Elecraft

QRP viability during solar cycle min?

Classic

List

Threaded

26 messages Options

Darwin, Keith

QRP viability during solar cycle min?

K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.

How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?

- Keith KD1E -
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

n6wg

RE: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

Keith
I run only wire antennas here with my 5w K2.
Plus a 50 ft vertical on 160m. With the K2
at 5w, I have 160m QRP WAS, so you can have
a lot of fun with 5w on the low bands.

You do have to be a bit creative with your
antennas to wring out the last drop of performance
from them, but to me, that's part of the fun of
ham radio. A good radio helps, too. For contesting,
I would stick with the K2 over the K1. More
features to work with, and access to all bands.

I work all the contests, and throw my 5w in there
among the big boys. Fun is where you find it.
Get out there and stir something up.

73, Bob N6WG
The Little Station with Attitude

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Darwin, Keith
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 9:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?

K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.

How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?

- Keith KD1E -
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Mark J. Schreiner

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Hi Keith,

During the solar minimum the higher frequencies don't open as often or for as long, that is 10 & 15m. I find that 20m and 17m are open nearly every day and are both great bands for making QRP QSOs, and similarly I use mostly 17m while HF mobile (I estimate that the poor mobile antenna efficiency with a 100W rig is about the same as QRP, HI HI!). These bands are open during the daytime and closed (at my QTH) at night generally.

Okay, now for the good part. If you have a vertical antenna with good radial system to minimize ground loss you've got a great antenna for DX and stateside QSOs on 40m during the night. I've worked many European DX stations on 40m while competing with 100 to 1 KW stations on the bottom of 40m and have always made QSOs on 7.040 (when the RTTY & PSK31 doesn't encroach). DX is probably easier on 160 to 40m during a sunspot minimum because more stations that used to be active on higher frequencies are forced to go to lower frequencies if they want to stay active. Also, there is less D-layer absorbtion so the path losses are less. Both of these add up to a win-win for QRP!

BTW, I have a Carolina Windom 160 antenna up about 60'. It is an okay all-around antenna but I've had better antennas, I just can't do anything different currently. I'd love to have a tower with a yagi, but it would go to waste during the dark hours (which is when I'm home from work to be able to play radio anyway) at this point.

Don't look for excuses to stay off the air (sunspot cycle minimum)! Look for opportunities to be active!

73 & good luck!

Mark, NK8Q
K2 4786

>From: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
>Date: Wed Jan 11 11:19:39 CST 2006
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?

>K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
>sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
>(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
>but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.
>
>How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
>current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
>simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?
>
>- Keith KD1E -
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Mark J. Schreiner

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

BTW, last night 160m sounded pretty good. I didn't have time to spend on the radio but I did work my second European DX with 5W from my K2. I worked G3PQA (I think that was it, my memory may not be 100% since I'm in a training course today). Apparently he is a fairly big "Top Band" station. It took a little while until he got my callsign, but afterward, he did say "Nice job for 5W" so I was happy!

Mark, NK8Q

>From: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
>Date: Wed Jan 11 11:19:39 CST 2006
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?

Vic K2VCO

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Darwin, Keith wrote:

> How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
> current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
> simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?

You can still make plenty of contacts with 10 watts. During the day, 20
meters is usually open, and 40 in the evening. I worked Europe from
here (California) with 5 watts on 40 meters during a sunspot minimum
with a vertical. 30 meters can be quite good as well. If you could get
another 10 feet of height for your dipole, that would be a big
improvement.

But you will make more good QSOs with 100 watts. My advice is: get the
KPA100. You can operate at 5 or 10 watts output as much as you want,
but you will be able to turn up the power when you are not heard or
start to have difficulty during a contact.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Ron D'Eau Claire-2

RE: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Keith, KD1E wrote:

K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet but
that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.

How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with simple
antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?

---------------------------------------------

The difference between 10 and 100 watts (10 dB) is about 1.5 "S" units on
most receivers. Band conditions changing from hour to hour will cause a much
bigger variation that that.

The biggest difference will depend upon whether you focus on working DX as
you primary activity.

Overall, signal strengths will tend to be slightly lower than we see on 10
meters during the sunspot maxima, so it is true that QRP may suffer
slightly. Unless you're trying to bust a pileup for a rare DX station you
shouldn't notice a lot of difference in your ability to make contacts, even
good stable contacts for long-winded rag chews if you want, as long as you
adjust the bands your using to follow the changes in propagation and the
maximum usable frequency (MUF).

What you will notice about the sunspot minimum is that the 10 through 18
meter bands will be open less often than they were. Indeed, in the years
around the minimum, you may find that 10 meters is open only sporadically
for short periods of time. Even 20 and occasionally 40 may shut down to long
skip for days. The issue isn't whether a particular band is 'open' but
rather the maximum usable frequency (MUF). Fifteen and ten meters have been
great DX bands during the sunspot maxima because they're typically close to
the MUF. On occasion the MUF even gets as high as 6 meters, and long skip
contacts suddenly become easy there. During the sunspot minima the MUF will
drop down to 14 MHz and, on occasion, even 7 MHz. When that happens those
bands are roaring with DX much like 10 has for years throughout the sunspot
maxima, and the higher frequency bands will be quiet except for locals.

Still, there's a couple of big differences. First, the ionization of the
lower atmosphere affects lower-frequency signals more. That's why you don't
hear daytime "DX" on the AM standard broadcast band (550 - 1700 kHz) but it
often booms in at night. The ions produced in the lower atmosphere by the
sun absorb those frequencies, but as soon as the sun sets those ions
dissipate and the atmosphere becomes transparent to RF. That effect extends
up to, typically, somewhere between 7 and 15 MHz. As the frequency goes up
the absorption drops. That's why you can work distances with 5 watts on 80,
40 or 20 in the day that no amount of power from a station in the broadcast
band will cover, and the DX gets better as you go up in frequency (as long
as you stay below the MUF). That's also a large part of the reason why,
after dark, better and better DX starts being heard on 160, 80 and 40
meters.

The other big difference is that the typical Ham antenna is much less
efficient for DX work at the lower frequencies. Vertical antennas suffer
greater ground losses and, typically, horizontal antennas are too low for
best DX. A horizontally polarized antenna, no matter the type, needs to be
close to 1/2 wave or higher above the effective ground for best DX coverage.
Most Ham antennas meet that criteria at 14 MHz and above. An antenna 35 feet
up is a full half wave high on 20 meters, for example. Down at 7 or 3.5 MHz,
the antenna needs to be 60 to 120 feet up to be an equivalent electrical
height! That's above what most Hams can manage. Still, lower antennas are
excellent for short skip out to 1,000 or 2,000 miles. They can even do
better than antennas mounted higher up.

So, no matter the power, if you're looking for consistent DX performance
with a "typical" Ham installation, your bands of choice will shift down
toward 20 and 40 meters instead of the higher frequencies during the sunspot
minima, and your DX opportunities will appear more commonly along the gray
line or during the hours of darkness when atmospheric absorption is a its
lowest.

For casual contacts and rag chewing, 80 will start to act a lot more like 40
meters has in the past and even 40, 30, and 20 meters will see a lot of
stable short skip at times.

A little extra power is always a help, but it's often only a psychological
help. My K2/100 is at 100 watts a lot simply because in working a lot of
stations, they "like" to know that I'm running a comparable power because
they hate digging for signals near the noise. My power is always down at QRP
levels when I'm around the QRP calling frequencies (7040, 14060, etc.) One
time I called an OT retired radio operator I know and we had a nice long rag
chew. Predictably, he thanked me for running "decent power", grumbling about
all those QRPers who expect him to try to listen to their peanut-whistles
down in the noise. As always, I just ignored it and we chatted about things
a couple of OT's would normally talk about from their childhood: the war of
independence, the civil war, Teddy Roosevelt and other icons of our youth
<G>. After a half hour of chewing the rag we signed off. It was only then
that I noticed that I had forgotten to turn the KPA100 on. My output wasn't
100 watts as I had reported. It was 10 watts.

Ron AC7AC

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Tom Althoff

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Keith -

I was reading that the predicted low of the current cycle supposedly takes
place this September.

Using my K1 @ 5W there has been an opening to Europe every day for the past
two weeks on 15M....I was impressed that there were any stations outside of
the usual North/South paths during sunspot minimums. I worked 12 different
countries on 15M sometimes hammering out the QSO in a pileup with other
higher power stations in the US.

I'm REALLY impressed with ANYONE running under 100W on 160M!!!!!! 5W WAS
on 160M with a 50ft vertical is SUPER-IMPRESSIVE! Congrats to N6WG.

As others point out 40 and 20 are great havens for QRP operation with very
little frustration and lots of QSO's.

Definitely go for the K2 and upgrade as the need or urge arrives.

73 de Tom K2TA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 12:19 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?

K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.

How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?

- Keith KD1E -
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Stephen W. Kercel

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Keith:

As you have no doubt seen from the other posts, you can do a lot with
QRP on the low bands. As is clear from such feats as working
intercontinental DX with 5 W on 160 m, QRP is limiting, but not severely so.

I've done some NVIS calculations for New England. If you're
interested in working stations within 200 miles, you can do so
practically every night on 80 meters with 5 Watts to an inverted-V 20
feet high at the apex.

If you're interested in DX, it is slightly more difficult, but far
from impossible. If you could get up a full-size 40m dipole 30 feet
or more off the ground, you'd be able to work Europe on 40 m QRP most
(but not all) evenings. (Caution: 40 has a tendency to go dead
between about midnight and sunrise. The flux is presently so low that
the MUF to most locations drops below 7 MHz late at night. In that
case you cannot work DX on 40 no matter how much power you run.)

On 80 meters I have a dipole up about 40 feet. My experience this
winter is that about two nights out of a week, the 80 meter DX
opening at sunrise in Europe is strong enough that I can make
contacts with 5 Watts.

A couple of practical thoughts:

Back when I worked in the RF Group at Oak Ridge National lab, we had
a sign on the wall that said, "A dB is a dB is a dB, and every one is
just as good as all the others, no matter where they come from." With
that in mind, and considering that you're giving up 13 dB by reducing
transmitter power from 100 to 5 Watts, you need to think about were
else you can pick up some extra dBs. For example:

1) Put up the biggest highest antenna that you can. If you have a 20
foot high antenna, but could raise it to 25 feet, do so. It is worth
the trouble doing.

2) If you cannot make your antenna system work for you, at least try
to get it where it does not work against you. Avoid wave traps and
tuning networks if possible. If you must use a Tuner or a matching
network, make it out of the heaviest components you can; you want to
minimize losses. Use the biggest transmission line you can afford and
run it with the lowest SWR you can achieve. Make as direct a run from
the transmitter to the antenna as possible, with as few breaks in the
line and as few items inserted into the line (filters, directional
couplers, ferrite baluns/isolators, etc.) as you can get away with.

3) In keeping with the above principle, you might want to try to set
up dedicated 80 and 40 meter antennas and not worry about the high
bands for the next couple of years. Multiband antennas will always be
lossier than single band antennas.

4) Listen for the very loudest DX signal you can find and call that
one. If one DX station is is markedly louder than the other DX, he's
likely using a high gain antenna. One of the best tricks in QRP DX is
making the other guy's high gain antenna work for you.

5) Your biggest source of extra dBs is the ionosphere. Use VOACAP to
compute when the strongest openings from your location will occur,
and operate at those times. (VOACAP is downloadable for free. It is
well documented and easy to learn. To find out more, simply Google VOACAP.)

73,

Steve
AA4AK

At 12:19 PM 1/11/2006, Darwin, Keith wrote:

Ed - K9EW

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Fear not the sunspot cycle, Darwin. In the past 18 months, I have completed
WAS with 5w and a dipole. I currently have 49 states with 1 watt, and 44
states with 100mW. I think I enjoy the challenge of the sunspot trough more
than "shooting fish in a barrel" during the sunspot peak. The feeling of
accomplishment is greater. Just be patient, and when the bands are good,
get on and make some QSO's. When condx are poor, read up on what makes for
good propagation conditions.

72 es good luck,
ed - k9ew

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy-2

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Keith,

If you want to hear how strong signals from a 100, 10 , 1 or 0.1 watt
transmitter can be in real time, take a listen to the International Beacon
Project stations on 20m through 10m. These beacons are located across the
world, and transmit in sequence on each band. When it is a particular
beacon's turn to transmit, it sends its call in CW followed by four long
dashes - one at 100w followed by one at 10w, one at 1w and lastly one at
0.1mW. Then the next beacon does the same. Each beacon is given 10 seconds
transmission time. The transmitters operate 24 hours a day, seven days a
week, and somewhere I have the details of their antennas which I think are
all omnidirectional verticals. Their frequencies are 14100, 18110, 21150,
24930 and 28200 kHz , and these beacons are a very useful 'tool' for
catching band openings especially on 12m and 10m at this point in the solar
cycle. It is surprising how often 10m is open even now but no ham signals
are heard because everybody is listening, or is elsewhere.

It is my belief that in working DX a very important thing is a good calling
technique. A continental friend of mine runs 100mW, works DX on 40m, and it
is a treat to hear him drop in his call whilst the mob catches its breath.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

Keith, KD1E, wrote on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:19 PM

K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.

How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?

- Keith KD1E -

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

ROBERT CARROLL-4

RE: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

I use the beacons as a propagation tool. Recently there have been many days
when I can hear very few and no strong beacon signals on any band. On days
like these you will be hard pressed to work dx on any band at any power.
However from time to time at QRO you can make some surprising contacts. One
I was pleased with lately was Singapore on 80m at sunset. That contact
could not have been made at QRP. Interestingly enough the view of 10 years
ago that when the HF bands are at their worst due to an inactive sun,
160m-40m will be at their best. This certainly seemed to be true a number
of cycles back, but not in the last two cycles.

During good propagation conditions it is possible to work good DX on 160m
with 100W or somewhat less, but if you look at the leaders on the band they
are nearly all QRO.

I tend to park my QRP gear when the cycle goes sour and to use it a lot in
better parts of a decent cycle. Nothing like the thrill of a long haul DX
contact with QRP, but you may want to haul out a bigger rig or amp on many
days till the sun starts being more active.

Bob W2WG

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey
Mackenzie-Kennedy
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:07 PM
To: Darwin, Keith
Cc: Elecraft Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?

Keith,

If you want to hear how strong signals from a 100, 10 , 1 or 0.1 watt
transmitter can be in real time, take a listen to the International Beacon
Project stations on 20m through 10m. These beacons are located across the
world, and transmit in sequence on each band. When it is a particular
beacon's turn to transmit, it sends its call in CW followed by four long
dashes - one at 100w followed by one at 10w, one at 1w and lastly one at
0.1mW. Then the next beacon does the same. Each beacon is given 10 seconds
transmission time. The transmitters operate 24 hours a day, seven days a
week, and somewhere I have the details of their antennas which I think are
all omnidirectional verticals. Their frequencies are 14100, 18110, 21150,
24930 and 28200 kHz , and these beacons are a very useful 'tool' for
catching band openings especially on 12m and 10m at this point in the solar
cycle. It is surprising how often 10m is open even now but no ham signals
are heard because everybody is listening, or is elsewhere.

It is my belief that in working DX a very important thing is a good calling
technique. A continental friend of mine runs 100mW, works DX on 40m, and it
is a treat to hear him drop in his call whilst the mob catches its breath.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

Keith, KD1E, wrote on Wednesday, January 11, 2006 5:19 PM

K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.

How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?

- Keith KD1E -

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Darwin, Keith

RE: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Thanks for the replies. Much of it is info that I do already know,
having worked QRP for a number of years. The thing I DON'T have is the
experience of working QRP during various phases of the sunspot cycle.
My ham activity has always gone in blips and blops and has been mostly
out of phase with the 11 yr solar cycle. In other words, I get
interested and active when we're near a low point and become inactive
during the peaks. I've done it that way since the early 1980s :-)

I find as I work folks on 40, I'm glad to have a "full" 80 watts. Noise
level is high, QSB is an issue, QRM is an issue. Yea, 5 watts is only
1.5 S-units down but that makes a difference when conditions are not
optimal. Last night, after aligning my rig, I happen to catch HA3MQ (?)
on 40 CW. He was fluttery but I could copy so I answered him. We did
the usual short exchange. He gave me 559, I gave him 449. Turns out he
was running 100 watts to a Yagi at 30 meters. So even when using the
other guy's beam, we pretty much needed the power to make the QSO. I
don't know, maybe 5 watts would have done it, but I doubt it.

I guess the way to find out is to just turn my rig down to 5 watts for a
few weeks and see if I'm still having fun ...

73!

- Keith -
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Paul Meier

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Mark J. Schreiner

All the DX is still out there, it's just quieter!

Paul K7PM
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Ci Jones

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

In a message dated 1/11/2006 1:27:55 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:

Fear not the sunspot cycle, Darwin. In the past 18 months, I have completed
WAS with 5w and a dipole. I currently have 49 states with 1 watt, and 44
states with 100mW.

Well, I guess that ends me whining about poor propagation and not making
many contacts. Thanks for sharing these fantastic achievements--it is truly
motivating...72/73, Ci

Ci Jones, WU7R K-2 #4615, K-1 #933, KX-1 #957
FISTS #10789
NAQCC #306
ARCI #12163
_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Larry Makoski W2LJ

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

Darwin, Keith wrote:

Keith,

Fear not fellow Elecrafter! We QRPers laugh at the sunspot minimum!
Sunspots ...... who needs 'em?

I know, actually we all do. But to be serious .... as bad as band
conditions were in 2005, I managed to make at least one QRP CW QSO
everyday in 2005. If you want to check out some of who I worked (and
there was a goodly bit of DX mixed in) then please check out:
http://www.qsl.net/w2lj/index%20page%209.html

My antennas are not much more substantial (if any) than yours. I have a
G5RV at 25 feet and a Butternut HF9V vertical which is ground mounted in
the backyard. To me it seems that if you don't spend too much time
concentrating on what you think are deficiencies; but go out with the
aim to just have fun, then you will be amazed at what you can accomplish!

73 de Larry W2LJ
K1# 1647, K2# 4090

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Tony Morgan-2

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

K9QRG ON 5/12?
Just checking :>)

Tony W7GO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Makoski W2LJ" <[hidden email]>
To: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?

> Darwin, Keith wrote:
>
>>K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
>>sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
>>(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
>>but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.
>>
>>How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
>>current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
>>simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?
>>
>>- Keith KD1E -
>>_______________________________________________
>>
>>
> Keith,
>
> Fear not fellow Elecrafter! We QRPers laugh at the sunspot minimum!
> Sunspots ...... who needs 'em?
>
> I know, actually we all do. But to be serious .... as bad as band
> conditions were in 2005, I managed to make at least one QRP CW QSO
> everyday in 2005. If you want to check out some of who I worked (and
> there was a goodly bit of DX mixed in) then please check out:
> http://www.qsl.net/w2lj/index%20page%209.html
>
> My antennas are not much more substantial (if any) than yours. I have a
> G5RV at 25 feet and a Butternut HF9V vertical which is ground mounted in
> the backyard. To me it seems that if you don't spend too much time
> concentrating on what you think are deficiencies; but go out with the
> aim to just have fun, then you will be amazed at what you can accomplish!
>
> 73 de Larry W2LJ
> K1# 1647, K2# 4090
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Kevin Shaw

RE: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

I've been playing around with EZNEC trying to come up with a DX antenna that
will work at my QTH. The vertical dipole seems to have a fantastic pattern
for DX with low takeoff angles. I may be able to hang a vertical wire dipole
in one of my trees and have it nearly invisible. Anyone have experience with
vertical dipoles that they could share?

Thanks,

Kevin
N8IQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tony Morgan
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:39 PM
To: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?

K9QRG ON 5/12?
Just checking :>)

Tony W7GO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Makoski W2LJ" <[hidden email]>
To: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Stephen W. Kercel

RE: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

Kevin:

I think vertical dipoles are wonderful. I have used them on a heavily
wooded lot with great success on both 20 and 30 meters. The higher
you can get them off the ground the better.

It is very desirable to be sure the feedline comes off reasonably
perpendicular to the antenna for a quarter wavelength or so.

Another effective trick (especially for 80 or 40) is an inverted L
fed with coax at the corner. Its almost as good as a vertical dipole.
Again, it is very desirable to be sure the feedline comes off
reasonably perpendicular to both legs of the antenna for a quarter
wavelength or so.

However, don't be too enchanted by the low angle pattern, it is also
a bit lossy. If you overlay your EZNEC vertical dipole elevation
pattern with the EZNEC broadside elevation pattern of a straight
dipole at say 5/8 wavelength elevation, you'll see that although the
vertical concentrates its energy at low angles, the actual dBi values
are not that much better than the horizontal.

W4RNL has shown that putting a very elaborate ground screen under
your vertical dipole gets you virtually no advantage. The losses are
actually from ground losses a few thousand feet from the antenna. For
that reason, if you're right on a seashore, you'll get spectacular
results in the seaward direction. (This is the Desert Island effect.)
I'm located near the coast of Maine, about 4 miles inland; the
Desert Island Effect does not help me much.

I have both a 20 m vertical dipole (center about 20 feet off the
ground) and a 20 m horizontal dipole about 45 feet up. Which one does
better depends on propagation conditions. I have worked lots of South
Pacific QRP with the vertical.

73

Steve
AA4AK

At 11:20 PM 1/11/2006, Kevin Shaw wrote:

>I've been playing around with EZNEC trying to come up with a DX antenna that
>will work at my QTH. The vertical dipole seems to have a fantastic pattern
>for DX with low takeoff angles. I may be able to hang a vertical wire dipole
>in one of my trees and have it nearly invisible. Anyone have experience with
>vertical dipoles that they could share?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Kevin
>N8IQ
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [hidden email]
>[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tony Morgan
>Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:39 PM
>To: Elecraft
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?
>
>K9QRG ON 5/12?
>Just checking :>)
>
>Tony W7GO
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Larry Makoski W2LJ" <[hidden email]>
>To: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
>Cc: <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?
>
>
> > Darwin, Keith wrote:
> >
> >>K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
> >>sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
> >>(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
> >>but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.
> >>
> >>How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
> >>current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
> >>simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?
> >>
> >>- Keith KD1E -
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>
> >>
> > Keith,
> >
> > Fear not fellow Elecrafter! We QRPers laugh at the sunspot minimum!
> > Sunspots ...... who needs 'em?
> >
> > I know, actually we all do. But to be serious .... as bad as band
> > conditions were in 2005, I managed to make at least one QRP CW QSO
> > everyday in 2005. If you want to check out some of who I worked (and
> > there was a goodly bit of DX mixed in) then please check out:
> > http://www.qsl.net/w2lj/index%20page%209.html
> >
> > My antennas are not much more substantial (if any) than yours. I have a
> > G5RV at 25 feet and a Butternut HF9V vertical which is ground mounted in
> > the backyard. To me it seems that if you don't spend too much time
> > concentrating on what you think are deficiencies; but go out with the
> > aim to just have fun, then you will be amazed at what you can accomplish!
> >
> > 73 de Larry W2LJ
> > K1# 1647, K2# 4090
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Post to: [hidden email]
>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

N8LP

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

A related antenna with a couple dB gain is a "half-square". It's like
half of a bobtail curtain, or two inverted L's connected at the ends of
the horizontal parts (1/2 wave on top, 1/4 wave on the two vertical
parts). It has a figure 8 broadside pattern, and is easily fed at one of
the upper corners with coax.

Larry N8LP

Stephen W. Kercel wrote:

> Kevin:
>
> I think vertical dipoles are wonderful. I have used them on a heavily
> wooded lot with great success on both 20 and 30 meters. The higher you
> can get them off the ground the better.
>
> It is very desirable to be sure the feedline comes off reasonably
> perpendicular to the antenna for a quarter wavelength or so.
>
> Another effective trick (especially for 80 or 40) is an inverted L fed
> with coax at the corner. Its almost as good as a vertical dipole.
> Again, it is very desirable to be sure the feedline comes off
> reasonably perpendicular to both legs of the antenna for a quarter
> wavelength or so.
>
> However, don't be too enchanted by the low angle pattern, it is also a
> bit lossy. If you overlay your EZNEC vertical dipole elevation pattern
> with the EZNEC broadside elevation pattern of a straight dipole at say
> 5/8 wavelength elevation, you'll see that although the vertical
> concentrates its energy at low angles, the actual dBi values are not
> that much better than the horizontal.
>
> W4RNL has shown that putting a very elaborate ground screen under your
> vertical dipole gets you virtually no advantage. The losses are
> actually from ground losses a few thousand feet from the antenna. For
> that reason, if you're right on a seashore, you'll get spectacular
> results in the seaward direction. (This is the Desert Island effect.)
> I'm located near the coast of Maine, about 4 miles inland; the Desert
> Island Effect does not help me much.
>
> I have both a 20 m vertical dipole (center about 20 feet off the
> ground) and a 20 m horizontal dipole about 45 feet up. Which one does
> better depends on propagation conditions. I have worked lots of South
> Pacific QRP with the vertical.
>
> 73
>
> Steve
> AA4AK
>
>
> At 11:20 PM 1/11/2006, Kevin Shaw wrote:
>
>> I've been playing around with EZNEC trying to come up with a DX
>> antenna that
>> will work at my QTH. The vertical dipole seems to have a fantastic
>> pattern
>> for DX with low takeoff angles. I may be able to hang a vertical wire
>> dipole
>> in one of my trees and have it nearly invisible. Anyone have
>> experience with
>> vertical dipoles that they could share?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kevin
>> N8IQ
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tony Morgan
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:39 PM
>> To: Elecraft
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?
>>
>> K9QRG ON 5/12?
>> Just checking :>)
>>
>> Tony W7GO
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Larry Makoski W2LJ" <[hidden email]>
>> To: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:54 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?
>>
>>
>> > Darwin, Keith wrote:
>> >
>> >>K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
>> >>sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot
>> vertical
>> >>(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25
>> feet
>> >>but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.
>> >>
>> >>How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be
>> under
>> >>current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
>> >>simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?
>> >>
>> >>- Keith KD1E -
>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Keith,
>> >
>> > Fear not fellow Elecrafter! We QRPers laugh at the sunspot minimum!
>> > Sunspots ...... who needs 'em?
>> >
>> > I know, actually we all do. But to be serious .... as bad as band
>> > conditions were in 2005, I managed to make at least one QRP CW QSO
>> > everyday in 2005. If you want to check out some of who I worked (and
>> > there was a goodly bit of DX mixed in) then please check out:
>> > http://www.qsl.net/w2lj/index%20page%209.html
>> >
>> > My antennas are not much more substantial (if any) than yours. I
>> have a
>> > G5RV at 25 feet and a Butternut HF9V vertical which is ground
>> mounted in
>> > the backyard. To me it seems that if you don't spend too much time
>> > concentrating on what you think are deficiencies; but go out with the
>> > aim to just have fun, then you will be amazed at what you can
>> accomplish!
>> >
>> > 73 de Larry W2LJ
>> > K1# 1647, K2# 4090
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Elecraft mailing list
>> > Post to: [hidden email]
>> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> >
>> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
>

Stephen W. Kercel

Re: QRP viability during solar cycle min?

Larry:

I've never tried that. Maybe I should.

73,

SteveAt 12:47 AM 1/12/2006, Larry Phipps wrote:

>A related antenna with a couple dB gain is a "half-square". It's
>like half of a bobtail curtain, or two inverted L's connected at the
>ends of the horizontal parts (1/2 wave on top, 1/4 wave on the two
>vertical parts). It has a figure 8 broadside pattern, and is easily
>fed at one of the upper corners with coax.
>
>Larry N8LP
>
>
>
>Stephen W. Kercel wrote:
>
>>Kevin:
>>
>>I think vertical dipoles are wonderful. I have used them on a
>>heavily wooded lot with great success on both 20 and 30 meters. The
>>higher you can get them off the ground the better.
>>
>>It is very desirable to be sure the feedline comes off reasonably
>>perpendicular to the antenna for a quarter wavelength or so.
>>
>>Another effective trick (especially for 80 or 40) is an inverted L
>>fed with coax at the corner. Its almost as good as a vertical
>>dipole. Again, it is very desirable to be sure the feedline comes
>>off reasonably perpendicular to both legs of the antenna for a
>>quarter wavelength or so.
>>
>>However, don't be too enchanted by the low angle pattern, it is
>>also a bit lossy. If you overlay your EZNEC vertical dipole
>>elevation pattern with the EZNEC broadside elevation pattern of a
>>straight dipole at say 5/8 wavelength elevation, you'll see that
>>although the vertical concentrates its energy at low angles, the
>>actual dBi values are not that much better than the horizontal.
>>
>>W4RNL has shown that putting a very elaborate ground screen under
>>your vertical dipole gets you virtually no advantage. The losses
>>are actually from ground losses a few thousand feet from the
>>antenna. For that reason, if you're right on a seashore, you'll get
>>spectacular results in the seaward direction. (This is the Desert
>>Island effect.) I'm located near the coast of Maine, about 4 miles
>>inland; the Desert Island Effect does not help me much.
>>
>>I have both a 20 m vertical dipole (center about 20 feet off the
>>ground) and a 20 m horizontal dipole about 45 feet up. Which one
>>does better depends on propagation conditions. I have worked lots
>>of South Pacific QRP with the vertical.
>>
>>73
>>
>>Steve
>>AA4AK
>>
>>
>>At 11:20 PM 1/11/2006, Kevin Shaw wrote:
>>
>>>I've been playing around with EZNEC trying to come up with a DX antenna that
>>>will work at my QTH. The vertical dipole seems to have a fantastic pattern
>>>for DX with low takeoff angles. I may be able to hang a vertical wire dipole
>>>in one of my trees and have it nearly invisible. Anyone have experience with
>>>vertical dipoles that they could share?
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>
>>>Kevin
>>>N8IQ
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: [hidden email]
>>>[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tony Morgan
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 8:39 PM
>>>To: Elecraft
>>>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?
>>>
>>>K9QRG ON 5/12?
>>>Just checking :>)
>>>
>>>Tony W7GO
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Larry Makoski W2LJ" <[hidden email]>
>>>To: "Darwin, Keith" <[hidden email]>
>>>Cc: <[hidden email]>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:54 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRP viability during solar cycle min?
>>>
>>>
>>> > Darwin, Keith wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>K1 or K2. Hmmm, the debate continues. But wait, we're approaching a
>>> >>sunspot min. My antennas are pretty limited. I have a 28 foot vertical
>>> >>(fed with a tuner near the base) for 40 thru 15 and a dipole at 25 feet
>>> >>but that is about it. No towers, no high wires, no yagis.
>>> >>
>>> >>How limiting will 5 or 10 watts (even with that Elecraft Mojo) be under
>>> >>current conditions? Are we entering into conditions where QRP with
>>> >>simple antennas will become rather frustrating? Is it K2/100 time?
>>> >>
>>> >>- Keith KD1E -
>>> >>_______________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> > Keith,
>>> >
>>> > Fear not fellow Elecrafter! We QRPers laugh at the sunspot minimum!
>>> > Sunspots ...... who needs 'em?
>>> >
>>> > I know, actually we all do. But to be serious .... as bad as band
>>> > conditions were in 2005, I managed to make at least one QRP CW QSO
>>> > everyday in 2005. If you want to check out some of who I worked (and
>>> > there was a goodly bit of DX mixed in) then please check out:
>>> > http://www.qsl.net/w2lj/index%20page%209.html
>>> >
>>> > My antennas are not much more substantial (if any) than yours. I have a
>>> > G5RV at 25 feet and a Butternut HF9V vertical which is ground mounted in
>>> > the backyard. To me it seems that if you don't spend too much time
>>> > concentrating on what you think are deficiencies; but go out with the
>>> > aim to just have fun, then you will be amazed at what you can accomplish!
>>> >
>>> > 73 de Larry W2LJ
>>> > K1# 1647, K2# 4090
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Elecraft mailing list
>>> > Post to: [hidden email]
>>> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> >
>>> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Elecraft mailing list
>>>Post to: [hidden email]
>>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>
>>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Elecraft mailing list
>>>Post to: [hidden email]
>>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>
>>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Post to: [hidden email]
>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>>