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1234

Phil Wheeler-2

Re: OT Them

Lucky "They" didn't get you, Fred. That's a movie
I enjoy watching from time-to-time.

Phil w7ox (born in Hollywood and now in Torrance
after growing up in the NW)

On 4/30/14, 3:42 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> The tunnel where the ants nest was in the movie
> was about 2 mi from where I grew up. They were
> storm drains into the Los Angeles River, we used
> to play in them.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 4/30/2014 2:27 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>> The phrase "Over and Out" was a key part of the
>> brief training lessons for the young female
>> scientist near the beginning of the movie
>> "Them!". She was being taught proper protocol
>> of using the radio while searching for
>> giant ants in a helicopter.
>>
>> K7PEH

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: QRQ CW

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Fred,

I think the answer to your question of when to turn it on has a personal
perception element to it.
We have heard from some who leave it turned on all the time, and some
others have volunteered that it improves the keying above 35 wpm while
others have said above 30.

As I recall, QRQ mode is now automatically turned off if you use
SPLIT/RIT/XIT - if that does not happen for you, update the firmware.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/30/2014 6:46 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> On 4/30/2014 11:43 AM, Chester Alderman wrote:
>> The International Q signal for QRQ is "Shall I send faster?" and does
>> not
>> mention any specific speed.
>
> Technically, the "answer" form of QRQ is "QRQ nn" where nn is a
> desired speed in WPM.
>
> All this QRQ stuff has me curious now. At what sending speed would I
> want to engage QRQ mode on my K3? I think I'd have to give up
> RIT/XIT, and I think there was something else too. I never use XIT
> but I do use RIT when I'm CQ'ing.
>

Phil Kane-2

Re: QRQ CW

In reply to this post by K3GGN

On 4/30/2014 12:10 PM, Kevin wrote:

> The made up "radio jargon" which bothers me the most is "over and
> out". Which do you mean: over or out? They mean very different
> things and CANNOT be used simultaneously.

They certainly can. "Over" means "turning it back to you for your
reply". "Out" means "No further transmissions from me." In ham jargon
it's "Back to you for your final and I'm clear."

Over and out. 73 de K2ASP

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kevinr@coho.net

Re: QRQ CW

During a MARS net the NCS says "out" to a check in when they are done
talking to that check in . Then they immediately continue with the next
QNI. "Out" means they are done talking to that person only and for that
instant only. It does not mean that check in is allowed to leave the
net. "Over" means back to the other person for continued comms.

If you used "over and out" during a military net no one would understand
which you mean.
Kevin. KD5ONS/NNN0JWI

On 4/30/2014 5:01 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:

> Agreed, this is correct usage. It is shorthand for "OVER to you and OUT after your transmission", which saves another transmission just for "ID, out".
>
> You might hear this at a busy harbor, where control is working with many commercial ships and the operators are comfortable with it. It allows control to move on to the next vessel.
>
> I would not use this on an amateur radio net without a training session that established this bit of advance proword usage.
>
> Over,
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
>
> On Apr 30, 2014, at 4:50 PM, Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 4/30/2014 12:10 PM, Kevin wrote:
>>
>>> The made up "radio jargon" which bothers me the most is "over and
>>> out". Which do you mean: over or out? They mean very different
>>> things and CANNOT be used simultaneously.
>> They certainly can. "Over" means "turning it back to you for your
>> reply". "Out" means "No further transmissions from me." In ham jargon
>> it's "Back to you for your final and I'm clear."
>>
>> Over and out. 73 de K2ASP
>>
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Phil Kane-2

Re: QRQ CW

In reply to this post by Barry

On 4/30/2014 6:35 AM, Barry wrote:

> Regarding the anti-contesters, to each their own. What grates on my nerves
> is hearing the newer hams start every transmission on 2m FM with "Copy
> that," the VHF version of "please copy..." :-)

In traffic handling, even on VHF, "Please copy" still means "please copy..."

"Copy that" as a preamble in a conversation came to us via CB, and it's
really the phone equivalent of "R" in CW meaning "I have copied and
understood what you sent".
-- --
73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Gary K9GS

Re: QRQ CW

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Can we drop the contest bashing? This is not the forum for it anyway.
Besides, per the list owner, WA6HHQ from only yesterday:

In general, please do not argue on the Elecraft list pro/con about various
emission modes like ESSB, CW vs no-code, QRP vs QRO, Contesting etc and their
appropriateness to amateur radio. This list is not a forum for amateur radio
policy. Also, impolite discussion is in direct violation of the list guidelines.

On 4/30/2014 11:18 AM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:

>
>
> I have to fully agree, personally I have never seen the point of contesting, it all seems pretty pointless.
>
> In nearly every contest, I see the same thing contesters with little regard for other Amateurs.
>
> I like to run JT65 and SSTV and on on the CW and RTTY contest the JT65 Frequencies are Full
> with CW or RTTY and on the SSB contest the SSTV frequencies are full SSB voice contesters.
>
> And the typical response from contesters are "Use the WARC Bands".
>
> I guess some must have a need to do something to make themselves feel special.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: AG0N-3055 <[hidden email]>
> To: Kevin Stover <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 8:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRQ CW
>
>
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2014 06:49:18 -0500, Kevin Stover wrote:
>
>> Maybe if the big contest guns did the same we wouldn't have the visceral
>> anti-contest attitudes displayed, and get more people involved.
> You're talking to one of the anti crowd. It has nothing to do with
> speed. It has to do with the fact that most of us don't like the chaos
> of contests, and the fact that for some reason, people seem to think
> there needs to be some sort of contest every damned weekend. Boy do I
> relish the old days where there were less than a hand full of contests a
> year. The two main ones were Field Day and Sweepstakes. If you were
> into DX, there was the annual DX contest.
>
> Contests were something SPECIAL those days, and even I took part in
> them. They were fun because they were special. These days, there's
> nothing special at all about them. You can't even get a meaningful
> signal report now. Your 5NN, but would you repeat because you're too
> weak to copy. They are just another boring noisy weekend when you can't
> enjoy the bands.
>
> Gary

--

73,

Gary K9GS

Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org

************************************************

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mcduffie

Re: Contest QRM

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On Wed, 30 Apr 2014 09:16:18 -0700, Jim Brown wrote:

> Contests always avoid the WARC bands, and most contests are a single
> mode -- CW or SSB or RTTY -- leaving lots of space for those who don't
> enjoy them.

That's not bad, unless it is the weekend for your favorite mode, OR the other
mode spills out of its normal area of the band and takes over everything in
sight. That happens all the time. And I don't care what you or anyone else
says, I know and regularly hear, people just pile into areas of the band where
there is other activity, regular nets, etc. Contest organizers should designate
a portion of the band where they will accept valid contacts, and disallow the
rest.

I know, just my opinion, but I assure you, I'm not alone. This whole thing is
off topic for the list anyway.

Gary
--
Web: http://ag0n.net
NodeOp Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
Node 3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
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EricJ-2

Re: OT Them

In reply to this post by James Doty

I saw "Them" when I was 12 at a matinee at Camp Stoneman where my dad
was stationed during the Korean War. Scariest movie I had ever seen. I
rented it from Netflix a couple years ago just for fun. When I first
heard the sounds of the ants, the hair on the back of my neck stood on
end. I almost shut the damn DVD off right there. That movie did some
damage to 12 year olds in the 50s.

Eric
KE6US

On 4/30/2014 3:29 PM, James Doty wrote:

> I love that movie! It will always be one of my favorite Cold War era
> scifis.
>
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kevinr@coho.net

Re: QRQ CW

In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2

Here is my source for "over" and "out" procedures as well as definitions
of same.

http://www.navymars.org/ntp8/NTP%208%20D%20Final.pdf

Page 7-1 is the beginning of the radiotelephone procedures.

My initial comment about "over" and "out" was describing military
procedure not whatever flavor of the day the amateur community is using.

While training ECOM students for ARES I used this manual as well as the
ARECC material. Then my students went out into the world and did
whatever they felt like. Being a teacher is often like the poor snail
climbing the side of a well. Two steps forward ....
Kevin. KD5ONS
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Carl Yaffey

Re: QRQ CW

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Speaking of jargon, my pet peeve: using 73’s or 88’s instead of 73 or 88.

On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:27 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The phrase "Over and Out" was a key part of the brief training lessons for the young female scientist near the beginning of the movie "Them!". She was being taught proper protocol of using the radio while searching for
> giant ants in a helicopter.
>
> K7PEH
>

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Contest QRM

In reply to this post by mcduffie

On 4/30/2014 5:40 PM, AG0N-3055 wrote:
> That's not bad, unless it is the weekend for your favorite mode, OR the other
> mode spills out of its normal area of the band and takes over everything in
> sight. That happens all the time. And I don't care what you or anyone else
> says, I know and regularly hear, people just pile into areas of the band where
> there is other activity, regular nets, etc. Contest organizers should designate
> a portion of the band where they will accept valid contacts, and disallow the
> rest.

Gary,

The thing you seem to be missing is that the big contests attract
several thousand participants, and propagation drives those participants
into bands that are open. It is rare that more than three bands are open
at the same time, and often there are only two. Indeed, during sunspot
minimums, there's often only 20M during the day. With two bands
available, that means that there are a thousand or more stations trying
to fit into each sub-band,in addition to the 50-100 non-contesters who
are active on that band. The 20M phone band is 200 kHz wide, and a very
clean rig occupies about 3 kHz. That means there's room on 20M SSB for
about 70 stations to call CQ, and for 83 on 15M SSB. Things are a lot
better on CW and RTTY, where clean signals burn 300 Hz and dirty ones
three times that. That means 500 stations can fit into 20M CW, nearly
700 into 15 CW.

We all have the same right to use those frequencies, on a first come,
first served basis. Contesters should not be chasing QSOs off a
frequency, and those wanting to start a QSO must realize that if
someone's there first, it's their frequency. But I will not QSY because
someone 10 kHz down the band from me hears me on his el cheapo rig.

73, Jim K9YC

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Toby Pennington

Re: QRQ CW

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

AND those functions don't work if you have QRQ turned on. Toby K4NH

On 4/30/2014 6:58 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Fred,
>
> I think the answer to your question of when to turn it on has a
> personal perception element to it.
> We have heard from some who leave it turned on all the time, and some
> others have volunteered that it improves the keying above 35 wpm while
> others have said above 30.
>
> As I recall, QRQ mode is now automatically turned off if you use
> SPLIT/RIT/XIT - if that does not happen for you, update the firmware.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 4/30/2014 6:46 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> On 4/30/2014 11:43 AM, Chester Alderman wrote:
>>> The International Q signal for QRQ is "Shall I send faster?" and
>>> does not
>>> mention any specific speed.
>>
>> Technically, the "answer" form of QRQ is "QRQ nn" where nn is a
>> desired speed in WPM.
>>
>> All this QRQ stuff has me curious now. At what sending speed would I
>> want to engage QRQ mode on my K3? I think I'd have to give up
>> RIT/XIT, and I think there was something else too. I never use XIT
>> but I do use RIT when I'm CQ'ing.
>>
>
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Dave-7

Re: QRQ CW

Speaking of contesting and QRQ . . . one of the things I have wondered
about is what is the correlation between contest score and CW speed?
Has anyone ever noted speed and then compared to score?

There are obviously a lot of pitfalls to this - antenna, location, and
op being the main ones. But I suspect that the winners do not
regularly run high speed. Too much noise, too many ops who can't copy
high speed, etc. And if you want the weak, rare mults to pull you out
you need to be sure they can copy your dits as dits and not confuse
them with noise bursts.

As for the chap who commented he routinely ran 40+ wpm, well, I guess
he is one of those I regularly skip over when I'm working S&P.

73 de dave
ab9ca/4

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Jim Brown-10

Re: QRQ CW

On 5/1/2014 9:15 AM, dave wrote:
> But I suspect that the winners do not regularly run high speed.

N6TV won CW Sweepstakes this year using K3s at the W7RN super-station.
Bob usually steams along at 30-34 WPM.

73, Jim K9YC
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alsopb

Re: QRQ CW

I wonder where Dave got this idea from. I'd like to suggest it is
wishful thinking.

The contest winners clearly are superior ops and will use whatever speed
benefits them. Likely higher speeds early in the contest and lower
speeds later. Not a fixed speed throughout.

I don't know why there is such an aversion to admitting that many people
can copy more than 40 WPM. There is no law of physics or biology
preventing it. After all people routinely talk and 300 WPM. If one can
decode those utterances at 300 WPM why not simple dot/dash CW at 40 WPM?

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 5/1/2014 16:22, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 5/1/2014 9:15 AM, dave wrote:
>> But I suspect that the winners do not regularly run high speed.
>
> N6TV won CW Sweepstakes this year using K3s at the W7RN super-station.
> Bob usually steams along at 30-34 WPM.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Alan Bloom

Re: QRQ CW

On 05/01/2014 09:41 AM, Brian Alsop wrote:
> I wonder where Dave got this idea from. I'd like to suggest it is
> wishful thinking.

> On 5/1/2014 16:22, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On 5/1/2014 9:15 AM, dave wrote:
>>> But I suspect that the winners do not regularly run high speed.

I agree with Dave that it can be counterproductive to run high speed in
a contest. You lose too many contacts with stations who can't copy that
fast.

I used to be able to copy 50 wpm pretty consistently in my head and I
have a 40 wpm W1AW code proficiency certificate. But it makes no sense
to go that fast in a contest unless you are content to work only other
QRQ stations.

I think around 30 wpm or so is reasonable. Even operators who can't go
quite that fast can probably get your callsign after listening for a
minute. Then when they call you at 18 or 20 wpm you can slow down to
work them and then speed up again.

Years ago Chuck W1WPR, the chief op at W1AW, was listening to a QSO on
40 meters where they were motoring along at 70 wpm or so (obviously
using keyboards to send). So Chuck recorded them on the reel-to-reel
tape recorder and later played it back at half speed to see what they
were saying. He said that during the entire QSO neither one of them
ever got the other station's call correct. :=)

Alan N1AL
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Phil Hystad-3

Re: QRQ CW

> He said that during the entire QSO neither one of them ever got the other station's call correct. :=)

Now, that made me laugh.

-phil, K7PEH

On May 1, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Alan Bloom <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05/01/2014 09:41 AM, Brian Alsop wrote:
>> I wonder where Dave got this idea from. I'd like to suggest it is
>> wishful thinking.
>
>> On 5/1/2014 16:22, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> On 5/1/2014 9:15 AM, dave wrote:
>>>> But I suspect that the winners do not regularly run high speed.
>
> I agree with Dave that it can be counterproductive to run high speed in a contest. You lose too many contacts with stations who can't copy that fast.
>
> I used to be able to copy 50 wpm pretty consistently in my head and I have a 40 wpm W1AW code proficiency certificate. But it makes no sense to go that fast in a contest unless you are content to work only other QRQ stations.
>
> I think around 30 wpm or so is reasonable. Even operators who can't go quite that fast can probably get your callsign after listening for a minute. Then when they call you at 18 or 20 wpm you can slow down to work them and then speed up again.
>
> Years ago Chuck W1WPR, the chief op at W1AW, was listening to a QSO on 40 meters where they were motoring along at 70 wpm or so (obviously using keyboards to send). So Chuck recorded them on the reel-to-reel tape recorder and later played it back at half speed to see what they were saying. He said that during the entire QSO neither one of them ever got the other station's call correct. :=)
>
> Alan N1AL
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: QRQ CW

Administrator

[End of Thread]

Folks - We are well past the max posting limit for a single topic. Let's end
this thread now.

In general, if you see a huge number of posts on a topic, especially one that
has drifted OT, do not post. While we do closely limit posting topics, we'd
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Remember that most readers of this list may not be interested in additional
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73,

Eric
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elecraft.com

On 5/1/2014 10:10 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>> He said that during the entire QSO neither one of them ever got the other station's call correct. :=)
>
> Now, that made me laugh.
>
> -phil, K7PEH
>
>

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: QRQ CW

Administrator

One edit to my post. We do not directly limit posting topics. (I left off the
"not" in my original posting.)

I meant to type:
While we do not closely limit posting topics, we'd like to see the majority of
the posting traffic on the Elecraft list directly Elecraft related.

(That is now corrected in the copy of my posting below.)

73
Eric
elecraft.com
-----
On 5/1/2014 11:09 AM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:

> [End of Thread]
>
> Folks - We are well past the max posting limit for a single topic. Let's end
> this thread now.
>
> In general, if you see a huge number of posts on a topic, especially one that
> has drifted OT, do not post.
>
> Remember that most readers of this list may not be interested in additional
> comments on a heavy traffic topic, and they are overloaded by the number of
> emails on it.
>
> 73,
>
> Eric
> (Your list moderator when I can get away from my day job.. )
> elecraft.com

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: QRQ CW

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Back when I worked at the "old" Microlog Corp in Gaithersburg MD in the late
70's, we found that a lot of rigs couldn't be keyed much faster than about
50 WPM. Key click filtering etc., made mush of the faster CW. A keyed
string of dots looked like the output of a half wave rectifier ! To get
around this limitation, in order to run >100 WPM CW, we'd revert to AFSK
keying, copying the Mark frequency only.....worked like a proverbial charm.
It was like having our own private encryption system as nothing but a
computer assisted copy system could decipher it. We never really asked if
it was legal though.

And, to my knowledge, there was and still is NOTHING out there as good as
the decoding algorithms those programmers wrote. (The main one just
happened to be the president of the company.) I tested every piece of
competitive equipment I could get my hands on to prove this point. Microlog
was the absolute king-of-the-hill for CW copy, hand sent, bug sent or
otherwise. In order to fool it, you had to purposely send "rotten" code.

73, Charlie k3ICH

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Hystad" <[hidden email]>
To: "Alan Bloom" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] QRQ CW

>> He said that during the entire QSO neither one of them ever got the
>> other station's call correct. :=)
>
>
> Now, that made me laugh.
>
> -phil, K7PEH
>
>
>
> On May 1, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Alan Bloom <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 05/01/2014 09:41 AM, Brian Alsop wrote:
>>> I wonder where Dave got this idea from. I'd like to suggest it is
>>> wishful thinking.
>>
>>> On 5/1/2014 16:22, Jim Brown wrote:
>>>> On 5/1/2014 9:15 AM, dave wrote:
>>>>> But I suspect that the winners do not regularly run high speed.
>>
>> I agree with Dave that it can be counterproductive to run high speed in a
>> contest. You lose too many contacts with stations who can't copy that
>> fast.
>>
>> I used to be able to copy 50 wpm pretty consistently in my head and I
>> have a 40 wpm W1AW code proficiency certificate. But it makes no sense
>> to go that fast in a contest unless you are content to work only other
>> QRQ stations.
>>
>> I think around 30 wpm or so is reasonable. Even operators who can't go
>> quite that fast can probably get your callsign after listening for a
>> minute. Then when they call you at 18 or 20 wpm you can slow down to
>> work them and then speed up again.
>>
>> Years ago Chuck W1WPR, the chief op at W1AW, was listening to a QSO on 40
>> meters where they were motoring along at 70 wpm or so (obviously using
>> keyboards to send). So Chuck recorded them on the reel-to-reel tape
>> recorder and later played it back at half speed to see what they were
>> saying. He said that during the entire QSO neither one of them ever got
>> the other station's call correct. :=)
>>
>> Alan N1AL
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