to the copper buss bar.

Great. The only thing better is daisy-chain bonding from
chassis-to-chassis of interconnected equipment. Study the tutorial.

73, Jim K9YC
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David Olean

Re: Proper grounding for P3.

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Don, Dave et al,

Thanks for all the tips. I was really just wondering about where to
drill holes in the P3, or if it should be bonded at all. I have been
doing much reading on removing common mode signals and was happily on my
way to achieving that with numerous lossy ferrite chokes at strategic
spots. The idea to daisy chain the bonding wire between "boxes" to
minimize ground loops seems like a good one too. I will revise my
grounding. My goal was to make the ham shack as safe as possible for
lightning protection, but the impetus for the project was discovering
that common mode signals were creeping in on all my beverage feedlines.
There are really two different situations that are being addressed.
Reading ON4UN's book (The latest revision) was an eye opener as far as
how common mode signals can mess up a beverage installation. Following
his advice, I have made good strides in stripping unwanted noise from my
feed lines. I am bonding my station ground rods with the power entry
panel ground as well. That will be an expensive undertaking as they
are quite far apart. I am not looking forward to making the trench to
bury the wire.

Thanks again. I'll bite the bullet, drill a hole in the P3 and hope that
it does not interfere with the yet un announced Elecraft P3 Cappuccino
machine option.

Dave K1WHS

On 3/28/2018 9:08 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> David,
>
> If your goal is to reduce noise, hum, and buzz in your station, then ---
> much better than "grounding", use the "Bonding" techniques suggested
> (and tested) in K9YC's information on the subject.
> Basically, you bond from enclosure to enclosure with braid or heavy
> wire - follow along the path of connecting audio cables and coax.
> When you finally get to the end of the path (amplifier or tuner), then
> you can connect to your station ground. Connecting each piece of
> equipment separately to the station ground can actually make the hum,
> noise, and buzz pickup worse.
>
> You are NOT grounding for RF, but for lightning and AC mains
> protection for you and your family and pets.
> Mother Earth is not a SINK for RF - that is what common mode chokes on
> the coax are for, use effective ones.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 3/28/2018 2:54 PM, David Olean wrote:
>> I have been rebuilding my little hamshack these last few days. I am
>> only operating on one band (160M) so there is not much gear involved,
>> but I am trying to do it all correctly to minimize noise pickup from
>> common mode signals arriving in the shack from many RG-6 beverage
>> feed lines. Most of my work is outdoors preventing common mode noise
>> from propagating along the RG-6 coax. To help things along inside
>> the shack, I have installed a large copper buss bar with numerous
>> attachment points for wide braid connections to all the AC powered
>> equipment on the operating bench plus anything else that has RF or
>> audio involved. I have bonded everything to this buss bar and have
>> routed a couple of #8 ground wires in conduit from the buss down to
>> two ground rods situated below the shack. I have a separate ground
>> rod about 25 ft away for grounding the beverage feed lines. I noted
>> that several shack items had no provision for grounding. One of them
>> was the P3 panadaptor.
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: Proper grounding for P3.

David,

You don't have to drill a hole, just connect the bonding strap to any
screw on the enclosure.
The entire purpose is to conduct the hum, buzz and noise onto the outer
surface of the enclosure instead of letting it be conducted onto the
ground plane of the circuits inside.
If you will note, the BNC and other connectors do not connect to the
enclosure, but the ground points are instead connected to the circuit board.
In the old days, those connectors were mounted on the enclosure and then
wired (on the inside) to the circuit board - today, the connectors are
instead mounted directly to the circuit board, and have no electrical
connection to the outside of the enclosure. That is the classic "pin 1"
problem.
In the P3 situation, that can cause spikes from unknown sources in the
display because of noise pickup on the coax shield.

Remember, this is bonding, not grounding. Ground is for AC mains and
lightning protection safety.

Yes, do connect those ground rods to the utility entrance ground with #6
or larger wire - that is protection for you, your family and pets in
case of a fault anywhere in the wiring of your house.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/29/2018 11:12 AM, David Olean wrote:

> Don, Dave et al,
>
> Thanks for all the tips. I was really just wondering about where to
> drill holes in the P3, or if it should be bonded at all. I have been
> doing much reading on removing common mode signals and was happily on
> my way to achieving that with numerous lossy ferrite chokes at
> strategic spots. The idea to daisy chain the bonding wire between
> "boxes" to minimize ground loops seems like a good one too. I will
> revise my grounding. My goal was to make the ham shack as safe as
> possible for lightning protection, but the impetus for the project was
> discovering that common mode signals were creeping in on all my
> beverage feedlines. There are really two different situations that
> are being addressed. Reading ON4UN's book (The latest revision) was
> an eye opener as far as how common mode signals can mess up a beverage
> installation. Following his advice, I have made good strides in
> stripping unwanted noise from my feed lines. I am bonding my station
> ground rods with the power entry panel ground as well. That will be
> an expensive undertaking as they are quite far apart. I am not looking
> forward to making the trench to bury the wire.
>
> Thanks again. I'll bite the bullet, drill a hole in the P3 and hope
> that it does not interfere with the yet un announced Elecraft P3
> Cappuccino machine option.
>
> Dave K1WHS
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: Proper grounding for P3.

On 3/29/2018 8:52 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> Yes, do connect those ground rods to the utility entrance ground with
> #6 or larger wire - that is protection for you, your family and pets
> in case of a fault anywhere in the wiring of your house.

AND, for that reason, it's REQUIRED BY LAW!

73, Jim K9YC

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Bill Frantz

Re: Proper grounding for P3.

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

I added a solder lug that fit over the female BNC connector on
the P3 for bonding. On other boxes, I removed one of the screws
and put it through the braid. I'm bonding my all aluminum Mac
laptop with a bit of braid and a clothes pin. It comes off
easily when I need to take the computer with me.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 3/28/18 at 3:44 PM, [hidden email] (Jim Brown) wrote:

>Yes, you should add a suitable bonding point for any gear that
>lacks it. Just make sure that whatever point you choose isn't
>insulated from the chassis by paint. :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"Insofar as the propositions of mathematics
refer to
408-356-8506 | reality, they are not certain; and insofar
they are
www.pwpconsult.com | certain, they do not refer to reality.”
-- Einstein

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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k6mkf

Re: Proper grounding for P3.

My PC is always on, so K3 next, then fire up HRD, N1MM+ or whatever next.

Works every time ...

- 73 and good DX de Mike, K6MKF, Past President - NCDXC

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> On Behalf Of Bill Frantz
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 3:59 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Proper grounding for P3.
>
> I added a solder lug that fit over the female BNC connector on the P3 for
> bonding. On other boxes, I removed one of the screws and put it through the
> braid. I'm bonding my all aluminum Mac laptop with a bit of braid and a clothes
> pin. It comes off easily when I need to take the computer with me.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> On 3/28/18 at 3:44 PM, [hidden email] (Jim Brown) wrote:
>
> >Yes, you should add a suitable bonding point for any gear that lacks
> >it. Just make sure that whatever point you choose isn't insulated from
> >the chassis by paint. :)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz |"Insofar as the propositions of mathematics
> refer to
> 408-356-8506 | reality, they are not certain; and insofar
> they are
> www.pwpconsult.com | certain, they do not refer to reality.”
> -- Einstein
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to [hidden email]